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1 hour ago, RobbieB said:

So, I've heard someone is circling their wagons in NA to become an ILCA builder.....I think the next 6 months will be interesting.

Fulcrum?  :D 

@Steve Clark any comment?  

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I mean...they did just move into that new facility.  What about it @Dave Clark?  It'd be great if Fulcrum had it or another NA builder.

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7 hours ago, RobbieB said:

So, I've heard someone is circling their wagons in NA to become an ILCA builder.....I think the next 6 months will be interesting.

I doubt that this idea will come to fruition.

Too many builders as it stands IMHO; I would not be surprised if one of the current builders will throw in the towel before too long. 

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9 minutes ago, Wavedancer II said:

I doubt it...

I doubt that this idea will come to fruition.

Too many builders as it stands IMHO; I would not be surprised if one of the current builders will throw in the towel before too long. 

I don't know...it certainly does two things very well.  It avoids the additional time and cost of shipping in containers from Asia, Europe, or Australia, and it also flies the flag for American made which should give it a big advantage being tariff free.  

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8 hours ago, JulianB said:

I doubt it will be "USA " built.  

More likely North American made.

So Canada or Mexico...interesting. And yes, I had to look up Mexico to see if it qualified as North or Central and they say North.  They also say Greenland is considered part of North America in case we want to confuse matters.

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18 hours ago, WCB said:

I mean...they did just move into that new facility.  What about it @Dave Clark?  It'd be great if Fulcrum had it or another NA builder.

With the greatest possible respect and empathy: Over my dead body.

The construction manual insists on a process which is neither labor efficient nor environmentally friendly- open molding- which essentially necessitates outsourced construction or a price point which I don't think matches the value of the goods sold.  We'd be in trouble with the town if we set up to build a significant quantity of boats that way. The fumes reek and would have all of our neighbors up in arms, and that's not considering the wellbeing of my staff. Zim has already set up ILCA production in China, which is pretty much exactly the correct call, given the constraints of the specifications. My guess is that the PSA will slowly lose its presently dominant market share to ILCA laminators in east Asia year on year while retaining a segment of the market that views them as the highest quality builder. 

If they'd let us infuse them, it might be a different story, but the sales volume is divided across so many identical competitors right now with no clear territories that it's simply bad business to get involved at all, before you get to the prohibitively antique build methods. 

Add on that we are presently building a lighter, longer, equally powerful, less expensive singlehanded dinghy with a more contemporary laminate as fast as we can possibly build them (Rocket) and it's a trifecta. And that's before you get to the one that costs less than an imported ILCA which also foils (UFO). The 3.5X increase in the size of our plant was a necessity to accommodate the volume of Rocket and UFO production as well as internal engineering work on tooling and mechatronics (stay tuned for yet more custom boatbuilding robots!). For no amount of money can you interest me in spending my career executing specifications which are deemed to be special because they are never allowed to be improved. 

Thanks for thinking of us though!

DRC  

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4 hours ago, Dave Clark said:

With the greatest possible respect and empathy: Over my dead body.

I have a lot of sympathy and respect for that view, but I wonder how Ovi, Devoti and Nautivela overcome the economic and, especially, the environmental hurdles.  Especially as Europe generally has greener regulations than the US. 

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4 hours ago, Bored Stiff said:

I wonder how Ovi, Devoti and Nautivela overcome the economic and, especially, the environmental hurdles. 

You wonder why. 

DRC

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So I agree with DC and also disagree with some aspects.

Few years back, I was part of a serious consortium looking at a USA build (ILCA), there where $$$, there where people and there was expertise.

I think we ended up in Sth Carolina and I was almost USA bound mid Covid.

Cold feet, jitters, what ever, it did not happen.   (nb1)

Not sure if it was part of that or as a a-side, SC (DC’s dad) and I did have a conversation in a similar vain.

As part of that due-diligence we certainly looked at Mexico and Canada and on paper, both look more appealing, but it depends on where and more importantly whom.

All that was pre the stupidity in logistics cost that presently beset us, that stupidity would only increase the viability of NA made products for NA consumption.

Where I dis-agree with DC is that infusion is clean, it’s nice for the workers but not very environmentally friendly.    Level of disposables needs to be dramatically reduced!

What a few builders, so E6E and Ovington (the ones I have seen) are doing with open wet-lay-up are far more environmentally sensible than infusion.     What is needed is the will to change and unfortunately that is not in great abundance.

Back to nb1, the wheel is turning, and we will all be forced to go green.   Some one previously commented that spending twice the money to go 5% faster is all a bit stupid, so the next breakthrough boat wont be a all carbon fantastic or even a partial carbon product.

The basic fundamentals of a body swung single hander just don’t stack up!

You need to use materials where they are warranted by their specifics, not by some wank-fest!     Huge case can be made for masts, far less a case for boom, and even less for foils or a cat-rigged, encaser mast, localised reinforcement, sure, and if you want to say that’s a Carbon boat, then be my guest, but it’s a fraud and frauds get found out.

Final point, given nb1 and all the un-certainties of WS then to build a single purpose factory anywhere in the world, hanging everything of one product is naive and won’t win you any brownie points with investors.

So in closing, 90% of the infusion I have seen in the world is horrific, 5% is amazing (WRT environmental consequences) so if DC wants to embrace that, all power to him.    Sure I have also heard lots but until the shovel hits the paid dirt then there is nothing, been there, done that!

                     jB

 

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1 hour ago, JulianB said:

Where I dis-agree with DC is that infusion is clean, it’s nice for the workers but not very environmentally friendly.    Level of disposables needs to be dramatically reduced!

 

What a few builders, so E6E and Ovington (the ones I have seen) are doing with open wet-lay-up are far more environmentally sensible than infusion.     What is needed is the will to change and unfortunately that is not in great abundance.

 

So I didn't plan on engaging so much in this thread. However, Julian I have to entirely disagree right back on the trash footprint of infusion. When you tool up like you mean it, it can be very tidy. 


DRC

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1 hour ago, Dave Clark said:

So I didn't plan on engaging so much in this thread. However, Julian I have to entirely disagree right back on the trash footprint of infusion. When you tool up like you mean it, it can be very tidy. 


DRC

Dave, as you know, I have never seen your plant, so it looks like you are on your way to being one of the 5%, and if that is the case, you need to be congratulated.

My comment was against the inference that infusion, as it's generally practiced cleaner than wet-lay-up, and I stand by my comments, it is not!

               jB

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On 1/3/2022 at 2:12 PM, Xeon said:

Interesting news .

I hope it turns out to be true as Wess will spontaneously combust though totally joy .:D

A NA builder would be nice and I would love to buy from Fulcrum (great company the the UFO is a total blast to sail... best toy ever) but that does not seem possible given the comment above. That said having already purchased 2 new Lasers last year, this year - 2022 - will be focused on trimaran cruising if all gores to plan.  I ain't sending no money to the bums at ILCA. They can pick somebody else's pocket LOL.

Happy New Year all.

PS - Just sailed one of those 2 Lasers in Charleston over the Christmas break... and then came home to a foot of snow WTF.

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7 hours ago, JulianB said:

So I agree with DC and also disagree with some aspects.

 

Few years back, I was part of a serious consortium looking at a USA build (ILCA), there where $$$, there where people and there was expertise.

 

I think we ended up in Sth Carolina and I was almost USA bound mid Covid.

 

Cold feet, jitters, what ever, it did not happen.   (nb1)

 

Not sure if it was part of that or as a a-side, SC (DC’s dad) and I did have a conversation in a similar vain.

 

As part of that due-diligence we certainly looked at Mexico and Canada and on paper, both look more appealing, but it depends on where and more importantly whom.

 

All that was pre the stupidity in logistics cost that presently beset us, that stupidity would only increase the viability of NA made products for NA consumption.

 

Where I dis-agree with DC is that infusion is clean, it’s nice for the workers but not very environmentally friendly.    Level of disposables needs to be dramatically reduced!

 

What a few builders, so E6E and Ovington (the ones I have seen) are doing with open wet-lay-up are far more environmentally sensible than infusion.     What is needed is the will to change and unfortunately that is not in great abundance.

 

Back to nb1, the wheel is turning, and we will all be forced to go green.   Some one previously commented that spending twice the money to go 5% faster is all a bit stupid, so the next breakthrough boat wont be a all carbon fantastic or even a partial carbon product.

 

The basic fundamentals of a body swung single hander just don’t stack up!

 

You need to use materials where they are warranted by their specifics, not by some wank-fest!     Huge case can be made for masts, far less a case for boom, and even less for foils or a cat-rigged, encaser mast, localised reinforcement, sure, and if you want to say that’s a Carbon boat, then be my guest, but it’s a fraud and frauds get found out.

 

Final point, given nb1 and all the un-certainties of WS then to build a single purpose factory anywhere in the world, hanging everything of one product is naive and won’t win you any brownie points with investors.

 

So in closing, 90% of the infusion I have seen in the world is horrific, 5% is amazing (WRT environmental consequences) so if DC wants to embrace that, all power to him.    Sure I have also heard lots but until the shovel hits the paid dirt then there is nothing, been there, done that!

 

                     jB

 

 

 

@JulianB Can you clarify what nb1 is for the un-initiated?

 

Thanks!

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3 hours ago, Wess said:

A NA builder would be nice and I would love to buy from Fulcrum (great company the the UFO is a total blast to sail... best toy ever) but that does not seem possible given the comment above. That said having already purchased 2 new Lasers last year, this year - 2022 - will be focused on trimaran cruising if all gores to plan.  I ain't sending no money to the bums at ILCA. They can pick somebody else's pocket LOL.

Happy New Year all.

PS - Just sailed one of those 2 Lasers in Charleston over the Christmas break... and then came home to a foot of snow WTF.

If it happens it will not be Fulcrum.  Where did you launch when you sailed down here?

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16 hours ago, Dave Clark said:

You wonder why. 

DRC

Well English is my second language but I think I mean how.  They “why” is presumably because they think they can make money, actually more money than any alternative investment they could make. 

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Absolutely no sane person has ever gone into the Business of building small racing sailboats because it was seen as the best financial possibility for investment.

in fact, that statement pretty much applies to anything having to do with sailing. 

Those of us who serve sailing do so because the personal rewards exceed the value of the money we could have accumulated instead. 
 

fact:

If you think there is a person doing something anywhere in the world of sailing who is in it purely for the money you are a misguided ignorant person. 

 

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4 hours ago, RobbieB said:

If it happens it will not be Fulcrum.  Where did you launch when you sailed down here?

Yea if you read the thread Dave and Steve make that pretty clear!!

As to where... where the Admiral told me too!  Hey I can't give away to much information... too many plaque nazis round them there parts LOL.

More seriously, we were staying on a friends yacht and so got the boats out of the clubs and took them to the marina and kept them there while we were down.  Made it easy to get in an early morning or late evening sail.  Great freaking weather while we were down.  Hated to leave.

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14 hours ago, JulianB said:

So in closing, 90% of the infusion I have seen in the world is horrific, 5% is amazing (WRT environmental consequences) so if DC wants to embrace that, all power to him. 

 

13 hours ago, Dave Clark said:

However, Julian I have to entirely disagree right back on the trash footprint of infusion. When you tool up like you mean it, it can be very tidy. 

 

11 hours ago, JulianB said:

Dave, as you know, I have never seen your plant, so it looks like you are on your way to being one of the 5%, and if that is the case, you need to be congratulated.

My comment was against the inference that infusion, as it's generally practiced cleaner than wet-lay-up, and I stand by my comments, it is not!

Sorry for the continued off topic conversation, but this reminds me there is nothing new in the world. 38 years ago, I was boatbuilding and concluded that what wass then referred to as vacuum injection moulding was the way forward. We had a moulded male mould that was both thin and fairly flexible but far less injection points to current infusion methods. For me, there were 3 big benefits. The first was that it was a closed mould system which stopped styrene levels building in the workshop, the second was the cost savings in reduced consumables (compared with vacuum bagging) and finally, a consistent product. We weren't in business long as an electrical fire destroyed the factory and I didn't have the energy to restart, but I was convinced it was the way to go and considering what Dave says above, I am even more sure of it now.

The relevance to an ILCA thread? Well, in 1981 or1982 (I think that's the correct date) while having a Guinness with some of the guys from Laser International, or whatever it was called back then (pretty sure Tim Coventry was there) at the London Boat Show, I told them that the Laser needed to be built that way or it would die! So I didn't get that prediction quite right, but what it does show is that there really isn't anything new, just ways of reinventing the same old thing for a modern world.

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17 minutes ago, Gouvernail said:

Absolutely no sane person has ever gone into the Business of building small racing sailboats because it was seen as the best financial possibility for investment.

in fact, that statement pretty much applies to anything having to do with sailing. 

Those of us who serve sailing do so because the personal rewards exceed the value of the money we could have accumulated instead. 
 

fact:

If you think there is a person doing something anywhere in the world of sailing who is in it purely for the money you are a misguided ignorant person. 

 

Bull.  If you think Chris Turner invested hundreds of thousands of dollars to become an ILCA builder for the fun of it then it is you that is a misguided ignorant person.  

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2 hours ago, Gouvernail said:

Absolutely no sane person has ever gone into the Business of building small racing sailboats because it was seen as the best financial possibility for investment.

in fact, that statement pretty much applies to anything having to do with sailing. 

Those of us who serve sailing do so because the personal rewards exceed the value of the money we could have accumulated instead. 
 

fact:

If you think there is a person doing something anywhere in the world of sailing who is in it purely for the money you are a misguided ignorant person. 

 

Gouv doesn't seem to remember a fellow by the name of Rastegar...

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14 hours ago, JulianB said:

My comment was against the inference that infusion, as it's generally practiced cleaner than wet-lay-up, and I stand by my comments, it is not!

               jB

That does help add context to the readership here. The possible misread of "Dave says he wants to infuse because its greener" does really mischaracterize the facts. Brevity has risks. I'm in fact advocating for net parts under silicone bags, which I generally simplify when I write. Julian's right about conventional infusion being a nightmare. See the above video to see why. Open molding with no vac bag is actually more materials efficient than conventional infusion by a mile. 

I don't generally feel the need to quibble but I'm overbearingly, gratingly, proud of what we've done as a team. Four months ago we finally cracked down into an even leaner mode on the UFO bags by bringing the number of feed lines down by 87%. And the only thing holding us back from achieving even further gains on the UFO bags has been the scary durability of the originals. The bags in that video are still the only bags on the UFO line, hundreds of hulls later. 

Ironically, we would draw significantly more heat from the EPA by bringing on a wet layup line for dinghies in significant volumes. I do the compliance and permitting work. This in itsself does showcase a problem with many environmental regulations. Not one code pushed us to reduce waste going into dumpsters. Stuffing a zillion tons of consumables into a landfill is super cool with the EPA.

DRC

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12 hours ago, yoyoboy said:

@JulianB Can you clarify what nb1 is for the un-initiated?

 

Thanks!

  

12 hours ago, yoyoboy said:

@JulianB Can you clarify what nb1 is for the un-initiated?

 

Thanks!

Obviously I am not an American but it's obvious to blind Freddy that there are states and there are states, which is why North Sails is setup, across the border in Nevada rather than California, so we where on the hunt for a warm state, you are far better off producing polyester boats in 25-27C than you are in 12-15C, you just get a better boat, (Ovington and Nautivela don't allow their factories to drop under 19C) and we where not looking at a small size facility so labour laws came into it and then there where environmental laws, and the probability of future actions.

You can argue global warming, and you may well be right, regardless, in the eyes of the investors we where dealing with, they expect a level of "greening" in the states that worked for us, and that had a cost.

We never hit the correct level of enthusiasm and I was not keen on being lock into the US for 6 months, so it shrivelled.    As some one who knows the numbers and done the due diligence, I understand why people don't build in Australia and in USA and in Switzerland, but do build in New Zealand, in Asia, in the UK etc etc.

WRT styrene, I have always been of the opinion that in the case of infusion, it comes out via the vacuum pump, it still exits the reaction, but being sucked out down a tube rather than venting to the air.

One thing I am absolutely aware of is if you infuse an epoxy laminate onto a polyester gelcoat the bond (epoxy - polyester) is stronger than just about any other chemical reaction I know of, and I put that down to all the volatiles in the polyester, inc styrene, being forcibly dragged out of the mediums down the pipe.

WRT open lay-up, I think the Ovington 29er silicon bags are over 200 pulls, they are far simpler than infusion bags, there is far less excess resin disposed off and given we bond green, there is no peel ply.      I set of bags services 3 sets of moulds, Chris dose it very well, hopefully I will see his new facility in February!   The greatest amount of wastage in a 29er is the gunwale cut off, and you get that regardless.

As I commented I have never been in DC's workshop, but I have been in very impressive infusion facilities, E6E, Chinese and I think it was South Africa and they had wastage down to very low levels, but they where still higher than what we get to with wet-lay-up and say 29ers.     Across the fence at other boat building places with std infusion, they bragged about 500% effective wastage, I don't know how you would ever get to that level.

But we expect to have to go infusion, not because it's greener, but because it trendy.

As some of you may be aware on another part of this site, I am building a all PET cored and all Basalt 89er for me myself and I, to go have fun for the next 5 years.

If you get the right Basalt, it's MPa is 485 and that compared to std Carbon at MPa of 500 (sure hi end carbon is 700, but you don't use that in std layup, just like you don't use garden variety Basalt (who's MPa is 320).

If we get that right, we will be able to drop the laminate weight and therefor the resin usage by upwards of 40%.

That will net far more environmental benefits than going infusion.

Bottom line guys, can't see ILCA's being built anywhere in the USA because of your liability/legal system and environmental considerations.

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7 hours ago, JulianB said:

WRT styrene, I have always been of the opinion that in the case of infusion, it comes out via the vacuum pump, it still exits the reaction, but being sucked out down a tube rather than venting to the air.

Counterpoint from me and my trendy infusion-friends: If that's true, my pump room would be pretty uninhabitable from the eye-watering styrene fumes. Instead it doesn't smell of styrene at all, rather of hot dust and vacuum oil. In fact to get the effect of outgassing from open molding through the vacuum lines you'd probably need to be volatizing the styrene inside the part (boyles law- pressurizing a thing to the point that its temperature becomes a working boiling point) which is fatal for the part if you can make it happen. Styrene, being a diluant doesn't need to outgas. When kept contained it coreacts with the resin matrix and stays out of the air. Wet layup is like slicing an onion before pan frying it. Each fresh layer outgasses and makes your eyes tear up. Infusion is like deep frying the whole onion without chopping it. No air exposure.


-Also everyone should definitely check out the 89er thread on sport boat anarchy regarding Julian's latest build. He's being excessively modest about the whole thing. The pilot project on an extremely promising new material is only one of many extremely cool facets to that build/design.

I'm feeling very guilty about basically singlehandedly driving this thread off course. But on the other hand, is anyone who knows anything about the above rumors actually going to spill the beans?

DRC

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14 hours ago, Wess said:

Yea if you read the thread Dave and Steve make that pretty clear!!

As to where... where the Admiral told me too!  Hey I can't give away to much information... too many plaque nazis round them there parts LOL.

More seriously, we were staying on a friends yacht and so got the boats out of the clubs and took them to the marina and kept them there while we were down.  Made it easy to get in an early morning or late evening sail.  Great freaking weather while we were down.  Hated to leave.

Weather wise it was a banner December down here.

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14 minutes ago, Dave Clark said:

Counterpoint from me and my trendy infusion-friends: If that's true, my pump room would be pretty uninhabitable from the eye-watering styrene fumes. Instead it doesn't smell of styrene at all, rather of hot dust and vacuum oil. In fact to get the effect of outgassing from open molding through the vacuum lines you'd probably need to be volatizing the styrene inside the part (boyles law- pressurizing a thing to the point that its temperature becomes a working boiling point) which is fatal for the part if you can make it happen. Styrene, being a diluant doesn't need to outgas. When kept contained it coreacts with the resin matrix and stays out of the air. Wet layup is like slicing an onion before pan frying it. Each fresh layer outgasses and makes your eyes tear up. Infusion is like deep frying the whole onion without chopping it. No air exposure.


-Also everyone should definitely check out the 89er thread on sport boat anarchy regarding Julian's latest build. He's being excessively modest about the whole thing. The pilot project on an extremely promising new material is only one of many extremely cool facets to that build/design.

I'm feeling very guilty about basically singlehandedly driving this thread off course. But on the other hand, is anyone who knows anything about the above rumors actually going to spill the beans?

DRC

I've promised not to.... I think we'll know more by Spring here in NA.

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6 hours ago, RobbieB said:

Weather wise it was a banner December down here.

My brother lives there now and he was saying it was 62deg yesterday...it was 32deg here while I squeegeed melted snow out of my garage.

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3 hours ago, Dex Sawash said:

Is that "soon"?

Based on the way things have progressed through this saga I'd say yes.  It's less than 1 business quarter away.

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8 hours ago, Dave Clark said:

Counterpoint from me and my trendy infusion-friends: If that's true, my pump room would be pretty uninhabitable from the eye-watering styrene fumes. Instead it doesn't smell of styrene at all, rather of hot dust and vacuum oil. In fact to get the effect of outgassing from open molding through the vacuum lines you'd probably need to be volatizing the styrene inside the part (boyles law- pressurizing a thing to the point that its temperature becomes a working boiling point) which is fatal for the part if you can make it happen. Styrene, being a diluant doesn't need to outgas. When kept contained it coreacts with the resin matrix and stays out of the air. Wet layup is like slicing an onion before pan frying it. Each fresh layer outgasses and makes your eyes tear up. Infusion is like deep frying the whole onion without chopping it. No air exposure.


-Also everyone should definitely check out the 89er thread on sport boat anarchy regarding Julian's latest build. He's being excessively modest about the whole thing. The pilot project on an extremely promising new material is only one of many extremely cool facets to that build/design.

I'm feeling very guilty about basically singlehandedly driving this thread off course. But on the other hand, is anyone who knows anything about the above rumors actually going to spill the beans?

DRC

Dave, we are both pulling roughly in the same direction,  so we should probably leave it at that.

Drop a volitile substance to 0.2 bar, it boils off, or it dose here.

Atleast it's easier to catch, I'm not a chemical engineere so what happens to the structure of the resin if you leave it in, and mayube you are doing that via cooler temps, to be honest I don't need to know.  

What I do know is that ILCA's and 29er's that are built in +20c temps, open gassed are really robust bits of kit.

The future is PE, and either thermo forming or roto-moulding, if you really want to be green.

Come down here some day and go 89er sailing, or get you dad down here, I would enjoy showing him Magnetic Island,

                 jB

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8 hours ago, Dave Clark said:

I'm feeling very guilty about basically singlehandedly driving this thread off course.

Shouldn't be. Far more interesting than the original topic.

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2 minutes ago, JulianB said:

Drop a volitile substance to 0.2 bar, it boils off, or it dose here.

Yeah, but if you can get the styrene to react before it is lost to air - and unless things have changed a lot since I was at college (1) the styrene is one of the primary constituents that make up the polymer - then you've got less monomer usage so less material cost.

(1) And they have, come to think of it, right out of the park. Its a horrifying concept that my career in the plastics industry was as long ago as WW2 was then! 

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2 minutes ago, JimC said:

Yeah, but if you can get the styrene to react before it is lost to air - and unless things have changed a lot since I was at college (1) the styrene is one of the primary constituents that make up the polymer - then you've got less monomer usage so less material cost.

(1) And they have, come to think of it, right out of the park. Its a horrifying concept that my career in the plastics industry was as long ago as WW2 was then! 

 

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The Polyester in polyester resin is styrene, 

Simplistically but accurately:

as a liquid or vapor, styrene is a whole lot of hex shaped carbon hydrogen molecules with an extra leg sticking out. as a polymer, styrene is a well organized grid that is “nearly inert.” 

the styrene smell is molecules that didnt participate in the chemical process that changed the individual molecules into a grid. 

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3 hours ago, WestCoast said:

I see an opportunity for a US based ILCA builder.

Says the guy who 1) controls the flow of the Chinese import into the market and 2) is already playing a dominant role in serving that market down to the end user level, including logistics and events. And those are only two in a cornucopia of reasons why Starting Line Sailing is overwhelmingly well positioned to set up and build ILCAs. Seize that opportunity!

Basically this whole thread has generated an in depth explainer on how firms in the dinghy business are specialized and distinctly non-uniform. 

DRC

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On 1/6/2022 at 3:35 PM, JulianB said:

Come down here some day and go 89er sailing, or get you dad down here, I would enjoy showing him Magnetic Island,

Count on it. I f*%kin' miss you, man. The pandemic has made this planet feel way too big all over again.

DRC

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5 hours ago, Dave Clark said:

Says the guy who 1) controls the flow of the Chinese import into the market and 2) is already playing a dominant role in serving that market down to the end user level, including logistics and events. And those are only two in a cornucopia of reasons why Starting Line Sailing is overwhelmingly well positioned to set up and build ILCAs. Seize that opportunity!

Basically this whole thread has generated an in depth explainer on how firms in the dinghy business are specialized and distinctly non-uniform. 

DRC

A quick Google was enlightening 

https://sail1design.com/industry-news-starting-line-sailing-acquires-zim-sailing-and-dwyer-mast-rigging/

 

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4 hours ago, Xeon said:

How do you buy a class association? :D

Get to someone in charge who cares more about personal wealth than the Class supports and become that person’s most reliable source of funding. 

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This is as good a place as any for another rumor...

I was out windsurfing on Pittwater a few hours ago and I saw a gold or yellow hulled Laser with what looked like a radial rig and a full boom length deck sweeper addition!

Is it the rumored new Laser rig or just someone screwing around with ideas??? :P

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On 1/9/2022 at 5:34 PM, torrid said:

See "The Laser Class".

See, "Sunfish Class".  Oh wait.  That might be under, "How do you hold a class association hostage." classification.

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4 minutes ago, Dave Clark said:

Most shocking thing in the picture is the sliding wing setup on the singlehander to the left. That's a choice.

DRC

The photo appeared today on the LaserPerformance Facebook page with the teaser, "Just another day at the office testing and upgrading. Soon we will have news!!"

 

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11 hours ago, Dave Clark said:

Most shocking thing in the picture is the sliding wing setup on the singlehander to the left. That's a choice.

Perhaps folding rather than sliding? I did that on my one off singlehander. Very convenient off the water but I suspect rather expensive to manufacture. 

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Personally I find the most shocking thing about this picture is the fact a fifty year old design looks and probably sails better than the other two boats :D:lol:

 

After all can anyone that knows the LP product range , name me a good boat designed and sold by LP since Rasty  took control of the company ? 

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On 1/21/2022 at 4:29 PM, tillerman said:

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What the heck is that thing on the left? 

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49 minutes ago, tillerman said:

News will be coming "soon."

LOL.  Like the NA ILCA builder!!

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  • 1 month later...

This week we submitted our application to be an ILCA approved hull builder in North America.

We would build the boats in our Rhode Island, USA factory.

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9 minutes ago, WestCoast said:

This week we submitted our application to be an ILCA approved hull builder in North America.

We would build the boats in our Rhode Island, USA factory.

Brilliant. Good luck with the approval process.

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3 hours ago, WestCoast said:

This week we submitted our application to be an ILCA approved hull builder in North America.

We would build the boats in our Rhode Island, USA factory.

Would you all consider different hull colors? I miss the yellow and blue hulls.

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1 hour ago, AvidSailor said:

Would you all consider different hull colors? I miss the yellow and blue hulls.

Great idea!  And for some that differentiation would be enough to buy a West Coast ILCA over the other mfrs. 

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9 hours ago, AvidSailor said:

Would you all consider different hull colors? I miss the yellow and blue hulls.

Hadn't thought about that, but, Zim is known for having color stripes on 420s....

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1 hour ago, WestCoast said:

Hadn't thought about that, but, Zim is known for having color stripes on 420s....

Not having to go out and buy more gelcoat is key and Zim runs some fun colors. A return to the fun colors of Sunfish Laser and Vanguard? 

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In the uk , coloured hulls and foils seem to be making a come back in a lot of classes.

 

It would be a very on trend thing for a new builder to do :D

 

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3 minutes ago, RobbieB said:

What was that you said.....?

 

Long time.  All well down there?  I missed out on the last trip down... just the wife.

And... so what has you feeling all sporty now?  The announcement a few days back?  Admit I didn't read it carefully, seemed like just another RFP.  Did you folks finally actually get a NA builder on line?

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48 minutes ago, Wess said:

Long time.  All well down there?  I missed out on the last trip down... just the wife.

And... so what has you feeling all sporty now?  The announcement a few days back?  Admit I didn't read it carefully, seemed like just another RFP.  Did you folks finally actually get a NA builder on line?

Zim has put in the paperwork to build ILCAs out of their facility in Bristol, Rhode Island, USA.

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1 hour ago, Wess said:

Long time.  All well down there?  I missed out on the last trip down... just the wife.

And... so what has you feeling all sporty now?  The announcement a few days back?  Admit I didn't read it carefully, seemed like just another RFP.  Did you folks finally actually get a NA builder on line?

Yes.  Feeling quite sporty actually.  Anyhoo- I'm betting the ILCA NA builder will be announced around this fall, (assuming the process takes 6 months or so).  If you still have your contraband boats down here and are around on a Tuesday or Thursday night this summer there's a couple of evening club series events you can sail in.  I'll even drag out my ILCA legal boat and join you.  

Seems like things aren't exactly going gangbusters in Portugal these days....

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57 minutes ago, Wess said:

Build or assemble boats from China?

Zim are already selling ILCAs built in China. 

According to  @WestCoast on this thread a couple of days ago, they would build hulls in Rhode Island once their application is approved.
 

On 3/5/2022 at 7:29 AM, WestCoast said:

This week we submitted our application to be an ILCA approved hull builder in North America.

We would build the boats in our Rhode Island, USA factory.

 

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23 minutes ago, tillerman said:

Zim are already selling ILCAs built in China. 

According to  @WestCoast on this thread a couple of days ago, they would build hulls in Rhode Island once their application is approved.
 

 

Well its not like ILCA has a great reputation for telling the truth so I have my doubts.  What they sell now are built and assembled in China. I am wondering if all they are doing is moving assembly to RI.  But time will tell.

Robbie says 6 months or Fall of 2022.  So many years does that make "soon?"  :P

Hey and @RobbieBI don't know about Portugal but things are going well in France!!

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On 1/3/2022 at 1:24 PM, RobbieB said:

So, I've heard someone is circling their wagons in NA to become an ILCA builder.....I think the next 6 months will be interesting.

 

1 hour ago, RobbieB said:

Yes.  Feeling quite sporty actually.  Anyhoo- I'm betting the ILCA NA builder will be announced around this fall, (assuming the process takes 6 months or so).  If you still have your contraband boats down here and are around on a Tuesday or Thursday night this summer there's a couple of evening club series events you can sail in.  I'll even drag out my ILCA legal boat and join you.  

Seems like things aren't exactly going gangbusters in Portugal these days....

OK so more than 3 months ago you said it would be 6 months.  Now more than 3 months later you still say it will be 6 months.  Do you by chance work for ILCA?  And have you heard of these things called calendars?  #SendMeMyRum  :lol:

I forgot how much fun this can be!!

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On 3/5/2022 at 5:29 AM, WestCoast said:

This week we submitted our application to be an ILCA approved hull builder in North America.

We would build the boats in our Rhode Island, USA factory.

@Wess shouldn't this be enough for you?  The owner of the company is telling you that they are seeking approval to build the hulls in Rhode Island, USA, right now.  

Do you work for Laser Performance?  There are containers of ILCAs coming to the USA and all over the world and people are getting excited about the class again, parts are available, things are moving forward.  Where is LP and the Laser at this point?  Does anybody have any new inventory?  I'm one of the last people you will ever see who wants to trash any sailboat or any builder but at some point you have to go with what's good for the sport and what's good for the sport is people able to buy boats and go sailing.  The ILCA has done just that.  They wrestled the class away from the brink and they've brought it back.

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15 hours ago, Wess said:

 

OK so more than 3 months ago you said it would be 6 months.  Now more than 3 months later you still say it will be 6 months.  Do you by chance work for ILCA?  And have you heard of these things called calendars?  #SendMeMyRum  :lol:

I forgot how much fun this can be!!

Actually, the current announcement is 3 months AHEAD of what I was expecting.  Everything you said, (and betted rum on) that would happen to ILCA has not happened.  The single builder/single build location "Laser" class appears to be dead and buried, (as expected).  We are just months away from the elusive ILCA NA builder becoming reality.  This is the last item in your book of negative check boxes being closed out and putting this speculative argument to bed.  #SendMeMYRum.  However, I'll play nice.  You can still sail your contraband in any open Non-ILCA/D12 class events here in Charleston Harbor.  Hobcaw YC and Charleston YC will be hosting non-D12 affiliated opens in July.  Unless their NOR's state ILCA class boats only, (which I doubt) you can have some organized racing fun that's not relegated to a Portsmouth fleet.  :P

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16 hours ago, tillerman said:

Zim are already selling ILCAs built in China. 

According to  @WestCoast on this thread a couple of days ago, they would build hulls in Rhode Island once their application is approved.
 

 

Considering they are simply getting the old Vanguard and US LPE production location back open I would not expect this move to be too difficult or time consuming.  The biggest challenge will probably be labor and maybe build supplies considering the supply chain delays.

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You would be shocked at where they have raced LOL!

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1 hour ago, Wess said:

You would be shocked at where they have raced LOL!

Still never seen one in the flesh.

Seen a couple for sale second hand on fb in the uk BUT every time someone asks if they are ILCA legal and they get withdrawn from sale. 
 

They might be cheap to buy new but they are almost impossible to sell second hand . 

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1 hour ago, Xeon said:

Still never seen one in the flesh.

Seen a couple for sale second hand on fb in the uk BUT every time someone asks if they are ILCA legal and they get withdrawn from sale. 
 

They might be cheap to buy new but they are almost impossible to sell second hand . 

I saw one that a buddy was looking at.  2019 model loaded with trailer, hardly sailed, yada, yada.  Asking $4,500.00.  First thought was "Whoa, that's a smoking deal!"  Then I asked him for a pic of the plaque in the cockpit and boom it was an impostor boat.  From a cost perspective it should have its market for club boats or a cabin lake boat, or local portsmouth fleet boat.  Just be prepared to own it forever, (assuming you can buy one in the first place).

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4 hours ago, Wess said:

You would be shocked at where they have raced LOL!

Most people don't care enough to walk the boat park to determine which boats are legal or not.  There may come a day that they need an ISAF sticker but back to what I was saying before, it's better for the sport and the class to turn a blind eye for a little while for the sake of the sport.

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