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The "so-called separation of church and state"


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Burning churches could become a national pastime.

 

..."The case is relatively straightforward: Boston's city hall generally flies national, state, and city flags on its public flag poles, though there are occasional exceptions. On Pride Day, for example, Boston will fly a rainbow flag. If foreign dignitaries visit Boston, the city's flag poles will feature the flag of the foreign officials' countries. 

With this mind, Harold Shurtleff, who represents a group called Camp Constitution, applied to have Boston fly a white flag with a red cross. He described it as a "Christian flag," at which point the city declined his request. Gregory Rooney, a local commissioner, concluded that Boston's city hall had to remain neutral on matters of faith. 

A legal fight soon followed, and the case made its way to the Supreme Court. By all accounts, given the dominance of conservative justices, Shurtleff is very likely to prevail, but consider an off-hand comment Gorsuch made during oral arguments: 

"As I understand it, Mr. Rooney said that he thought it was concern about the so-called separation of state, church and state, or the Constitution's Establishment Clause." 


Ordinarily, when we hear references to the "so-called" constitutional principle of separation of church and state, the rhetoric is coming from televangelists or far-right politicians eager to curry favor with activists in the religious right movement. 

This week, however, the phrase came from a sitting justice on the nation's highest court — suggesting he has a dismissive view of this bedrock principle of religious liberty."...(more) https://www.msnbc.com/rachel-maddow-show/gorsuch-derides-so-called-separation-church-state-n1287809

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7 minutes ago, random. said:

Fuck that.

In personal life I do not criticize anyone if they are religious, but it changes how I see them, capable of irrational thought.  Beliefs with no foundation.  Pretend friends and hearing voices is normally schizophrenia.

 

 

Do-gooder intolerance, I get that.

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2 minutes ago, random. said:

What the fuck are you talking about?

What has do-gooder got to do with this subject?

If your neighbour hung over the fence and told you he talks to people in the sky, that they reply to him and he relies on them to guide him through his day, would you be worried?

My favorite religious happenings are news reports of disasters.  The last great one I saw was of the American tornadoes where a little kid was found days later in a broken bath tub.  But this is what you get ...

"I want to thank the Lord for saving my little baby."

Yeah?  Really?  But the Lord made that tornado and he want those houses destroyed, otherwise they would not have happened!!!

No one curses god for making tornadoes.  Crazy as fuck hey?

You said you respect them until they profess religion, thereafter in your view, they become schizophrenic. Sounds like do-gooder intolerance to me.

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13 minutes ago, badlatitude said:

You said you respect them until they profess religion, thereafter in your view, they become schizophrenic. Sounds like do-gooder intolerance to me.

What's "do-gooder" got to do with anything? 

From my observations of the religious noisemakers around the world, it sounds more like intolerance intolerance to me.  And intolerance of intolerance is pretty well a rational position to take.  

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1 hour ago, badlatitude said:

Burning churches could become a national pastime.

 

..."The case is relatively straightforward: Boston's city hall generally flies national, state, and city flags on its public flag poles, though there are occasional exceptions. On Pride Day, for example, Boston will fly a rainbow flag. If foreign dignitaries visit Boston, the city's flag poles will feature the flag of the foreign officials' countries. 

With this mind, Harold Shurtleff, who represents a group called Camp Constitution, applied to have Boston fly a white flag with a red cross. He described it as a "Christian flag," at which point the city declined his request. Gregory Rooney, a local commissioner, concluded that Boston's city hall had to remain neutral on matters of faith. 

A legal fight soon followed, and the case made its way to the Supreme Court. By all accounts, given the dominance of conservative justices, Shurtleff is very likely to prevail, but consider an off-hand comment Gorsuch made during oral arguments: 

"As I understand it, Mr. Rooney said that he thought it was concern about the so-called separation of state, church and state, or the Constitution's Establishment Clause." 


Ordinarily, when we hear references to the "so-called" constitutional principle of separation of church and state, the rhetoric is coming from televangelists or far-right politicians eager to curry favor with activists in the religious right movement. 

This week, however, the phrase came from a sitting justice on the nation's highest court — suggesting he has a dismissive view of this bedrock principle of religious liberty."...(more) https://www.msnbc.com/rachel-maddow-show/gorsuch-derides-so-called-separation-church-state-n1287809

Let Mr. Shurtleff know his application was followed by dozens of applications for flags of other faith systems (Judaism to FSM to Islam to Zoroastrianism to Church of Satan to any others) and see how comfortable he is.

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1 hour ago, Bus Driver said:

Let Mr. Shurtleff know his application was followed by dozens of applications for flags of other faith systems (Judaism to FSM to Islam to Zoroastrianism to Church of Satan to any others) and see how comfortable he is.

Pffft.  Around here, we only allow the BEST religions to fly their flags.  Not any of those namby pamby make believe ones.

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3 hours ago, badlatitude said:

Burning churches could become a national pastime.

Burning black churches and synagogues has been something of a regional pastime for decades.  

Are you asking for equitable treatment?

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1 hour ago, Bus Driver said:

Let Mr. Shurtleff know his application was followed by dozens of applications for flags of other faith systems (Judaism to FSM to Islam to Zoroastrianism to Church of Satan to any others) and see how comfortable he is.

That should dissuade Justice Gorsuch from advancing his personal preference. I can't help but wonder what the other justices think about this.                                                    

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13 minutes ago, Go Left said:

Burning black churches and synagogues has been something of a regional pastime for decades.  

Are you asking for equitable treatment?

No, I just see that as a response that some people might resort in anger over such a decision.

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17 minutes ago, random. said:

Yep, and then you have the hide to ask for evidence when a climate change denier makes a claim.

I stay away from the climate debate. it's worse than arguing over religion.

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1 minute ago, badlatitude said:

No, I just see that as a response that some people might resort in anger over such a decision.

Cold compresses, a couple of tylenol and putting your feet up in a darkened room might calm your reason.

Exactly what "decision" was made before some "angry" someone decides to torch a black church or bomb a synagogue?

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2 hours ago, badlatitude said:

You said you respect them until they profess religion, thereafter in your view, they become schizophrenic. Sounds like do-gooder intolerance to me.

Could you help a few of us out here?

How did you jump from a a religious believer to a do-gooder? Do you see these words as synonyms?

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Well, about that OP . .  

Y'all need to understand that a faction of far-Riech christian "jurists" 

believe that it is totally OK for the STATES to establish an official religion to which all would be subject. 

I'll wager that Barrett and Thomas are also on board with that, and likely Alito too. 

Margaret Atwood saw it all coming down the pike . .  Handmaid's Tale 

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But unless I'm mistaken, it actually is the "so-called separation of state, church and state, or the Constitution's Establishment Clause"

Quote

Amendment I

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.

 

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1 hour ago, Se7en said:

Could you help a few of us out here?

How did you jump from a a religious believer to a do-gooder? Do you see these words as synonyms?

Certainly not all religious believers are do-gooders, some are downright mean assholes.

 

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44 minutes ago, valis said:

But unless I'm mistaken, it actually is the "so-called separation of state, church and state, or the Constitution's Establishment Clause"

Quote

Amendment I

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.

 

It is in fact the Establishment Clause, but the seperation of church and state is a lot more than just so-called.

One historical fact that a lot of people don't understand is that the Founders had zero intention of NOT having an official religion for the USA. But they could not agree on which one, so in spite, they agreed there could not ever be such. This averted a civil war between the states before there even was a Constitution.

- DSK

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1 hour ago, AJ Oliver said:

Y'all need to understand that a faction of far-Riech christian "jurists" 

You'd think as much as you use the term, that you could spell it.

AJ to **Dogballs** = Tom to .22 assault rifle

Both have been beaten to death, can we have a burial?

 

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1 minute ago, random. said:

And they already had 'all men are created equal' as their slaves worked their estates.

Not all the US's Founding Fathers were slave owners. Some were abolitionists, actually. And yeah, they hated each other.

- DSK

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Catholics and Congregationalists, Baptists, Methodists, Episcopalians (Anglicans) and Quakers and Jews... Shakers too I believe, but maybe not....

 They all got together and decided that those w/o an organized religion that they understood would not be considered "men". Judeo/Christian law.... Plain and simple. Buddhists, Muslims, Shinto, Ashanti, etc..... Just don't exist. Even Atheists were given more credence than an alien religion.

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2 hours ago, badlatitude said:

I stay away from the climate debate. it's worse than arguing over religion.

Backward,   Which burning bush one should listen to or what fasting delusion was divine is based on what your momma told you was truth.   Maybe if you picked the right mamma and listened well you get paradise when you die.   

Climate change is what reality shows to be happening now, on earth, because of your actions.   It’s like correcting the guy that ignored the red sign with yellow flashing lights on the yellow bus.   It makes a difference.  

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1 hour ago, Cal20sailor said:

Both have been beaten to death, can we have a burial?

Can you suggest an alternative imprecation ??  

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1 hour ago, Steam Flyer said:

One historical fact that a lot of people don't understand is that the Founders had zero intention of NOT having an official religion for the USA. But they could not agree on which one, so in spite, they agreed there could not ever be such. This averted a civil war between the states before there even was a Constitution.

Wait !! Are you going all Originalist on us here ?? 

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38 minutes ago, Lark said:

Backward,   Which burning bush one should listen to or what fasting delusion was divine is based on what your momma told you was truth.   Maybe if you picked the right mamma and listened well you get paradise when you die.   

Climate change is what reality shows to be happening now, on earth, because of your actions.   It’s like correcting the guy that ignored the red sign with yellow flashing lights on the yellow bus.   It makes a difference.  

Arguing climate change is a useless endeavor, no one changes a disbeliever.  I own a lot of property here and around the world, and I conserve and protect it. I have contributed to help green organizations, and I taught my children accordingly. I will do everything I can to preserve and protect our world, except argue about it.

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1 hour ago, Cal20sailor said:

You'd think as much as you use the term, that you could spell it

Awww . . . bite me ya Michigander . . . 

I have to spell it that way to get past the PA censors, 

who at the sane time are just fine with all manner of misogynist and obscene lingo. 

I'm about ready to kick ya off my boat, which you have technically not even boarded yet .  . 

(Hugs & kisses to your valiant redistricting com)  

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16 minutes ago, random. said:

Carefully prepared the best Jasmine rice using my perfected Absorption method. 

Don't make me send you my Middle Eastern rice recipe. 

Oh, wot the heck . ..  This is seriously good. 

(I am no kind of a good cook, but keep trying . .)

 

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3 hours ago, Cal20sailor said:

You'd think as much as you use the term, that you could spell it.

AJ to **Dogballs** = Tom to .22 assault rifle

Both have been beaten to death, can we have a burial?

 

If he spells it correctly it gets changed to **Dogballs**. It's a lose-lose situation.

Thankfully.

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2 minutes ago, Ishmael said:

If he spells it

I try to use it judicially on peeps who lack proper respect for truth, honesty, and (small d) democratic values . . 

you got a problem with that ?? 

Y'all use "RWNJ".  Why is your term to be preferred ?? 

Inquiring minds and all that  . . . 

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10 minutes ago, random. said:

Looks good.  I'll give it a try.

I made four batches of that at a sailing club potluck, and it was totally devoured . .  

(not to be confused with "bitches", or "beetches!") 

Don't fear the garlic 

And how about sharing your recipe for this  . . . ?? 

 the best Jasmine rice using my perfected Absorption method. 

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8 hours ago, Cal20sailor said:

AJ to **Dogballs** = Tom to .22 assault rifle

When considering the establishment clause, as with every other issue, it's important to recognize that I sometimes say bad things about TeamD gun bans and confiscation programs, so thanks for bringing that into the discussion.

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