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Anyone ever sail a Freedom 40/40?


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Anyone ever sail a Freedom 40/40?

It is one of those unstayed carbon spar boats, but it is the later iteration with a fractional rigged headsail. Apparently they can fly spinnakers despite the freestanding rig.

I am just curious if anyone has any experience cruising one of these downwind. Did you use a spinnaker, or the "camberspar" jib or ???

https://sailboatdata.com/sailboat/freedom-4040

 

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13 minutes ago, eliboat said:

My dad chartered one once and hated it.  Wish I could be more helpful, but all I remember is that he thought it sailed like shit.   I always have my eyes open for cat ketch  Freedom 40’s though.  

I like the look of the cat ketches, but the newer ones like the 40/40 apparently sail much better.

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I chartered a 30 or 35 Freedom years ago.  Loved the ability to run deep downwind without chafing the main on shrouds.  Hated what the pocketed camber spar in the jib did to the headstay, but I guess it was more my problem than any flaw.  The biggest annoyance was trying to maneuver in a marina during a strong wind.  The mast with its windage so significant and so far forward made things extremely difficult getting into a crosswind slip.  Needed to have strong bow thruster I think…

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12 hours ago, mckenzie.keith said:

I am just curious if anyone has any experience cruising one of these downwind. Did you use a spinnaker, or the "camberspar" jib or ???

Can't answer your specific question but: an unstayed mast rig with a large mainsail is far more efficient and practical downwind than a marconi sloop. If you sail sloops, you are used to a small main, way oversheeted to keep if off the shrouds and minimize chafe and a very inefficient sail - not an issue on these boats. 

I did test sail a 28' Freedom with the camber spar, it seemed like the jib wasn't doing all that much. And when we got passed as though we were anchored by a Nonsuch 30 I gave up the idea. 

One final point: the 40/40 rig with the camber spar would take better to a spinnaker than the ketches. It is hard to get enough separation between the spinnaker and forward sail on the ketch, spinnaker tends to get blanketed. Even on my boat with a 10' carbon sprit it takes particular conditions to make it worthwhile (light wind broad reach). On the 40/40, proportions are more like a fractional sloop and you'd have much more separation. 

vgeFRzD.jpg

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I will say that my experience with the Freedom completely cemented my desire for a free standing cat rig on my   next boat  sail  boat...

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55 minutes ago, DDW said:

Can't answer your specific question but: an unstayed mast rig with a large mainsail is far more efficient and practical downwind than a marconi sloop. If you sail sloops, you are used to a small main, way oversheeted to keep if off the shrouds and minimize chafe and a very inefficient sail - not an issue on these boats. 

I did test sail a 28' Freedom with the camber spar, it seemed like the jib wasn't doing all that much. And when we got passed as though we were anchored by a Nonsuch 30 I gave up the idea. 

One final point: the 40/40 rig with the camber spar would take better to a spinnaker than the ketches. It is hard to get enough separation between the spinnaker and forward sail on the ketch, spinnaker tends to get blanketed. Even on my boat with a 10' carbon sprit it takes particular conditions to make it worthwhile (light wind broad reach). On the 40/40, proportions are more like a fractional sloop and you'd have much more separation. 

vgeFRzD.jpg

Is that a photo of your boat? I love the look of it! Also appreciate your thoughts on the original question.

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50 minutes ago, DDW said:

Yeah that's the boat. We were trying to keep everything flying in about 3 for pictures so sail trim isn't exactly right.

I am completely in awe of how much innovation and insight you have put into Anomaly. I’ve been intrigued by cat ketches since briefly sailing a Freedom 44 back in the 80’s., but you took it to a whole new level.

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17 hours ago, Oceanconcepts said:

I am completely in awe of how much innovation and insight you have put into Anomaly. I’ve been intrigued by cat ketches since briefly sailing a Freedom 44 back in the 80’s., but you took it to a whole new level.

Thanks - it was a bit of an experiment, but I think I have proven that a cat boat can be as fast as a sloop upwind - we should have known this from development class work, but it hadn't been demonstrated at this size to my knowledge. Off the wind there isn't really a contest with white sails, nearly obviating the need for colored sails. When the colored sails do come out it is simply a question of Who's is Biggest.

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3 hours ago, Laurent said:

 

DDW, I have some questions on the inverted vang (or gnav, as I have seen it called) on your main mast. I will PM you.

Thanks!

I've sent you an email to keep from hijacking the thread further.

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12 hours ago, MauiPunter said:

Paging @ryley   I believe he owns one of these.

I have the Freedom 45, a Mull design. the 40/40 is a Pedrick design like the Freedom 35. The 40/40 should be a slightly better performer than mine, but they are pretty similar boats. the biggest performance hit on my boat is the wing keel and shoal draft. The 40/40 as I recall has a fin keel and deeper draft.

Anyone who says they sail like shit hasn't spent the time to figure them out - I got 2nd in my class overall in the B1-2 this year so they can definitely go.

As to spinnakers, they can fly them with the caveat that they need to be pretty small and you need to add checkstays to the mast or risk breaking them. I have one for my boat, and it only works in a very narrow range. It's better for me, usually, to just go wing on wing with the camberspar and sail deep. gybing that big main can be a little perilous until you understand the right way to do it.

Both the 40/40 and the 45 are well built boats, sail well enough for cruisers, and are super easy to handle.

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2 hours ago, ryley said:

It's better for me, usually, to just go wing on wing with the camberspar and sail deep. gybing that big main can be a little perilous until you understand the right way to do it.

After sailing an unstayed rig for a little while, you begin to realize that the penchant for heading up to get a hotter angle has a lot to do with getting the sloop rig to work again. From around 60 deg AWA to DDW, a sloop rig is a very inefficient rig.  If you can square all your sails DDW as you can on these sorts of boats, there is less value in gybing downwind. 

I can sail wing and wing with the asym, but it requires a LOT of attention to keep everything driving. A symmetric on a pole would no doubt work better DDW. Or a tacking sprit.

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I sailed a 40/40 over 20 years ago in the BVI which eventually led to my purchase of a Freedom 36/38 which I've had for 19 years. Downwind, the camberspar and large main allow easy wing-on-wing sailing and good downwind performance.  There are some like-sized boats that can pass me in Buzzzrd's Bay going upwind, but not many and fewer still by people sailing single handed which these boats do so well. I have a small spinnaker that I rarely fly. I really liked the layout of the 40/40 with the separate shower but am happy with my 36/38. Completely agree with ryley's comments above.

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On 1/3/2022 at 5:48 PM, DDW said:

If you can square all your sails DDW as you can on these sorts of boats, there is less value in gybing downwind. 

@DDW do you find any practical benefit in letting the main out past square and trying to get some lift when going downwind?

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I have not found any benefit to oversquare, but I'll admit to not testing that rigorously. The main on my boat (with rotating mast) will go all the way forward, 180 deg. And around I suppose though you start winding up lines and wiring. 

I do let it out maybe 150 deg or so to reef downwind, which works a treat. Head up from DDW just a little to get the sail luffing, reef, then sheet in and drive off again. 

It does look a little peculiar....

BoomArtticulation2.jpg.93d051724a3b5506542aae029931cd8b.jpg

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6 hours ago, DDW said:

I have not found any benefit to oversquare, but I'll admit to not testing that rigorously. The main on my boat (with rotating mast) will go all the way forward, 180 deg. And around I suppose though you start winding up lines and wiring. 

I do let it out maybe 150 deg or so to reef downwind, which works a treat. Head up from DDW just a little to get the sail luffing, reef, then sheet in and drive off again. 

It does look a little peculiar....

BoomArtticulation2.jpg.93d051724a3b5506542aae029931cd8b.jpg

I guess you need a lazy sheet on the main if you want to do outside jibes. ;-)

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It is possible to do outside jibes in theory! But the lines (halyards and reefing lines), wires (vhf, lights, camera) and hydraulic hoses would wind up. I've found it not that dramatic to do controlled jibes up to about 35 knots or so - the twin sheet arrangement is a great help there. 

Actually it is one difficulty with letting it go too far, the sheet angle closes up and it it hard to get it back again. In light air, it's hard to get it to stay out there - the mast has only 0.6 deg rake, but that is enough that the boom wants to center. If you look carefully at that picture you will see I have taken a line ashore to hold it out there for the picture. I have preventer lines I can rig to the end of the sprit pole to keep the boom out when it is light and lumpy, also sometimes rig those in heavier going as a preventer. I worried if I dragged the boom I'll break the sprit pole, but in practice I do not seem to drag the boom even in pretty sporty conditions. 

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3 hours ago, Leeroy Jenkins said:

Judging from the tie up I'm going to guess that is not a Canadian dock. 

 

Actually it is, near Trawno (or however you say it). On the Great Lakes, Canada has in many areas entered the 18th century and discovered cleats. BC, not so much.....

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Interesting boat for an old guy like me but SA/D and D/L of 15.39 and 245. respectively seem a little pedestrian for all the performance claims for one who sails in predominantly light air conditions. Does the sail plan just work differently to the point those numbers are meaningless?

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BTW, I recall a San Diego Yachting cup race in the bay one year, crewing on a B36.7, and being unable to close on a Sparhawk 36 close reaching out the channel. I see they also made a 42 which I imagine would be a potential alternative to the Freedom 40 and maybe faster.

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7 hours ago, kinardly said:

BTW, I recall a San Diego Yachting cup race in the bay one year, crewing on a B36.7, and being unable to close on a Sparhawk 36 close reaching out the channel. I see they also made a 42 which I imagine would be a potential alternative to the Freedom 40 and maybe faster.

After a bit of web searching I found a boatdesign.net thread where Eric Sponberg (unstayed carbon mast ambassador/champion) said that there were only ever something like 2 Sparhawk 42's built. It is intriguing, but ultimately it may not be too easy to find a Sparhawk 42 for sale at this point.

https://www.boatdesign.net/threads/unstayed-rig-sparhawk-36.44792/

 

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Thanks for that tidbit. If I ever see one come up for sale I might have to check it out.

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  • 1 month later...

I have owned and sailed a Freedom 40/40 for the last 3 years. It is a fantastic boat and sails very well in everything but upwind light air. She is a big cruiser weighing in at 23,000lbs. But rates 81 PHRF on the SF Bay. She is fast and stiff . I rarely reef below a steady 23knts of breeze or so. The carbon fiber mast flexes to dump wind when it is gusty. It takes a while to learn all the tricks to sailing a freestanding mast. There is no backstay to crank down on. But you can bend the mast by sheeting in the main sheet. The main is huge and powerful. It requires a different way of thinking. But she is a joy to sail. I have short videos on YouTube. Search for sv Circe. I will be sailing in the PAC Cup this summer so you can see how she does across an ocean. 

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  • 2 months later...
On 1/5/2022 at 9:30 AM, kinardly said:

Interesting boat for an old guy like me but SA/D and D/L of 15.39 and 245. respectively seem a little pedestrian for all the performance claims for one who sails in predominantly light air conditions. Does the sail plan just work differently to the point those numbers are meaningless?

For one thing, this is cruising anarchy not racing anarchy. So presumably people are comparing the performance of the Freedom 40/40 to similar size cruising boats. And for another thing, the SA/D is based on the P and E of the main. But the freedom boats have large roach mains, so maybe the SA is a bit larger than calculated. And for one more thing, at least downwind, the freedom does have the ability to maintain good sail trim deeper downwind and to project nearly 100 percent of the main sail area perpendicular to the wind when running dead downwind. Most boats either have aft lowers or swept back spreaders in the way of really easing the main out. I am just speculating.

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9 hours ago, mckenzie.keith said:

For one thing, this is cruising anarchy not racing anarchy.

Until two cruisers are going in the same general direction.   Then it's a race. :lol:

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On 5/6/2022 at 9:56 PM, mckenzie.keith said:

For one thing, this is cruising anarchy not racing anarchy. So presumably people are comparing the performance of the Freedom 40/40 to similar size cruising boats. 

No slight intended but my comment was in response to claims that the boat would out perform other designs downwind so I raised the question. The explanation that the answer lies in the more efficient sheeting angle and greater mainsail projected area makes sense. If I see one hit the west coast market I will definitely have to check it out. 

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2 hours ago, kinardly said:

No slight intended but my comment was in response to claims that the boat would out perform other designs downwind so I raised the question. The explanation that the answer lies in the more efficient sheeting angle and greater mainsail projected area makes sense. If I see one hit the west coast market I will definitely have to check it out. 

I definitely didn't take it as an intended slight. I have been wondering the same thing myself.

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