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Opinions, re: bluewater rigs


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So, I've been searching for a boat for long distance, bluewater sailing (not cruising, per se, more along the line of expedition sailing) and it's ticking all of the boxes, except one - it's a deck-stepped mast. The boat is custom; configured and built by the original owner to be seaworthy, so I'm surprised he made that specific decision. 

I've always been strongly biased toward keel-stepped masts, especially for offshore use and am wary that I wouldn't be able to shake being insecure about the strength of the rig when it gets rough. 

Am I making something out of nothing here? It's been a long search and I'm disappointed that I need to start again, but if my assumptions are correct then I need to accept it and move on to other options.

Thoughts? Personal experiences? Many thanks. :mellow: 

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If the rig is engineered properly for deck step configuration, it shouldn't be a worry.  There's a simple allowance in strenth requirements for deck stepped masts v. keel stepped.  The deck stepped might be a bit heavier, but it can have one big benefit- no leaks.

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29 minutes ago, Campylobacter said:

Am I making something out of nothing here?

yes, you are.

As bgytr says, if it is properly engineered it is just fine.

Deck stepped masts do offer the benefit of often being more water tight, and creating less of a hole if the mast comes down.  And less of a potential cold funnel into the cabin in high latitudes .

edit: I too like keel stepped masts, but I would certainly not discard an otherwise near perfect vessel because it was deck stepped.

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Evans has summarized it pretty well. If I had to choose between two otherwise equal boats, I'd pick keel stepped but it's hardly the most important criteria.

I sailed around the world with a deck stepped mast.... wait a second. It was a catamaran. They're all deck stepped. Damn.

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Bear in mind that keel stepped is prohibited in most French offshore sailing classes on safety grounds . True a keel stepped mast is more robust assuming that everything else is equal but deck stepped mast are engineered in consequence and you are much less likely to damage the roof with a failing mast that is deck stepped. Many will consider watertightness a higher priority than one less set of spreaders (often the consequence). Even if your boat is insubmersible with watertight compartments (nearly never the case on a cruising boat despite the obvious safety advantages), when green water gets inside you are in real trouble as the boat becomes barely able to operate.

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29 minutes ago, Zonker said:

Evans has summarized it pretty well. If I had to choose between two otherwise equal boats, I'd pick keel stepped but it's hardly the most important criteria.

I sailed around the world with a deck stepped mast.... wait a second. It was a catamaran. They're all deck stepped. Damn.

Team Philips must have been keel-stepped... just sayin':P

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1 hour ago, estarzinger said:

yes, you are.

As bgytr says, if it is properly engineered it is just fine.

Deck stepped masts do offer the benefit of often being more water tight, and creating less of a hole if the mast comes down.  And less of a potential cold funnel into the cabin in high latitudes .

edit: I too like keel stepped masts, but I would certainly not discard an otherwise near perfect vessel because it was deck stepped.

 

54 minutes ago, Zonker said:

Evans has summarized it pretty well. If I had to choose between two otherwise equal boats, I'd pick keel stepped but it's hardly the most important criteria.

I sailed around the world with a deck stepped mast.... wait a second. It was a catamaran. They're all deck stepped. Damn.

This is good to hear, as I’ve wondered about my own when the going gets rough.  It’s well stayed (inner forestay/aft intermediates, and two backstays; heavy tabernacle with 3/4” bolt.), but I’ve often wondered about the viability of a deck stepped mast.  

I recall Trevor of Iron Bark specifically spec’ing a keel stepped mast for his Wylie 35, which once got me thinking...

BBB79BCE-558F-42BA-8C40-8455DD788333.png

A7840AA1-BC78-47C9-ACB9-982FBD87DCE3.jpeg

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Class is in session:

The engineering of keel stepped masts and deck stepped ones is pretty similar.  Deck stepped masts are not as "fixed" a column as keel stepped ones. They have different end conditions and thus different effective lengths. ("L" in the formula below). Pcr = the critical load at which the column will buckle. Let's compare

image.png.970e4efdda2c729756220e9ab0b5a9fe.png

where:
E = modulus of elasticity. doesn't vary between mast types. It's a fixed property of the material (aluminum). "How stiff is this material"
I = moment of inertia. a geometric property of the section. "How far away from the middle is the mass" 
L = effective length.  If L = 1 in our example, for a deck stepped mast, L = 0.7 for a keel stepped mast. Trust me on this; you don't want to see the math.
But we're squaring L so L=0.7^2 = 0.49.

So deck stepped has to be about twice as stiff to reach the same critical load. The key point to understand: twice as stiff is not equal to twice as heavy.

Example:

If I have a rectangular hollow tube with dimensions 8" x 5" x 0.125" the moment of inertia in the transverse direction = 14.1 in^4
(this is sideways buckling between the deck and spreaders if you have spreaders)

If I increase this to 9.25 x 6.5 x 0.125" the moment of inertia increases to 28.5 in^4.

So by increasing the mast section just a bit, we can double the moment of inertia.
The weight increase is only ~20%.  But because it's a mast and is way up in the air, it's a lot of negative RM.

So if you're a race boat you'll usually go with keel stepped because it does have big performance gains. (Unless you have lots of RM like an Open 60)

If you're a cheaper builder you'll go for deck stepped because 2m of a metal compression most might be cheaper than 2m of fancy mast extrusion, even if you do have to install flanges on your compression post and bolt it separately.

Class dismissed.

 

 

 

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1 hour ago, Jud - s/v Sputnik said:

 tabernacle

idk anything at all about tabernacles.  Zonk could probably comment on the 'engineering'/dimensioning.

Can you actually lower/raise the mast using that pivot? Or does it sit on the deck and that pin is simply to secure it?

 

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I think the 'attracton' of a keel stepped mast for offshore work is that presumably you'd have a stump from which to set up a jury rig and self rescue to safe haven.  The watertight integrity argument is compelling however.

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2 hours ago, Panoramix said:

Bear in mind that keel stepped is prohibited in most French offshore sailing classes on safety grounds .

I'm curious - how/where specifically is the rule that prohibits it?  It is not in the OSR's, and not in the CE.  Is there a common rule that is somehow written into individual class rules across multiple 'french' classes?  Which classes?

I would be curious to see it; is it somewhere in the class 40 or mini rule? Can you link that?  Edit: I'm just looking at the class 40 rules (2019) and I do not see any prohibition on keel stepping? Do you not consider this a 'French offshore class'?

Is this quintessentially a french 'thing', or do any Italian or british classes use the same language?

I was aware of (strong) preferences on this topic but was not aware of (m)any prohibitions.

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The boat I built was designed with a deck-stepped mast. I had already owned a larger boat with a deck-stepped mast, but still agonized over it for a boat intended to sail around the world.

During this decision process, I spent the day at Greenwich (UK) making a pilgrimage to, among other things, look at Chichester's Gipsy Moth IV, which was on exhibit there. Looking at the boat, I realized it had a deck-stepped mast.

Never thought twice about it after seeing that.

As others have said, it's just a matter of proper engineering of the mast, its rigging, and the mast support system.

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Zonker covered the engineering. One difference that's been touched on is how graceful is a failure? If a shroud or stay lets go on the deck stepped, it's probably all over the side, but cleanly. On a keel stepped you might have something left to use, but the wreckage might be pretty knarly too. 

Of course unstayed is the way to go, and they are typically keel stepped. If the French have outlawed keel stepped, they've outlawed unstayed too. 

If I liked the boat I wouldn't discount it because of the mast step. 

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2 hours ago, Jud - s/v Sputnik said:

 

This is good to hear, as I’ve wondered about my own when the going gets rough.  It’s well stayed (inner forestay/aft intermediates, and two backstays; heavy tabernacle with 3/4” bolt.), but I’ve often wondered about the viability of a deck stepped mast.  

I recall Trevor of Iron Bark specifically spec’ing a keel stepped mast for his Wylie 35, which once got me thinking...

BBB79BCE-558F-42BA-8C40-8455DD788333.png

A7840AA1-BC78-47C9-ACB9-982FBD87DCE3.jpeg

Ooooh...tabernac.....le

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57 minutes ago, Veeger said:

I think the 'attracton' of a keel stepped mast for offshore work is that presumably you'd have a stump from which to set up a jury rig and self rescue to safe haven.  The watertight integrity argument is compelling however.

I randomly met a lady yesterday —well, not too randomly; I was working up my mast and she asked what I was doing, which led to a conversation, and she immediately grasped what I was talking about so I knew immediately she’d ‘done some sailing’— who’d recently come back from all over the Pacific.  She was describing to me a guy on a catamaran who lost his mast recently on the “clipper route” up from Cabo to California (the offshore route north that avoids the horrendous motor/bash to windward, the so-called Baja Bash).  She said he’d been lucky enough not to loose his boom in the dismasting, and had a spare sail or something, so used the boom to make a jury rig and sailed downwind to Hawaii...no keel-stepped stump available, being a catamaran...

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56 minutes ago, DDW said:

One difference that's been touched on is how graceful is a failure?

If a deck stepped mast comes loose and hops around on the deck until it punches a hole, plunges into the accommodating piercing the owners berth and then falls over the side tearing out a big chunk of deck as it goes, perhaps, just perhaps, the failure is not exquisitely graceful? Okay, that's a remembrance of a story about a rig coming down on a cat that I was told 20 years ago. Maybe it didn't go down just like that or maybe it's the exception to the rule. I suspect odds of a "graceful" failure are better with a deck stepped mast but it wouldn't be a make or break (as it were) point for me. I've sailed offshore on boats with both types.

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3 hours ago, estarzinger said:

Can you actually lower/raise the mast using that pivot? Or does it sit on the deck and that pin is simply to secure it?

My parents had a 31' sloop. The base of the mast had a big chunky aluminum casting with a semi-circle bottom shape. The tabernacle itself was less sturdy than that one in the picture. Maybe the bolt was 3/4". 

Dad and I raised and lowered the mast at the slip a few times. Used the spinnaker pole as a gin pole on the front of the mast. Halyard to bow, back to a cockpit winch. To raise it was a bit trickier. Getting the mast started was the hard part. We had a 2x4 with a plywood U shape attached to it. Used that in the cockpit to get it started until 8' above the cockpit, then the winch had enough grunt to take over as the angles were easier.

Most tabernacles that I know of are designed to lower the mast - otherwise you'd just have a casting for the mast butt to sit on.

Do it on a very calm day with no wind and none forecast. You do need sidestays to keep it all under control. Spin/main halyards let to blocks on the beam, and then back to any deck winch. Doesn't have to be super fair leads or pretty, but does have to keep that mast head from moving too much. Otherwise you have a very strong 40' crowbar attached to your tabernacle.

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3 hours ago, estarzinger said:

idk anything at all about tabernacles.  Zonk could probably comment on the 'engineering'/dimensioning.

Can you actually lower/raise the mast using that pivot? Or does it sit on the deck and that pin is simply to secure it?

 

Well, I guess that’s what it’s called- I didn’t know exactly what to call it and I was thinking as I typed it, “maybe a tabernacle is only the type of mast step that allows a mast to be pivoted in it?”

My mast doesn’t (ofc?) pivot in that step. It’s simply held there by the bolt.

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Yeah, I think the pivot point has to be a little higher.  If it pivots at deck level, it’s gotta be more of an external hinge.  Ala the good ol’ Hobie 16.  

Warm up by doing a few burpees

Insert hinge pin and teflon cup

rig temporary rope forestay, hold in teeth

Squat down and put mast on shoulder

HEAVE

draw in rope with one hand 

hop down and belay onto car bumper

proceed with rigging.

Well… that’s the way aging nerds do it.  I’m sure there are young beach boys who do it in a trice with one hand.

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I have a 40' mast that is hinged and have stepped and unstepped it many times.

As a practical matter, the most difficult part is removing the mast from the tabernacle and lifting/sliding it forward so that it is centered over the vessel for storage (or whatever), then moving it back and reattaching it to the tabernacle.  It is a lot of weight and bulk and typically there's a mast crutch that keeps the mast just out of reach of most crew who might otherwise help.  Overall I found it unworkable and that has been a major factor in moving to a larger vessel -- since one reason I had stayed small was to avoid the expense and logistics of mast service.

The actual hoisting is a piece of cake with the hardest part being making sure that none of the turnbuckles are fouled (or they will bend during the hoist).

 

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3 hours ago, weightless said:

If a deck stepped mast comes loose and hops around on the deck until it punches a hole, plunges into the accommodating piercing the owners berth and then falls over the side tearing out a big chunk of deck as it goes, perhaps, just perhaps, the failure is not exquisitely graceful? Okay, that's a remembrance of a story about a rig coming down on a cat that I was told 20 years ago. Maybe it didn't go down just like that or maybe it's the exception to the rule. I suspect odds of a "graceful" failure are better with a deck stepped mast but it wouldn't be a make or break (as it were) point for me. I've sailed offshore on boats with both types.

I'm trying to imagine the failure on a deck stepped marconi rig that allows the mast butt to hop around the deck without instantly falling over. I guess if you were lucky. Maybe if you are motoring or drifting in a bit of seaway, a rigging pin comes out but there isn't any pressure on the rig? Usually a marconi is a house of cards, pull one and it comes tumbling down. 

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1 minute ago, DDW said:

I'm trying to imagine the failure on a deck stepped marconi rig that allows the mast butt to hop around the deck without instantly falling over. I guess if you were lucky. Maybe if you are motoring or drifting in a bit of seaway, a rigging pin comes out but there isn't any pressure on the rig? Usually a marconi is a house of cards, pull one and it comes tumbling down. 

IIRC, the speculation was flexing of the cat in a seaway, somewhat loose rigging and some kind of failure of the step. But my memory is imperfect and it was second hand reporting.

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3 hours ago, 2airishuman said:

I have a 40' mast that is hinged and have stepped and unstepped it many times.

As a practical matter, the most difficult part is removing the mast from the tabernacle and lifting/sliding it forward so that it is centered over the vessel for storage (or whatever), then moving it back and reattaching it to the tabernacle.  It is a lot of weight and bulk and typically there's a mast crutch that keeps the mast just out of reach of most crew who might otherwise help.  Overall I found it unworkable and that has been a major factor in moving to a larger vessel -- since one reason I had stayed small was to avoid the expense and logistics of mast service.

The actual hoisting is a piece of cake with the hardest part being making sure that none of the turnbuckles are fouled (or they will bend during the hoist).

 

Well… if you are hoisting on your shoulder and something is snagged, it’s not the rig that bends.  Don’t ask me how I know. :ph34r:

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10 hours ago, estarzinger said:

I'm curious - how/where specifically is the rule that prohibits it?  It is not in the OSR's, and not in the CE.  Is there a common rule that is somehow written into individual class rules across multiple 'french' classes?  Which classes?

I would be curious to see it; is it somewhere in the class 40 or mini rule? Can you link that?  Edit: I'm just looking at the class 40 rules (2019) and I do not see any prohibition on keel stepping? Do you not consider this a 'French offshore class'?

Is this quintessentially a french 'thing', or do any Italian or british classes use the same language?

I was aware of (strong) preferences on this topic but was not aware of (m)any prohibitions.

OK, I double checked and realised that I was overstating things.. may be I remember this from old rules, I don't think that I've invented it !

In the Mini rules, it says that the mast may cross the deck if it is inbternally watertight from the foot of the mast to the exit of the first halyard

In IMOCA it is a one design mast that is deck stepped on a rotule.

For Class 40 as you said keel stepped is allowed, I had a look on google images and not everybody seems to have a keel stepped mast so the performance gain much not be that big or may be it is because there is a minimum weight for the mast that is high enough for a deck stepped mast.

@Jud - s/v SputnikI am pretty sure that your boat is deck stepped for practical and safety reasons, no need to be worried, it is built like a tank!

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7 hours ago, DDW said:

I'm trying to imagine the failure on a deck stepped marconi rig that allows the mast butt to hop around the deck without instantly falling over. I guess if you were lucky. Maybe if you are motoring or drifting in a bit of seaway, a rigging pin comes out but there isn't any pressure on the rig? Usually a marconi is a house of cards, pull one and it comes tumbling down. 

Catamarans deck stepped masts often sit on a socket which looks like a trailer hitch ball. They “can” become dislocated and cause damage. A sloop or Marconi rig sits solidly on the mast step-some through pinned, some not. I can’t imagine my 55’ mast jumping off its base with a thousand pound+ rig tension unless I try to go under a low bridge…

59B4E1A5-CC77-414B-B091-78C20CC2DC5D.jpeg

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11 hours ago, weightless said:

If a deck stepped mast comes loose and hops around on the deck until it punches a hole, plunges into the accommodating piercing the owners berth and then falls over the side tearing out a big chunk of deck as it goes, perhaps, just perhaps, the failure is not exquisitely graceful?

I guess this is a good reason to stick with mono hulls :D

Deck stepped masts….Last step before raising the mast, check each and every turnbuckle to assure they are free and properly aligned.  Been there, it gets expensive if you skip this step.  (Nice pun huh?)  That said, I have a couple really nicely bent turnbuckles.  One lives one learns.  

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3 hours ago, Sail4beer said:

Catamarans deck stepped masts often sit on a socket which looks like a trailer hitch ball. They “can” become dislocated and cause damage. 

 

I can see them coming off and causing some damage - on the way down. Once the mast is loose from its step, unless it immediately catches on something else, I'd think it would be horizontal in a very few seconds. I guess it could bounce off the step and punch through the deck on the first try, which would tend to hold it in place. 

My rotating mast sits on a ball Heim joint, the step does have retention features but it's mainly the 4000 lbs halyard load that would encourage it's staying there. 

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19 hours ago, Campylobacter said:

So, I've been searching for a boat for long distance, bluewater sailing (not cruising, per se, more along the line of expedition sailing) and it's ticking all of the boxes, except one - it's a deck-stepped mast. The boat is custom; configured and built by the original owner to be seaworthy, so I'm surprised he made that specific decision. 

I've always been strongly biased toward keel-stepped masts, especially for offshore use and am wary that I wouldn't be able to shake being insecure about the strength of the rig when it gets rough. 

Am I making something out of nothing here? It's been a long search and I'm disappointed that I need to start again, but if my assumptions are correct then I need to accept it and move on to other options.

Thoughts? Personal experiences? Many thanks. :mellow: 

Out of curiosity, what boat are you looking at/do you have in mind for expedition sailing?  I’ve got a personal interest in boats like this (though know little about them except by looking at Northanger’s, Pelagic’s etc sites), so am curious, if you don’t mind sharing.

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Thanks very much to everyone weighing-in. You've changed my mind and convinced me to get over it and move forward. I can understand now why on this particular boat they would want to avoid moisture/wet conditions from potential ingress. Never even thought of multi-hulls - maybe because we don't have many locally, so they aren't even on my radar. Can't say I've even ever sailed on one...  

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6 hours ago, Jud - s/v Sputnik said:

Out of curiosity, what boat are you looking at/do you have in mind for expedition sailing?  I’ve got a personal interest in boats like this (though know little about them except by looking at Northanger’s, Pelagic’s etc sites), so am curious, if you don’t mind sharing.

It's a one-off custom, built by the original owner. Haven't found any comparables online.

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1 hour ago, Campylobacter said:

It's a one-off custom, built by the original owner. Haven't found any comparables online.

Amy more info to share on the boat?  Just curious what you look for in an expedition type boat -e.g., Skip Novak’s vid walk-through of Pelagic comes to mind: 

 

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Nothing that extravagent. Or expensive. This is the first boat of my very own (at least since my Laser days as a kid), after decades on family boats, charters, crewing, and sharing, so budget, learning curves, and managability are keeping things small.

Looked for solid build, "old school" (meaning heavy and slow) bluewater hull, and prioritizing storage and utility over a modern interior, or comfort. Interior is quite bare bones and old, but I will likley be making some changes, (for example, I want a spacious chart table with a proper seat). One reason for choosing something not too precious in case I decide to apply the chainsaw.

Plan to add a stern tower for wind generator, radar, a kayak and surfboard, as well as some kind of heating system below. Once the deal closes will likely be posting here with more specifics and advice requests. I'm kind of leapfrogging from "first boat" directly into "expeditioning," and bypassing the whole "inshore/recreational" thing...

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6 hours ago, Campylobacter said:

Nothing that extravagent. Or expensive. This is the first boat of my very own (at least since my Laser days as a kid), after decades on family boats, charters, crewing, and sharing, so budget, learning curves, and managability are keeping things small.

Looked for solid build, "old school" (meaning heavy and slow) bluewater hull, and prioritizing storage and utility over a modern interior, or comfort. Interior is quite bare bones and old, but I will likley be making some changes, (for example, I want a spacious chart table with a proper seat). One reason for choosing something not too precious in case I decide to apply the chainsaw.

Plan to add a stern tower for wind generator, radar, a kayak and surfboard, as well as some kind of heating system below. Once the deal closes will likely be posting here with more specifics and advice requests. I'm kind of leapfrogging from "first boat" directly into "expeditioning," and bypassing the whole "inshore/recreational" thing...

Kinda what I did too.  (Or tried too, in a way :-).  Fate intervened in the form of getting married and a child after buying my boat, but I still have it, we’ve done a mini cruise to Alaska on it, and I’ve done a refit over the years, adding heat, new sails, and tons of other upgrades.) Had never owned a boat before, grew up occasionally inshore sailing, and jumped in head first with this one.  Wanted something I could comfortably sail to high latitudes, especially to ski/climb/winter over eventually.

Curious to hear more about your journey fitting out, etc., to follow along and learn/get ideas.  If you’re lucky, @estarzinger(and others) will chime in —he’s certainly “been around the block” a few times, and will have lots of good, relevant knowledge for an expedition-type boat.

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30 minutes ago, Jud - s/v Sputnik said:

@estarzinger(and others) will chime in —he’s certainly “been around the block” a few times, and will have lots of good, relevant knowledge for an expedition-type boat.

Go easy there.  Evans has done only two complete circumnavigations, and outfitted from bare hull only one expedition boat ;) :D 

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Expedition yacht = high latitudes = cold?

Keel stepped alloy mast = conduit for the cold from the outside to the inside.

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Rig failures are almost 100% caused by failure of standing rigging. Nothing to do with where it is stepped. 

Your prejudice against deck stepped mast is very common, old fashioned, out of date, and not based in fact. 

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12 hours ago, Jud - s/v Sputnik said:

Wanted something I could comfortably sail to high latitudes, especially to ski/climb/winter over eventually.

Curious to hear more about your journey

North. The broad strokes of a plan at this point are to leave Toronto head up the St. Lawrence toward NF, Baffin Island, Greenland, and then hop over to Iceland. Maybe stay there awhile and then figure out what’s next. 

Or, alternatively, take a left at Hudson Bay and do a circumnav of that. Great big area of nothing. I’ve only been as far as Moosenee (by canoe), and it boggles the mind just how big and desolate that part of the country is. 

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3 hours ago, Baldur said:

Rig failures are almost 100% caused by failure of standing rigging. Nothing to do with where it is stepped. 

Your prejudice against deck stepped mast is very common, old fashioned, out of date, and not based in fact. 

But prejudice against standing rigging is modern, up to date, and based in fact and statistic!

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1 hour ago, Campylobacter said:

North. The broad strokes of a plan at this point are to leave Toronto head up the St. Lawrence toward NF, Baffin Island, Greenland, and then hop over to Iceland. Maybe stay there awhile and then figure out what’s next. 

Or, alternatively, take a left at Hudson Bay and do a circumnav of that. Great big area of nothing. I’ve only been as far as Moosenee (by canoe), and it boggles the mind just how big and desolate that part of the country is. 

Hudson Bay is super interesting...trailering a boat there is one way to get there!  (Vid below) BTW, check out the journals of Hudson - interesting reading about his last voyage down into James Bay.  Also check out the film (YouTube), “People of a Feather”.

I’m also super interested to sail it, but am on the west coast of Canada for the at least the new coupla years, or at least don’t see myself getting that far inland soon!   The Aleutians are always appealing in that sense, i.e., the remoteness, (and lots to explore, albeit in a short seasonal window, but not easy to get to).

Keep us posted on your boat and plans as you go along!

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4 hours ago, Campylobacter said:

NF, Baffin Island, Greenland, and then hop over to Iceland.  . . . . Or, alternatively, take a left at Hudson Bay 

huge fascinating area, with tons of diversity within it.

and the weather in summer is (generally) pretty decent.  Often too little winds, with occasional force 10 snow storms.  We flew our spinnaker a ton around iceland and the faroes.

'it depends' (on a lot of things) but I did a solo trip to greenland and never lit the big cabin heater - used a bus heater and a big karo lamp.  If Beth had been on board she would have insisted we use the bigger heater a bit, but I just stayed super snug in a snowmoble suit during the colder times.

need big main ground tackle.  You can occasionally find good spots for shore ties if you know what you are looking for (and more so if you have a lift keel), but it is more of an 'huge main anchor and swing' area than the south is. 

good clothing is important.  I lived in very heavy sweat suits (probably better/higher tech options available, but these worked and I could let Beth just trash them at the end of the trip with no qualms) , dry suit and the snow mobile (gortex) suit.  Good boots - my fav are some dunlop freezer boots, lots of good hat options - my two favs here not very marine, a redneck filsons hunting hat with ear flaps and one of those classic russian rabbit fur hats again with ear flaps. Gloves are hard - I really never found the perfect pair - always a trade-off between warmth and ability to work with line - huge overmits with more agile gloves inside always seemed like the answer but I just did not ever get it to really work the way I hoped.  There are some decent commercial fishing rubber gloves with fleece inside which are pretty practical.

edit: and @Ciscois the expert on all this - listen to him - if he and I ever disagree you are better to follow his advice :) 

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4 hours ago, Jud - s/v Sputnik said:

 

 

Watched that last night. Nicely shot whole lot of empty. I haven’t done the math on distances to find help, but I’m guessing in some places you’re just as isolated as long haul ocean passages. Just because there’s land doesn’t mean there’s anyone, or anything, should things go sideways. 

Have you seen the interactive Arctic (and near) trip planning tool on one of the federal government websites? You can click on a location and sort different attributes, one being populated areas. Gives an idea of just how little is up there. 

Will search for that when I have time and post it here. It’s one of the gc.ca sites.

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1 hour ago, estarzinger said:

 I did a solo trip to greenland and never lit the big cabin heater - I just stayed super snug in a snowmoble suit during the colder times.

need big main ground tackle.  You can occasionally find good spots for shore ties if you know what you are looking for (and more so if you have a lift keel), but it is more of an 'huge main anchor and swing' area than the south is. 

There are some decent commercial fishing rubber gloves with fleece inside which are pretty practical.

You confirmed a few things for me:

- I’ll most likely be going solo. Envisioned spending a lot of time snugged up in my drysuit, which I imagine would mitigate some of the need  for a bigger heater. That and acclimatization. I’m a fat, sweaty, old bear and run hot as a furnace, so when I’m winter camping, or skiing multiple days in Quebec-30 weather I find I adjust to the cold very quickly and need less coverage to be comfortable. 

- I was just pondering the anchoring scenarios up there. Particularly in bad weather or ice, for extended stays.

- I’ve been spending a lot of time on the Grundens site. Figure if it’s good enough for commercial fishermen, it’s probably good enough for me. 

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30 minutes ago, Campylobacter said:

Yikes. Looks like some shitty, thin construction there. Body weight damage? Tanzer 22…?

50+ year old Cal 20. Done a bunch of miles on one. To me, looks like it was the failure of the starboard running light (obscured by the jib).

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1 hour ago, Campylobacter said:

You confirmed a few things for me:

- I’ll most likely be going solo. Envisioned spending a lot of time snugged up in my drysuit, which I imagine would mitigate some of the need  for a bigger heater. That and acclimatization. I’m a fat, sweaty, old bear and run hot as a furnace, so when I’m winter camping, or skiing multiple days in Quebec-30 weather I find I adjust to the cold very quickly and need less coverage to be comfortable. 

- I was just pondering the anchoring scenarios up there. Particularly in bad weather or ice, for extended stays.

- I’ve been spending a lot of time on the Grundens site. Figure if it’s good enough for commercial fishermen, it’s probably good enough for me. 

What season/temps are you looking at. Chilean Patagonia in winter doesn't get much below 0º Celcius.

I layer up with Icebreaker merino kit https://www.icebreaker.com/en-au/mens?prefn1=series&prefv1=260 Tech up to 4 layers or more . They have gone a bit poncy lately but still have good basic kit. Merino is good as it doesn't stink after a few weeks on.

Essentially over that on deck a basic fleece ( polyprop ) jacket and a Gill OS2 jacket https://www.wetsuitoutlet.co.uk/2021-gill-os2-mens-offshore-jacket-tango-os24j-p-27802.html

Mine is 'Roadworker dayglo greeny-yellow'. It was cheap, I don't think they make that colour any more.

 

Gloves?

Anchor and wet rope handling? Canadian 'Watson' brand that someone gave me.

On the helm and generaly out and about Heat3s with liner from these people https://www.theheatcompany.com/en-us/gloves

Down below in the evening possum wool from New Zealand.

 

Footware? I bought a pair of Muckboot Arctic Sport https://www.muckbootcompany.com/mk-artic-sprt-mid/ASM000A.html a few years ago. Bit of overkill, spend more time above and below decks in my Ugg Boots.

Added bit - a pair of lace up Sorrels for shoreside.

Thats about it really. Hope this helps.

Cisco - currently sitting under a fan in his underpants in Ecuador and dreaming of cold.

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1 hour ago, Borax Johnson said:

50+ year old Cal 20. Done a bunch of miles on one. To me, looks like it was the failure of the starboard running light (obscured by the jib).

Looks to me like the rigging is still there. I don't think a Cal 20 has a compression post - isn't the mast stepped on top of the passage through the main bulkhead? In this case, it may have just got tired and punched down through. The pictures do exhibit why, with a keel stepped mast, you want the failure point to be guaranteed above the deck. Otherwise it's just a big can opener. 

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Cal 20's have a beam running across under the deck, sitting on blkhds either side. About 24" of door IIRC. Those pics look like the beam failed first.

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2 hours ago, Cisco said:

Cisco - currently sitting under a fan in his underpants in Ecuador and dreaming of cold.

How is the situation in ecuador atm?

We have a friend who has a boat there, as of last summer they had not been able to visit since covid started, I'm not sure/have not heard whether they have yet gotten back.

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5 hours ago, Narwhal2 said:

Damage on a deck stepped boat

Thin layer of glass with a backing of masonite??

With gloves - lots of pairs, with several in rotation drying out.

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3 hours ago, Zonker said:

Thin layer of glass with a backing of masonite??

With gloves - lots of pairs, with several in rotation drying out.

Looks like a backing of Graham Cracker.

Watson fleece-lined gloves, several pairs. Warm even when wet. Oversize boots for an extra pair of socks.

8 hours ago, Campylobacter said:

Watched that last night. Nicely shot whole lot of empty. I haven’t done the math on distances to find help, but I’m guessing in some places you’re just as isolated as long haul ocean passages. Just because there’s land doesn’t mean there’s anyone, or anything, should things go sideways. 

I'd sooner be marooned on land next to the ocean than in the ocean with land on the horizon. Treading water just doesn't have much appeal compared to treading land.

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8 hours ago, estarzinger said:

How is the situation in ecuador atm?

We have a friend who has a boat there, as of last summer they had not been able to visit since covid started, I'm not sure/have not heard whether they have yet gotten back.

Pretty good. I'm  just  back from 'Straya for a fortnight to make sure that - despite her being a fixture on Google Earth - I still own a boat. Also to sort her temporary import papers which was easy peasy - given another six months.

She is on the hard at Puerto Lucia and considering she had been closed up for 26 months is in remarkably good order. No bird shit, just had to chuck out assorted foodstuffs. 

Getting into the country was easy - proof of vax and test 3 days before arrival. Flight from Melbourne was via LA and Miami -  a shocker - about 40 hours in airports and on planes..

Not much covid down here on the coast by all accounts., its a Quito/Guayaquil prob same as Australia being mainly Melb and Sydney.

V high vax rates, everyone but everyone wears masks simply everywhere including in cars and on mobikes. Vax cert to get into anywhere including shopping malls.

Life very normal - Oppies and Lasers are out everyday here at the Marina. A french sloop pulled in the other day, not sure where from but they are still on  the 'quarantine' mooring at the entrance to the marina. Big Spanish cat turned up yesterday,

Down south Marinetraffic  suggests the Peninsula trade is booming, two friends have just done a PW/Ush/PW run to get another 2 years and another friend just back from the Horn and about to sail via the inside and P Arenas to Rio.

So life seems very normal.

 

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14 hours ago, Narwhal2 said:

Damage on a deck stepped boat

D1F1E03F-8748-4338-B3DE-4FA1CAE5539D.jpeg

7E189024-DDCB-4429-922E-5BEB80C0E81F.jpeg

Obviously deck stepped needs to be done right with a compression post that is much more resistant than the mast on top of it. Easy to do as the post is short so anything with an inertia similar to the mast profile's will be several times stronger...

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1 hour ago, Panoramix said:
16 hours ago, Narwhal2 said:

Damage on a deck stepped boat

D1F1E03F-8748-4338-B3DE-4FA1CAE5539D.jpeg

7E189024-DDCB-4429-922E-5BEB80C0E81F.jpeg

Expand  

Expand  

Obviously deck stepped needs to be done right with a compression post that is much more resistant than the mast on top of it. Easy to do as the post is short so anything with an inertia similar to the mast profile's will be several times stronger...

I have the impression, from the photo, that this damage is largely due to lack of maintenance over the years as much or far more than the design. These boats (Cal 20) have many decades of tough sailing reputation, including a few passages, with no problems.

- DSK

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On 1/22/2022 at 8:18 AM, DDW said:

But prejudice against standing rigging is modern, up to date, and based in fact and statistic!

Im a big fan of the freedoms with their freestanding carbon masts. For several reasons, but mostly because the eliminate the standing rigging. 

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Correction to my last re gloves. I was just ratting around in the master's Stateroom and see that y cockpit gloves are not Heat3s that have the built in liner but 'Shells' https://www.theheatcompany.com/en-us/gloves/shell where the use of a liner is optional.

 

Some of the liners - one style can be seen here  https://www.theheatcompany.com/en-us/gloves/polartec-liner have 'fancy fingers' that allow you to use a touch screen while wearng them.

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