Main Sheet Alteration

[Bull City 2,578]

Right now, TONIC has a short mainsheet traveler that bisects the cockpit. See the photo below. It's about 26' long, a bit of pain in the ass to move past, and I'm not sure how much benefit it provides. It would be nice to have an open cockpit.

I've been thinking about removing it entirely, and going with two blocks at the end of the cockpit, which would allow me to straddle the tiller. See red lines on photo.

I'm not sure about a few things:

1. Is the angle from the end of the boom to the point on the deck too great?

2. How can I obtain the proper purchase?

3. Where would I cleat it?

4. Is this a stupid idea?

Thanks,

B.C.

[Ishmael 10,544]

#4. Not entirely stupid, but far from ideal.

[rustylaru 105]

you'll need 2 of these or smaller and their fiddle block partners. You can set it up to be self balancing by having 1 continuous sheet and 1 double block on the boom. Ask this question on multihull anarchy and you'll encounter people who have done this on Corsairs tri's and L7 tri's. Hardest part is about it is having to listen to the people who will tell you it won't work.

[rustylaru 105]

It looks like i started a thread some time ago.

 

[weightless 699]

For just bopping around maybe add a Boomkicker / spring loaded vang type thing and replace the traveler with a padeye on the cockpit sole?

[DELETED 208]

Or if the Traveller isnt structural:

Get two sets of these or similar(Expensive) and rig one set Port and one starboard in an inverted ‘V’ for independant boom control/tuning. 
With this setup though they maybe best mounted within the length of the boom to prevent too much aft  tension on boom and gooseneck fitting.

Also, with the Inverted ‘V’ setup you need alot of rope to set it up and when boom is out the opposing sides lines would stretch out over cockpit. 

check out “Vernon Deck” s boat ‘Scheihalion’ on youtube, he has invested in it on a mono.

 

[Jud - s/v Sputnik 1,426]

The venerable Cal 20 was originally designed with dual end-boom sheeting.  I re-rigged my Cal 20, adding a Lewmar traveler in the middle of the cockpit (and blocks near the middle of the boom), to make it mid-boom sheeting (per advice from the owner of Blackfeathers, who raced singlehanded to Hawaii - he made his Cal 20 sheeting mid-boom to improve performance).

I preferred it mid-boom - worked better - and just accepted the traveler where it was.  Zen calm solves lots of problems :-)

[Whinging Pom 260]

Loads of Westerlys have their mainsheet rigged at an angle to a track aft of the cockpit.  Main problem is the mainsheet falls garotting the helmsman during a gybe.

 

[Max Rockatansky 913]

My Catana has a delta mainsheet as stock. What I don’t like is the loss of leech control when running. If you have a boom vang that may solve.

[fufkin 641]

If moving past the traveller is only’a bit of a pain in the ass’ it seems a shame to mess up a perfectly fine end boom sheeting set up with good tiller ergonomics, good purchase, that’s properly located right near your jib trimming area...for a tangled up two block set up that’s all over the tiller not to mention your neck if I’m interpreting‘straddle the tiller’ properly. You really want to trade moving across the traveller for reaching across the tiller for a leeward block adjustment? A block that is about as far away from your windward jib sheet as possible...singlehanded...whose gonna hold your drink? 

Compare ergonomics, purchase, tiller location, dual mainsheet cleat location and jib trimming location with Vernons conversion on the other thread. Two different sets of implications.

So yeah I’m in the #4 camp.

[Sail4beer 3,411]

Remove traveller, install Barney post in the cockpit sole for the mainsheet and go sailing. 

[2airishuman 324]

Something like that was the stock setup on my Morgan 250 although boom was longer and the rudder post further forward so the angles worked out better.

As posted upthread, you use a block cam cleat (and becket) on one side, a two-sheave block on the mast, and a plain block on the other side, and so end up with a 4:1 with no need for an extra cleat.  With the angles you have, it looks like the sheet is going to hit the tiller if you're on a run.

My H26 had sheeting like 80% of the way to the end of the boom, that basically went straight down to a pad eye on the cockpit sole just forward of the tiller.

Neither of these setups was really clutter free the way a traveler on the coach roof can be.

[gkny 26]

If your complaint is about the traveler location when you are NOT sailing, there are removable traveler systems.  Barton makes one and I have seen custom versions.

[justsomeguy! 1,032]

59 minutes ago, 2airishuman said:

As posted upthread, you use a block cam cleat (and becket) on one side, a two-sheave block on the mast, and a plain block on the other side, and so end up with a 4:1 with no need for an extra cleat.  With the angles you have, it looks like the sheet is going to hit the tiller if you're on a run.

I think it's known as a Crosby rig.

[Sail4beer 3,411]

1 hour ago, Sail4beer said:

Remove traveller, install Barney post in the cockpit sole for the mainsheet and go sailing. 

My friend Yotguy does this to all his boats and it worked out well each time. He still won the Beercan series every year with each new boat. I removed the traveller on his Ranger 22 and he installed a tall Barney post so he wouldn’t keep banging his shins on the traveller. It’s worth it. These have aft travelers, you would just need to create a simple bridle system.

[blurocketsmate 109]

Sheeting directly from the boom is standard in skiffs and some sportboats. It feels weird at first but you get used to it quickly. You can put your camcleat block on the end of the boom, or lead the sheet forward to one in the middle. 

Also, instead of a two-leg mainsheet, you could have a single leg down to a bridle over the tiller, which could be fixed or adjustable.

 

[Sail4beer 3,411]

^ The ensign sails with a “head knocker” ratcheting Oxen block hanging from the boom. That’s how I setup my daysailor after I bought it from the Yotguy. I removed the Barney post he installed so I’d have a wide open cockpit. 

[Sail4beer 3,411]

It was a short Barney post base and the boat had zero leg room, so I removed the sole and it made things much better but made the headknocker necessary since there’s nothing to attach a base to. And yes, the bottom is solid enough to stand on in the water and on the trailer. Also left the keel sump, I didn’t want to tear the bottom off…

[Sail4beer 3,411]

Thread drift over! 
 

I’d like to replace the aft deck mounted traveller with just a bridle

[Jud - s/v Sputnik 1,426]

9 hours ago, Sail4beer said:

Remove traveller, install Barney post in the cockpit sole for the mainsheet and go sailing. 

Great idea - like one of the masters of the art of sailing has done.

https://www.yachtingworld.com/voyages/solo-pacific-sailing-webb-chiles-moore-24-gannet-126337

[ride2live 57]

Except he also has a traveler. Granted it's short and low.

[Jud - s/v Sputnik 1,426]

25 minutes ago, ride2live said:

Except he also has a traveler. Granted it's short and low.

On Webb Chiles’s boat?  I don’t see a traveler (like a track).  Not sure what you’re referring to?

[madboutcats 113]

20 minutes ago, Jud - s/v Sputnik said:

On Webb Chiles’s boat?  I don’t see a traveler (like a track).  Not sure what you’re referring to?

I reckon that has to be a traveller near his feet or else the mainsheet is rigged funny to just one side of the boat

[estarzinger 888]

21 minutes ago, Jud - s/v Sputnik said:

On Webb Chiles’s boat?  I don’t see a traveler (like a track).  Not sure what you’re referring to?

from 2021 article Webb wrote (trav used to span at coaming height and he lowered it to cockpit sole):

[Jud - s/v Sputnik 1,426]

1 hour ago, estarzinger said:

from 2021 article Webb wrote (trav used to span at coaming height and he lowered it to cockpit sole):

Oh, now I see it.  Hadn’t zoomed in on the other pic I posted above.

I do remember him writing about having that “pod” (or whatever it’s called) installed - on his journal site.  Where is the 2021 article you referred to?  I’d like to read it.

[Bull City 2,578]

Thanks to all of you for the advice, ideas, and cautions. 

I think this is going on the back burner, i.e. a #4:

• The traveler is inconvenient, but only when changing the helmsman, or when I want to recline while steering.
• A barney post would be an improvement, but still an obstacle.
• Having a bridle or sheeting points that straddle the rudder post lead to a number of issues with lines potentially getting tangled with the tiller. That would make a accidental gybe a real cluster.
• That arrangement would also take away one of my preferred perches while motoring.

[SemiSalt 282]

You might look for pictures of Pearson 28s. Not the 28-2, but the earlier one now sometimes retro-named the 28-1. My memory is of a main sheet rigged with two parts running to the aft quarters, though most of the pictures I found today have just one tackle to midships, just forward of the aft stay.

Any rig like this is going to require a good boom vang, but the real issue from a sail trim perspective is that 1) you can't trim the boom to midships and 2) if you do sheet it near midships, it will have so much downward pull that it will eliminate twist and close the leech.

[thinwater 119]

46 minutes ago, SemiSalt said:

 

I would not change it.

I rigged my F-24 so that I could use either the traveler or twin sheets, with a 10-second change over time. I wanted to test and compare. I used it this way for several weeks. Although both systems were rigged with good Harken blocks and worked smoothly, I stayed with the traveller system. It was just easier to use in gusty conditions. I'll step over the traveler bridge (similar problem to the OP).

And don't underestimate just how much the new sheets will be in the way. Remember, the windward sheet cuts across the cockpit, forward, when reaching. With a traveler, as soon as you drop the traveller, the cockpit is clear.

[Diarmuid 1,332]

Don't overlook the possibilities of a simple U bolt on the cockpit sole. probably midboom. We moved the mainsheet on our SJ21 from the triangular/aft quarters factory setup to a 3:1 on the sole, and it was a fabulous upgrade. Easy to scoot around, no shin-high bar athwart the seats, jibing is really easy b/c you collect the entire mainsheet and throw the boom across, with far less chance of it snagging or hitting crew.

I considered a barney post or riser block, but those actually give worse boom control than just sheeting to the floor. They're popular for boats that have a ton of tweaky strings to organize, like the Etchells.

http://photos1.blogger.com/blogger/6990/1356/1600/IMGP3808.jpg

[Bull City 2,578]

2 hours ago, Diarmuid said:

Don't overlook the possibilities of a simple U bolt on the cockpit sole. probably midboom. We moved the mainsheet on our SJ21 from the triangular/aft quarters factory setup to a 3:1 on the sole, and it was a fabulous upgrade. Easy to scoot around, no shin-high bar athwart the seats, jibing is really easy b/c you collect the entire mainsheet and throw the boom across, with far less chance of it snagging or hitting crew.

I considered a barney post or riser block, but those actually give worse boom control than just sheeting to the floor. They're popular for boats that have a ton of tweaky strings to organize, like the Etchells.

http://photos1.blogger.com/blogger/6990/1356/1600/IMGP3808.jpg

Interesting idea. There is already an eye strap on the centerline of sole, directly under the traveler. It was there for the back-stay adjuster, but no longer used. It would be very easy to try out the arrangement. Thanks!

[Diarmuid 1,332]

Is your mainsail loose-footed? Easy to hitch a strop around the boom if yes. Then any old cleating fiddle blocks (or double blocks) would prove the concept for you. Our lower fiddle cleats upward. I use my foot to uncleat when sitting on the rail in high winds. Some prefer the opposite, pulling up to blow the sheet.

I figured even if the experiment failed, having a Wichard U bolt in the floor would be useful and minimally annoying. If you already have one, the difficult part is done.

 

[Santanasailor 639]

I usually control the main with the traveler, so I am willing to put up with stepping over/around it.  But plenty of boats jsut have the boom sheeted from a block on the centerline.  

Now this may look or be stupid, but what it you had an extended boom.  Keeping the mainsail at its current dimension but have the boom extend past the cockpit.  Then, sheeting the boom could be easily set very close to the stern.  Its just an idea, never seen it done but my thought is, just because it has not been done does not mean it can’t be done.  

Need a new boom though

[Bull City 2,578]

8 minutes ago, Santanasailor said:

what it you had an extended boom.

I've thought about that. If I were to lengthen the boom, or get a new one, it would make sense to make it long enough that it would be long enough to have the traveler aft of the rudder post. That way, you can still tilt the tiller up and out of the way while having Mimosas in the cockpit.

Going that far aft gets kind of challenging given the boat's deck lay out.

 

[bgytr 503]

Be careful about moving the mainsheet.  There can be unintended structural consequences.  I know a guy who had a mid boom mainsheet and moved to an end of boom mainsheet when he lengthened the boom.  This involved moving the bottom of the mainsheet to a short traveler in the cockpit.  The cockpit then developed a bunch of stress cracks radiating from corners of seat lockers and elsewhere in the cockpit as the global structure was not designed to handle the mainsheet load at that location. 

[Bull City 2,578]

4 hours ago, bgytr said:

Be careful about moving the mainsheet.  There can be unintended structural consequences.  I know a guy who had a mid boom mainsheet and moved to an end of boom mainsheet when he lengthened the boom.  This involved moving the bottom of the mainsheet to a short traveler in the cockpit.  The cockpit then developed a bunch of stress cracks radiating from corners of seat lockers and elsewhere in the cockpit as the global structure was not designed to handle the mainsheet load at that location. 

Another reason to refrain from tinkering with things without a compelling reason. Thank you.

[Panoramix 1,776]

20 hours ago, Bull City said:

Thanks to all of you for the advice, ideas, and cautions. 

I think this is going on the back burner, i.e. a #4:

• The traveler is inconvenient, but only when changing the helmsman, or when I want to recline while steering.
• A barney post would be an improvement, but still an obstacle.
• Having a bridle or sheeting points that straddle the rudder post lead to a number of issues with lines potentially getting tangled with the tiller. That would make a accidental gybe a real cluster.
• That arrangement would also take away one of my preferred perches while motoring.

It might not be ergonomic when you are changing helm but it is so useful and it is so much easier to trim with a traveler...

For ergonomy while motoring or at anchor, it can be a good idea to have a point where to attach the sheet on the side.

[Santanasailor 639]

37 minutes ago, Panoramix said:

It might not be ergonomic when you are changing helm but it is so useful and it is so much easier to trim with a traveler...

For ergonomy while motoring or at anchor, it can be a good idea to have a point where to attach the sheet on the side.

Not trying to preach but I agree on both points.  

When we had our S2 7.9, when not sailing (as in raising or lowering the main) it was pretty much imperative to keep the the boom sheeted hard and the traveler pulled to the far starboard.  That kept everything out of my way and kept the boom from swinging wildly.  The Santana, we have the traveler hard to Starboard when bending on and hard to port when lowering the main.  That is more a function of our slip’s orientation to the cove we live on.

I really depend on a traveler when sailing our keel boats and cannot imagine trying to sail a boat with mid-boom sheeting and the traveler on the coachroof.  (Where I can’t readily reach it)  So, i put up with having the traveler in the middle of the cockpit, as close to the helm as possible.     

Now for an interesting day when not much else is happening and the wind is moderate.  Lash the helm and steer the boat by trimming the main and jib.  The boat can be taken pretty much anywhere, as long as there is plenty of room (she wont turn on a dime) and you don’t have to make an emergency turn.  

[Sail4beer 3,411]

I think Bull has made the correct decision so that his mainsheet alteration doesn’t cause a mainsheet altercation as he stated.
But that shouldn’t discourage  further discussion. 

[Jud - s/v Sputnik 1,426]

On 1/6/2022 at 10:05 AM, Sail4beer said:

I think Bull has made the correct decision so that his mainsheet alteration doesn’t cause a mainsheet altercation as he stated.
But that shouldn’t discourage  further discussion. 

Further discussion...I’m trying to get a feel for how this kind of mainsheet sheeting “works” or “feels”.  I can’t really remember it from my Cal 20, since it’s going on probably 10 years ago that I got the boat and soon after began to completely modify all the running rigging (it had originally had a dual main sheet; I converted it to mid-boom sheeting.)  

I just came across this FB page of a guy in Nova Scotia who attempting to compete in the upcoming Golden Globe Race (non-stop singlehanded RTW). A Rustler 36 - which was the winning boat in the first edition of this race, but heavily modified by the winner, a very, very experienced singlehander, Jean-Luc Van Den Heede (sp?).

Just looking at this dual main sheet on this guy’s boat, presumably the old stock rig on the Rustler 36?  It looks like the dual main sheets would really be in the way...trying to imagine dealing with them tacking in big waves and breeze offshore. (This is a vid from his multi-thousand mile qualifying sail last summer, becalmed just before hurricane/tropical storm Henri off N. American East coast: https://m.facebook.com/edward.walentynowicz/posts/pcb.2036655996486800/?photo_id=213893180716559&mds=%2Fphotos%2Fviewer%2F%3Fphotoset_token%3Dpcb.2036655996486800%26photo%3D213893180716559%26profileid%3D670929761%26source%3D49%26refid%3D52%26__tn__%3DEH-R%26cached_data%3Dtrue%26ftid%3D&mdp=1&mdf=1 )

How is this kind of set up to tack quickly?  Are the main sheets always in the way, threatening to strangle or decapitate you? :-)  Looks very clumsy and crowded in the cockpit with them.

Thr vid above doesn’t give a great feel for them, since it’s just from the perspective of the helm, in very calm conditions.

[Panoramix 1,776]

4 minutes ago, Jud - s/v Sputnik said:

Further discussion...I’m trying to get a feel for how this kind of mainsheet sheeting “works” or “feels”.  I can’t really remember it from my Cal 20, since it’s going on probably 10 years ago that I got the boat and soon after began to completely modify all the running rigging (it had originally had a dual main sheet; I converted it to mid-boom sheeting.)  

I just came across this FB page of a guy in Nova Scotia who attempting to compete in the upcoming Golden Globe Race (non-stop singlehanded RTW). A Rustler 36 - which was the winning boat in the first edition of this race, but heavily modified by the winner, a very, very experienced singlehander, Jean-Luc Van Den Heede (sp?).

Just looking at this dual main sheet on this guy’s boat, presumably the old stock rig on the Rustler 36?  It looks like the dual main sheets would really be in the way...trying to imagine dealing with them tacking in big waves and breeze offshore. (This is a vid from his multi-thousand mile qualifying sail last summer, becalmed just before hurricane/tropical storm Henri off N. American East coast: https://m.facebook.com/edward.walentynowicz/posts/pcb.2036655996486800/?photo_id=213893180716559&mds=%2Fphotos%2Fviewer%2F%3Fphotoset_token%3Dpcb.2036655996486800%26photo%3D213893180716559%26profileid%3D670929761%26source%3D49%26refid%3D52%26__tn__%3DEH-R%26cached_data%3Dtrue%26ftid%3D&mdp=1&mdf=1 )

How is this kind of set up to tack quickly?  Are the main sheets always in the way, threatening to strangle or decapitate you? :-)  Looks very clumsy and crowded in the cockpit with them.

Thr vid above doesn’t give a great feel for them, since it’s just from the perspective of the helm, in very calm conditions.

It's all about being able to actively control the boom. When you gybe, you pull on the (pre-gybe) windward sheet to bring the boom across while the leeward sheet cleat has been released. The friction in the (before gybe) leeward sheet will slow the boom that will come to a stop before hitting the shrouds.

On a tack, you push the tiller release the (pre-tack) leeward sheet a bit and repower the main by sheeting in the (after-tack) leeward sheet.

 

When you are sailing and need to go to the tiller, instead of climbing above the traveller, you need to duck below the windward sheet... not OK if you carry princesses aboard but not such a bad compromise if you are sailing alone.... plus that something to hang to. Downwind, even if you don't have time to rig a preventer, a Chinese gybe is less likely as the boom can't go much beyond the centreline, chances are that the autopilot or the windvane can still bring back the boat in line. Upwind the boom can't move at all.

[thinwater 119]

20 hours ago, Panoramix said:

It's all about being able to actively control the boom. When you gybe, you pull on the (pre-gybe) windward sheet to bring the boom across while the leeward sheet cleat has been released. The friction in the (before gybe) leeward sheet will slow the boom that will come to a stop before hitting the shrouds.

On a tack, you push the tiller release the (pre-tack) leeward sheet a bit and repower the main by sheeting in the (after-tack) leeward sheet.

 

When you are sailing and need to go to the tiller, instead of climbing above the traveller, you need to duck below the windward sheet... not OK if you carry princesses aboard but not such a bad compromise if you are sailing alone.... plus that something to hang to. Downwind, even if you don't have time to rig a preventer, a Chinese gybe is less likely as the boom can't go much beyond the centreline, chances are that the autopilot or the windvane can still bring back the boat in line. Upwind the boom can't move at all.

a. You can do all of that with a traveller. Just sayin'.

b. Constraining the boom so that it cannot move at all is not always good. Normally it is not. Instead of the boom moving a bit with the sail, absorbing shock, the sail cloth must absorb the "boom" of refilling in lumpy conditions. This is one of the things I liked least about the 2-sheet system. It is NOT an advantage.

[European Bloke 861]

20 hours ago, Jud - s/v Sputnik said:

 

So I keep hearing about people wanting to free up cockpit space, and make things safer. Then I saw these pictures and was lost for words.

[Panoramix 1,776]

1 hour ago, thinwater said:

a. You can do all of that with a traveller. Just sayin'.

b. Constraining the boom so that it cannot move at all is not always good. Normally it is not. Instead of the boom moving a bit with the sail, absorbing shock, the sail cloth must absorb the "boom" of refilling in lumpy conditions. This is one of the things I liked least about the 2-sheet system. It is NOT an advantage.

Controlling a traveller alone during a gybe is harder as you have 2 lines to look after plus the mainsheet. With a 2 sheets system, you just need to look after the ex windward / new leeward sheet during the gybe.

As for the boom in lumpy conditions, if you open the leech (as you should to keep flow as laminar as possible), the boom has some space to move around to dampen things.

I am not saying that it is the best possible system (personally I like travellers), just explaining the rationale behind such a choice.

Also downwind, the useless for the moment windward sheet can instantly be used as a preventer/downhaul, it can only be good to have redundancy...

[thinwater 119]

12 hours ago, Panoramix said:

Controlling a traveller alone during a gybe is harder as you have 2 lines to look after plus the mainsheet. With a 2 sheets system, you just need to look after the ex windward / new leeward sheet during the gybe.

As for the boom in lumpy conditions, if you open the leech (as you should to keep flow as laminar as possible), the boom has some space to move around to dampen things.

I am not saying that it is the best possible system (personally I like travellers), just explaining the rationale behind such a choice.

Also downwind, the useless for the moment windward sheet can instantly be used as a preventer/downhaul, it can only be good to have redundancy...

a. Disagree, and I have used both systems on the same boat. Center traveler, pull sheet in, ease out. There might be three lines, but not at the same time, so the argument is weak. With twin sheets you still have to center the boom with the windward sheet and then take up the slack in the lee sheet. And there is no racer-jibe option, where you simply keep the vang snug and do a flying jibe, pulling the tackle across by hand in light conditions.

b. Not in my experience, not unless the lee sheet is slack, which in most conditions is wrong. But the problem does not exist with a traveller.

c. And if you rigged the sheet as a preventer and you have to jibe quickly... you have no sheet. No thanks. Also the twist on the hardware could be brutal, depending on the rigging. Something could break.

I think the 2-sheet system is a great jury rig that every cruiser should know, because travellers have failed. But if it actually worked better you see it on race boats and more cruisers.

[Panoramix 1,776]

15 hours ago, thinwater said:

a. Disagree, and I have used both systems on the same boat. Center traveler, pull sheet in, ease out. There might be three lines, but not at the same time, so the argument is weak. With twin sheets you still have to center the boom with the windward sheet and then take up the slack in the lee sheet. And there is no racer-jibe option, where you simply keep the vang snug and do a flying jibe, pulling the tackle across by hand in light conditions.

b. Not in my experience, not unless the lee sheet is slack, which in most conditions is wrong. But the problem does not exist with a traveller.

c. And if you rigged the sheet as a preventer and you have to jibe quickly... you have no sheet. No thanks. Also the twist on the hardware could be brutal, depending on the rigging. Something could break.

I think the 2-sheet system is a great jury rig that every cruiser should know, because travellers have failed. But if it actually worked better you see it on race boats and more cruisers.

VDH as sailed countless miles, he won the golden globe like this, might not work for you but it obviously worked for him!

[SemiSalt 282]

For the historians among us, there was a SA thread on the same general topic some years ago.https://forums.sailinganarchy.com/index.php?/topic/154966-to-travel-or-not/

[thinwater 119]

Sure it works. Certainly, there is less to break in a singlehanded round-the-world race. But why would I set my boat up for something I don't plant to do? And look at the way he is ducking under it. Not a great choice if you have much crew.

Go for it. Hope you like it and I believe you will.  It would be my #2 choice, before any other non-traveler system. But I find it less efficient and less pleasant, as do >98% of sailors, gathering from what I see in marinas. It could be that none of the designers have heard of it.

[Crash 1,007]

I think what works for a single-handed around the world sailor on an older design that is pure displacement (i.e. the Golden Globe boats) and what works for Bull on his lake are 2 entirely different things.  For the GG single hander, boom control might outweigh perfect main sail trim.  For Bull, perfect might not be the goal, but he sails in a light wind area (summer) and the ability to get the boom above centerline, with only one set of sheets is a big plus.  

So lets get back to an apples to apples discussion.  This one was about an H-boat, on a lake in North Carolina...given that, sticking with what he has seems the best solution for his particular boat on his lake.

[Panoramix 1,776]

17 hours ago, Crash said:

So lets get back to an apples to apples discussion.  This one was about an H-boat, on a lake in North Carolina...given that, sticking with what he has seems the best solution for his particular boat on his lake.

We got into this discussion on twin sheets because Jud asked about it in the context of the globe race... I gave him an answer!

But then thinwater seems to think that the answer was for his boat...

[Crash 1,007]

2 minutes ago, Panoramix said:

We got into this discussion on twin sheets because Jud asked about it in the context of the globe race... I gave him an answer!

Good point!  Thread drift is a fact of life huh?  

[weightless 699]

17 hours ago, Crash said:

the ability to get the boom above centerline, with only one set of sheets is a big plus.  

Are you sure? Of course I don't know how BC likes to sail but I'm skeptical that getting the boom above the center line is likely to be "a big plus". Trimming the main without putting too much leach tension on it, yes. Boom above CL? Maybe. I did a quick image search and I didn't see any H-boats in light air racing trim with the boom above center. The extra height that might be available in that mode likely requires very close attention to boat speed. That level of intensity might not optimize AMG (amusement made good).

[Diarmuid 1,332]

If Bull isn't actively trimming with the traveler, it's just a shin-banger with no performance advantages. Which makes a fixed-point centerline sheet attachment rather attractive. I thought about adding a cross-bench track to our SJ21, but after sailing it for a few years and realizing: a) with its mackerel hull shape and swept-back keel, it was never going to point high, regardless of sail trim; and b) 8° traveler range for 'playing the puffs' is of little import when our 'puffs' run 60 kts, I opted for simple sheeting and fast, deep sail reefing.

Bull could probably pinch the H Boat to 30° AWA with string sails & a traveler -- but does he want to?

[Crash 1,007]

1 hour ago, weightless said:

Are you sure? Of course I don't know how BC likes to sail but I'm skeptical that getting the boom above the center line is likely to be "a big plus". Trimming the main without putting too much leach tension on it, yes. Boom above CL? Maybe. I did a quick image search and I didn't see any H-boats in light air racing trim with the boom above center. The extra height that might be available in that mode likely requires very close attention to boat speed. That level of intensity might not optimize AMG (amusement made good).

Nope, not sure.  Assumed.  But I couldn’t find any pics either…though not a lot of light air pics with H Boats in them general…

[Remodel 830]

You could rig it like a Sunfish with a traveler rope or cable that goes over and secured on either side of the tiller. Your 4-1 tackle is attached to that by a stainless ring (or a fixed eye in the traveler) and Bob's your uncle. The cleat can be at either the end of the boom (headknocker) or on the traveler. You'd want to experiment with each to see what works best for you.

[TwoLegged 2,238]

I think that somebody needs to urgently buy and deliver to Chateau Bull an exquisite wooden dinghy in poor repair.  Not a boat that needs a rebuild, just one which has long lacked TLC.

The problem as I see it is that Bull is hungry for a boat project.  So my theory is that Bull is looking at Tonic in search of something to fettle with.  But Tonic has reached a state of near-perfection, so unless Bull is distracted by some other project boat, Tonic risks being degraded by some makework project.

[Crash 1,007]

19 minutes ago, TwoLegged said:

I think that somebody needs to urgently buy and deliver to Chateau Bull an exquisite wooden dinghy in poor repair.  Not a boat that needs a rebuild, just one which has long lacked TLC.

The problem as I see it is that Bull is hungry for a boat project.  So my theory is that Bull is looking at Tonic in search of something to fettle with.  But Tonic has reached a state of near-perfection, so unless Bull is distracted by some other project boat, Tonic risks being degraded by some makework project.

That's very insightful Leggs!  I think you are absolutely correct!

Bull???

[Sail4beer 3,411]

If you don’t have any vision for improving your boat, you need another boat, according to my good friend Yotguy!

[Sail4beer 3,411]

Or, if you’ve done all you can to improve your boat, you need a new boat…

[jzk 1,736]

On 1/2/2022 at 9:25 PM, Bull City said:

Right now, TONIC has a short mainsheet traveler that bisects the cockpit. See the photo below. It's about 26' long, a bit of pain in the ass to move past, and I'm not sure how much benefit it provides. It would be nice to have an open cockpit.

I've been thinking about removing it entirely, and going with two blocks at the end of the cockpit, which would allow me to straddle the tiller. See red lines on photo.

I'm not sure about a few things:

1. Is the angle from the end of the boom to the point on the deck too great?

2. How can I obtain the proper purchase?

3. Where would I cleat it?

4. Is this a stupid idea?

Thanks,

B.C.

Your modification should be fine.  Mount the attachment points with good backing plates.  Beware the main sheet getting caught on stuff when you gybe.  And control the boom with the vang.  

[TwoLegged 2,238]

On 1/14/2022 at 12:12 AM, Diarmuid said:

playing the puffs' is of little import when our 'puffs' run 60 kts, I opted for simple sheeting and fast, deep sail reefing

If the puffs are 60knots, surely reefing is  irrelevant?   A 60knot puff is going to knock a 21-footer down flat even if your only canvas is a tiny storm sail.

[Steam Flyer 8,381]

On 1/3/2022 at 1:06 PM, Sail4beer said:

^ The ensign sails with a “head knocker” ratcheting Oxen block hanging from the boom. That’s how I setup my daysailor after I bought it from the Yotguy. I removed the Barney post he installed so I’d have a wide open cockpit. 

The off-the-boom sheeting works well but takes a while to get used to. And you need some way of securing the bitter end, to a spot you can reach in the cockpit, so it doesn't get lost over the side.

I dislike barney posts much more than I dislike mid-cockpit travelers. For many boats, having it there is a plus as it gives a foot brace and seperates the skipper from the lower life forms. Uncomfortable when not sailing? Why do you have the boat in the first place? Can you sit below, instead?

- DSK

[Diarmuid 1,332]

1 hour ago, TwoLegged said:

If the puffs are 60knots, surely reefing is  irrelevant?   A 60knot puff is going to knock a 21-footer down flat even if your only canvas is a tiny storm sail.

Nope. SJ21 handles very well on a 30% reefed main and roller-furled jib. Done it many times. This day the blast was only 45, but we did get caught in an awkward place on the lake:

A friend took this shot as I was bringing two non-sailing passengers in for a rather spectacular beach landing at his cottage, once the wind had dropped to about 25. It was blowing smoke a few minutes before. And that's all it does on these mountain lakes: lots of noise, lots of wind, no real waves, done in twenty minutes. But you need to be awake to the moment, and you need a strategy to keep you upright when all hell breaks loose. Furl jib, jiffy-reef main board-flat, forereach in place until the gale slackens and starts to veer. Then you crack off, maybe unroll a dishcloth of headsail if the slop is too ugly, and power-reach back and forth until it's mellow again.

Traveler is not much help. But for (non-mountain) lakes or sounds, where small changes in wind speeds or angles can be exploited, a traveler would be a nice thing.

 

[Bull City 2,578]

15 hours ago, TwoLegged said:

I think that somebody needs to urgently buy and deliver to Chateau Bull an exquisite wooden dinghy in poor repair.  Not a boat that needs a rebuild, just one which has long lacked TLC.

The problem as I see it is that Bull is hungry for a boat project.  So my theory is that Bull is looking at Tonic in search of something to fettle with.  But Tonic has reached a state of near-perfection, so unless Bull is distracted by some other project boat, Tonic risks being degraded by some makework project.

 

14 hours ago, Crash said:

That's very insightful Leggs!  I think you are absolutely correct!

Bull???

I think Leggs may be Mrs. Bull in disguise: knows me better than I know myself.  I blame the winter weather for thinking too much about boat stuff.

On the mainsheet, changing the sheeting point introduces some problems I hadn't thought of, and solves a "problem" that really isn't that much of a problem. I have put the idea aside. Thank you fellow SA-ists for the advice.

I am working on another TONIC project. More later on another thread! 

B.C.

[Bull City 2,578]

37 minutes ago, Diarmuid said:

Nope. SJ21 handles very well on a 30% reefed main and roller-furled jib. Done it many times. This day the blast was only 45, but we did get caught in an awkward place on the lake:

A friend took this shot as I was bringing two non-sailing passengers in for a rather spectacular beach landing at his cottage, once the wind had dropped to about 25. It was blowing smoke a few minutes before. And that's all it does on these mountain lakes: lots of noise, lots of wind, no real waves, done in twenty minutes. But you need to be awake to the moment, and you need a strategy to keep you upright when all hell breaks loose. Furl jib, jiffy-reef main board-flat, forereach in place until the gale slackens and starts to veer. Then you crack off, maybe unroll a dishcloth of headsail if the slop is too ugly, and power-reach back and forth until it's mellow again.

Traveler is not much help. But for (non-mountain) lakes or sounds, where small changes in wind speeds or angles can be exploited, a traveler would be a nice thing.

 

Do you get any visual clues that the gale is coming?

[TwoLegged 2,238]

12 minutes ago, Bull City said:

I think Leggs may be Mrs. Bull in disguise: knows me better than I know myself.  

Don;t blow my cover!   

12 minutes ago, Bull City said:

I am working on another TONIC project. More later on another thread! 

Uhoh!  Rapid Response Distraction Squad DEPLOY NOW!  

[Diarmuid 1,332]

26 minutes ago, Bull City said:

Do you get any visual clues that the gale is coming?

Sometimes. You might see one of these

...or just a black line racing across flat water on a cloudless day. No trees around the shores to indicate the gust front. The heavy blows come from any direction -- no reference to earlier wind patterns. You really must pay attention, as the first blasts are the strongest and will have your mast underwater in a moment. We wear life jackets and keep the hatches closed. Also, the water in these lakes is cold when roiled, and if you get dumped, you can die really fast.

 

 

[Bull City 2,578]

^^ Scary.

Years ago, when I lived in Miami and sailed an 18' Alberg Typhoon on Biscayne Bay, we saw a line squall coming. We dropped sails, put on PFDs, and waited for it to hit. We didn't have to wait long. It was moving fast, and we had a weird sleigh ride on short steep chop for 15-20 minutes in a heavy down pour. The Typhoon behaved marvelously, a credit to Carl Alberg, and then it ended as suddenly as it began.