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1 hour ago, Xeon said:

I haven’t even heard a rumour. 

 

1 hour ago, Martin T said:

Exactly! Whats it all about?

Maybe it's not a dinghy, but RS Sailing are known for making boats.

The word "dinghy" did flash on the screen for about a tenth of a second.

RS seem to like these "teaser" video launches. I am sure we will see more over the next few days and weeks.

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2 hours ago, WestCoast said:

@Roller Skates is very warm here.

The LP boat was the 'Bahia' - which was popular with clubs/learn to sail programs.

Believe the first Toura will arrive in North America this spring.
Expect it to do well.

 

It'll be great to see a boat in the Bahia segment. Lighter would be lovely but I'm not sure if that's doable with rotomolding.

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2 hours ago, martin 'hoff said:

Lighter would be lovely but I'm not sure if that's doable with rotomolding.

Fingers crossed. Still have yet to see a truly effective rotomoulded alternative to 420/FJ in scholastic sailing. Here's hoping. 

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2 hours ago, Roller Skates said:

Fingers crossed. Still have yet to see a truly effective rotomoulded alternative to 420/FJ in scholastic sailing. Here's hoping. 

Just like the Opti, C420/I420 will be damn hard to displace. Network effects, etc.

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39 minutes ago, martin 'hoff said:

Just like the Opti, C420/I420 will be damn hard to displace. Network effects, etc.

Somewhat more possible if you control the import of Chinese C420s, AKA all C420s (Zim) and the have the only CFJ building setup left (Zim). George Yioulos' Starting Line Sailing holding company now owns both West Coast and Zim. So he's got the majority of the levers to give it a whirl. Go get 'em George!

DRC

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4 hours ago, Roller Skates said:

Fingers crossed. Still have yet to see a truly effective rotomoulded alternative to 420/FJ in scholastic sailing. Here's hoping. 

This is what I have wanted for years! We will still keep a couple fiberglass 420s for the few regattas a year we have to travel to with our own boats, but the vast majority of our high school regattas are in supplied boats. I would much rather maintain a fleet of plastic boats than a fleet of fiberglass boats that are sailed by beginning high school sailors.

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12 hours ago, Roller Skates said:

Fingers crossed. Still have yet to see a truly effective rotomoulded alternative to 420/FJ in scholastic sailing. Here's hoping. 

Roto builds beach boats and learner boats. Too heavy for race boats. So go ahead and quote the Feva in response. That's not a race boat.

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50 minutes ago, European Bloke said:

Roto builds beach boats and learner boats. Too heavy for race boats. So go ahead and quote the Feva in response. That's not a race boat.

Just because the Feva is relatively slow and sailed by kids doesn’t mean it’s not a race boat, it is. Works because it’s small.

 

But in general I do agree with you about roto boats . The main problem is that it just doesn’t scale up well . By the time you get over 12 foot long they are just too heavy and floppy to provide a good sailing experience. Certainly all roto boats I’ve sailed from laser/topper and RS have been very poor and if they had been my first experience of sailing , it would have been my last .

I have heard good things about some of the roto boats from Hartleys but I haven’t sailed any of them . I do have some hope they might be a little better than the offering from the other manufacturers as some of them were designed by Dan  Holman who cut his teeth designing the D-zero , which is a terrific boat . :D

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38 minutes ago, Xeon said:

 

I do have some hope they might be a little better than the offering from the other manufacturers as some of them were designed by Dan  Holman who cut his teeth designing the D-zero , which is a terrific boat . :D

Jo Richards, Phil Morrison et al are fantastic designers. They have all designed shitters for Topper/Laser/RS. They do so because the brief was for a shitter so a shitter is what they be paid for.

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3 hours ago, European Bloke said:

Roto builds beach boats and learner boats. Too heavy for race boats. So go ahead and quote the Feva in response. That's not a race boat.

That may be true, I have no experience as a boat builder. Some of the early fiberglass boats were really heavy and perform just fine though. The lido 14 is 310lbs. and performs about the same as a 420 with a 230lbs hull weight. (performance is at least in the same ball park) The Lido does not roll tack as easily, but it is also 6' wide. 

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5 minutes ago, European Bloke said:

The 420 is a 60's 50's design and weighs like one. It's a fat fuck, no one would design a boat like that now.

Oh, the hull is not completely terrible. The humps and hollows add rigidity to plain-vanilla fiberglass. And it sails sorta OK under a wide range of conditions.

The main design "feature" I find annoying is the way they scoop water in at the transom corner. I'd like a boat without that, please.

- DSK

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4 minutes ago, Steam Flyer said:

Oh, the hull is not completely terrible. The humps and hollows add rigidity to plain-vanilla fiberglass. And it sails sorta OK under a wide range of conditions.

The main design "feature" I find annoying is the way they scoop water in at the transom corner. I'd like a boat without that, please.

- DSK

1959i think. It's not really stiff, it hardly holds rig tension, and the boat doesn't really have a mechanism for applying much.

The 'recent' enhancement of the bracing to the CB case has helped a bit. Before that after 5 tough years suddenly the board wouldn't box and you knew she was a flower planter.

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4 minutes ago, European Bloke said:

1959i think. It's not really stiff, it hardly holds rig tension, and the boat doesn't really have a mechanism for applying much.

The 'recent' enhancement of the bracing to the CB case has helped a bit. Before that after 5 tough years suddenly the board wouldn't box and you knew she was a flower planter.

All true.

But you can plant really nice flowers in them  :rolleyes:

- DSK

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We've got some great materials available to us to build boat these days. All suitable for different purposes.

Carbon builds super light, super stuff racing boats that remain competitive in a way that boats never have before.

You can build excellent boats out of foam and epoxy that are a little heavier, not quite as stuff, but will still last for ages and cost a lot less.

You can get a mass produced non epoxy foam boat that's very decent, especially in a one design fleet.

You can get a roto boat that can take abuse like we could never have imagined before the Topper was launched.

Just don't use the wrong material for the wrong purpose, like roto for a race boat.

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On 1/15/2022 at 3:04 AM, European Bloke said:

Roto builds beach boats and learner boats. Too heavy for race boats. So go ahead and quote the Feva in response. That's not a race boat.

So here’s where your euro is showing. The USA relies on club raceboats. Nobody here goes “man the Bahia was fun, I think I’ll buy a 29er for my kid that costs as much as a car.” Which apparently is normal there? We need a boat we can roll tack, sail with 350lbs in the boat, but also can survive club ownership. Until that’s solved - sailing will stay where it is in the USA. 

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Roller skates , no one has said ‘ man that Bahia was was fun ‘ EVER on any continent lol .

 

You use then to teach people the basics of sailing , they then can buy boats that are responsive and fun and that DOESNT mean buying new 29ers. Just something second , third or fourth hand that gives the person some feedback and FUN.

If any club is using Bahia type boats for racing ,that’s just a route to extinction :(

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1 hour ago, Roller Skates said:

So here’s where your euro is showing. The USA relies on club raceboats. Nobody here goes “man the Bahia was fun, I think I’ll buy a 29er for my kid that costs as much as a car.” Which apparently is normal there? 

More or less, in the UK. Depends on the dinghy and the car. But club raceboats aren't the norm. We have some club boats but they aren't generally raced.

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23 hours ago, European Bloke said:

The 420 is a 60's design and weighs like one. It's a fat fuck, no one would design a boat like that now.

Very true but is still 100 better than the the BEST roto boat of the same size :D

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I don't buy into the binary thinking that a rotomolded boat can't be a race boat.
Nor do I believe it's even a sub-optimal platform for a racing class.

Is plastic heavier than glass or carbon?  Sure.
It is less stiff ?  Absolutely.

So what?

If it gets people on the water, safely and comfortably... that's the essence of how our sport grows.

It's like golf clubs, or skis or other equipment to me.  ANYTHING is better than nothing.
If someone has old skis, do we say they can't race?
If they have an old tennis racket, should we look down on them?

 

No way.  They are playing our game with us.  We should encourage them at every chance we get.

People that have fun on a Bahia, Feva, O'Pen Skiff, or SailCube....  racing each other.  Are they not really racing?
Sure, it's not an A-Cat or a Moth or whatever... but, why does that matter?

The more people we keep in sailing, the more people there will be to migrate up to the "better" race boats.
 

The talking down to plastic boats, or people who race them, seems counter-productive to me.
We're all sailors.  

The more people sailing, racing, having fun, making memories, building friendships - the better. 
No matter what the dang boat is made of.

 

 

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7 hours ago, Xeon said:
On 1/15/2022 at 12:09 PM, European Bloke said:

The 420 is a 60's design and weighs like one. It's a fat fuck, no one would design a boat like that now.

Very true but is still 100 better than the the BEST roto boat of the same size 

If it's one-design, why can it not be a race boat?

FFS some people race Flying Scots!

^_^

- DSK

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On 1/15/2022 at 9:04 AM, European Bloke said:

Roto builds beach boats and learner boats. Too heavy for race boats. So go ahead and quote the Feva in response. That's not a race boat.

Plenty of kids have a lot of fun sailing and racing Fevas. You can’t expect them to be careful with better but more fragile boats at that point in their sailing career.

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7 hours ago, dogwatch said:

Plenty of kids have a lot of fun sailing and racing Fevas. You can’t expect them to be careful with better but more fragile boats at that point in their sailing career.

I actually disagree based on my time racing optis. Damage needs to happen at some point to teach you care. It's better to cross that threshold early on a small cheap boat. Crunching the rail of your boat is a pretty hardening experience and teaches you very quickly to watch where you're going and where everyone else is going. I then jumped past 420s to skiffs. I can't really imagine what could have happened if all of us, when equipped with larger, far far faster boats, had believed that collisions and general impacts had no consequences. Probably a lot of injuries. Fast bumper cars just showcase the fragility of human bodies.

DRC

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I was thinking more of the business of getting on and off the shore, on the kind of pebbly wave-bashed beaches that are common for UK coastal clubs.  

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15 hours ago, WestCoast said:

I don't buy into the binary thinking that a rotomolded boat can't be a race boat.
Nor do I believe it's even a sub-optimal platform for a racing class.

Is plastic heavier than glass or carbon?  Sure.
It is less stiff ?  Absolutely.

So what?

If it gets people on the water, safely and comfortably... that's the essence of how our sport grows.

It's like golf clubs, or skis or other equipment to me.  ANYTHING is better than nothing.
If someone has old skis, do we say they can't race?
If they have an old tennis racket, should we look down on them?

 

No way.  They are playing our game with us.  We should encourage them at every chance we get.

People that have fun on a Bahia, Feva, O'Pen Skiff, or SailCube....  racing each other.  Are they not really racing?
Sure, it's not an A-Cat or a Moth or whatever... but, why does that matter?

The more people we keep in sailing, the more people there will be to migrate up to the "better" race boats.
 

The talking down to plastic boats, or people who race them, seems counter-productive to me.
We're all sailors.  

The more people sailing, racing, having fun, making memories, building friendships - the better. 
No matter what the dang boat is made of.

 

 

I didn't say you couldn't race it, I said it wasn't a racing boat.

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17 minutes ago, European Bloke said:

I didn't say you couldn't race it, I said it wasn't a racing boat.

What's the difference between a boat that lots of people race and a racing boat?

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I currently sail a development class boat.   When I'm getting changed, I overhear the fleet captain of the latest, greatest one design shitter of the month explain to his neighbour, a Laser sailor, how the latest greatest one design is so much better than a Laser because it's faster and more responsive, offering better racing.  When the Laser sailor leaves, the latest greatest fleet captain turns my way, and starts to explain to me his class is better because it's better racing, and speed doesn't matter as long as they are all the same.  Such is the duality of man.

I've raced carbon boats, wooden boats, fibreglass boats, plastic boats, I've raced aluminium boats, I've raced steel boats, and once even a concrete boat, it doesn't really matter.  I hope sooner or later someone will develop a proper plastic good value modern comfortable Laser alternative, so there is a class I can grow old disgracefully in, and be competitive without dropping 10 boat units (and bumping up my carbon footprint) every few years just to stay competitive.  Something.cheap enough to gain real critical mass, with a performance envelope that allows learners to learn, and racers to race, and big enough to suit average modern builds, how could it not succeed agains't the current fragmented market of failed laser replacement one designs?  The Foxer might have been onto something, Solo's offer great competition as long as you are 75kg.

 

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3 hours ago, Dave Clark said:
11 hours ago, dogwatch said:

Plenty of kids have a lot of fun sailing and racing Fevas. You can’t expect them to be careful with better but more fragile boats at that point in their sailing career.

I actually disagree based on my time racing optis. Damage needs to happen at some point to teach you care. It's better to cross that threshold early on a small cheap boat. Crunching the rail of your boat is a pretty hardening experience and teaches you very quickly to watch where you're going and where everyone else is going. I then jumped past 420s to skiffs. I can't really imagine what could have happened if all of us, when equipped with larger, far far faster boats, had believed that collisions and general impacts had no consequences. Probably a lot of injuries. Fast bumper cars just showcase the fragility of human bodies.

DRC

I think it's never too soon to place the expectation of good care on sailing kids. With high expectations, most kids will try to live up to them. The way I tried to structure lessons, kids were immersed in self-reliance from the first minute. We got the boats down from the rack, and they started learning terminology AND not smacking the boats around.

The first step is practicing steering, which we broke down into stages; and as soon as they were steering under sail, we started adding the concept of avoiding collisions by teaching how to STOP. Then as we added different points of sail, we also added simple right-of-way so that more kids could sail at one time. By the end of the week, I expected them to be able to sail around a circle of buoys with boats going in opposite directions, and avoid collisions appropriately.

The real problem was with some of the games, where all boats converge on a floating ball. Another was times of no wind, when they rafted up to talk and the boats rubbed together. But that's for future refinement, gotta let 'em have fun. And these incidents also strongly reinforce the lesson, don't use your hand for a fender!

- DSK

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Lurker here just signing up to join the rumor mill and place my bets. The topper Argo is incredibly popular with kids in the UK and races with GP14 and Enterprises. My bet is that it's an undersized RS Quest to compete with the Argo and C420.

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4 hours ago, maxstaylock said:

 

...I've raced carbon boats, wooden boats, fibreglass boats, plastic boats, I've raced aluminium boats, I've raced steel boats, and once even a concrete boat, it doesn't really matter...

 

;)

 

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I've sailed and raced boats of all construction types.   Boats can be designed to be built using rotomolded construction techniques and produce very fun boats to sail.   And if you have two of these boats within sight of each other, they are then racing boats :-)   No, seriously, any boat that is fun to sail can be raced against any other.   If rotomolded boats durability results in lower lifetime costs for fleet managers, it allows them to offer the opportunity to get more and more people out on the water.   The absolute performance of rotomolded boats will be lower than an equivalent fiberglass boat (which in turn will be lower than a carbon fiber boat).   Roto molded boats will be heavier and less stiff, all other things begin equal.   That doesn't mean that they are not fun to sail.  If well designed, they are a blast!   

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3 hours ago, Champlain Sailor said:

I've sailed and raced boats of all construction types.   Boats can be designed to be built using rotomolded construction techniques and produce very fun boats to sail.   And if you have two of these boats within sight of each other, they are then racing boats :-)   No, seriously, any boat that is fun to sail can be raced against any other.   If rotomolded boats durability results in lower lifetime costs for fleet managers, it allows them to offer the opportunity to get more and more people out on the water.   The absolute performance of rotomolded boats will be lower than an equivalent fiberglass boat (which in turn will be lower than a carbon fiber boat).   Roto molded boats will be heavier and less stiff, all other things begin equal.   That doesn't mean that they are not fun to sail.  If well designed, they are a blast!   

Name one, ( other than the Feva ) . 

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Plastic Boats with active Racing:

Original Topper is a plastic boat that is raced around the world for something like 40+ years.

RS Tera has racing around the world (World Championships at StFYC in 2023).  Very popular.

RS Feva has worldwide racing, growing all over.

Hobie Waves are raced around the world.

O'Pen Skiff is raced around the world, especially in warm water venues.
 


Between those five plastic classes, you're easily talking 25,000+ sailboats, maybe more like 30,000 with the Waves. 
There are others too, Topper has some other models, not as popular. 
There are plastic cats in Europe that I know nothing about.

 

Dismissing a boat's racing potential, because of what it's made of, is utterly silly at this point.
Let's move on.

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JY15 were made of a BASF thermoplastic, not sure of details but I understand the molds were heated and pressurized, and a rigid foam backing was part of the structure. These boats were heavier than fiberglass but hella strong, until they either got cold or degraded from a few years UV exposure. Back around 1990 I sailed the hell out of JY15s and although I never slammed the boat I was sailing into anything, I saw/participated in some of the most violent small boat collisions I've ever seen/heard. Like planing full tilt into a cement breakwall, or T-boning another JY also at full throttle.

These boats had some fairly major flaws but hull strength wasn't one of them.

Different from rotomolded, of course

- DSK

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I love what you do west coast and most of your views  but you are misrepresenting mine. 
 

All the boats you have mentioned ( other than the Hobie wave which I have never seen as it’s unknown in the uk ) are successful racing boats, I totally agree but they all  have one think in common, they are small . Which is why they work .
I have nothing against roto or injection moulding for boats at all.

BUT at this moment in time it just doesn’t scale up so doesn’t work for larger boats , you just end with a heavy floppy thing that gives you no feed back at all . These boats are fine for training boats but not for regular racing if we want to keep new sailors in the sport .

I really wish you could make roto boat as light and stiff as a laser or a 420 but at the moment the technology just does not exist and anyone pretending it does is just inflicting  dross on the next generation of sailors. 

Roll on the day when roto moulding technology CAN be scaled up and live up to its potential :D

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14 hours ago, Xeon said:

Roll on the day when roto moulding technology CAN be scaled up and live up to its potential :D

Topper's Xenon was used at the endeavour and then the Argo. I think I raced the xenon in 2012. It was pretty light winds but was okay. In fact I left a bit shocked at how okay it was. I mean, worse in almost every way to a fibre boat, but not enough to distract from the racing in the heat of the moment. 

They've never really been able to sell them as one design racing boats, not ones that organise events and have championships at least. 

https://toppersailboats.com/product/topaz-xenon/

https://toppersailboats.com/product/topaz-argo/

From the snippet of the press release looks like the Toura is larger and more freeboard than a feva. Also the boom looks pretty short so looks more like a training / learning boat. Plus the feva has a great fleet and established racing so can't see RS doing anything to disrupt that.

The feva is a great little racer but if you want family picnics or have older kids wanting to explore the lake then it's a little small and the freeboard makes it's pretty wet for t-shirt and shorts sailing. I guess the toura would fill that gap. However, RS do have the Quest, which seems to already sit nicely between the 'kids boats' and the very large trainers like the vision and venture.  It would be interesting to see what the differentiators are between those two. 

But, if it's aimed at family holidays, either private ownership or to sailing schools / outward bounds / holiday centres, then with things opening up in 2022 maybe now is just a good time to have a new dinghy in this category, even if it overlaps with the Quest from 2015. 

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On 1/16/2022 at 11:04 AM, Xeon said:

Roller skates , no one has said ‘ man that Bahia was was fun ‘ EVER on any continent lol .

 

You use then to teach people the basics of sailing , they then can buy boats that are responsive and fun and that DOESNT mean buying new 29ers. Just something second , third or fourth hand that gives the person some feedback and FUN.

If any club is using Bahia type boats for racing ,that’s just a route to extinction :(

In the US that 2nd third or fourth works thus for stepping up to race.=:

Vanguard 15, LY15. Oops both pretty much crashed. Forget that.

Thistle, Lightning, FScot, Snipe. Locally, Windmill (wish there were more) Comet, scow. Note that three of these are three handers.

Will the Melges 15 change this? Will the JY15 or the Vanguard 15 have a comeback? Not a single one of the current British Dinghies has an inroad here. Unless youuconsider the Viper to be a dinghy. It is in the sense that it takes 3 and fills the FS/Scot place. But all those numbered boats? Not present. We do have Quests and Bahias floating around in learn to sail and community sailing now. There are a few private owners.

Or--if you are really race inclined for dinghies, you step right up into a 505 or a Canoe, or a local go fast such as the E scow. Like me. Where all the real fun is. There isn't anything "in the middle" really in the market. 29ers I can count on one hand pretty much--even in Newport!

The good news is the 505 is a fantastic 2 hander with a real vibrant class association and a worldwide following.

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Am really sorry but I see no way out for American dinghy sailing. You seem to be stuck sailing boats that are considered junk in the rest of the developed world . And I see no chance of this situation ever changing . 
The bottom line is , rich people sail yachts , most everyone else doesn’t sail at all and anyone that does sail dinghys use boats that were cutting edge from 1900 to 1970 ( laser ). Ie over 50! years old .
If anyone like to disagree with me or suggest a way forward , please please post . 

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We are in a rebuild phase with U.S. dinghy racing... Interesting things are happening. UFO for instance. So what if it isn't a racing class? People are jazzed to sail them. That is the starting point--always should be.

Shoreline access is the biggest sticking point of all. Less of a problem seemingly in the interior of the country but I wouldn't rule out horseshittery there too.

Go to the "where in the world" thread and you see things of interest (as you know). In the U.S., dinghy racing is really a heartland game more than a coastal game. Yes, there are a lot of older classes. So what? If people love the game, they will play it. Cricket is no different fundamentally now than in 1865 when my old club founded...so what if sailboats are old classes? If the game is fun, people will play the game.

Out in the lakes all across the country, you have all sorts of happy racing going in. The Thistle is a big part of that. I used to race them out on the lakes. Not enough lakes and not for long enough. There are areas where the Y-flyer is active. OR the Interlake. Etc.  Big country.

There are some gems around club wise. I belong to one of them right now. I used to teach sailing at another years ago. It was in NJ on a commercial river. It has a storied past. There are all sorts o small boat communities that have nothing much to do with USYRU or Lympics or any of that. TSCA for instance, or the ACA. Yes, people race canoes that are not 10 square meters. I've been to TSCA meetups. So much fun. Just sailing. Plenty of people involved also race but separately. So yes, I envy the British sailing scene (who wouldn'? heck, I grew up racing a British class!) but I think we should look at what we have here and build on what people enjoy and see where it can lead.

 

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Oh and I should add that personally I just do not see how "plastic" boats are an improvement at all. Except for their waste stream recycle ability. Take a grand dame like the thistle and put it against any of these plastic things. I don't care who designed them. The thistle will eat any and all of them for lunch all day every day. So the plastic fantastics are not more fun to sail or more "modern." Just another way to build a boat to a price.

About the only new is that stuff that is light and fast and somehow more performance for the same material than something from long ago. We can all go down the Bethwaite rabbithole, or the Gybeset rabbithole (remember him?). But frankly nobody really gives a shit (except fanatics like me). There is this problem of the experience. Sailing a 10 sqm is totally different from sailing a 505. Which is different from sailing a melonseed. etc. Some boats have some quirks. Like the thistle. It hurts if you hike hard for too long. An "improved" hull design will go faster more easily than an older "obsolete" one. But that is never the total picture.

If everything was going to be about performance, then the whole world would be sailing 10sqm. But they aren't. Turns out you have to commit to that. And you have to learn some skills you never knew you needed to sail a boat. Some people tell similar stories about the 49er (frankly only half believe them haha. Please someone take me out on one to prove it:).

So then here we are. For the bulk of sailors, a difficult high performance dinghy shaped object is not going to be attractive. A fun boat will be. Melges 15 is proably a case in point. Compare to the One Design 14. Why did that come and go? Different decade--arguably a better one for sailing--but why? How many double trapeze boats are actually sailed even in places like Austrailia? VEry few if you add it all up.

So a new plastic fantastic class, versus an older Y flyer or Thistle or Scow--where is that better? It isn't. It makes it even harder to build the game.

In all small boat racing it is the fleet builders who make it happen. They buy new boats, and basically pass them down to everyone else. Or they do the same with used boats. I watched this with great interest and appreciation at my current club. One member was and is the bedrock of making that happen. A very enjoyable game developed--15 boats racing regularly. A class that had not been there. But an old class.

 

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  • 2 weeks later...
32 minutes ago, Roller Skates said:
2 hours ago, European Bloke said:

Nothing to see here. Move on please.

Are you the git that always cuts at the keg while lecturing the queue about how bad the beer is?

Unfortunately there's more than one like that. Dunno if EB is....

- DSK

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Maybe the Venture isn't selling well. Our club was lent one by RS for a few weeks. Really wasn't any good as a club boat in our context. Maybe others feel the same and are not buying.

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4 minutes ago, European Bloke said:

Didn't realise you had to be part of the RS fan club to post here. Sorry.

I do sort of agree with you , roto moulded boats of this size are rubbish from what ever company they come from .None of them are anywhere as good as things like , Wayfarer/wanderer/GP14. 

BUT what has this to do with being a RS fan boy or not . 

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4 hours ago, Dart96 said:

Maybe the Venture isn't selling well. Our club was lent one by RS for a few weeks. Really wasn't any good as a club boat in our context. Maybe others feel the same and are not buying.

I think the venture is a different beast. It's huge. You need a winch and vehicle (tractor) to launch if your ramp is steep or the beach is sandy. But it sails like a dayboat, fits 6 adults easy for a harbour tour including a cool box for drinks and lunch. 

This is a step smaller. Like I said, dimensions wise it's more a replacement for the discontinued Vision. More wander size than Wayfarer.  I wonder what is different / improved over the Vision. 

From what I can see some improvement will be the mainsheet hoop which gives something to grab hold of, but also makes sheeting the main to centre much easier. 
Also it has bench seats on the sides, which means you can put feet under your body, or stow things there.

It's seems to have a mount for an outboard, not sure that was possible on the vision. 

It's much beamier, especially to the stern. So won't be too quick in the light but will make it nice and stable and little more efficient on the plane. 

Greater white sail area with a on trend square top, but smaller kite. Could be quite quick on a tighter reach, but once gybing downwind in displacement a bit draggy. 

One thing I don't like is they still put the forestay behind the spinnaker chute. It's a very 'RS' thing, but in my opinion whilst it makes port sets easier but not worth it with a much smaller throat for the kite, lower pole which catches waves and making the jib quite tall and skinny. Maybe this is okay on a training boat though. 

RS Vision Sailing Dinghy – Mersey Weaver | Adventures

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The Vision got quite tippy once you passed a certain angle of heel - maybe this one is a little less 'surprising' in this regard.

The transom looks a little bit lower so it could be easier to get in and the mainsheet hoop is definitely an improvement.

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We have a Vision. Having raced more racier dinghies before I fully understand all the criticisms of it (although I would not have said it was particularly tippy), but I wanted to sail with my wife who didn't want a symmetric kite or a trapeze - and we launch off a shingle beach.

We previously had a 400 when they first came out which seemed just a bit too difficult and delicate 20 years on. And we're too heavy for a 200.

Vision is heavy, so we need help getting it up the beach, but then so are all the old similar-style dinghies that have symmetric kites anyway, like GP14, Wayfarer, Wanderer, whatever.

In the end it boiled down to Vision or a Laser 2000 and a Laser 2000 was about £3,000 more expensive than a Vision at the time (though still cheaper than a new GP, Wayfarer, Wanderer, whatever) and just as heavy.

It's heavy and floppy, but for club racing off a shingle beach it's pretty much bullet proof and it works for us.

 

 

 

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RS "RS Toura’s impressive internal space, allowing sailors to tour coastal waters with confidence"

I really don't see how this works. Our club has brought one of these to do the same job. Devon Yawl.

IMG-20220204-WA0004.jpeg

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  • 2 weeks later...
50 minutes ago, Seasailor said:

RS Toura - Modern, Cruising, Adventure, Family Sailing Dinghy - RS Sailing

More info now available.

175kg hull weight!

The Vision is said to have a 125kg hull weight and everyone that has ever tried to help me up the beach with it has commented on how heavy it is!

Yeah, but it can carry 7 people in winter coats, including what might be cute girls with pom-poms on their toboggans, and a dog, and a guitar.

That's gotta be worth something.

- DSK

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Bit hard to judge in zero wind. Does look like it is sailing out of my home club though. East head on the left, Chimet on the horizon to the right. Bit differnt weather to teh 70 knots we have here today! 

One thing I notice in these photos is they don't have a mainsheet hoop like they showed in the computer rendered image above. Instead it has a bridle. 

I would rather have the hoop... a block on a bridle in the middle of a boat, especially for learners does have the potential to smash some sculls! Looks like teh hole in thwart are still there to mount the hoop though.

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