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I noticed, that after Comanche was sold by the LDV guys to the new russian owners, the grinding pedestals were gone and now everything seems to be run on hydraulics. Anyone got an idea why they made that switch?  

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4 minutes ago, Tropical Madness said:

No longer chasing manual records. 

Didnt know they were treated differently. Do you know if the handicap systems take Manual/hydraulic into account aswell?

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1 hour ago, SCARECROW said:

Pretty sure the handles came off when it was in ‘stralia.

Yep, handles came off long ago - pretty sure it was when Jim Clarke still had it no?

 

4 hours ago, WinWindowS said:

Anyone got an idea why they made that switch?  

Typically it's to reduce the number of crew required. With canting keel and water ballast you don't need the rail meat so it's a massive extra expense to be paying to keep the handles stacked. Also the line speeds you can get on hydraulics packages make your manoeuvres and trimming response much quicker than relying on 6 very fit guys and a bunch of the owners mates hanging out of their arseholes trying to keep up... 

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It’s funny because originally they said they chose manual winches to save weight from diesel and the last owners said they got rid of the manual system to save weight…

other than that the boat seems largely unchanged, new sail wardrobe. The dodger was built originally but never used. For the transat they left the dagger boards on the dock, it’s lucky they managed to avoid most of the  upwind work unlike some of the other boats in the fleet 

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2 hours ago, JL92S said:

It’s funny because originally they said they chose manual winches to save weight from diesel and the last owners said they got rid of the manual system to save weight…

other than that the boat seems largely unchanged, new sail wardrobe. The dodger was built originally but never used. For the transat they left the dagger boards on the dock, it’s lucky they managed to avoid most of the  upwind work unlike some of the other boats in the fleet 

My guess, the weight difference is minimal, but the original owner was 'doing' more Transatlantics than 2 day offshores. So the diesel weight would have been greater...plus you are not allowed to make the diesel sit on the high side...then there is the whole record ting as well.

Current owner has probably realised that keeping the hydraulics is cheaper than feeding the gorillas, and that she has enough stiffness due to beam not to worry about the extra railmeat. Especially when she is racing against herself the majority of the time, so he can claim line honours easily enough and then put not getting 'Overall' due to the vagaries of handicap sailing.

 

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The boat was basically built to beat the Manual Transatlantic and 24 Hour Manual Record. Once those were in hand, Cooney probably looked at the likelihood that he would try and beat his own boat's record on the other side of the world (low) and made the change.

It's obvious that the boat is easier to sail with the powered winches. Hydraulics don't get tired on a 2-7 day race and can spit out the ridiculous line speed you need to run furling sails on a boat like that. 

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An elite cyclist is going to output ~400W for an hour so a grinder is probably closer to 100W continuous over a trip (being very generous). You'll get ballpark 3kWh for 1kg of diesel or ~250kWh for the weight of a 180lb gorilla on the grinder. i.e. a grinder (without food or water weight accounted for) needs ~100 days to break even weight wise. Very bullshit rough figures but when there's orders of magnitude difference you get the idea. 

Unless you're looking at a very long trip with freeze dried food and a water-maker or your grinder is adding value in some other way the diesel is much more efficient weight wise. As long as you have the muscle to move sails around you're relying on brains not brawn and having everyone well rested will pay dividends.

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On 1/27/2022 at 11:04 PM, NZK said:

Yep, handles came off long ago - pretty sure it was when Jim Clarke still had it no?

Jim Cooney (Aussie PO) ditched them as soon as he bought her.

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On 1/28/2022 at 1:04 AM, NZK said:

Yep, handles came off long ago - pretty sure it was when Jim Clarke still had it no?

Pretty sure it was designed to be dual purpose.

The handles were (only?) put on for the Transatlantic record.

 

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22 minutes ago, Fiji Bitter said:

Pretty sure it was designed to be dual purpose.

The handles were (only?) put on for the Transatlantic record.

 

The handles were always there but they had a powered pit winch for hoisting and furling sails that could be manually powered for records

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On 1/28/2022 at 12:04 AM, NZK said:

Yep, handles came off long ago - pretty sure it was when Jim Clarke still had it no?

 

Typically it's to reduce the number of crew required. With canting keel and water ballast you don't need the rail meat so it's a massive extra expense to be paying to keep the handles stacked. Also the line speeds you can get on hydraulics packages make your manoeuvres and trimming response much quicker than relying on 6 very fit guys and a bunch of the owners mates hanging out of their arseholes trying to keep up... 

Yep... reducing crew while on and off the boat

On 1/28/2022 at 4:25 AM, jackolantern said:

The boat was basically built to beat the Manual Transatlantic and 24 Hour Manual Record. Once those were in hand, Cooney probably looked at the likelihood that he would try and beat his own boat's record on the other side of the world (low) and made the change.

It's obvious that the boat is easier to sail with the powered winches. Hydraulics don't get tired on a 2-7 day race and can spit out the ridiculous line speed you need to run furling sails on a boat like that. 

Spot on... J1 became furling as well.... furling in and out by sheeting on fast is not just an advantage, it's a must.  

On 1/29/2022 at 12:13 PM, The Dark Knight said:

Jim Cooney (Aussie PO) ditched them as soon as he bought her.

No, he sailed the first Hobart just after he bought it with manual pumps

17 hours ago, Fiji Bitter said:

Pretty sure it was designed to be dual purpose.

The handles were (only?) put on for the Transatlantic record.

 

No, designed for manual pumps

16 hours ago, JL92S said:

The handles were always there but they had a powered pit winch for hoisting and furling sails that could be manually powered for records

Correct

Consider when you drive a supermaxi boat manually like the Indian, you need 4-8 dedicated footy players whose sole job is to pump.... and eat... and pump.  These crew are all pro on a daily rate + expenses and very few live in Sydney so they all need to be flown in, housed and fed for the whole program. S to H is around 4 weeks of expenses and then flown home... huge money. 

The boat can also change gears so much faster now and that makes a huge difference
It was dream after powering the winches... and being a line honors boat, the penalty didn't matter

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On 1/27/2022 at 7:36 PM, WinWindowS said:

I noticed, that after Comanche was sold by the LDV guys to the new russian owners, the grinding pedestals were gone and now everything seems to be run on hydraulics. Anyone got an idea why they made that switch?  

bd64ca0b-c8d2-452f-8886-b0257ab3b7dc.jpg

 

Not sure where you have been and given you are a newbie but she has been hydraulic for a long time. Initially the manual system was required for record breaking however when she started racing against Wild Oats Xi she was at a disadvantage. As you can imagine the loads on this boat are one of the highest in the world and carting around 24 crew is a nightmare. 

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  • 4 weeks later...
14 hours ago, terrafirma said:

Is this the end for Comanche as a Russian boat.? Skorpios on the run as we speak to avoid seizure? Thoughts..?

I doubt the oligarch that paid for it and drives it is the actual owner, it's probably owned by company that sits downstream of 10 or so shell companies. So proving that a nasty Russian bastard owns it, which is obviously needed to seize it, might be more difficult than we suspect.

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10 hours ago, FinnFish said:

I doubt the oligarch that paid for it and drives it is the actual owner, it's probably owned by company that sits downstream of 10 or so shell companies. So proving that a nasty Russian bastard owns it, which is obviously needed to seize it, might be more difficult than we suspect.

I would have agreed with this until the Germans seized that fucking huge Dilbar stinkpot that I would assume has a similar chain of shell companies as the registered 'owners'. Maybe the race yachts will slip under the radar? 

I think the bigger issue is, if any of these teams still try to enter any regattas will the relevant classes/committees accept the entry? Even if they're registered under a neutral (tax haven) flag it would be a controversial move to allow them in - this also applies to the various teams in the 52 Super Series, RC44s, Club Swans etc. The World Sailing statement left the door open...

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4 hours ago, NZK said:

I would have agreed with this until the Germans seized that fucking huge Dilbar stinkpot that I would assume has a similar chain of shell companies as the registered 'owners'. Maybe the race yachts will slip under the radar? 

I think the bigger issue is, if any of these teams still try to enter any regattas will the relevant classes/committees accept the entry? Even if they're registered under a neutral (tax haven) flag it would be a controversial move to allow them in - this also applies to the various teams in the 52 Super Series, RC44s, Club Swans etc. The World Sailing statement left the door open...

If course WS left the door open. WS is now owned by China. Besides, some Russian shows up a regatta with his security detail, do you want to be the guy who tells him he can’t sail?

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5 hours ago, NZK said:

I would have agreed with this until the Germans seized that fucking huge Dilbar stinkpot that I would assume has a similar chain of shell companies as the registered 'owners'. Maybe the race yachts will slip under the radar? 

I think the bigger issue is, if any of these teams still try to enter any regattas will the relevant classes/committees accept the entry? Even if they're registered under a neutral (tax haven) flag it would be a controversial move to allow them in - this also applies to the various teams in the 52 Super Series, RC44s, Club Swans etc. The World Sailing statement left the door open...

I am really watching what world tennis does.  Sailing is big in our minds but compared to tennis and other major sports it is not on the radar.   Right now the #1 mens player is Russian, Daniil Medvedev.  I actually think he is a nice person and represents tennis well but the bottom line is he is Russian and for once the world is standing up for what is right.  Yes people like him will be penalized but not as harshly as the Ukrainians!     Today the IOC just said Russian's can pack their bags and go home from the para olympics which was a change from the day before when it was about appeasement and they could compete but not under their flag.

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6 hours ago, NZK said:

I would have agreed with this until the Germans seized that fucking huge Dilbar stinkpot that I would assume has a similar chain of shell companies as the registered 'owners'. Maybe the race yachts will slip under the radar?

Dilbar is not seized. That was a canard from financial times. It can never leave Hamburg though. This way taxpayers don’t have to pay for maintenance on that big fucker. And less trouble with lawyers.

We accommodated a Grandma and her two grandchildren from Kyiv yesterday evening in our annexe. The little ones talk about their father and mother and try to put on a brave face that breaks your heart. Both parents are fighting.

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59 minutes ago, Kalimotxo said:

This way taxpayers don’t have to pay for maintenance on that big fucker.

The old rule of thumb was it costs 10% of the build to maintain these monstrosities annually.

So, $10M/month... 

Fuck, I'm not sure if that's high or low!

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20 hours ago, Kalimotxo said:

Dilbar is not seized. That was a canard from financial times. It can never leave Hamburg though. This way taxpayers don’t have to pay for maintenance on that big fucker. And less trouble with lawyers.

We accommodated a Grandma and her two grandchildren from Kyiv yesterday evening in our annexe. The little ones talk about their father and mother and try to put on a brave face that breaks your heart. Both parents are fighting.

Well done to you. Good humans 

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On 3/3/2022 at 8:32 AM, sunseeker said:

Besides, some Russian shows up a regatta with his security detail, do you want to be the guy who tells him he can’t sail?

You watch too many movies.

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  • 1 month later...
On 2/3/2022 at 2:37 AM, terrafirma said:

 

Not sure where you have been and given you are a newbie but she has been hydraulic for a long time. Initially the manual system was required for record breaking however when she started racing against Wild Oats Xi she was at a disadvantage. As you can imagine the loads on this boat are one of the highest in the world and carting around 24 crew is a nightmare. 

i have noticed a lot earlier, but never bothered to ask... i've asked a buddy who sails on Maxis and wasnt really satisfied with his answer, thats why i asked here.

The explanation you give makes sense and was what i thought was the most likely reason, but it's directly opposed to one of the reasons they gave for installing the pedestals in the first place (avoid taking fuel to power hydraulics) which just had me wondering if they abandoned that idea

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