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Bowsprit mods


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So the writing is on the wall for most of us, anyone buying a new spinnaker at this point is likely weighing the benefit of another symbol kite against making the change to a prod.

This can be done easily with a Selden kit, but they are klunky and come with tradeoffs, and are not cheap for what you get.  Ditto the Trogear, different tradeoffs again.

Every install is trading length, cost, moorage situation, and looks.  I'm interested to see what others have come up with?

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On my Schock 35 I couldn't fully commit so decided on an on- deck setup for proof of concept.  I had an old Melges 32 kite and got this aluminum setup welded at a local fishboat builder for $270.  Its a 3.5" thick walled pipe, with custom mounts.  It was retractable, and I rigged a bobstay as well as a purchase to extend it.  

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This on deck setup worked but extension was only 2.5'.  We were blazing fast in breeze but surprisingly suffered in lighter air.  Spinnaker cut may have had something to do with it.  It was ugly and interfered with the Genoa foot, and anchor locker access.

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So after a couple losses in light air downwind I put a pole back on the boat, overlength, with A kites.  This works great, boat is quick.  However to jibe you want a sprit to hold the kite out in front of the rig. A sprit also gives you options at leeward mark or in transition zones.  So I built a short fixed sprit.  

This is actually a quick splashed mold off the bow, glued together using 4 pieces of carbon Fibre hockey stick shafts (from broken sticks) and wrapped in epoxy and 'glass.  It works pretty good and less than 2' so minimal impact to moorage.

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Luckily the tax on boat size in our area , doesn't include removable items, so a bowsprit even if it takes several hours to remove it, is free. Moorings however....

Don't have a bowsprit, on my boat, though it was considered, the boat does have a jib club, which extends forward of the hull, the pivot is at the bow and the leading edge of the club has a line leading to the mast, as a jib vang.

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We recently made the change and are really happy with it. Not only is the performance great, it allows us to sail the boat with two less crew. We did a Selden ring backed with a big G10 plate and a custom carbon tapered pole made by Forte. Doing the taper allowed us to easily slide it out of the ring and remove the pole.  We ran a pretty thick sidewall on the carbon tube to ensure that we didn’t need a bobstay. 

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1 minute ago, Irrational 14 said:

Farr 30 Sprit Kit designed by Farr. Completely changed the boat to new levels of performance downwind. Removes with 2 bolts.

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Rating hit? We decided to go with a 10% longer pole and a stubby for better flow on the kite, and easier inside gybes, AND the ORR penalty for longer and larger kites is pretty significant. Besides, our boat digs a big hole, it doesn’t plane…

 

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You bet your ass there was a healthy rating hit (SoCal PHRF). Even so, it's still wins, so it's worth it.

The boat carries 2 certs. Only Sprit and Combo Sprit with Pole option for the dead down-winders.

This boat pops up on a plane now quicker/easier/funner. New life for an old boat.

Still nothing better than a centerline retractable sprit IMO, but for this Farr, it was the best option. Lots of reinforcing to make it all work though.

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2 hours ago, Irrational 14 said:

You bet your ass there was a healthy rating hit (SoCal PHRF). Even so, it's still wins, so it's worth it.

The boat carries 2 certs. Only Sprit and Combo Sprit with Pole option for the dead down-winders.

This boat pops up on a plane now quicker/easier/funner. New life for an old boat.

Still nothing better than a centerline retractable sprit IMO, but for this Farr, it was the best option. Lots of reinforcing to make it all work though.

Is that bobstay adjustable inside or does it just terminate?

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55 minutes ago, SEC16518 said:

Is that bobstay adjustable inside or does it just terminate?

Bobstay lashes to a preset tension every time at install. This tension prebends the sprit a tad so it's bombproof for whatever gets thrown it.

We found anything internal including tackline/s to be problematic since the sprit gets installed and removed every time the boat sails.

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2 minutes ago, Schnick said:

I'm taking from this that hardly anyone has figured out how to do a long sprit that doesn't incur a 5' moorage penalty, unless they just do the full J/boat installation?

Like I said, nothing better than a retractable sprit on center line. But this one is designed that way.

If I had to do a conversion on a larger heavier boat that will never plane, a fixed stubby is the answer. Pole back and go deep.

 

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LOKI Bow.jpg

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4 hours ago, Schnick said:

Raz'r is that an IMX38 or something?  What is that stubby sprit made from?

Looks like you arrived at much the same solution I did for the Schock, which makes sense, similar proportions.

Andrew’s 43. Early IMS boat. Carbon over a form. G10 insert at the eye location.

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On 12/28/2021 at 3:06 PM, Schnick said:

On my Schock 35 I couldn't fully commit so decided on an on- deck setup for proof of concept.  I had an old Melges 32 kite and got this aluminum setup welded at a local fishboat builder for $270.  Its a 3.5" thick walled pipe, with custom mounts.  It was retractable, and I rigged a bobstay as well as a purchase to extend it.  

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I am curious why you didn't use the anchor roller.  Wouldn't it have been possible to weld on a rectangle or box section on the bottom of the pole that would have dropped into the channel for the anchor roller and you could have just pinned it to the anchor roller?  It could have been welded at an angle to the pole just as you welded your ring to the plate on the deck

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2 hours ago, bstrdsonofbtl said:

You get credit for that sprit or is it the full 18"?

Turns out with the setback forestay on my boat it's exactly 18" to the outside of bow roller. Problem is the bow pulpit sticks out too far which will have to be mod'd somehow. I could mangle it w/a hacksaw but It's gotta' have a brace welded in first. 

How are those stantions you installed braced from folding backwards?

The sprit is shorter than my pole by about 2", so no additional penalty over the penalty-length pole.  I had much the same problem with pulpit, plus the long pole is hard to stow with a closed pulpit design.

 

The forward stanchions are composite and go through the deck, are epoxied to the inside of the hull in the anchor locker, and then aggressively tabbed in.  The whole crew can hike on the lower lifeline with minimal deflection, especially compared to any metal pulpit I've seen.

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2 hours ago, gkny said:

I am curious why you didn't use the anchor roller.  Wouldn't it have been possible to weld on a rectangle or box section on the bottom of the pole that would have dropped into the channel for the anchor roller and you could have just pinned it to the anchor roller?  It could have been welded at an angle to the pole just as you welded your ring to the plate on the deck

I wanted to have the sprit while cruising, so anchor in roller, sprit rigged, and the whole thing low enough to sheet in the jib upwind.  The subsequent version came along after I had cut the deck to make a proper rope locker, so couldn't deal with the pole on deck.

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On 12/30/2021 at 10:10 PM, Schnick said:

I'm taking from this that hardly anyone has figured out how to do a long sprit that doesn't incur a 5' moorage penalty, unless they just do the full J/boat installation?

Another approach is a sprit that rotates aft to nest along the sidedeck.  This one from the Paul Bieker Shilshole 27 is a very clean setup, with a bow pulpit built into the forward "bearing."  Something like this could probably be retrofitted on the right boat.  I see no reason it must be installed on centerline.

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First version was a 12’ wide plank with 2 aluminum fore tubes, 20 feet each for an isosceles triangle 18’ long mounted 6’ back from the bow, so an effective 12’ sprit that rotates and elevates. (up & down fuckers of course) The permanent wings were proof of concept and entertaining but obviously, only that. But I did single hand jibe a J105 chute with surprising ease once I got it all assembled. 
New version, which I’d call the first prototype, has extending tubes and windsurfer poles (not shone below). It rotates on a pin epoxy cast in foredeck, carbon tubes slide inside aluminum tubes, guys run like normal spinnaker to corner, cross the base and pull forward with 3:1 to the bow. Pull on the starboard guy and it rotates to starboard. It looks cool when you get the swing right and hit a sweet inside jibe with the huge fore triangle and you flop the kite through like your first live in lover putting on clean sheets. 

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The big benefit is that no struts have any bending moment. They’re all in compression like a mast (if you trim it right), so scale well, are light and cheap. Biggest hassle is sliding the tubes forward and joining them to the base quickly with no slop. 

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  • 1 month later...

Working what I think is about the 4th version of a sprit on the Schock.  This got assembled on the weekend.  The tube is about 2', but will act as a socket for a 4' carbon tube that I have.  The 4' piece will be removable.

 

Quite a bit of reinforcing still to come on this part.

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  • 2 weeks later...
  • 3 weeks later...
11 hours ago, Schnick said:

Hopefully last test fit...

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Hey Schnick,

Never noticed it before, but has your Schock 35 been modified to raise/flatten the forward cabintop/forward hatch area?  Sprit mod looking promising!

Crash

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The deck is stock almost everywhere.  I think because I changed the windows around and made the hatch white instead of black it shows that original bump in the cabintop more than some others.

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On 3/29/2022 at 11:44 AM, Schnick said:

The deck is stock almost everywhere.  I think because I changed the windows around and made the hatch white instead of black it shows that original bump in the cabintop more than some others.

That must be it.  I can’t believe having raced against Schock 35s I never noticed it.  I always assumed it was like the forward cabin on the Santana 30/30, just a little longer continuous slope down to deck.  Oh well, so much for my powers of observation!

Like the new sprit and mount!

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On 12/31/2021 at 9:12 AM, SEC16518 said:

Similar to my 1D35.....

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Similar to my Elliott 7.8 . Sprit was made from an old carbon spin pole , two bolts into the anchor well and a fibreglass tube above the waterline to take the bobstay . Have included a pic of someone else’s nose cone as reference to what the splash of the bow looked like before the prod was built around it .

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1 hour ago, Movable Ballast said:

I committed to the retractable sprit. About 5ft or 138% of J. 

MB ... nice mod.  How much of a rating hit did you take for the long sprit and what appears to be a much bigger kite in the pic?

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3 minutes ago, yoyo said:

 

MB ... nice mod.  How much of a rating hit did you take for the long sprit and what appears to be a much bigger kite in the pic?

the Schock rates 72/72/72 in SoCal. SoCal PHRF hit me -6/-9/-12 so 66/63/60. Certainly no gift but not too bad. Still have to sail well to win... 

 

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Good question yoyo.  I put a really long bowsprit on my J35 and went from 110sqm to 123sqm.  My IRC rating stayed the same as when the boat was setup with a pole. 
 

now I am sailing 15-20% higher than normal (S2) but with no real improvement in boat speed.  So this has got me thinking that if I get basically the same boat speed with the S2 and A2? that I should reduce the sail area to 116sqm, enjoy the rating drop while sailing the same boat speed?  I think the rating drop will compensate for the higher angles I have to sail? 

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I sail the exact same downwind angles with an A2 on a conventional (J+1') pole, as I did with a 2' bowsprit, up until aboat 17 knots TWS.  And the smaller kite must be slower.

I'm hoping the longer sprit (4') closes the gap In more breeze (more projection) and allows a faster bigger sail again.

The luff length increases almost 4' compared to the sail on the pole, girths are about 2' more.

 

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20 hours ago, yoyo said:

Thanks.. How much bigger did you go with the kite?  Looks way bigger than stock in the pic.

Went from 96s/M to 120. The boat is faster off the wind for sure, but you also have to carry that rating hit uphill too, where you are no faster... 

 

17 hours ago, longy said:

There is another S 35 in Oceanside with a retractable sprit. I don't know how long it is.

Yeah that's mine... 5ft

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3 hours ago, Schnick said:

I sail the exact same downwind angles with an A2 on a conventional (J+1') pole, as I did with a 2' bowsprit, up until aboat 17 knots TWS.  And the smaller kite must be slower.

I'm hoping the longer sprit (4') closes the gap In more breeze (more projection) and allows a faster bigger sail again.

The luff length increases almost 4' compared to the sail on the pole, girths are about 2' more.

 

We got our asses kicked (massive wipeouts) in the Islands race a few years ago with the A2 in 20+ too much sail. An A4 is in my future. The stern of the S35 doesn't have the stability (too round) to carry too much sail in a blow...   

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17 minutes ago, Movable Ballast said:

We got our asses kicked (massive wipeouts) in the Islands race a few years ago with the A2 in 20+ too much sail. An A4 is in my future. The stern of the S35 doesn't have the stability (too round) to carry too much sail in a blow...   

We rarely get much sea state so our margin before Wipeout is pretty good.

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5 minutes ago, Schnick said:

We rarely get much sea state so our margin before Wipeout is pretty good.

We literally tripped over the sailplan... The bow was only about a foot above the surface. She started to turn into a submarine and tripped over the bow and fell on her side. 

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I can believe that, we hit 14.3 with the whole bow under water a few years back - while bow team were washed back to aft of the shrouds.  It didn't end great.

 

I already got an A4, we're a bit light on reaching setups but should go downwind ok I hope.

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We raced a 100 miler this weekend - mostly downwind.  Boat is going to be fine at 66 I think.  Less nosey with the long sprit when the breeze is up.

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  • 3 weeks later...
On 4/12/2022 at 2:00 PM, Ex Machina said:

Similar to my Elliott 7.8 . Sprit was made from an old carbon spin pole , two bolts into the anchor well and a fibreglass tube above the waterline to take the bobstay . Have included a pic of someone else’s nose cone as reference to what the splash of the bow looked like before the prod was built around it .

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I wish we had gone this route for a friend's Farr 30, exactly the same kit as @Irrational 14 posted.  The fit to the bow was horrible.  Taking a splash off the bow would have been so much smoother.  

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