mound of the hound

[Editor 1,240]

There is a boat in San Diego that I absolutely cannot fucking stand, and I am not alone in this. It is Staghound, the R/P 50 that despite years of mostly being poorly sailed with second-tier sails, has won a lot primarily due to the fact that the boat is quick, but has also been handed embarrassingly gifted PHRF ratings as well.

People have complained about it for years, but PHRF San Diego didn't do anything until the boat added a fat top main, longer sprit, and new rudder, but even then it was a gift (-3 seconds a mile if I remember correctly).

After a number of competitors bitched, it was brought up for a rating review about a year ago.  This rating review included some ORR data from a test certificate in an old and slower configuration.  Even with this data, the boat got an additional knock (I think 9 seconds) which they sailed with and continued winning,

Based on the original review, PHRF worked with a yacht designer and came up with a VPP spreadsheet to remeasure using both measured VPP and PHRF numbers and requested all PHRF negative rated boats get ORR measured (almost all already were) and rated, so that there was measurement data (and ratings) that could establish something more concrete than the bellyaching.

So guess who refused to get measured after 6 months of asking? You got it. And of course the reasons are obvious, especially from people who don't want a fair fight.  They still wouldn't comply, so PHRF hit them -6 as a blanket penalty for refusing to get measured to get the rating a bit closer to reality.  This penalty would be dropped as soon as they turned in a measurement certificate.

So what was their response? They asked for a refund from PHRF San Diego, pulled their already issued San Diego PHRF Certificate, and then entered the San Diego based Cabrillo series (first race of the year) using their SoCal PHRF cert which gives them another 15 seconds a mile advantage, as So Cal PHRF never gave them the 9-second knock that they took last year or the temporary  120 day -6 knock for refusing to get measured which is just the San Diego rating.

It is worth noting that Chuck Skewes, the sails salesman from Ullman Sails, who represented Staghound at the SD PHRF meeting, agreed to accept the 6 sec knock until they turned in their measured cert then went and did this anyway.  Funny, circumventing standard procedures and pissing off a fleet of larger boats and their owners who buy big, expensive sails doesn't seem like a good way to attract customers to me...

I think they blatantly subverted the system, by using the outdated and inaccurate -48 rating instead of the more accurate and recent SD PHRF issued. -63.  We're not sure it's actual cheating, but it is a chickenshit move that in no way meats the spirit of fair racing.  This boat is widely despised not only because of their continual rating fuckery, but because they strut around like they are the shit.  It's a fucking joke.

This is truly unsportsmanlike and not surprising for this group's truly blatant FU to PHRF and all their competitors. IMO, PHRF SD should refuse to issue them a certificate going forward.  I mean, if their SD cert wasn't good enough for this, why should it be good enough going forward? Fuck these guys. Almost all PHRF races here require each boat to have an SD cert.

Perhaps for this series, everyone in their class should race in the ORR division and let them have their PHRF pickle dish by themselves.  If they are willing to sell their soul (assuming there is one) for a trophy, then let them have it. - ed.

[some dude 201]

What's it rate?

[Irrational 14 418]

Coming from class sailing most of my life, I'm fairly new to this PHRF BS. Right away, I see plenty of whiners and manipulation to get the ratings they want.

Never understood why SD had their own PHRF certs to begin with. There's already PHRF SoCal. What's the story there?

I would understand regional adjustments, but an entirely different committee? This in itself makes little sense.

From what I've seen the SD ratings are all gifts regardless of the boat. A convoluted system revolving around a localized fleet. 

Clean it up and maybe the shenanigans stop. Easier said than done I know.

[Parma 434]

I wonder what Hoa (cashier at Von's) would think about this. How do you pronounce Hoa anyway? Why am I on the roof?

[fan 113]

This whole thing is beyond shenaninigans its border line 69 unsportsman like.  Amazing how desperate some are for a pickle dish I guess.

[Santanasailor 647]

I always marvel at the length people will go, expense be damned to win a $15 trophy.  

[Rain Man 1,988]

We gave up long ago on expecting PHRF to be fair.  Just go out and race.  Quite often we describe our result as "first after xxxxx" where xxxxx is a boat with a known soft rating.

All the lightweight race boats in my area were hit with a big penalty this year to make it easier for the 4kt shitboxes to win.  All that will do is shift the post-race discussion to who really won the regatta after the results are posted showing a 4kt shitbox winning.

PHRF is the worst rating system ever except for all the others.  At least it is cheap.

[pooodil 1]

What a load of wank.Skews and company have proven time and again on the race course what douches they are .This just confirms it .

[Livia 1,086]

Sure it is not a Tp 52, just asking for a friend!

[Rum Runner 410]

Hey Ed- Why not challenge the owner to a fight?  Meet at dawn around a burning pile of PHRF measurement forms.  Then pour engine oil over your naked bodies and wrestle until the winner prevails. You can even have Woody take side bets.  

[axolotl 216]

1 hour ago, Irrational 14 said:

Never understood why SD had their own PHRF certs to begin with. There's already PHRF SoCal. What's the story there?

I was on  the PHRF-SD Board for a few years and here's the story:  San Diego is so far south it's almost always a light air venue so  PHRF-SoCal base ratings do not accurately reflect a boat's potential due to the venue.  Having raced throughout So.Cal. there's some truth to that; when racing in LA your boat better be able to perform and handle 25kn winds while in SD they cancel races if it's gonna be that windy.  So serious SD boats optimize for light air with deeper/lighter sails (no penalty) and the big boys with dough mod with fatheads, oversize booms and poles, prods, modded keels & rudders and masthead kites to compensate and rating them accurately becomes difficult, they can take a rating hit but it pays off often, especially the one offs.

Concerning the Snaghound,  a decade ago they had some competition and didn't dominate as much as they do now, but as the fleet aged out (Dennis lost his mast, Wasabe folded due to the cost factor, Bad Pak never did get a fair rating because it was so radical, the Pennells have semi-retired, etc.) they no longer have viable competition and win every time.  You'd have to hit them with 20+seconds/mile to allow the remaining boats in the fleet to have a chance.  Note in Cabrillo 1 this year only had 3 boats in their fleet so the idea that nobody races against them anymore is actually happening.

Concerning Snaghound's crew complement, Alec, Chuckie (an MIR with a vested interest) and mission critical foredeck/trim  crew is competent, but in the last few years sailors I consider gumbies and just another pretty face have joined the roster and brag on FaceBook about their winning ride.  I suspect they're purely railmeat for local racing.  Correct me If I'm wrong, but the Snag was middle of the fleet in the big races like N2E over the last 6 years or so so its offshore rating  is reasonable or they fare poorly when confronted by big boy boats from out of town.

 

 

[Editor 1,240]

55 minutes ago, pooodil said:

What a load of wank.Skews and company have proven time and again on the race course what douches they are .This just confirms it .

One of my least favorite people on the planet. the slime just oozes. and that owner, i've disliked him for 30 years. throw in a few other complete twats, and there ya have it - shit stew!

[Editor 1,240]

9 minutes ago, Rum Runner said:

Hey Ed- Why not challenge the owner to a fight?  Meet at dawn around a burning pile of PHRF measurement forms.  Then pour engine oil over your naked bodies and wrestle until the winner prevails. You can even have Woody take side bets.  

that old fuck? sheeet....

[Editor 1,240]

1 hour ago, axolotl said:

I was on  the PHRF-SD Board for a few years and here's the story:  San Diego is so far south it's almost always a light air venue so  PHRF-SoCal base ratings do not accurately reflect a boat's potential due to the venue.  Having raced throughout So.Cal. there's some truth to that; when racing in LA your boat better be able to perform and handle 25kn winds while in SD they cancel races if it's gonna be that windy.  So serious SD boats optimize for light air with deeper/lighter sails (no penalty) and the big boys with dough mod with fatheads, oversize booms and poles, prods, modded keels & rudders and masthead kites to compensate and rating them accurately becomes difficult, they can take a rating hit but it pays off often, especially the one offs.

Concerning the Snaghound,  a decade ago they had some competition and didn't dominate as much as they do now, but as the fleet aged out (Dennis lost his mast, Wasabe folded due to the cost factor, Bad Pak never did get a fair rating because it was so radical, the Pennells have semi-retired, etc.) they no longer have viable competition and win every time.  You'd have to hit them with 20+seconds/mile to allow the remaining boats in the fleet to have a chance.  Note in Cabrillo 1 this year only had 3 boats in their fleet so the idea that nobody races against them anymore is actually happening.

Concerning Snaghound's crew complement, Alec, Chuckie (an MIR with a vested interest) and mission critical foredeck/trim  crew is competent, but in the last few years sailors I consider gumbies and just another pretty face have joined the roster and brag on FaceBook about their winning ride.  I suspect they're purely railmeat for local racing.  Correct me If I'm wrong, but the Snag was middle of the fleet in the big races like N2E over the last 6 years or so so its offshore rating  is reasonable or they fare poorly when confronted by big boy boats from out of town.

 

 

well said. there is no real talent on that boat - it's a fast r/p design specifically for sd. too bad he didn't get a nelson design, then it would be an actual hound. oops, better not make fun of nelson, the pretty face might get upset.

 

[SloopJonB 12,645]

3 hours ago, Editor said:

We're not sure it's actual cheating,

It is.

[jerseyguy 1,714]

4 hours ago, fan said:

This whole thing is beyond shenaninigans its border line 69 unsportsman like.  Amazing how desperate some are for a pickle dish I guess.

And it’s a good bet they don’t even like pickles 

[Blue Crab 2,471]

5 hours ago, Editor said:

Perhaps for this series, everyone in their class should race in the ORR division and let them have their PHRF pickle dish by themselves.

It's called collusion but I'm for it.

[PaulK 598]

5 hours ago, Editor said:

 

So what was their response? They asked for a refund from PHRF San Diego, pulled their already issued San Diego PHRF Certificate, and then entered the San Diego based Cabrillo series (first race of the year) using their SoCal PHRF cert which gives them another 15 seconds a mile advantage, as So Cal PHRF never gave them the 9-second knock that they took last year or the temporary  120 day -6 knock for refusing to get measured which is just the San Diego rating.

 

So why does the San Diego based Cabrillo Race Committee allow boats to use SoCal PHRF certificates? Perhaps PHRF San Diego could issue 'guest' certificates for racers from out of town for this series, for maybe $3.00 each? 

[pooodil 1]

Good question .And also how did the RC "SWYC" allow them to do that . Ian Trotter ?

[axolotl 216]

21 minutes ago, PaulK said:

So why does the San Diego based Cabrillo Race Committee allow boats to use SoCal PHRF certificates? Perhaps PHRF San Diego could issue 'guest' certificates for racers from out of town for this series, for maybe $3.00 each? 

Nope, that's how it works.  If you have an Area-G cert that's what you race with.  If you have a So-Cal cert that's what you race with *except* if you are a standard class boat you'll race with your sister ship's rating if one's rated in San Diego.  Usually that's a good thing as typical unmodified boats rate slower in SD.

Think of it this way, the So-Cal rating is harsh because it rates in all weather conditions and if you race exclusively in SD and get a local cert you'll get a rating boost of +3 to 12 seconds if you're a stock 4knot shitbox because you're racing in such a light air venue.  Sweet, and only $35(?).   Also you can game either system  by having multiple certs like an OD cert, masthead kites or not, and a PHRF cert and pick one for each race/regatta  based on predicted weather.  It's a complicated system, races that cover 2 venues (N2E) the SoCal cert controls but if you only have a SD cert they'll honor it if your boat is stock and guestimate penalties if you've made mods because they want as many participants as possible.  Clever owners play the game well and may have several certs in both venues, and battle in both arenas concerning mods penalties.

Snaghound has masterfully played the game, SD donkey punches them with a big rating hit blow 'em off and go with the So-Cal rating.  This after years of SD being lenient on them concerning their speed boosting mods over the years.  The key is any rating benefits are pure gold on the racecourse so have your reps like Chuckie constantly at board meetings defending your mods as inconsequential, claiming your boat, its equipment and crew is stellar and deserves its accolades. Jerking around your rating is cheap compared to spending big bucks for premium sails, top notch crew and naviguessers.

I raced for several years on a factory 43 footer that was unique in the venue, had sorta shitty sails, half competent crew, rail hiking was optional, never used the check/backstays to load up the genoa, the mast step chocks were broken so the mast noodled instead of stiffened, but it did have a 4 foot taller mast that it suffered no penalty for.  The owner is a master and more than once when we were trouncing the competition he'd slow us down in the final leg so the deltas tightened up..  Smart play, he was protecting his rating.

[Editor 1,240]

4 minutes ago, axolotl said:

Nope, that's how it works.  If you have an Area-G cert that's what you race with.  If you have a So-Cal cert that's what you race with *except* if you are a standard class boat you'll race with your sister ship's rating if one's rated in San Diego.  Usually that's a good thing as typical unmodified boats rate slower in SD.

Think of it this way, the So-Cal rating is harsh because it rates in all weather conditions and if you race exclusively in SD and get a local cert you'll get a rating boost of +3 to 12 seconds if you're a stock 4knot shitbox because you're racing in such a light air venue.  Sweet, and only $35(?).   Also you can game either system  by having multiple certs like an OD cert, masthead kites or not, and a PHRF cert and pick one for each race/regatta  based on predicted weather.  It's a complicated system, races that cover 2 venues (N2E) the SoCal cert controls but if you only have a SD cert they'll honor it if your boat is stock and guestimate penalties if you've made mods because they want as many participants as possible.  Clever owners play the game well and may have several certs in both venues, and battle in both arenas concerning mods penalties.

Snaghound has masterfully played the game, SD donkey punches them with a big rating hit blow 'em off and go with the So-Cal rating.  This after years of SD being lenient on them concerning their speed boosting mods over the years.  The key is any rating benefits are pure gold on the racecourse so have your reps like Chuckie constantly at board meetings defending your mods as inconsequential, claiming your boat, its equipment and crew is stellar and deserves its accolades. Jerking around your rating is cheap compared to spending big bucks for premium sails, top notch crew and naviguessers.

I raced for several years on a factory 43 footer that was unique in the venue, had sorta shitty sails, half competent crew, rail hiking was optional, never used the check/backstays to load up the genoa, the mast step chocks were broken so the mast noodled instead of stiffened, but it did have a 4 foot taller mast that it suffered no penalty for.  The owner is a master and more than once when we were trouncing the competition he'd slow us down in the final leg so the deltas tightened up..  Smart play, he was protecting his rating.

masterful? masturbating, perhaps. that fuck isn't capable of anything masterful. bullshitting, deception, ass licking and glad-handing, you bet. masterful? he gamed a weak system. i'd say those days are over.

[SCANAS 585]

Have you heard of IRC? 

[Left Shift 3,628]

So glad to hear that PHRF fucking up the big boat ratings isn't just localized to the PNW.  

Someone said above that "PHRF is the worst system except for all the others".  No, PHRF is only useful to convince a decently sized group of boats that they are "racing" and therefor they are having fun.  Well, they are having fun and all is fine ... until someone decides to take it seriously and someone else decides to care.  

But thinking PHRF has anything to do with serious racing is ludicrous.  Try it and you have an automatic clusterfuck.  

 

[Parma 434]

I don't see the connection between one boat gaming the system and the concept that because that one big minus rater boat gamed the system PHRF is terrible or that PHRF does not work for the vast majority.

If anything what happened here indicates that the local board is trying to keep the ratings fair, that the local board is more in touch with what local ratings should be and that local sailors should support the local board.

[Remodel 840]

21 hours ago, some dude said:

What's it rate?

-48

[maxstaylock 382]

When you see how hard it is to make a fair and accountable scientific measurement rating system, it's not surprising a rule of thumb system run by local amateurs for the benefit of their buddies should struggle to have any connection with reality.

Nobody has said it yet?

Friends don't let friends race PHRF

[Lex Teredo 383]

22 hours ago, Editor said:

There is a boat in San Diego that I absolutely cannot fucking stand, and I am not alone in this. It is Staghound, the R/P 50 that despite years of mostly being poorly sailed with second-tier sails, has won a lot primarily due to the fact that the boat is quick, but has also been handed embarrassingly gifted PHRF ratings as well.

People have complained about it for years, but PHRF San Diego didn't do anything until the boat added a fat top main, longer sprit, and new rudder, but even then it was a gift (-3 seconds a mile if I remember correctly).

After a number of competitors bitched, it was brought up for a rating review about a year ago.  This rating review included some ORR data from a test certificate in an old and slower configuration.  Even with this data, the boat got an additional knock (I think 9 seconds) which they sailed with and continued winning,

Based on the original review, PHRF worked with a yacht designer and came up with a VPP spreadsheet to remeasure using both measured VPP and PHRF numbers and requested all PHRF negative rated boats get ORR measured (almost all already were) and rated, so that there was measurement data (and ratings) that could establish something more concrete than the bellyaching.

So guess who refused to get measured after 6 months of asking? You got it. And of course the reasons are obvious, especially from people who don't want a fair fight.  They still wouldn't comply, so PHRF hit them -6 as a blanket penalty for refusing to get measured to get the rating a bit closer to reality.  This penalty would be dropped as soon as they turned in a measurement certificate.

So what was their response? They asked for a refund from PHRF San Diego, pulled their already issued San Diego PHRF Certificate, and then entered the San Diego based Cabrillo series (first race of the year) using their SoCal PHRF cert which gives them another 15 seconds a mile advantage, as So Cal PHRF never gave them the 9-second knock that they took last year or the temporary  120 day -6 knock for refusing to get measured which is just the San Diego rating.

It is worth noting that Chuck Skewes, the sails salesman from Ullman Sails, who represented Staghound at the SD PHRF meeting, agreed to accept the 6 sec knock until they turned in their measured cert then went and did this anyway.  Funny, circumventing standard procedures and pissing off a fleet of larger boats and their owners who buy big, expensive sails doesn't seem like a good way to attract customers to me...

I think they blatantly subverted the system, by using the outdated and inaccurate -48 rating instead of the more accurate and recent SD PHRF issued. -63.  We're not sure it's actual cheating, but it is a chickenshit move that in no way meats the spirit of fair racing.  This boat is widely despised not only because of their continual rating fuckery, but because they strut around like they are the shit.  It's a fucking joke.

This is truly unsportsmanlike and not surprising for this group's truly blatant FU to PHRF and all their competitors. IMO, PHRF SD should refuse to issue them a certificate going forward.  I mean, if their SD cert wasn't good enough for this, why should it be good enough going forward? Fuck these guys. Almost all PHRF races here require each boat to have an SD cert.

Perhaps for this series, everyone in their class should race in the ORR division and let them have their PHRF pickle dish by themselves.  If they are willing to sell their soul (assuming there is one) for a trophy, then let them have it. - ed.

Sail OD bro. I hear there's a nice 105 for sail out that way.  Lowers the stomach acid level. 

[sumpin 20]

jeez, all this time I just thought everyone else was just slower and dumber

[Meat Wad 776]

20 hours ago, axolotl said:

I was on  the PHRF-SD Board for a few years and here's the story:  San Diego is so far south it's almost always a light air venue so  PHRF-SoCal base ratings do not accurately reflect a boat's potential due to the venue.  Having raced throughout So.Cal. there's some truth to that; when racing in LA your boat better be able to perform and handle 25kn winds while in SD they cancel races if it's gonna be that windy.  So serious SD boats optimize for light air with deeper/lighter sails (no penalty) and the big boys with dough mod with fatheads, oversize booms and poles, prods, modded keels & rudders and masthead kites to compensate and rating them accurately becomes difficult, they can take a rating hit but it pays off often, especially the one offs.

 

And you guys race what?? 75% in the Bay, which nowhere in So Cal does.

This is purely a doing of San Diego PHRF, not SO Cal PHRF Regional. 

15 hours ago, axolotl said:

Snaghound has masterfully played the game, SD donkey punches them with a big rating hit blow 'em off and go with the So-Cal rating.  This after years of SD being lenient on them concerning their speed boosting mods over the years.  The key is any rating benefits are pure gold on the racecourse so have your reps like Chuckie constantly at board meetings defending your mods as inconsequential, claiming your boat, its equipment and crew is stellar and deserves its accolades. 

 

If So Cal Regional rated the boat way back then everything is in SD PHRF's court room. If I sailed there, I would file for a rating review with SO Cal Regional, citing misinformation given. Arm your self with tons of data, data is king. Start with the original So Cal Cert and then track the changes and how they were never hit for the mods. The Chief Handicapper is Dave Cattle and my time on the board saw him as pretty fair. Robert Plant is also there and he can be pretty harsh yet fair.

I also remember So Cal talking about not rating boats would be a minus rating. Minus boats are like trying to assign a rating to a boat the plans. Minus boats should be raced under ORR or IRC, what ever is used one the west coast.

One other thing I hated was a boat owner having an army join him at a review and almost never talked. Rather the band of boobs who made their living off the owner talked and constantly tried to BS with what I thought was sometimes, crap. 

 

 

[longy 855]

PHRF ratings arguments?  Same as it ever was, same as it ever was.

[Hitchhiker 1,158]

2 hours ago, Lex Teredo said:

 I hear there's a nice 105 for sail out that way.  

You heard wrong.

[sailsail 9]

This sounds like the same drama that every region deals with. I’ve seen it in Oklahoma, VT, DFW, Central Florida and Los Angeles. It’s just different in SD due to the money involved. 

[techdef 3]

Hmm, there's a certain white 52' sled in Marina del Rey which has almost the exact same story. Nobody knows what's under the hood and they're staying well away from any measured ratings bodies...

[ryley 683]

3 hours ago, Lex Teredo said:

Sail OD bro.

yeah because no one in OD classes ever cheats *Coughcoughbennetgreenwalditalianspeedshopsaussiefreakinetchellscoughcouch*

[Lex Teredo 383]

30 minutes ago, ryley said:

yeah because no one in OD classes ever cheats *Coughcoughbennetgreenwalditalianspeedshopsaussiefreakinetchellscoughcouch*

Dude, willya quit bothering me with facts and just let me troll the Ed. in peace?  LOL.  

Have a nice weekend, brother.   

[Swimsailor 1,701]

For those wondering, Staghound is 2 feet shorter and 2000 lbs heavier than TP52's from the same era.  I'm not defending them, I just see that asked a bunch.  It's an awesome boat and it's rating has never reflected it's awesomeness.  Hopefully the crew can pressure the owner to play fair.  

On a similar note, I love that the FP has thrown it back 20 years to bitching about SD Perf ratings.

[ryley 683]

16 minutes ago, Lex Teredo said:

Dude, willya quit bothering me with facts and just let me troll the Ed. in peace?  LOL.  

Have a nice weekend, brother.   

you too

[Running with Scissors 17]

I love it when Snaghound hits the committee boat in pre-start maneuvers. 

[gt-MTb 27]

Some people game the PHRF system for the best rating.

Some people pay $40,000 for a suite of molded black sails, for a 5ktsb that's worth less than $8k.

Some people do either or both of these to compensate mediocre sailing ability to get better results.

Some people run-what-they-brung, to the best of there ability, follow the rules even when people aren't watching, and after the race they don't waste their time bitching like little bitches...  these people are the definition of HTFU

Some people will never get it.

 

[sumpin 20]

6 hours ago, Swimsailor said:

For those wondering, Staghound is 2 feet shorter and 2000 lbs heavier than TP52's from the same era.  I'm not defending them, I just see that asked a bunch.  It's an awesome boat and it's rating has never reflected it's awesomeness.  Hopefully the crew can pressure the owner to play fair.  

On a similar note, I love that the FP has thrown it back 20 years to bitching about SD Perf ratings.

don't think the 52's bother to care ... and it's not just SD..any 50ish footers have watched as slagwound wandered around the course and still did just fine in the pickle dish chase. Most of the non 52 have crews that do plenty of OD sailing but enjoy a go of it and beverage on bigger boats thats mostly random leg or point to point with their pals.

Most owners don't want to bother with the local PH boards and so the decline continues.....I'll just go sail my "viper, etchells, finn, H 20, sabot, laser, Lehman" etc

 

[sailman 412]

13 hours ago, gt-MTb said:

Some people game the PHRF system for the best rating.

Some people pay $40,000 for a suite of molded black sails, for a 5ktsb that's worth less than $8k.

Some people do either or both of these to compensate mediocre sailing ability to get better results.

Some people run-what-they-brung, to the best of there ability, follow the rules even when people aren't watching, and after the race they don't waste their time bitching like little bitches...  these people are the definition of HTFU

Some people will never get it.

 

^^^^^This^^^^^

[BilltheoldCalguy 0]

My former club was formed and managed by guys like the skipper of Azzurra.  Who wouldn’t want to sail on that boat?

Bad sailors with fast boats and gift ratings, good sailors that bend and appeal the ratings until they win “boat of the year” for many years in a row. Coupled with a rating system that is only appeal and complaint driven has resulted in most corithians simply packing up and staying home.  Why doesn’t PHRF simply revisit results periodically and compare, modify and tweak ratings?  Just like never cleating the mainsheet when racing!

[Mike Hunt 50]

This is the kind of shit slinging threat that made me fall in love with SA in the first place.  We need more of this.

[Parma 434]

53 minutes ago, BilltheoldCalguy said:

My former club was formed and managed by guys like the skipper of Azzurra.  Who wouldn’t want to sail on that boat?

Bad sailors with fast boats and gift ratings, good sailors that bend and appeal the ratings until they win “boat of the year” for many years in a row. Coupled with a rating system that is only appeal and complaint driven has resulted in most corithians simply packing up and staying home.  Why doesn’t PHRF simply revisit results periodically and compare, modify and tweak ratings?  Just like never cleating the mainsheet when racing!

PHRFSD used to do an annual review, but it was laborious and subsequent boards lost interest in doing so.

[kinardly 318]

The owner was a prominent member of the SD PHRF ratings committee back in the day and learned all the tricks and possibly how to twist arms. The funny part is the other big RP, Blue Blazes, was heavier, older, for a while had the same rating and didn’t engage in this fuckery and still managed to beat them regularly. Alas, it’s been harder lately for BB to keep the years at bay. Great boat, great crew, skipper who’s a complete gentleman and plays by the rules but the assholes are wearing them down.
 

I think Ed’s right on this one, Staghound is a douche bag operation from top to bottom. And Ed’s not even competing in the same fleet with them so you can’t really say he’s whining. 

[HypnoToad 75]

13 minutes ago, kinardly said:

 

I think Ed’s right on this one, Staghound is a douche bag operation from top to bottom. And Ed’s not even competing in the same fleet with them so you can’t really say he’s whining. 

Well, ifn yer trying to win the PHRF-SD overall boat of the year, then the whine may have an agenda. Yes?

[Parma 434]

....or if you're trying to head off a possible review

[Trickey Pig 0]

9 hours ago, HypnoToad said:

Well, ifn yer trying to win the PHRF-SD overall boat of the year, then the whine may have an agenda. Yes?

Is there such a thing? 

[Chris in Santa Cruz, CA 947]

11 hours ago, kinardly said:

The owner was a prominent member of the SD PHRF ratings committee back in the day and learned all the tricks and possibly how to twist arms. The funny part is the other big RP, Blue Blazes, was heavier, older, for a while had the same rating and didn’t engage in this fuckery and still managed to beat them regularly. Alas, it’s been harder lately for BB to keep the years at bay. Great boat, great crew, skipper who’s a complete gentleman and plays by the rules but the assholes are wearing them down.
 

I think Ed’s right on this one, Staghound is a douche bag operation from top to bottom. And Ed’s not even competing in the same fleet with them so you can’t really say he’s whining. 

Except yes the fuck he is! Hell it was bottled up in the man it looks like.

[shebeen 479]

On 1/14/2022 at 4:09 AM, SCANAS said:

Have you heard of IRC? 

Seems like the obvious answer, but maybe the metric system will catch on first in the US.

[Bitter Gnat 81]

9 hours ago, Trickey Pig said:

Is there such a thing? 

Yep. We won it in 2003 with our Schock 35. They gave us a cool framed graphic dealio and a half hull at the big end of year party. Immediately afterward they lowered the Schock 35 rating to 66. Kinda made it tough for what was left of the S35 fleet (sorry). We had already purchased a 40.7 and sold the Gnat by the party. Good Times.

[Blackadder 11]

69, and you have ummm, shall we say, played fun with years.

[Bitter Gnat 81]

 

2004 and 69. Sorry. Time makes fools of us all.

Point being that yes there is (or was) a High Point Overall Boat of the Year award for the SD PHRF.

Here's proof of Cliffy and our youngest Gnatalie picking up the pickle dish.

 

[anzhu 1]

At our club we moved to ORC. Much better. More accurate results. Transparent. Objective. 
Our sailing office used to get rating complaints every week. Now there are none.

The only issue is the hassle of weighing and measuring your boat, but that is a one-off event and then you just renew every year for about 50USD.

I see ORC has been selected for Rolex Big Boat Series on the West Coast.

[Gouvernail 3,948]

PHRF… every week the times should be recorded and after about three races the handicaps should be adjusted so theoretically, if the same races were held again, every boat would have the exact same corrected time. 
 

There is no reason for politics or committees. Just make the math do the handicapping. 
 

People who steadily improve would win a lot and those who are fading wouid lose. 

 

new boats need to sail at least three races to establish a handicap. 
 

want to make it even better? Each  week, the boat that has the best corrected time and the boat with the worst corrected time are thrown out of that race and immediately re~ handicapped. 

[sailman 412]

7 hours ago, Gouvernail said:

PHRF… every week the times should be recorded and after about three races the handicaps should be adjusted so theoretically, if the same races were held again, every boat would have the exact same corrected time. 
 

There is no reason for politics or committees. Just make the math do the handicapping. 
 

People who steadily improve would win a lot and those who are fading wouid lose. 

 

new boats need to sail at least three races to establish a handicap. 
 

want to make it even better? Each  week, the boat that has the best corrected time and the boat with the worst corrected time are thrown out of that race and immediately re~ handicapped. 

So you prefer to rate the skipper and crew over the boat?  Why not apply the same principle to OD?

[Fonx 3]

7 hours ago, Gouvernail said:

PHRF… every week the times should be recorded and after about three races the handicaps should be adjusted so theoretically, if the same races were held again, every boat would have the exact same corrected time. 
 

There is no reason for politics or committees. Just make the math do the handicapping. 
 

People who steadily improve would win a lot and those who are fading wouid lose. 

 

new boats need to sail at least three races to establish a handicap. 
 

want to make it even better? Each  week, the boat that has the best corrected time and the boat with the worst corrected time are thrown out of that race and immediately re~ handicapped. 

No politics, but even more possibilities to play the handicapping, by sandbagging in most races, and going all in in only the ones that matter.

In my country, we moved also to ORC from what is our equivalent of PHRF. Had some pushback before from those who have old sails and badly prepped boat and like to whine about their rating. But after the move, everything is healthier.

So my 2 cents are: If your handicapping rules (or lack of them) let this kind of behavior, that Ed is talking about, happen, you cant really blame the boat doing this. Problem lies with committee for letting this happen while they could change the rules or even better, move to ORC

[SailRacer 123]

Hey!

Don't let the facts get in the way of a good (or bad) story.

[Hitchhiker 1,158]

On 1/20/2022 at 3:22 AM, anzhu said:

At our club we moved to ORC. Much better. More accurate results. Transparent. Objective. 

Where are you located?

[nolatom 590]

Why i prefer one-design racing.

In a fleet of say 20, you have 3 boats ahead or you and 16 astern, you actually know you're in fourth place.  And you know right away if that tweak you made, or tack you split on, helped, hurt, or neither.

Call it instant gratification, or at least awareness.

[carcrash 506]

Golf handicaps work well in golf.

We used to use golf handicapping in PHRF in Huntington Harbour, called it Huntington Harbour Handicap. Every regatta consisted of perhaps 4 races, and at the end of each regatta, ratings would be re-adjusted so everyone would have had identical times in the previous series. We had to introduce "ringer" adjustments so if a good sailor raced on a lousy boat (to help them sail better), the rating would get an often very large adjustment for those races.

Each person decided how full race they wanted to be. Race your Catalina 36 with the dodger up and a dinghy on davits, while another Catalina 36 is "full race" and the ratings might be 120 seconds per mile different.

The way to win was to improve over time.

It was a ton of fun!

[bigrpowr 268]

22 minutes ago, carcrash said:

Golf handicaps work well in golf.

We used to use golf handicapping in PHRF in Huntington Harbour, called it Huntington Harbour Handicap. Every regatta consisted of perhaps 4 races, and at the end of each regatta, ratings would be re-adjusted so everyone would have had identical times in the previous series. We had to introduce "ringer" adjustments so if a good sailor raced on a lousy boat (to help them sail better), the rating would get an often very large adjustment for those races.

Each person decided how full race they wanted to be. Race your Catalina 36 with the dodger up and a dinghy on davits, while another Catalina 36 is "full race" and the ratings might be 120 seconds per mile different.

The way to win was to improve over time.

It was a ton of fun!

were you racing sabots? 

[axolotl 216]

18 hours ago, carcrash said:

We used to use golf handicapping in PHRF in Huntington Harbour,

The way to win was to improve over time.

I understand the math,  but over time wouldn't your handicap get harsher and harsher until you ended up in the middle of the fleet?

[Controversial_posts 140]

On 1/21/2022 at 2:18 AM, Gouvernail said:

PHRF… every week the times should be recorded and after about three races the handicaps should be adjusted so theoretically, if the same races were held again, every boat would have the exact same corrected time. 

That’s dumb and would only reward consistently poor teams. 

[Mambo Kings 982]

I'm going to state the obvious!

PHRF is not for serious racing. Its for going out, sailing around the cans with some friendly competition among mates and getting back to the dock to buy beers for said mates.

If you care about your rating or someone else's rating  and think its important to win, or for someone else not to win, you are likely missing the point. The point is to let as many people win as possible. Especially grandchildren.

That is why Boston Yacht Club gets its Wednesday night PHRF series scoring right. (or at least it did when I lived there 10 years ago)

They added time penalties  to the boats in 1st 2nd and 3rd, which lasted 3 weeks. If you came 1st in week 1, and then despite the penalty finished 3rd the next week, then by week 3 you were carrying a heavy penalty. Basically, if you sailed half way well, you eventually got a pickle dish on a Wednesday evening....and that's the point right?  To make sure everyone who tries hard, has some fun and gets a trophy to help them feel good about being out there. If someone gets all huffy about trying to use a PHRF race determine who is the better sailor, or gives a shit about PHRF results, and wants to waste time fighting over PHRF ratings, tell them to relocate to San Diego .  

Ive sailed in a lot of PHRF events and had a lot of fun. I've raced in a lot of one design events and had a lot of fun. I was careful not to confuse the two.

I know that Dennis Connor has won 2 Star world championships, 2 Etchells world championships, one bronze Olympic Medal and three American Cups.   I have no idea how many PHRF trophies he has....and I doubt that he does either.

    

[Bitter Gnat 81]

9 hours ago, Mambo Kings said:

I know that Dennis Connor has won 2 Star world championships, 2 Etchells world championships, one bronze Olympic Medal and three American Cups.   I have no idea how many PHRF trophies he has....and I doubt that he does either.    

We have two of them. 1st in Class C and Best Overall for the 1998 Beer Can Series in SD. He helmed our Schock 35 and I got to sit next to him and trim main on all 10 races. These were the years that Dennis went out and won each class in different boats. He knew what boats to "appropriate".

[Mambo Kings 982]

1 hour ago, Bitter Gnat said:

We have two of them. 1st in Class C and Best Overall for the 1998 Beer Can Series in SD. He helmed our Schock 35 and I got to sit next to him and trim main on all 10 races. These were the years that Dennis went out and won each class in different boats. He knew what boats to "appropriate".

I gave most all PHRF awards to the crew.

There was an exception

Many years ago, there was a Boston Harbor series out of Constitution Marina, where we were one of an active small fleet of J22s participating in a larger PHRF fleet. Jack Carney  was doing trim and for some reason he started to take the series seriously and was very excited when we won the season in our class and overall across all classes.  Jack was an extraordinary talented sailor and sailed with me in some very competitive one design racing where we did well.  The Constitution series was 5 minutes from work on my way home and something fun to do on a summers evening....and at first,Jack was up for it because it between his art consulting office in the Back Bay and his sculpture studio on Cape Ann, and it involved cold beers on Boston Harbor. So I dont know why it suddenly became important to him. Perhaps it was because he wanted to impress the cute blonde windsurfer called Cindy we had picked up to do bow?  Anyhow it mattered, and he was insistent we all went to the awards dinner at the end of the season...... so we did.

At the dinner the Organizing Committee explained that they had decided in hindsight that the J22s could be scored separately as a One Design event for the season, and qualified for their own trophy , so that Division D and Overall went to two other boats. Jack was furious!.  At this stage I should explain that Jack is 50% Spanish from Spain (mothers side) and 50% Irish (father's side), which is a heady combination,  over 6'3", and a free spirited sculptor.  When Jack does "furious", he doesnt just tap the side of his wine glass in annoyance.

In this case, he rose to his feet, strode to the podium, grabbed the mike and said "That is fu**ing bullshit", knocked our trophy and several others to the ground and strode out of the tent.

I walked to the podium, picked up the trophy, and the mike, coughed gently, and thanked the Race Committee, our fellow competitors and my crew "including Jack, (and hopefully you all have a Jack on your boats), without whose evident passion for the sport we wouldn't all be down here every Thursday evening"

All's well that ends well. Jack married Cindy. I was best man. They have two great kids at college. Last I heard Jack's day job was a very popular waterfront director at Corinthian Yacht Club and at weekends he is out in his studio with chisel and welding torch.

That's my PHRF trophy story.

I haven't been up to Marblehead in a few years, so if anyone reading this post is from Marblehead and is passing by CYC, please stop in Jack's office and tell him that Justin considered it a privilege (and a highlight of my life) to sail with him for a decade and that his trophy is lurking around Marblehead some place if he wants to melt it down and incorporate it in one of his pieces. 

 

[axolotl 216]

Alec just celebrated his 80th birthday at his club and his crew gave him an engraved Seamaster; the party was great, lotsa floozies, booze, a band and grub.  As one commenter posted: "Great celebration for one of the real Yachtsman of San Diego."

[bgytr 510]

I know there has been a significant push to get ORR or at least ORRez there instead of the phrf craziness.  VPPs aren't perfect, but if implemented correctly they will almost always be more fair than phrf.  ORRez is not that expensive considering what people spend to campaign a racing program.  There seems to be a lot of inertia to hold on to phrf which is really puzzling.

[axolotl 216]

18 hours ago, axolotl said:

Alec just celebrated his 80th birthday at his club and his crew gave him an engraved Seamaster; the party was great, lotsa floozies, booze, a band and grub.  As one commenter posted: "Great celebration for one of the real Yachtsman of San Diego."

Pics or it didn't happen:

[fan 113]

Thats great.  Doesn't mean he isn't cheating the system.  Maybe the crew can ignore what is going on but every other bigboat in San Diego knows it and is over it. If in winning you loose the respect of your competitors....

[SailAnotherDay 0]

On 1/21/2022 at 2:18 AM, Gouvernail said:

PHRF… every week the times should be recorded and after about three races the handicaps should be adjusted so theoretically, if the same races were held again, every boat would have the exact same corrected time. 
 

There is no reason for politics or committees. Just make the math do the handicapping. 
 

People who steadily improve would win a lot and those who are fading wouid lose. 

 

new boats need to sail at least three races to establish a handicap. 
 

want to make it even better? Each  week, the boat that has the best corrected time and the boat with the worst corrected time are thrown out of that race and immediately re~ handicapped. 

Used to race Wednesday nights with a system like this. Top third of fleet loses three seconds a mile of rating, middle third no change, bottom third add three seconds. 
 

It was a challenge to beat a “OD” boat you owed 30 plus seconds a mile to, but it kept us looking for speed. 

[Hitchhiker 1,158]

23 hours ago, axolotl said:

Alec just celebrated his 80th birthday at his club and his crew gave him an engraved Seamaster; the party was great, lotsa floozies, booze, a band and grub.  As one commenter posted: "Great celebration for one of the real Yachtsman of San Diego."

That's a wealthy crew.

[notallthere 54]

On 2/8/2022 at 11:03 AM, fan said:

Thats great.  Doesn't mean he isn't cheating the system.  Maybe the crew can ignore what is going on but every other bigboat in San Diego knows it and is over it. If in winning you loose the respect of your competitors....

What a fuckin circle jerk for a bunch of tools. 2 of them told me straight up they did not care to have the respect of their competitors! It blew my mind. 

[Controversial_posts 140]

Umm so why dont the rest of the fast PHRF boats just race in ORR or ORC class, leaving him as the only competitor in his class?

 

[kinardly 318]

17 hours ago, Controversial_posts said:

Umm so why dont the rest of the fast PHRF boats just race in ORR or ORC class, leaving him as the only competitor in his class?

 

My take: The bulk of this fleet is older production race cruisers who frankly wouldn't have the desire to convert to a new handicap system and potentially have to reassess their competition. It's an unknown and folks don't always embrace unknowns. At the time the IOR fleet in this area was beginning to sink slowly into the sunset the local yacht clubs were the exclusive domain of race organization. A group calling itself Cortez Racing Association (CRA)was established to open up participation to non yacht club skippers, drawing in many boat owners who had long wanted to compete but for whom the exclusivity and financial cost of club membership was an obstacle. Many of their boats would not have faired well under any type of measurement handicap system (IOR, IMS, etc.). Most would have faired well under the only other option to PHRF, the old CCA inspired San Diego Handicap Fleet (SDHF), however this latter would have penalized later, IOR inspired designs. PHRF was the readily available handicapping solution although it had always had that susceptibility to subjective interpretation. PHRF was never the ideal solution, it was the best method on the table at that time. But now, PHRF is entrenched and I think it's a "better the devil that we know.." kind of thing.

[robalex117 159]

On 2/7/2022 at 7:21 PM, bgytr said:

I know there has been a significant push to get ORR or at least ORRez there instead of the phrf craziness.  VPPs aren't perfect, but if implemented correctly they will almost always be more fair than phrf.  ORRez is not that expensive considering what people spend to campaign a racing program.  There seems to be a lot of inertia to hold on to phrf which is really puzzling.

Not sure of how ORR is going but I think the future is ORC.  Where I race I need to get three PHRF ratings, three different areas, plus my ORC rating.  There is really no reason local PHRF is not replaced with the ez version which takes the same effort at getting a PHRF cert but is good everywhere. 

It will certainly give a lot of people more time to go sailing instead of working on the local PHRF committees.  

[robalex117 159]

37 minutes ago, kinardly said:

. But now, PHRF is entrenched and I think it's a "better the devil that we know.." kind of thing.

I agree PHRF is entrenched but don't agree with the devil we know.  VPP's have come a long way from when PHRF was first introduced.  Not surprising the biggest defenders of PHRF are the boats with gift ratings.