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470 tiller dimensions


NickD

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The 470 is almost in the water. I just need to make a tiller. If anyone has got measurements (I really just need the length) or pictures of tiller setups (or any other 470 pics, like rigging), I'd really appreciate it.

Thanks,

-Nick

post-16705-1196372768_thumb.jpgpost-16705-1196372789_thumb.jpgpost-16705-1196372813_thumb.jpgpost-16705-1196372850_thumb.jpg

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Can't really help you, but I just thought I'd say how pretty I think 470's are. Or maybe I'm just freakin out and thinking anything without lead is pretty since I haven't been sailing in so damn long.

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Can't really help you, but I just thought I'd say how pretty I think 470's are. Or maybe I'm just freakin out and thinking anything without lead is pretty since I haven't been sailing in so damn long.

 

Yeah, I agree. :) I really like the almost 5O5-esque baby flares aft- how the hull kind of flares out at the deck, for that extra beam (though really tiny compared to how much the 5oh hull flares).

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The boat is at my folks place so I can't get a handy pic, but some decent PVC pipe (1 inch diameter) about a metre long is what I'm rigged with now. As long as there's some wall thickness it should be okay to not bend/break - and it's cheap!

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  • 2 weeks later...

No, don't think I want to go with PVC. I can't go sailing till the spring anyway at this point, so I think I'm going to laminate up a nice "S" shaped ash and mahogany tiller. Thanks for the measurements though. :)

-Nick

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No, don't think I want to go with PVC. I can't go sailing till the spring anyway at this point, so I think I'm going to laminate up a nice "S" shaped ash and mahogany tiller. Thanks for the measurements though. :)

-Nick

 

Ah, my bad...I was talking about tiller extensions. The actual tiller itself is stainless, but I'm f*cked if I can remember the measurements. And don't let me talk you out of ash and mahogany... that will look VERY nice.

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The 470 is almost in the water. I just need to make a tiller. If anyone has got measurements (I really just need the length) or pictures of tiller setups (or any other 470 pics, like rigging), I'd really appreciate it.

Thanks,

-Nick

post-16705-1196372768_thumb.jpgpost-16705-1196372789_thumb.jpgpost-16705-1196372813_thumb.jpgpost-16705-1196372850_thumb.jpg

 

now that I see a picture of the boat whats the difference beetween one of these and a 420? (other than the hole in the back)

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470 & 420? LOA, sail areas, controls, board sizes and shapes... The foredeck is relatively shorter and depending if it is built as a C420 the boat will have a non-tapered mast, thicker hull layup, simplified controls and a bumper on the bow & rubrails. The Intl 420s are basically 470 trainers- alot like the relationship between the 49er and 29er except the 470 and 420 were designed by two different guys.

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The difference is everything. Lighter for its size, a tunable rig, decently sized spinnaker (could be bigger though), a good planing hull form, loads of fun to sail on. Except in light air... it sucks to be jammed in that little corner between the jib and the vang...

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Ah, my bad...I was talking about tiller extensions. The actual tiller itself is stainless, but I'm f*cked if I can remember the measurements. And don't let me talk you out of ash and mahogany... that will look VERY nice.

 

That's cool,

so, the stainless tiller, it's bent to clear the tanks, right? Do you think you'll see the boat again anytime soon, maybe measure the tiller? This might be a little more trouble than you want to deal with, and I understand if it is, but it would be great if you could take a picture, with a meter stick or tape measure next to it, to give me some idea of scale, so that I could then make the form for the lamination by looking at the picture.

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That's cool,

so, the stainless tiller, it's bent to clear the tanks, right? Do you think you'll see the boat again anytime soon, maybe measure the tiller? This might be a little more trouble than you want to deal with, and I understand if it is, but it would be great if you could take a picture, with a meter stick or tape measure next to it, to give me some idea of scale, so that I could then make the form for the lamination by looking at the picture.

 

I'm sure I can do that in the next week or so. Just need to grab a camera and get over to the folk's place.

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One bare hull lying in the garden, all fitted out boats in shelter for the winter, except those currently in Melbourne. Sorry to have no better help.

 

Don't be sorry... I appreciate any help I can get :)

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The 470 is almost in the water. I just need to make a tiller. If anyone has got measurements (I really just need the length) or pictures of tiller setups (or any other 470 pics, like rigging), I'd really appreciate it.

Thanks,

-Nick

post-16705-1196372768_thumb.jpgpost-16705-1196372789_thumb.jpgpost-16705-1196372813_thumb.jpgpost-16705-1196372850_thumb.jpg

 

 

What make of 470 is it? It looks like a Vanguard. Do you have the rudder and rudder head? My Vanguard had an aluminum rudder head with a wooden tiller that went into it through the hole in tha transom. The rudder downhaul line held the tiller in place and in turn the tiller kept the rudder on the pintles. I once had the downhaul line break in 25 kts.; the rudder popped up, we capsized, the tiller came out, the rudder slid off the pintles and sunk to the borrom of Lake Champlain!! We retrieved the tiller and sailed 6 miles to shore rudderless and it wasn't pretty.

 

If you have the seperate rudderhead and tiller I'd strongly suggest you have a pin in the tiller or a secondary way to keep the rudder on the pintles.

 

The newer style on 470's is a one piece rudderhead and tiller that's held on the transom with a pin and clip.

 

I'll have my Parker 470 out tomorrow and I'll take some pics and measurements. The transom is slightly different from a Parker but the tiller dimensions are roughly the same.

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Thanks for the advice, you cleared a lot of things up for me that I was confused about. :D You're right... It's a vanguard, #271. The boat didn't come with sails, a rudder, rudderhead, or tiller. I just bought an old rudder and rudderhead (no tiller) from a vanguard- aluminum like you said. At first I was confused about how the rudder would stay down on the pintles, then I saw where the tiller goes into the rudder, and understood. However, I still couldn't get how the tiller was held into the rudder- I'll take your advice and be sure to install some kind of pin. Right now I'm in the middle of laminating my tiller (see thread; "check out this tiller!"). I laminated the tiller with enough curve to clear the tanks, and with some extra length (about 50" overall) so that as soon as I got the dimensions from someone I could just cut it down. I'd really appreciate it if you could give me the length of the tiller, say, from the transom to the fwrd. end of the tiller. That way I could just mark that same measurement from my transom, and not have to worry about any differences we might have in the amount of tiller that extends past the transom, into the rudderhead.

Thanks again,

-Nick

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I measured mine and from the transom (inboard) to the tiller extension attachment point is 37". I think as I remember the old tiller was about 4" shorter. Both work fine as the boat is so well balanced that it can be sailed with 2 fingers, much lighter but less forgiving upwind than my 505.

 

How is your jib halyard rigged? With the cut on newer sails you'll need lots of purchase to get the rig tight enough to bend the mast. I think it's one of the most important tuning controls on the boat. I use a 4:1 course adjustment and 24:1 fine. A hefty kicker is also a necessity a 16:1 cascade works great.The other thing you might want to do is modify your spreaders for adjustable rake. I mainly day sail the 470 and even for that tuning is important if you want a screaming upwind plane. An adjustable strop for the mainsail helps alot especially in light air. If it's fixed and adjusted for heavy air you can't get the boom on center without getting the leech too tight in light air. If it's set for light air you can't get enough leech tension in a blow.

 

Where's the boat located?

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I was looking at the pictures you posted. The forestay on the 470 holds the mast up only when the jib is down. it should be fixed in the mast. The jib halyard takes the load when it's up. To accomplish this you need to run 1/8" wire or as I prefer because it's easier to work with 5/32 vectran through the pocket in the jib luff. There is a loop at each end of the line or wire. The end at the tack is attached to the bowplate and the other end attached to the jib halyard which should be 1/8" 7x19 wire. The wire goes through the sheave in the mast and comes out a slot at the bottom/ back of the mast below the gooseneck. The wire should be just long enough so that when the jib is raised the end of the wire which has a loop on it just comes out of the slot. There is a tail of line attached to the loop so the jib can be let down. The loop on the end of the wire attaches to a hook on a block and tackle to adjust the halyard tension. Your's may have a magic box which doesn't have sufficent throw.

 

You'll now have a jib that slides up and down on the halyard. The top is tied off on the line or wire that was run through the luff. You'll have to adjust the length by trial and error so the foot is on the deck with the rig tensioned. The tack is then either tied to the bowplate or a simple cunningham (better and allowed by the rules) is rigged.

 

I'll rig my boat and post some pictures for you. The way your jib is rigged if you get enough tension on it to keep the luff from sagging less than a foot you'll ruin the jib by streching the luff and they look like brand new sails.

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Thanks Dave,

Thusfar you've provided just about the most help I've received from anyone. The jib halyard/ luff situation was one thing I was confused about, a topic I've discussed with a few people. I knew that there had to be some kind of luff wire, but on my boat, I still don't know how I should be tensioning my halyard/ luff wire. There are a few tackles that I have yet to figure out... it's probably one of those. I just ordered some dyform wire from APS for my luff wire- reccommended by the lady who sold me the sails (Isabelle Kinsolving... she placed in the olympics a few years back... with these sails!). I look forward to your pics... thanks again for that, and all the advice and info.

-Nick

p.s.- the boat's located on Long Island. I sail on the Sound, out of Huntington Harbor.

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Nick,

 

Dyeform is really the best but be very careful not to kink it or it's junk. In 505's it's what's usually used but some of the guys that have been in the class for years are changing to vectran because it's much cheaper, easier to work with, you don't have to worry about kinking it and in your case you can leave it in the jib when you roll it up; thats what I do.

 

Pictures are in this mornings mail.

 

Dave

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Nick,

 

Dyeform is really the best but be very careful not to kink it or it's junk. In 505's it's what's usually used but some of the guys that have been in the class for years are changing to vectran because it's much cheaper, easier to work with, you don't have to worry about kinking it and in your case you can leave it in the jib when you roll it up; thats what I do.

 

Pictures are in this mornings mail.

 

Dave

Dave,

(or anyone else for that matter)

Will I be able to put an eye in the dyform with a normal nicro press? Or will I have to have it done by a rigging place or something? I think maybe the latter- if kinking it is such a concern?

Thanks a lot in advance for the pictures, I'm sure they'll be loads of help.

-Nick

P.S., Where are you sailing the 5oh?

 

 

-sorry berzerk, never heard of a 490.

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Dave,

(or anyone else for that matter)

Will I be able to put an eye in the dyform with a normal nicro press? Or will I have to have it done by a rigging place or something? I think maybe the latter- if kinking it is such a concern?

Thanks a lot in advance for the pictures, I'm sure they'll be loads of help.

-Nick P.S., Where are you sailing the 5oh? -sorry berzerk, never heard of a 490.

 

Nick PM me your snail mail address and I will send you a luff wire all made up and jib halyard set up, I have several in the basement.. Scott

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Dave,

(or anyone else for that matter)

Will I be able to put an eye in the dyform with a normal nicro press? Or will I have to have it done by a rigging place or something? I think maybe the latter- if kinking it is such a concern?

Thanks a lot in advance for the pictures, I'm sure they'll be loads of help.

-Nick

P.S., Where are you sailing the 5oh?

-sorry berzerk, never heard of a 490.

 

Nick,

 

You have to have it done at a rigging shop which makes it darn expensive; another reason I use vectran.

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Nick,

 

You have to have it done at a rigging shop which makes it darn expensive; another reason I use vectran.

Ouch... luckily scott (the boathouse) just really generously offerred me one- ready to go. I'll use what he gives me, and I'll always have the dyform wire I ordered, that I can get swaged whenever, as a backup.

 

That's what I love about the dinghy community... everybody helps everybody out. If that wasn't the case, I don't know how I'd be getting this boat in the water.

 

Thanks again everybody,

-Nick

P.S. - Is vectran class legal for the luff wire?

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Nope

 

 

Vectran IS class legal for the luff wire but not the forestay. The class rules state thet the shrouds and forestay must be made of wire not less than 2.3mm dia. The forestay while under tension must not allow the mast to disengage from the partners. They also say that a piece of shockchord can be put on the forestay to keep it under tension when rigged. There is no mention of what the Luff Wire and or jib halyard should be made of.

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  • 6 years later...

What a timely post! I have nearly the same problem - no functional tiller for my old Vanguard 470, Hull #354. The old wood tiller started to delaminate where it inserts into the rudder. This I noticed last year on my last chance to get the boat sailing while vacationing on Lake Champlain, and it took all my willpower to make myself stop and unrig rather than see if it would hold up.

 

Since then, I soaked the tiller for three weeks in water, whereupon it came apart easily into three pieces of oak. The middle one had rotted much more than was apparent, particularly where it was pierced for the bolt holes holding the downhaul cleat. The middle section was also split and repaired poorly where it entered the rudder, so I made the right decision last summer. It was definitely weak, and having the tiller come apart in the middle of the lake risked loss of the boat and maybe me.

 

So I can take some dimensions off the pieces I have. The lower piece is 35.25 inches long, and it fit into the rudder 6 inches deep. All three pieces are 7/8 inch wide. The bottom two pieces are at maximum 3/4 inch thick, and the top piece maximum is 5/8 inch.

 

The shapes are complex as shown in the next two photos. Oops, can't just paste in JPG pictures. Gotta figure out how to upload and link to photos. The shapes at the rudder end serve to elevate the rest of the tiller, and there is a reverse bend near the top of the tiller. The soaking has allowed these pieces to relax to differing degrees, so they don't agree as seen above. I recall that the top of the tiller was level where the tiller extension attached. I guess all three pieces started out as three feet of 1x1 inch oak each.

 

I am not sure what I will do next. I had thought to put it back together with fresh quality epoxy, before I saw the poor condition of the inner piece. Wonder how much a new one costs, and therefore how much effort this one should get?

 

Chris

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Ooops, I made a mistake! The 470 tiller is 47 inches long. My piece is actually slightly over that by 1/4 inch, but shouldn't matter. Rise is hard to calculate because the bottom part fitting into the rudder is curved, but I would say rise is 3 inches or so. Recall mine has been soaked and may have relaxed.

 

The big news is that RudderCraft at 866 400-2204 (or see ruddercraft.com) has "A Stock Tiller type B" that is 47" l x 1.5" w x 2" deep, with a rise of 4.75 inches. It is laminated of mahogany and ash, all for $100 unfinished. I can cut this in half vertically lengthwise and make two tiller blanks. Cut the curve in the bottom until it fits, finish it and I'm done. And it is new wood without 30+ years of dry rot. Such a deal!

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