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Older well known IOR Boats


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3 hours ago, dolphinmaster said:

Looks like 10.5 folks for the rail,  can you say railmeat and 1/2.

Nothing nefarious going on.  The boat likes to sail with 9 people.  For this event it had 10 ½ because:

*** The junior at the back of the boat sails Wednesdays with the boat.  He’s too young to travel to the away events like Yachting Cup or Long Beach Race Week, so he sits in for Cal Race Week.  Added bonus – if you have a junior on the boat for CRW, you get a bottle of rum.

*** The tenth person was a friend of the owner who was out visiting.  They used to sail with and against each other at Hudson River Community Sailing.  Rather than have a regular weekend crew person step off, the boat sailed with one extra.

Sailing with 10 ½ in a light air event was certainly disadvantageous, which is probably why the boat went into the last race tied on points, but losing the tie breaker.  Got lucky in the last race.

But this thread is about IOR boats like Bravura

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I 100% agree on comments about German Frers Jr.  Just a genius at designing beautiful yachts that went very well indeed. Here's my 1979 Fastnet ride, the very first Il Moro.  Glorious boat.

I do remember a fine comment from a bow guy on Williwaw in the Admiral's Cup, 1981 I think.  Dennis Conner was driving, and he loved double-head rigs, and sometimes triple-head with two staysails.  Th

Me too.  A blooper gybe right outside the StFYC is a thing of beauty for the spectators on the roof.  Unless it's not.

Posted Images

  • 2 weeks later...

In the right conditions a blooper is definitely faster.  Not much, a couple of ticks on the knotmeter at best.

We won our div and were 3rd overall in a Swiftsure in the mid 80s sometime.  In no small part due to a borrowed blooper.  The typical run home from the Bank to Race Rocks was reason enough and perhaps the only reason to have a blooper in PNW.

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I know this horse has been beaten but as the bow guy - the more sails to play with the merrier!

It was the only chance I got to occasionally trim a sail as the blooper halyard winch was next to the mast...

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1 hour ago, Liquid said:

I know this horse has been beaten but as the bow guy - the more sails to play with the merrier!

It was the only chance I got to occasionally trim a sail as the blooper halyard winch was next to the mast...

I do remember a fine comment from a bow guy on Williwaw in the Admiral's Cup, 1981 I think.  Dennis Conner was driving, and he loved double-head rigs, and sometimes triple-head with two staysails.  The aggrieved bowman back at the dock busily packing mountains of staysails splattered all over the foredeck: "The reason they call them bloody staysails is they should stay in the bloody bag."

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On 11/4/2020 at 4:32 PM, bigrpowr said:

should prolly still be tiller steered. good looking boat.

IOR boats by definition have tillers. It’s physically impossible to replicate a death defying IOR broach running directly down wind under a hideous tri-cut chute. The reaction time of the driver to pull the tiller up to his chin in a failed attempt to overcome the hydrodynamic flaws of the lumpy bumpy hull simply cannot be done with a wheel. Impossible. 

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5 hours ago, CaptainAhab said:

IOR boats by definition have tillers. It’s physically impossible to replicate a death defying IOR broach running directly down wind under a hideous tri-cut chute. The reaction time of the driver to pull the tiller up to his chin in a failed attempt to overcome the hydrodynamic flaws of the lumpy bumpy hull simply cannot be done with a wheel. Impossible. 

It's quite a workout to spin a wheel from lock to lock and maybe survive....

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On 11/3/2020 at 8:13 AM, sunseeker said:
On 11/3/2020 at 7:03 AM, longy said:

She had a lot of issues with deck hardware migrating towards the load

That’s a hysterical description, never heard that before. Keeping that for future use.

Not heard that one either..:P

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On 11/3/2020 at 4:02 PM, chuso007 said:

This just popped up on my Youtube recommendations:

"A short 12 minute 'glimpse' of the 3 1/2 years we spent restoring the former Whitbread Maxi 'Creighton's Naturally' also known as 'FCF Challenger' and 'Ocean Greyhound'. "

Pretty cool project...

Really nice interior mods, cant thinking I'd have spent the cash on a different donor hull though.

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11 minutes ago, mad said:

Really nice interior mods, cant thinking I'd have spent the cash on a different donor hull though.

Just curious...in that size range and price range, what would you think are better options?

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On 11/3/2020 at 6:35 PM, P_Wop said:
On 11/3/2020 at 5:48 PM, Former MDR Vandal 1 said:

The Bravura Two Tonner ended up in MDR.  She was built at Cookson in 1991.  I understand from the excellent RB sailing website that she was a sistership of Wings of Oracle.  https://rbsailing.blogspot.com/2017/05/wings-of-oracle-farr-two-tonner.html   I was told by extremely reliable sources she was built alongside Cookson’s High Five, an early, extremely successful IMS 40 footer.

An interesting nugget from the 1991 Wings of Oracle campaign.  She was completely funded by Oracle UK, and was launched and racing before Larry found out about it.  He threw a fit and demanded that the boat was to be sailed no more.  A royal battle ensued, and eventually the CEO of Oracle UK (Geoff ???) convinced Larry it was a good deal.

And the first page in a peculiar history was then writ.

I remember that AC and the following one, didn't Bravura become a Corum boat the next time round?

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On 11/4/2020 at 7:09 AM, Ignatius J. Reilly said:

I was involved with her when she was donated.  She arrived with a fresh paint job after being chartered to the French Corum team for the Admirals Cup (there is a great picture of her broaching as CORUM)  The construction by Cookson was incredible.  Unfortunately I don't think she could compete at the level Irv wanted to be successful at ... thus the donation.

 One little interesting factoid seeing her MDR sail number.  Her original number was US-17.  Part of the gift agreement stipulated that the number would be retired upon the sale of the boat.  Apparently Larry Ellison had made an agreement with Irv to transfer the number for use on his new Sayonara.

She was fun to sail.   We even took her to Stockton racing the Delta Ditch one year.   That was an adventure! 

IMG_0055 (2).jpg

Can remember her turning up and going in for the paint job, good times when the AC was in full flow.

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16 minutes ago, SF Woody Sailor said:

Good guess, but no. The red mark is not the weather mark. The weather mark is far out of the frame to windward.

Sea state. 

Although I would think a flood current would be going left to right.  Given that the boats are sailing upwind would increase the chop and the water looks pretty flat for the amount of wind.  But I have no idea of the SF skyline for reference.

Edit:  Just Googled Transamerica building and discovered it's on the opposite side of the bay than I thought.  That would explain it.

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Just now, 12 metre said:

Sea state. 

Although I would think a flood current would be going left to right.  Given that the boats are sailing upwind would increase the chop and the water looks pretty flat for the amount of wind.

You are on the right track. Current is going right to left.

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Flood is darker/greener (and the air feels colder on the boat)   Ebb is brown. Not breezy enough to make the chop jump up, but still looks like flood.  Looks like they're way over/down by TI.  Dont want to go to the cityfront unless you can lay North Point.  If not, take a couple tacks up behind Alcatraz into the cone.  But I bet they had dudes that knew those tricks onboard that day. 

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13 minutes ago, some dude said:

Flood is darker/greener (and the air feels colder on the boat)   Ebb is brown. Not breezy enough to make the chop jump up, but still looks like flood.  Looks like they're way over/down by TI.  Dont want to go to the cityfront unless you can lay North Point.  If not, take a couple tacks up behind Alcatraz into the cone.  But I bet they had dudes that knew those tricks onboard that day. 

The cone works for the first two hours of flood. It doesn’t work for the last two hours of flood. When, precisely in between those, it stops paying is a subject of robust debate. 
 

For any given amount of breeze the water is flatter in flood and choppier in ebb. The bow guy is wearing jeans which means he doesn’t expect to get wet which means flood. 
 

 

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Pretty funny to read the conversation about "jeans" on the bow.   It would take some big Mr. Ebb to get him into foulies.     Being a donated boat, we didn't exactly have the big clothing budget of some other programs.   One year for the BBS we showed up at the starting line with white tyvex suits, blue sail-ties for belts and Avery stickers on our chest with the boat name.    They didn't last very long .... but for a few moments we looked pretty sharp! (and we got a good laugh out of it!)

Image4-4.thumb.jpg.431496f3f3b6ff4008076c4ac3c57b5b.jpg

Regarding the tide question ... SF Woody is correct.   When to use the "Cone of Alcatraz" is THE question on days like this.   It was my experience that if you were going to be coming into the cityfront south of Pier 39, the cone was most likely the best way to go.    Until you have done it, playing The Cone is hard to describe.   As we used to say .... you will hit the bow before you hit the bottom.   We would sail right up to the Alcatraz warning sign on the south end of the island.   Every boat length hiding from Mr. Flood generated big gains.   Then there was the choice to sail up the face of Alcatraz for a little bit more advantage.   

It has been thirty years ... but those were great days on the Bay!

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9 minutes ago, Ignatius J. Reilly said:

Pretty funny to read the conversation about "jeans" on the bow.   It would take some big Mr. Ebb to get him into foulies.     Being a donated boat, we didn't exactly have the big clothing budget of some other programs.   One year for the BBS we showed up at the starting line with white tyvex suits, blue sail-ties for belts and Avery stickers on our chest with the boat name.    They didn't last very long .... but for a few moments we looked pretty sharp! (and we got a good laugh out of it!)

Image4-4.thumb.jpg.431496f3f3b6ff4008076c4ac3c57b5b.jpg

Regarding the tide question ... SF Woody is correct.   When to use the "Cone of Alcatraz" is THE question on days like this.   It was my experience that if you were going to be coming into the cityfront south of Pier 39, the cone was most likely the best way to go.    Until you have done it, playing The Cone is hard to describe.   As we used to say .... you will hit the bow before you hit the bottom.   We would sail right up to the Alcatraz warning sign on the south end of the island.   Every boat length hiding from Mr. Flood generated big gains.   Then there was the choice to sail up the face of Alcatraz for a little bit more advantage.   

It has been thirty years ... but those were great days on the Bay!

Ah yes, the reverse cone. Whether to take that one last hitch to port to sail into the relief on the up current side. Always a difficult one but particularly difficult when you are leading. What to do if you tack and the next two boats don’t? Cover knowing you will be in bad current? Split hoping you are in better current? 

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1 hour ago, Ignatius J. Reilly said:

Pretty funny to read the conversation about "jeans" on the bow.   It would take some big Mr. Ebb to get him into foulies.     Being a donated boat, we didn't exactly have the big clothing budget of some other programs.   One year for the BBS we showed up at the starting line with white tyvex suits, blue sail-ties for belts and Avery stickers on our chest with the boat name.    They didn't last very long .... but for a few moments we looked pretty sharp! (and we got a good laugh out of it!)

Image4-4.thumb.jpg.431496f3f3b6ff4008076c4ac3c57b5b.jpg

Regarding the tide question ... SF Woody is correct.   When to use the "Cone of Alcatraz" is THE question on days like this.   It was my experience that if you were going to be coming into the cityfront south of Pier 39, the cone was most likely the best way to go.    Until you have done it, playing The Cone is hard to describe.   As we used to say .... you will hit the bow before you hit the bottom.   We would sail right up to the Alcatraz warning sign on the south end of the island.   Every boat length hiding from Mr. Flood generated big gains.   Then there was the choice to sail up the face of Alcatraz for a little bit more advantage.   

It has been thirty years ... but those were great days on the Bay!

Yep!  The play for the cone is quite mysterious.  But even if the timing if off, you have to go that way at least long enough to lay North Point.  Small breeze big water under there if you don't. 

And BTW a J105 going all the up into the cone to the Keep Out-Federal Prison sign hits at the keel about a boatlength before the bow would hit.  Learned the hard way.  Left a piece of lead there to mark the spot.  

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2 minutes ago, some dude said:

And BTW a J105 going all the up into the cone to the Keep Out-Federal Prison sign hits at the keel about a boatlength before the bow would hit.  Learned the hard way.  Left a piece of lead there to mark the spot.  

Thanks. That could come in handy. 

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1 hour ago, sledracr said:

lmao.  bookend for the piece of lead left to mark "audacious rock" on the beat out of hurricane gulch?

Indeed.  Very similar experience.  That kind of impact may twist the whole fin of the IOR boat, but not the J boat.  YMMV

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4 hours ago, some dude said:

No worries!  The San Pedro one is not as hurricane-ish but breezy for So Cal

but it does exist, i remember one specific knock down there.. scared the shit out of me.

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Hoping someone here may have some info: the picture below is most likely for where this beautiful boat (a German Frers 3/4 tonner) was with it's 2nd owner (not 100% sure, yet most likely 2nd owner not first);  F7554 as her sailing number, operated from Port Vendres (the 1st and/or 2nd owner member of the GYC (very likely being: Gruissan Yacht Club).

Any info is welcomed :) We try to make the info complete (also on histoiredeshalves (http://www.histoiredeshalfs.com/Trois Quart/Trois Quart tonner Liste.htm)). (this boat is a sister ship to La Rafolie who also sailed from this area (F7440))

Thank you!
 

Brugues==lovefool==pollux==earlymorningsunrise--F7554.jpg

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Something that has intrigued me for decades is how some designers - Frers, Stephens, Rhodes - had a "feminine" quality in the look of their boats while others - the Maestro in particular - had a "masculine" look to their designs.

While easy to see I've never been able to determine what it is that gives them those qualities. Whatever it is, it's subtle - or a lot of subtle differences.

For example - the transom of the pictured boat could have been drawn by Scott Kaufmann but the overall boat no.

Anybody have any observations on this?

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15 hours ago, SloopJonB said:

Something that has intrigued me for decades is how some designers - Frers, Stephens, Rhodes - had a "feminine" quality in the look of their boats while others - the Maestro in particular - had a "masculine" look to their designs.

While easy to see I've never been able to determine what it is that gives them those qualities. Whatever it is, it's subtle - or a lot of subtle differences.

For example - the transom of the pictured boat could have been drawn by Scott Kaufmann but the overall boat no.

Anybody have any observations on this?

Lots of subtle differences I would  say.                                                                                                                                                                          

Actually this has been for me a question for decades: 40+ years ago I was actively racing and was lucky enough to sail first on an early lightweight flyer (enthusing) which despite very significant successes did not attract much owners' attention.

Although we were convinced that "classic" designs were becoming obsolete, the attraction of a full-on campaign had us next on a Frers design of similar size. she proved able to - a number of times - fend-off the light weights while dominating all other medium-displacements ....... and enlighting owners' eyes.

How Frers had been able to extract such good performance from a pure classic look was and remains a mistery to me. Sound principles then faired into a beautiful look while always keeping a close attention at the "rule" idiosyncracies  ???

Refinement.

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5 hours ago, moody frog said:

How Frers had been able to extract such good performance from a pure classic look was and remains a mistery to me. Sound principles then faired into a beautiful look while always keeping a close attention at the "rule" idiosyncracies  ???

I have a hunch that the success of Frers had a key factor in common with that of S&S: an ability consistently to attract clients who brought both big money and high skill.  That ensured that whatever the boat's capabilities, they would be exploited to the max.  In my theory, the beautiful looks are part of that package, a visual status symbol both for those wealthy owners and for crew who wanted a ride on the best-looking boats.

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I 100% agree on comments about German Frers Jr.  Just a genius at designing beautiful yachts that went very well indeed.

Here's my 1979 Fastnet ride, the very first Il Moro.  Glorious boat.

 

Il_Moro.jpg

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1 hour ago, dolphinmaster said:

J, what made her Glorious? R

Good question.

Apart from being drop dead lovely to look at, she was beautifully built in cold-moulded timber by Sangermani (but may have been Becconcini or Ambrosini, I can't remember).  Although only 68 feet, she had a huge masthead rig which made her very potent in the predominantly light-air Med.  But she could be reefed down and set tiny headsails as needed, as we discovered in that bloody Fastnet. 

One of the first fully flush-decked big IOR racers, she was an eye-opener when launched in 76.  Replacing the big heavy 2-spreader Hood spar in 79 for the largest Stearn 3-spreader bendy rig built up to that day only made her better.  Timmy "twinstay" Stearn and John Marshall drove her in Cowes Week that year.  I have more photos somewhere.

Now well restored and still racing in the Med, as in the recent pic.

Happy days.

Alamy image:

Imperia, Italy. 9th Sep, 2016. The yacht Il Moro di Venezia" sailing Stock  Photo - Alamy

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8 hours ago, P_Wop said:

Good question.

Apart from being drop dead lovely to look at, she was beautifully built in cold-moulded timber by Sangermani (but may have been Becconcini or Ambrosini, I can't remember).  Although only 68 feet, she had a huge masthead rig which made her very potent in the predominantly light-air Med.  But she could be reefed down and set tiny headsails as needed, as we discovered in that bloody Fastnet. 

One of the first fully flush-decked big IOR racers, she was an eye-opener when launched in 76.  Replacing the big heavy 2-spreader Hood spar in 79 for the largest Stearn 3-spreader bendy rig built up to that day only made her better.  Timmy "twinstay" Stearn and John Marshall drove her in Cowes Week that year.  I have more photos somewhere.

Now well restored and still racing in the Med, as in the recent pic.

Happy days.

Alamy image:

Imperia, Italy. 9th Sep, 2016. The yacht Il Moro di Venezia" sailing Stock  Photo - Alamy

"Carlini "

Who else for Raul ?  Adriatico rules .......

My first sight of her,:when she entered Groves & Guttridge marina, before the '77 Fastnet. I had never see any boat that beautiful, neat and impressive ... Phantom, Grampus, Gitana VI, suddenly looked "just standard"

Luck was with me, that day: there on deck was a guy from Palermo I had sailed a one-tonner with a year before .... I could step  foot on deck and "feel" what a mighty thoroughbred she was - even when tied up.

 

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In the fairly light air beat down and out of the Solent in the 79 Fastnet, when we finally settled down Raul pointed behind us and said it was good to see Tenacious behind us.  I replied that it wasn't Tenacious, it was Kialoa.

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2 hours ago, P_Wop said:

In the fairly light air beat down and out of the Solent in the 79 Fastnet, when we finally settled down Raul pointed behind us and said it was good to see Tenacious behind us.  I replied that it wasn't Tenacious, it was Kialoa.

Nice!

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On 1/12/2021 at 9:42 AM, TwoLegged said:

I have a hunch that the success of Frers had a key factor in common with that of S&S: an ability consistently to attract clients who brought both big money and high skill.  That ensured that whatever the boat's capabilities, they would be exploited to the max.  In my theory, the beautiful looks are part of that package, a visual status symbol both for those wealthy owners and for crew who wanted a ride on the best-looking boats.

I did the 1991 PH-Mac on a Frers 52 or 53', I think it was the old Bumblebee.  Upwind after the start blowing 5-7.  When the occasional 10 kt puff hit, the boat lit up.  I spent five weeks literally at the North Pole in '87 and have never been as cold as I was in that aluminum can rounding cove.  Three in the morning and you get out of your bunk to warm up on deck?

On the motor to the start, the owner who I had never sailed with (plenty since then). remarked that if he had all the money in the world, he'd still want to be exactly where he was.   He's gone now but I remind myself of that when things seem tough.  Sailboat races are never tough.

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7 minutes ago, Cal20sailor said:

I did the 1991 PH-Mac on a Frers 52 or 53', I think it was the old Bumblebee.  Upwind after the start blowing 5-7.  When the occasional 10 kt puff hit, the boat lit up.  I spent five weeks literally at the North Pole in '87 and have never been as cold as I was in that aluminum can rounding cove.  Three in the morning and you get out of your bunk to warm up on deck?

On the motor to the start, the owner who I had never sailed with (plenty since then). remarked that if he had all the money in the world, he'd still want to be exactly where he was.   He's gone now but I remind myself of that when things seem tough.  Sailboat races are never tough.

Sweet memories! You seem to have recovered from that mishap with the start gun. Thanks God.

  

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14 minutes ago, LordBooster said:

Sweet memories! You seem to have recovered from that mishap with the start gun. Thanks God.

  

I've done my share of RC but don't recall any start gun issues.  Please fill me in.

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7 minutes ago, Cal20sailor said:

I've done my share of RC but don't recall any start gun issues.  Please fill me in.

Sorry, flare gun!

  On 12/21/2020 at 11:03 PM, LordBooster said:

Well, you are probably correct. I have no tested that trick, only snus. Snus (roughly chewing tobacco) works good in a breeze, cigar probably not. Probably the reason my light air speed...

If it's that light, watch how the smoke flows when I shoot myself with the flare gun.

 

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On 1/11/2021 at 10:50 AM, EarlyMorningSunrise said:

Hoping someone here may have some info: the picture below is most likely for where this beautiful boat (a German Frers 3/4 tonner) was with it's 2nd owner (not 100% sure, yet most likely 2nd owner not first);  F7554 as her sailing number, operated from Port Vendres (the 1st and/or 2nd owner member of the GYC (very likely being: Gruissan Yacht Club).

Any info is welcomed :) We try to make the info complete (also on histoiredeshalves (http://www.histoiredeshalfs.com/Trois Quart/Trois Quart tonner Liste.htm)). (this boat is a sister ship to La Rafolie who also sailed from this area (F7440))

Thank you!
 

Brugues==lovefool==pollux==earlymorningsunrise--F7554.jpg

Cirrus 33, designed by German Frers and built in Spain, Taylor boatyard, around 1977-79. Derived from Samsara, a cold molded prototype from Souters in Cowes which finished third on the 3/4 Ton Cup in 1977 and second in her class on the infamous 1979 Fastnet. 

Very nice boat, very sturdy and heavy. I was an IOR measurer back then and I found that the keels were not the same size; one of them had a twist of a full degree from top to bottom, which caused some funny results on beats. 

https://sailboat.guide/cirrus-34-ton-frers

I did a Med campaign on one of these, including the Med International Championship in Palma. We also won the Godo Cup, a well-known event in Spain. Not too fast but very reliable. Genoa winches were recessed into the cockpit, which meant that the only way to sheet hard was to press the knees against the cockpit side - very painful after several tacks. Somewhat acrobatic on runs in a heavy sea but controllable, although the tiller was rather short to compensate for the small cockpit. 

A nice boat. 

 

 

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13 minutes ago, kotick said:

Cirrus 33, designed by German Frers and built in Spain, Taylor boatyard, around 1977-79. Derived from Samsara, a cold molded prototype from Souters in Cowes which finished third on the 3/4 Ton Cup in 1977 and second in her class on the infamous 1979 Fastnet. 

Very nice boat, very sturdy and heavy. I was an IOR measurer back then and I found that the keels were not the same size; one of them had a twist of a full degree from top to bottom, which caused some funny results on beats. 

https://sailboat.guide/cirrus-34-ton-frers

I did a Med campaign on one of these, including the Med International Championship in Palma. We also won the Godo Cup, a well-known event in Spain. Not too fast but very reliable. Genoa winches were recessed into the cockpit, which meant that the only way to sheet hard was to press the knees against the cockpit side - very painful after several tacks. Somewhat acrobatic on runs in a heavy sea but controllable, although the tiller was rather short to compensate for the small cockpit. 

A nice boat. 

 

 

Pretty good summary Thanks !

Just one little correction:

While close to Samsara the Taylor 33 is not a derivative as is most often believed.                                                                              Actually I believe  the Taylor was designed prior to Samsara: T 33 series production started early 77 at the latest, while Samsara development spread from November '76 to Spring '77 - she was quickly built and launched End May or early June.

The main design concept difference was in the purpose, as a cruiser-racer the T 33 had more displacement through a deeper body, while  Sam was designed as a pure one-off tonner.

Differences ... but the T 33 still performed very well against the contemporary production boats , Contention 33 , UFO 34, Kalik 33 ... the only T33s in the 3/4 Ton cup were  Spanish Navy run and their results reflected crew work more than boat performance.

Still, I would better enjoy a cruise on a T33  :rolleyes:

 

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6 hours ago, Whinging Pom said:

I vividly remember doing the 1985 Channel Race on Samsara.  Hydraulic oil and vomit everywhere ...

I remember that one too, but for a different reason.  The occupant of the lower bunk had used my seaboot as a conveniently nearby receptacle.  It's a less than joyful feeling when you discover this while getting into your gear for the 0400 watch change.

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47 minutes ago, P_Wop said:

I remember that one too, but for a different reason.  The occupant of the lower bunk had used my seaboot as a conveniently nearby receptacle.  It's a less than joyful feeling when you discover this while getting into your gear for the 0400 watch change.

Reminds me of my Dad's WW2 Navy story about always setting yourself up in upper sleeping hammocks so as not to be a catch basin for seasickness ejecta from above.

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On 1/19/2021 at 12:16 PM, moody frog said:

Pretty good summary Thanks !

Just one little correction:

While close to Samsara the Taylor 33 is not a derivative as is most often believed.                                                                              Actually I believe  the Taylor was designed prior to Samsara: T 33 series production started early 77 at the latest, while Samsara development spread from November '76 to Spring '77 - she was quickly built and launched End May or early June.

The main design concept difference was in the purpose, as a cruiser-racer the T 33 had more displacement through a deeper body, while  Sam was designed as a pure one-off tonner.

Differences ... but the T 33 still performed very well against the contemporary production boats , Contention 33 , UFO 34, Kalik 33 ... the only T33s in the 3/4 Ton cup were  Spanish Navy run and their results reflected crew work more than boat performance.

Still, I would better enjoy a cruise on a T33  :rolleyes:

 

Thanks. Samsara is now for sale in Imperia, Italy. Ad says she was built in 1976, so I suppose both versions were developed more or less together. Sam has a thin three-spreader mast, very different from the solid stick in the production model. As I see in the pictures, the characteristic winch position is the same on both boats. She was not so fast as the Contention 33, of course, we struggled hard to keep up with them. I know nothing about the Navy-run boats, perhaps they had to carry big guns and this slowed the boats. 

 

 

82361475_2901399629882003_5602792693127184384_n.jpg

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8 hours ago, kotick said:

Thanks. Samsara is now for sale in Imperia, Italy. Ad says she was built in 1976, so I suppose both versions were developed more or less together. Sam has a thin three-spreader mast, very different from the solid stick in the production model. As I see in the pictures, the characteristic winch position is the same on both boats. She was not so fast as the Contention 33, of course, we struggled hard to keep up with them. I know nothing about the Navy-run boats, perhaps they had to carry big guns and this slowed the boats.

 

As you may have understood, I was involved with Sam.

She was definitely built in spring '77 

I visited the yard at fitting-out time and for the sail trials. As I had been enlisted at Pentecostés 1977, this was definitely mid-june '77. She was hastily built after "Liz of Hanko".  As it happened, unaware of my future involvement, I had witnessed - early november 76 - German Frers and the owner finalising the design in a London hotel. Hence my remark.

 For whatever reason the current owner "pushed" the launch date backwards.

Mast:

Actually Samsara originally had the very  same type of solid stick (by John Powell). '77 being the year in which "Stearn" boomed , the owner was obviously shaken by the skinny masts of our competitors and at the first refit, by the end of '79, she had a new mast designed and built (and her rating optimised)

Navy crews.

There were two C 33's at the 3/4 ton cup, which had regular crews of Naval Cadets, at a time when the other boats' afterguards were suddenly "invaded" by top guns and olympic medallists. Hence my remark.

So: No ! they had no big guns and, in my eye,  that was a big disadvantage ^_^

 

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On 1/25/2021 at 11:18 AM, moody frog said:

As you may have understood, I was involved with Sam.

She was definitely built in spring '77 

I visited the yard at fitting-out time and for the sail trials. As I had been enlisted at Pentecostés 1977, this was definitely mid-june '77. She was hastily built after "Liz of Hanko".  As it happened, unaware of my future involvement, I had witnessed - early november 76 - German Frers and the owner finalising the design in a London hotel. Hence my remark.

 For whatever reason the current owner "pushed" the launch date backwards.

Mast:

Actually Samsara originally had the very  same type of solid stick (by John Powell). '77 being the year in which "Stearn" boomed , the owner was obviously shaken by the skinny masts of our competitors and at the first refit, by the end of '79, she had a new mast designed and built (and her rating optimised)

Navy crews.

There were two C 33's at the 3/4 ton cup, which had regular crews of Naval Cadets, at a time when the other boats' afterguards were suddenly "invaded" by top guns and olympic medallists. Hence my remark.

So: No ! they had no big guns and, in my eye,  that was a big disadvantage ^_^

 

A really interesting first-hand story. I have only seen Sam in pictures, so I thought the Stearn mast was original. When I said "she was not so fast as the Contention 33" I was referring to the production model. And my "big guns" are of course the metal ones, not bone and flesh! 

Interestingly, there seems to be several people in this thread acquainted with Samsara. I have very good memories from the Cirrus (the one we sailed had not any twist in the keel).

 

 

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8 hours ago, kotick said:

A really interesting first-hand story. I have only seen Sam in pictures, so I thought the Stearn mast was original. When I said "she was not so fast as the Contention 33" I was referring to the production model. And my "big guns" are of course the metal ones, not bone and flesh! 

Interestingly, there seems to be several people in this thread acquainted with Samsara. I have very good memories from the Cirrus (the one we sailed had not any twist in the keel).

 

 

I was referring to the production model too, your first hand experience is therefore good information for me  :)                                      Really would like to see the lines of both boats !

PS: Samsara's original owner split her "sailing life" between France and U.K , so she had alternative seasons under either flag, a number of people from both countries had the opportunity to sail the boat.

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My first ever "real" big boat regatta (not on my dad's boat) was on one of those Navy cirrus. Good memories, I think the average age f the crew, apart from the skipper, was about 18-19 yo. I was 16, the oldest was about 20. With the same crew we ended winning that regatta years later, in 1991 with a DB-1.

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On 1/28/2021 at 10:10 AM, moody frog said:

I was referring to the production model too, your first hand experience is therefore good information for me  :)                                      Really would like to see the lines of both boats !

PS: Samsara's original owner split her "sailing life" between France and U.K , so she had alternative seasons under either flag, a number of people from both countries had the opportunity to sail the boat.

Thank you for the memories you have helped to bring back! I will stop now to avoid hijacking the thread, but one more comment: I thought the original owner was a woman, I do not recall the name, but she added to the short  list of European women who owned IOR boats. Monique de Tinguy du Pouet had Tadorne, a Delph 32 (Mauric plans) who sailed really well in France, Marina Scapparelli owned Ydra, a well-known Carter one-tonner (and several other boats, too) and Pam Saffery-Cooper, who owned several British half-tonners together with her husband Brian (who passed away in 2018).  

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3 hours ago, kotick said:

 Marina Scapparelli owned Ydra, a well-known Carter one-tonner

A little better than "well-known" - One Ton Cup champion.

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On 1/12/2021 at 9:42 AM, TwoLegged said:
On 1/12/2021 at 4:25 AM, moody frog said:

How Frers had been able to extract such good performance from a pure classic look was and remains a mistery to me. Sound principles then faired into a beautiful look while always keeping a close attention at the "rule" idiosyncracies  ???

I have a hunch that the success of Frers had a key factor in common with that of S&S: an ability consistently to attract clients who brought both big money and high skill.  That ensured that whatever the boat's capabilities, they would be exploited to the max.  In my theory, the beautiful looks are part of that package, a visual status symbol both for those wealthy owners and for crew who wanted a ride on the best-looking boats.

I think both Frers and S&S had top-level engineering help with structure and aero- & hydrodynamics.

Neither ever designed a boat that sailed poorly, to my knowledge.

FB- Doug

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25 minutes ago, SloopJonB said:

A little better than "well-known" - One Ton Cup champion.

Yes, and skipped by an Admiral, no less! Agostino Straulino was the helmsman in the One Ton Cup in Porto Cervo. 

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2 minutes ago, SloopJonB said:
1 hour ago, Steam Flyer said:

Neither ever designed a boat that sailed poorly, to my knowledge.

 

S&S designed Valiant which was a dog.

That's the series Courageous eventually won, IIRC?

It wasn't a dog, just not as big a leap forward as to be able to beat Teddy without better luck & talent.

FB- Doug

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1 hour ago, Steam Flyer said:

That's the series Courageous eventually won, IIRC?

It wasn't a dog, just not as big a leap forward as to be able to beat Teddy without better luck & talent.

FB- Doug

1970, the Britt Chance revised Intrepid from 1967 was selected over Valiant, the fresh out of the box NYYC  in house syndicate special.  

In 74 S&S came back strongly with Courageous.  

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1 hour ago, Ned said:
2 hours ago, Steam Flyer said:

That's the series Courageous eventually won, IIRC?

It wasn't a dog, just not as big a leap forward as to be able to beat Teddy without better luck & talent.

FB- Doug

1970, the Britt Chance revised Intrepid from 1967 was selected over Valiant, the fresh out of the box NYYC  in house syndicate special.  

In 74 S&S came back strongly with Courageous.   

Thank you for the correction- I was getting Valiant mixed up with Enterprise. My memory isn't as good as I used to think it was.

FB- Doug

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2 hours ago, Ned said:

1970, the Britt Chance revised Intrepid from 1967 was selected over Valiant, the fresh out of the box NYYC  in house syndicate special.  

In 74 S&S came back strongly with Courageous.  

And many people said the Chance redesign made Intrepid slower to boot.

Valiant was a dog - IIRC they went for a heavy air combination of 12 Meter "measurements" and it didn't work.

Having said that, producing over 2000 designs, being the worlds premier design office for 45 years and owning America's cup for decades would seem to excuse a single dog of note.

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2 hours ago, SloopJonB said:

And many people said the Chance redesign made Intrepid slower to boot.

Valiant was a dog - IIRC they went for a heavy air combination of 12 Meter "measurements" and it didn't work.

Having said that, producing over 2000 designs, being the worlds premier design office for 45 years and owning America's cup for decades would seem to excuse a single dog of note.

Chance was merely following the trend in metre boats at the time.  They were getting longer and heavier with less SA.

I think the logic at the time wasn't so much designing a heavy air boat as much as the introduction of the fin keel with Intrepid lowered wetted surface enough that some sail area could be sacrificed for the benefit of more sailing length.  The way the rule worked was that if you increased LWL you had to increase displacement somewhat disproportionately.

The same was true in the 6mR fleet at that time.  I believe it is generally held that the classic 6's were faster than the 1967-1975 or so era.  

For example, in the 1969 Australian-American Challenge, the venerable old Goose (S&S) beat the new at the time Toogoolowoo IV (S&S). 

The followup to Toogie was Toogoolowoo V (S&S) and she looked a lot like Valiant and was beaten by the above mentioned Toogoolowoo IV (renamed St. Francis IV by then) in the following challenge.  So they were definitely taking a step backward in that era.

Below are Toogie IV (renamed Buzzy V) and  Toogie V:

I used to sail on Buzzy III (S&S 1956) and she was definitely faster than Toogie IV (Vic Palmers sons each owned one of them back in the day)

And lastly Valiant for comparison:

TOOGIE.jpg

Toogie V.jpg

Toogie v2.jpg

Valiant.jpg

Valiant2.jpg

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20 hours ago, kotick said:

Thank you for the memories you have helped to bring back! I will stop now to avoid hijacking the thread, but one more comment: I thought the original owner was a woman, I do not recall the name, but she added to the short  list of European women who owned IOR boats. Monique de Tinguy du Pouet had Tadorne, a Delph 32 (Mauric plans) who sailed really well in France, Marina Scapparelli owned Ydra, a well-known Carter one-tonner (and several other boats, too) and Pam Saffery-Cooper, who owned several British half-tonners together with her husband Brian (who passed away in 2018).  

Hard to stop :D

Samsara's original owner was Odile Tran Van Dom, a Vietnamese lady who, through scholarships, had made her own way through the French universities to become a highly rated psychanalist. Her most famous research having been to link Freud with Buddhism !?! the yacht's name is no surprise. She loved yachts and yacht racing as a great mix of "art" "human interaction" and "communion with nature"

Odile went to sail calmer seas 4 years ago.

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10 hours ago, moody frog said:

Hard to stop :D

Samsara's original owner was Odile Tran Van Dom, a Vietnamese lady who, through scholarships, had made her own way through the French universities to become a highly rated psychanalist. Her most famous research having been to link Freud with Buddhism !?! the yacht's name is no surprise. She loved yachts and yacht racing as a great mix of "art" "human interaction" and "communion with nature"

Odile went to sail calmer seas 4 years ago.

OMG. You are a well of knowledge. Salut, copain!

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On 1/29/2021 at 5:01 PM, SloopJonB said:

And many people said the Chance redesign made Intrepid slower to boot.

Valiant was a dog - IIRC they went for a heavy air combination of 12 Meter "measurements" and it didn't work.

Having said that, producing over 2000 designs, being the worlds premier design office for 45 years and owning America's cup for decades would seem to excuse a single dog of note.

Valiant was a dog when she was built for the AC.  Olin Stephens said that this was the biggest disappointment of his storied career.  At the end of his life, Olin spent a lot of time with the current owner of Valiant sorting her out.  It was found, among other deficiencies, that the original keel was more than a little asymmetric.   All of the effort has actually proved that Valiant is quite competitive once dialed in, and Olin felt some vindication in his original thinking   

 

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  • 8 months later...

I don't mean to hijack the thread, but its been quiet for a little while now and thought maybe I could surface another one of these boats. I own a 1977 Peterson 37 named Karma that is in the PNW out of Anacortes, currently on the hard for the winter while my partner and I are away. We will return in spring and after some refit items will cruise full time. I have not been able to find much information on her specifically and was wondering if someone out there knew more! She has a dark blue hull and interestingly, a navy blue rig as well. I apologize for these being the only two overall photos I seem to be able to find. 

I have heard that there was a blue Doug Peterson boat from about this era that used to race out of Portland and was possibly even dismasted at some point, though I have not been able to confirm or even hear that from two sources. I am pretty sure though she was essentially given to a storage yard where about 10 years ago the previous owner found her and did a bit of a refit. 

winter2.jpg

winter.jpg

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Just to get thing started, I am wondering if you can provide the name of the builder

This appears to be the same boat that is/was advertised in Sailboatlistings a couple of years ago as being built by Ontario Ship Yards https://www.sailboatlistings.com/view/75617

I am not aware of an "Ontario Ship Yards" although there may have been - but this may to be an allusion to Wiggers Custom Yachts in Ontario who did build a Peterson 37 (AKA Wiggers 37). 

This Peterson is an earlier pintail (pre 1980) rather than the wider sterned Wiggers 37 which was produced in the early 80's

I mention this mainly because I am sure some people who reply will be giving their thoughts on the more well known Wiggers built 37.