New Foiler

[pchanez 0]

Here we are ... First pictures of Thomas new foiler ... nothing to do with an 18' anymore, except the rig ...

 

A big structure in tube, and under a hull from a M2 catamaran... Note that on the pictures, this hull is not there. Due to a strict deadlines, Thomas used 2 types of temporary hull : Pipes and then polystyrene/foam like hull (the white one)

 

I'm sure Thomas will add some comment here in a near future (ie after the press conference today)

[Ross 31]

wait for it, wait for it!!!!!

 

[the_skiff_devil 0]

Well, I guess that the country that gave the world the foiling car, and more recently the submarine car, has finally bought us the foiling oil rig.

 

Just before anyone else gets it in: WHAT'S IT RATE?!?!

 

And um.. is that a skiff?

[pchanez 0]

Some more

[teknologika 5]

Man that is UGLY, and would have to have heaps more windage than his foiling 18.

[dougculnane 0]

Shit guys you do not piss about when you design.

 

Very interesting amazing concept. Even the boom is low windage. Is this a step to far or is it ther way of the future?.... I do not know but I love the boat. It is great to see a foiling machine rather than a sailing boat with strap on foils. 10 out of 10 from me for design bravery.

 

What are the results of the first trials?

[dougculnane 0]

Have I got this right? Is it a foiling frame with strap on hulls? This is a clever concept as apposed to a foiling boat with strap on foils. 11 out of 10 for design bravery. The jury is still out on the results as it looks like too much to get right first time.

[pchanez 0]

Have I got this right? Is it a foiling frame with strap on hulls? This is a clever concept as apposed to a foiling boat with strap on foils. 11 out of 10 for design bravery. The jury is still out on the results as it looks like too much to get right first time.

 

 

yep ... 3d view available here :

http://www.18footer.org/divers/mirabaud_lx.pdf

[dougculnane 0]

Foil separation looks too much to me. I am very interested to see how this goes on choppy water. I suspect that there could be problems keeping the foils from breaking the surface.

[dougculnane 0]

Nice 3D model. I think she looks great when you get used to her unusual looks. It is not exactly 18 ft long but who cares.

 

Sea trail results???????

[Ross 31]

Foil separation looks too much to me. I am very interested to see how this goes on choppy water. I suspect that there could be problems keeping the foils from breaking the surface.

 

 

closer together and longer?

 

 

The thing is a tad bit butt ugly, but the computer graphic version is very snazzy, can't wait to see it!

[punter 0]

If that is what the revolution looks like, then count me out.

[dougculnane 0]

Play with the 3D model a bit have a break then come back to it. I reacon she will grow on you. If you saw a pic of a 18tf skif for the first time and had only ever seen 20ft day sailors you would also be shocked and call it ugly. She is a foiling machine and fancy her.

[Munter 0]

Apparently it comes from the planet "Tube"...

[FIGJAM 0]

its gonna hurt in a big crash!! But i bet its so much FUN to sail, how could you ever get bored of flying around with two of your best mates? Ive had a lot of my good friends sailing my moth recently, it makes it tons of fun!

[dougculnane 0]

I am guessing here but I suspect that they want to play around with hulls to see what works best. Then the next version will have a hull that is used as a structural beam as well as flotation tank. Then the amount of tubes can be reduced a bit. The tubing on the boom is maybe too much. I would wrap some sail cloth round it for end plate stuff but then it would not look so radical.

 

Carbon tube manafacturers are going to like the boat (or machine) though.

[dougculnane 0]

its gonna hurt in a big crash!! But i bet its so much FUN to sail, how could you ever get bored of flying around with two of your best mates? Ive had a lot of my good friends sailing my moth recently, it makes it tons of fun!

 

Useful for having fun with your friends and impaling your enemies...

[AlStorer 4]

Well, that's a bit, um, different. Certainly not good looking in any conventional sense- though the yellow bouyancy bags don't do it any favours in that respect.

I have t admit, that is pretty revolutionary, though really not in the way DL seems to bang on about- I'm willing to bet that it's far from easy to sail, and I would reckon it's rubbish at jumping Wouldn't mind finding out first hand though!

[67ljf 0]

Some older 16 foot skiff guys from the 70s and 80s will see the resemblence to the old alloy space frame boats, the are just carbon now and lots more of them, all it needs is a ply skin. anyone got any old 16 hull pics

How does it go handling the big rig tensions similar to 18s, ive heard storys of over 2000kg at mast step

I would have thought a carbon sandwich construction would be stronger than frames, whats all the engineers out there think

Figjams rite about very painfull stacks, all those tubes could really do some damage to delicate areas, maybe need an armour suit for big breeze

Good luck

[IC youth movement 8]

Hot shit! Wow, impressive work guys, unlike some others here you have really put your money where your mouth is. Definitely pure balls.

 

How much does she weigh?

 

 

It's now 6:30 on the east coast, my bet is that DL's brain is going to explode within the next two hours.

[dougculnane 0]

It's now 6:30 on the east coast, my bet is that DL's brain is going to explode within the next two hours.

 

Small things make small explosions. I suggest you all put him on your ignore list now to make the world a better place.

 

I do not want to speack for the guys that did this because I am only guessing, but it looks like they made a foiling frame and tested it with a basic hull and added the bags for safety to stop it totally sinking. With the results of this test they have a design hull size to design. This then gets strapped on and tested, or refined. If the concept works then you can make a structural hull and save a bit of weight later. Seams clever to me if this is right?

 

Therefore give her a chance to grow up before you say she is ugly. She is just a spotty geeky teen that is about to become a babe I reacon.

[Chris 249 0]

Fascinating, and pretty logical (as far as I know).

 

So, in 5-10 years time, will we still talk about foilers as another sort of dinghy, or as something as different from dinghies as windsurfers and cats? I wouldn't be surprised if they'll be seen as as very different machines to dinghy foilers as we know them; perhaps sailing from different clubs, with different courses and wind limits, and rigs, and techniques, and fans.

[dougculnane 0]

Fascinating, and pretty logical (as far as I know).

 

So, in 5-10 years time, will we still talk about foilers as another sort of dinghy, or as something as different from dinghies as windsurfers and cats? I wouldn't be surprised if they'll be seen as as very different machines to dinghy foilers as we know them; perhaps sailing from different clubs, with different courses and wind limits, and rigs, and techniques, and fans.

 

Like asymetric boats? or planing Hull boats? or boat with daggerboards? or Aluminium Masts... or any other technical step in sailng development?

 

IMHO: This is just evolution. These guys have done a great job at jumping ahead but they can because they to not have to race against other boats. So they can afford to get the experiment wrong. Most class development is done in small steps so you have an edge to compete with not some mad experimental prototype that half works. (no offence to this project but I have seen a few mad experimental prototypes that half work.)

 

It looks dramatic but it is just another sailing boat. Maybe it is even a dam cool one but we need to know more about the sea trails. Roll on the Evolution. DL STFU about Revolution.

[FIGJAM 0]

Figjams rite about very painfull stacks, all those tubes could really do some damage to delicate areas, maybe need an armour suit for big breeze

Good luck

 

 

I would only be seen sailing this wearing my steel super flexi/ ultra light super man suit! DL, if you put yours into production and sell them i'm sure you could have a small sailing kit revolution on your hands! Oh no wait, Zhik have done this and you missed it! SLACK!

[pchanez 0]

How does it go handling the big rig tensions similar to 18s, ive heard storys of over 2000kg at mast step

I would have thought a carbon sandwich construction would be stronger than frames, whats all the engineers out there think

 

Thomas is engineer and he sized the mast step to support 2000 kg ... so we will see if his calculations are correct during the next weeks

[dougculnane 0]

Sorry to SPAM this thread. Maybe you should put me on your ignore list too.

 

Looking at the rig it is very interesting. The jib is small and the main has a huge head. I guess again that this is so that the size of the sail is big when you need power to get up on the foils. Then when up you can twist it off and depower. The sail becomes more like a windsurfer sail and modern moth sail where the top is floppy. How well this works I suspect depends on how well refined it is.

 

Also looking at the rig the spinaker is becomming more and more redundant. How close are they from getting rid of it and all the weight and crap in the boat. You could then have a larger flatter jib that is low drag upwind and a bit geniker like downwind. You could also loose a crew member in light winds.

 

I know this is not 18 rule complient but then nor is this machine.

 

However since this machine will not go dramatically faster than tranditional 18s (or will it) maybe the rig is one development jump too far to soon?

[dougculnane 0]

Found more info here: http://www.18footer.org/News/AllNews/tabid...32/Default.aspx

[GybeSet 19]

it's the future and the future is here now, it's a revolution, join here now scuzbuckets

[dougculnane 0]

So the hulls in the picture are really strap on hulls. You can even see the straps.

[pchanez 0]

Sorry to SPAM this thread. Maybe you should put me on your ignore list too.

 

Looking at the rig it is very interesting. The jib is small and the main has a huge head. I guess again that this is so that the size of the sail is big when you need power to get up on the foils. Then when up you can twist it off and depower. The sail becomes more like a windsurfer sail and modern moth sail where the top is floppy. How well this works I suspect depends on how well refined it is.

 

Also looking at the rig the spinaker is becomming more and more redundant. How close are they from getting rid of it and all the weight and crap in the boat. You could then have a larger flatter jib that is low drag upwind and a bit geniker like downwind. You could also loose a crew member in light winds.

 

I know this is not 18 rule complient but then nor is this machine.

 

However since this machine will not go dramatically faster than tranditional 18s (or will it) maybe the rig is one development jump too far to soon?

 

 

They are sailing with rig #1 main and rig#2 jib ... it was not that windy (around 10 knots ... I was sailing too), but I guess they decided to start small as the boat is new and not completly finished yet.

 

The spinaker is in fact a Code Zero

[MT14er 1]

Maybe its just me, but I have some real doubts that a frame hull like that would actually be more aerodynamic than a simple low profile hull. With the apparent wind angle as forward as it is on fast boats, it looks like a forest of individual drag on all the tube. I may be totally wrong though. Also, whats to prevent this thing from going end over end every time the nose hits the water?

[blunted 387]

Full respect to Thomas for that.

 

It's not ugly, its simply not "Normal".

 

Jenna Jameson is not "Normal" nor is she ugly.

[TeamFugu 23]

Sweet flying machine. I with Doug Culnane on this one. I think the tubing will be a bit of drag but then you have to think of it as the guts of the structure and it doesn't have a skin on it yet. As was initially stated, the pictured floation and hull were foam and strapped on. Once installed, the hull will be there only for a bit of initial floatation and to help cut drag down. It will be a skin only and the current tubing is what really makes the machine work. There may be more drag issues to work out later but it looks promising.

 

As for the rig, It is an 18 rig to cut down on time spent development and testing. It has become the state of the art in the current 18's and is primarily to cut down on drag at the top of the main and automatically depower with little drag as some have guessed. If the gennaker stays, I think it will become smaller, flatter and be more of a staysail than a spinnaker.

 

These guys deserver a lot of kudos for going way out on a limb to try this on their own. My hat is off to you guys.

[bgulari 7]

I would agree that the aero drag has to be higher than if it was a enclosed shape.. if you disagree i encourage you to put mesh on your moth.

 

Very cool though, i wonder why in all of the videos i have ever seen there is never 3 guys fully out on the trap...

Also needs a touch more AOA on the front horizontal.

[IC youth movement 8]

wow, just realized the main foil is in front of the mast! is it really balanced like that?

[βhyde 1,616]

I'm pretty sure that someone in the trailer park behind the boat is saying, "Hey, who the f*ck stole my patio furniture!"

 

 

Freakish, but really cool. Could you imagine the first big fleet race with about 20 of these things running around?

[theycallmegod 1]

It's incredibly ugly, but strangly beautiful.....

 

 

 

Or is that just me....

 

BTW, can i start a sweepstake on which word Doug will use most?

Im going for 'revolution', but other options include 'Peoples Foiler', lots of irrelevant thumbnails, or some slightly odd figures no-one understands...

[dougculnane 0]

Link from the SA front page to a nice video:

[Tabman 43]

It's incredibly ugly, but strangly beautiful.....

Or is that just me....

 

BTW, can i start a sweepstake on which word Doug will use most?

Im going for 'revolution', but other options include 'Peoples Foiler', lots of irrelevant thumbnails, or some slightly odd figures no-one understands...

 

This is very cool! And it is "Strangely Beautiful" in a real form follows function way. Sort of the same way a stealth fighter is cool looking! I wonder if the tubing "whistles" as it gets into higher speed ranges?

 

As far as Doug Lord goes, somehow he will try to apply the hard work, innovation and commitment of others to include him. It's pitiful actually.

[Amati 1,685]

I really like the idea that a foiler should not be allowed a hull. It's very pure. When I speculated that a future of the Moth class might be getting rid of the hull, I didn't realized I was behind the times.

 

Paul

 

Aware, but Slow...............

[gui 0]

I would agree that the aero drag has to be higher than if it was a enclosed shape.. if you disagree i encourage you to put mesh on your moth.

 

[...]

 

Did you ever put tell tales on/around your tramp? I always wonder what's up on the leeward side of the boat.

 

It reminds me of Outlook(?) built for the Quincy cup or something? Cool looking boat.

[m.h.valentine 1]

Reminds me of something from that movie "Waterworld", except that this doesn't suck. My favourite part was the cheering when it came up on the foils -- that made all the work these guys did seem very real. Not to say that anyone else's work isn't real... 'cause I would never say that.

 

I'm taking a moment to enjoy the peace and quiet before He Who Shall Be Ignored announces his discovery of The People's Foiling Birdcage and sets off the shitstorm. Get your tin foil hats on, here it comes...

[Matt D 6]

Hats off for designing and building it, talk about going down a different path!

[longy 703]

I have to believe that the tube frame construction was the cheapest way to build that "boat". Just buy a stock of mass produced, off the shelf carbon tube & then glue the joints together. Easily modified. No hull molding/3-D curves/laminating/bagging etc. They may have even used different wall thickness tube to get more weight savings. A bit strange looking, but a very viable boat/test bed for his concepts.

[BeachbumII 0]

Well, I guess that the country that gave the world the foiling car, and more recently the submarine car, has finally bought us the foiling oil rig.

 

Just before anyone else gets it in: WHAT'S IT RATE?!?!

 

And um.. is that a skiff?

 

The french were the first on the oilrig:

 

Lada Poch.

[Steve Clark 920]

Very cool project.

Isn't it wonderfull that you can lace together elaborate structures out of carbon tubing?

Completely changed my fabrication life about 20 years ago.

At the risk of baiting the bears; I might point out that if this boat fits within the 25' long 14' wide box and sets not more than 300 square feet of sail, it would qualify as the C Class foiler Doug Lord has been ranting about.

This is because the "hull" such as it is is infact a catamaran, or at least it seems to be two small hulls set right next to each other.

This was the Fredo's suggestion that Doug rejected.

So Thomas, any thought of limiting the range of the experiment and sailing as a Class C Catamaran?

SHC

[Lunada9 0]

"This was the Fredo's suggestion that Doug rejected." Steve Clark

 

 

You mean, The Master Cylinder, The Flying Pervert of EEE Cupville, his honor Doug Lord, actually rejected a suggestion from one of the guys he loves to drool about?

 

I'm totally aghast.

 

[

[lakepirate 0]

Looks like a cool way to try out an idea without too much time one the computer. Maybe a little bit of a step backwards though, tube frames = NASCAR, monocoque = F1…

 

Since a boat hull is already a monocoque structure, I wonder if they went that route if it would just end up looking like, well, a boat?

[pchanez 0]

I have to believe that the tube frame construction was the cheapest way to build that "boat". Just buy a stock of mass produced, off the shelf carbon tube & then glue the joints together. Easily modified. No hull molding/3-D curves/laminating/bagging etc. They may have even used different wall thickness tube to get more weight savings. A bit strange looking, but a very viable boat/test bed for his concepts.

 

Not sure it is cheaper ... they used different wall thickness for sure, everything is calculated

[eatonfd 5]

I'm impressed. I even like the way it looks, in its own unique kind of way. Congratulations and best wishes to the guys involved.

[kanaka 0]

skin the hull like an inuit kayak. lighter than the floats. looks like a boat (maybe) and reduces windage.

[blunted 387]

Skin the thing with 100 weight Clysar, and it would work fine (For those that do not know Clysar is what we skin the wings with)

[Lunada9 0]

I'm not so sure that simply skinning the space frame would make this boat more aerodynamic. It all depends on the shape being described by the frame, itself, as to what the skin will yield for a surface. That would not necessarily be aerodynamically efficient.

 

Perhaps a better way to keep it light and simple would be to use some tubing that is being suggested on a post over at Boatdesign.net. http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/showthrea...3513&page=4

 

"A little research on available structural material for their project would have led them to a truly innovative carbon solution called ISO-Truss for their tubing. I suspect that they would have saved weight, enhanced the aero component and significantly reduced any drag associated with waves and spray.

 

Check it out here: http://www.isotruss.org/

 

Below is a shot of the tubing being used for the frame of a mountain bike."

 

The post included this shot of a mountain bike made from the tubing.

 

 

[Tabman 43]

skin the hull like an inuit kayak. lighter than the floats. looks like a boat (maybe) and reduces windage.

 

I thought the same thing, sort of like Platt Monfort's stuff;

 

[Cheesy 0]

Some older 16 foot skiff guys from the 70s and 80s will see the resemblence to the old alloy space frame boats, the are just carbon now and lots more of them, all it needs is a ply skin. anyone got any old 16 hull pics

How does it go handling the big rig tensions similar to 18s, ive heard storys of over 2000kg at mast step

I would have thought a carbon sandwich construction would be stronger than frames, whats all the engineers out there think

Figjams rite about very painfull stacks, all those tubes could really do some damage to delicate areas, maybe need an armour suit for big breeze

Good luck

 

You mean something like this?

[chucktheskiffie 0]

here he is... DL is posting...

 

WAIT FOR IT!!!

 

5 User(s) are reading this topic (1 Guests and 0 Anonymous Users)

4 Members: Doug Lord, kprice, nige, chucktheskiffie

[Doug Lord 1,219]

Most impressive, Thomas! Steve was right: it is(or could be) legal in the C Class-how do you think the two "hulls" work in comparison to a small single hull in building takeoff speed?. I'm most impressed by the forward foil position-seems like that will vastly help the pitch response of the boat. Probably the most important monofoiler innovation since the wand-assuming the balance is still good. Saw a while ago that the Arc 21 catamaran used a concept they call"shared lift" where the daggerboard was made smaller and moved forward of the mast. They said it worked well....

Again, you guys have truly done a 'revolutionary' boat -what a great job!

Congratulations!!

[EthanB 0]

I like it -- the video is jaw-dropping.

 

I wonder, however, if the designed hull (which they don't have yet) isn't too vestigial-- Even the best Moth sailors touch down during a tack.. . I'm thinking that in the interest of wave piercing and water shedding, it might be wise to look at catamaran design -- Infusion, Capricorn, A2, etc. Maybe in a later evolution, the hull (or hulls..?) can be simply a large lower beam, and upper trusses can be added to provide stiffness, trapezing racks, etc as necessary.

 

But for now, nevermind my speculation. Good on them for making a very cool toy!

[Doug Lord 1,219]

Anyone interested in exploring the concept of the forward vertical fin should see the link below to the description of Bill Roberts "Shared Lift" concept. The forward foil on the foiler is an extraordinarily good idea which may be a way to improve the pitch characterisics of any monofoiler provided it is implemented well.This kind of innovative work is something Thomas and his team should be most proud of!

http://www.aquarius-sail.com/catamarans/arc21/index.htm

[jfunk 4]

So is it faster?

[Tabman 43]

Anyone interested in exploring the concept of the forward vertical fin should see the link below to the description of Bill Roberts "Shared Lift" concept. The forward foil on the foiler is an extraordinarily good idea which may be a way to improve the pitch characterisics of any monofoiler provided it is implemented well.This kind of innovative work is something Thomas and his team should be most proud of!

http://www.aquarius-sail.com/catamarans/arc21/index.htm

 

 

Doug, AKA Mr. Lord,

 

I might be one of the first to call you out. However two very nice and thoughtful posts! Good stuff!

[Lummux the Great 0]

Ahh the age old question... monoque or spaceframe and skins... which is stronger for it's weight? Crunch the numbers..

 

If doug had crunched the numbers he may have found a trimaran configuration can carry more sail area per unit weight and per unit of wetted surface (I think actually having a surface to wet is a pretty good idea)

 

monofoilers are cool, but they will occupy a nitch shared by windsurfers, kiteboards and crackpipes. A "peoples foiler" "monofoiler" is about as likely as a sex tape of ellen degeneres doing richard simmons turning up on you tube.

 

Take Doug Lord, the dude is a fit as professional bowler. Could he work one of these carbon fiber monsters? That poor boat would see more ups and downs than a porn stars buttcrack.

 

A peoples foiler has to be abled to be sailed by a people.... by a fatass basically. A slow, mushy, 12 big mac eating, forum troll has to be able to sail it. It has to be a tri.

[High Flow 1]

this it the biggest bull shit i've ever seen!

i didn't even know you could pile shit that high!

they obviously tried the minimal approach but in my few failed completely. if you go the minimal approach you'll end up with something like a moth or a surfboard.

these swiss guys are bringing in a lot of crap lately. obviously they have too much money and not enough wind!

Did anybody tell them that is been at least 10 years ago since making complete bullshit out of carbon was considered cool?

thing about those poor children in afrika dudes!

why don't they go to places like SF bay or Sydney harbour and sail real boat like real men?

[SimonN 626]

As Ethan so correctly points out, the biggest issue will be to sort out "touch down"! Look at the end of the video! It is suprising how much of the time a foiler is in the water, even if it is only a touch down and immediate lift off. I also have concerns about the bouyancy bags! How much drag are they adding! However, without them the boat would be at the bottom of the lake by now.

 

I think it is interesting that they were only able to save 20kgs compared with an 18' skiff. I wonder if that includes the "hull skins".

 

I love the way that DL has to latch onto something as being "probably the most important innovation....". He is probably unaware that others have tried moving the foil forward, including one that went to the bow. However, those were on single sailed boats and maybe the jib will help. However, the really interesting thing about foil position is that I don't think it will be very hard to move the main foil and therefore Thomas will be able to find the idea position, something that a more conventional boat cannot do without major surgery.

 

Overall, it's an interesting concept, but it has a lot of questions still to answer.

[Liquid 493]

Interesting yacht that's for sure. Not a people's foiler, but a foiler for sure.

 

The real question has already been asked: Is it faster?

 

Also, if you eject the 'hulls' and the wind dies, what then?

[Amati 1,685]

As I was watching the video, did I see the machine rise up just a little while they were pushing it out? One of the guys does crack a smile.......

 

Does the French aerospace industry have it's own Boeing Surplus? Like a CRIT Surplus? I bought some spectra tubes at Boeing Surplus that apparently weren't supposed to be sold (I found out later) once upon a time. $.50 a pound. Prepreg Kevlar $.75 a pound. A roll of prepreg spectra for $1.00 a pound. Titanium tubes that were impossible to cut, etc.

 

There were some guys with french accents prowling around......

 

'Bye the way, one of the commercial foiler companies (Windrider) was selling it's aluminum foil stock by the foot about a year ago- verticals, and horizontals (and their flaps). Nice aluminum pieces, and they offered to anodize them. I think they are too heavy for an IC rudder or centerboard, although if the hull was light enough, one of them might make an IC self righting. The Dr. down in Florida designed the foils. Or so the guys at the warehouse said.

 

You too can build a foiler!

 

Paul

[cdc 0]

Maybe the tube look is trying to state that if you foil, you don't need to float. A little bit like the windsurfer sinker boards were saying, if you plane, you don't need to float. Windsurfers moved away from that though.

[chucktheskiffie 0]

imagine how many tenders you would need for a race of a few of these!!

 

interesting concept in theory (dropping the hulls) however not workable in practice...

[ballmon 28]

Why that's a fucking flying machine you idiots. It requires a pilots license and this thread should be moved to Sport Aviation!

[SoCalSlacker 8]

Something interesting is the two wands at angles. It seams like this would fly the boat a little higher upwind when rocked up and lower when flat which would be good? also moves wand wake away from foils. I guess the added drag of two wands down wind would be bad, maybe some way to gybe the wands would solve that.

[Sailingkid 3]

Its a good idea bit it looks different. I think you should just build a moth style hull, then build the wings foils etc onto that. That way you save on the windage from the pipes and it looks cool as well. I like the rig though.

[eratica 0]

the idea of the capricorn hull is the best yet i think and it would look very horny- and float-

[Doug Lord 1,219]

From Scuttlebutt this morning:

NOT THE FAMILY BUICK

Geneva, April 29, 2008 - The brand new sailing boat Mirabaud LX was

presented to the media this morning at Société Nautique de Genève, in

Switzerland. Supported by the Banque Mirabaud & Cie banquiers privés, this

project is the result of Thomas Jundt's creativity and experience with

highly competitive sailing boats. Aimed at flying on its hydrofoils, this

33-foot prototype has a very special characteristic: it has no hulls,

although a marginal floatability remains, aimed at preventing the boat from

sinking until it reaches flying speeds (approx 8 knots). Conceived around a

structure of carbon fiber tubes, weighing only 330 pound, this boat is a

concentrate of high technology. Every single element has been optimized in

order to reduce the overall weight and allow it to fly on its foils as

quickly as possible. As of today, it is the only "hull less" boat on earth.

-- Full story and photos: http://www.sailingscuttlebutt.com/news/08/0429

=================

Technical datas :

 

LOA : 10m

 

Width (structure, without the ladders) : 1,8m

 

Weight : 150 kg ( 25 kg for the foils)

 

Surface of sails (upwind) : 32m2

 

Surface of sails (downwind) : 62m2

[punter 0]

Shouldn't there be some "floating" aspect to this boat. Foiling gybes and tacks I believe can be difficult in a 11ft moth. But this thing is 30ft long and has 3 guys and a greater width. It may be fast in a straight line. But how many courses are a straight line? Only one I can think of is the world speed record and that is 500m. On a sailing course they would have to bang the corner everytime as changing direction would be dead slow and carbon pipes dragging through the water is a lot slower than a standard hull. Need more force to re-foil again to overcome this drag. Interesting concept, but to me extreme left field.

[MT14er 1]

The more I'm thinking about this the more I'm having trouble figuring out what the purpose of this boat is. It is a really cool concept, but what is it going to do? There is no practical way that you could race boats like this. Foils stall and you will fall out of the sky or touch down in a tack. Racing would just turn into a game of who can stay on the foils the longest. Tacking duels would be decided by which boat didn't sink. The aerodynamic drag of the frame structure will limit the boats top speed, so it probably won't be exceptionally fast in a strait line and the zero recovery aspect will make it really hard to push the limits of speed. The boat will be light so it will fly really early, which is cool, but that seems more like a novelty than anything else. It would be good to find out what the ultimate goal and purpose of this boat is.

[nige 53]

The more I'm thinking about this the more I'm having trouble figuring out what the purpose of this boat is. It is a really cool concept, but what is it going to do? There is no practical way that you could race boats like this. Foils stall and you will fall out of the sky or touch down in a tack. Racing would just turn into a game of who can stay on the foils the longest. Tacking duels would be decided by which boat didn't sink. The aerodynamic drag of the frame structure will limit the boats top speed, so it probably won't be exceptionally fast in a strait line and the zero recovery aspect will make it really hard to push the limits of speed. The boat will be light so it will fly really early, which is cool, but that seems more like a novelty than anything else. It would be good to find out what the ultimate goal and purpose of this boat is.

 

If you read the daily sail article, the plan is to be able to strap differnet hulls to the bottom to experiment so there will be a hull. They just dont have it built yet. (an 8m cat hull is the current plan by the sounds of it).

 

I am not sure they are going to see any weight savings as apparently this frame only saved 20KG's but it does allow easy hull develpment.

[dougculnane 0]

The more I'm thinking about this the more I'm having trouble figuring out what the purpose of this boat is....

 

How about Fun. Sailing in light winded lakes is boring and these guys are making it interesting. Should they take up motor racing for kicks on light winded days?

 

Give it time and I am sure this will evolve and there could be the option to set up racing if there is a will to race them and boats to do so. Moths are racing on foils and it evolved to be far more tactical than in Lowriders due to the angles downwind and speed enableing you tr travel around the ocean looking for pressure. It takes time for these things to develop from straight line machines into racing craft, for a wide race of conditions.

 

The only thing Ugly about this are the strap on polystyrene hulls and flotation bags. These will evolve into a proper hull that is easier on the eye.

 

You guys are supposed to be Sailing Anarcists "Where the Status Quo Blows" Does this refer to the rock band or pushing the development of sailing. Maybe I do not understand this right, but I am supprised about the resistance to this concept, coming form various different quarters. What are you afraid of? Should this forum be "Where the Status Quo Rocks and we are quite happy about it so please lets keep it to 70s rock technologhy".

 

BTW there is a nice article on The Daily sail about this: http://www.thedailysail.com/ISM/articles.n...025743B00320B9E titled "Beauty or the beast?" (a title again indicating that people seam to have problems comming to terms with new stuff.)

[Amati 1,685]

Assuming you don't stop when you crash, does a big ski work? They are Swiss, after all........

 

[t_huebs 18]

...It would be good to find out what the ultimate goal and purpose of this boat is.

 

longy said it earlier. It seems to be a really efficient and relatively easy way to test concepts in reality, figure out what works, and what doesn't. This is by no means a finished product.

 

As they refine things it might be interesting to see how the weight v drag issues play out with regard to handling. It just might be that they'll touch down less than the moths, but I have no idea. Pretty soon I think they will though.

 

Huge points for building it and going out and trying things.

 

This is the epitome of form follows function and in her own way she's gorgeous.

[blunted 387]

 

C-class legal concept boat,

 

OK someone go build it now and be done with it. Only way to tell if it'll work.

 

Proposed tensiometer design enclosed as well.

 

 

B

C_class_multiflux_capacitor.bmp

[jfunk 4]

I think the point that a few of you are missing and the press release emphasises is that the boat requires 8kn of speed to start foiling. My question is how does it get up to that 8kn speed. Certainly it won't on that strap on foam. If you look at the video the boat is supported by a tender which tows it up to speed.

 

It's a fun concept and certainly a good frame for developing idea's, but as a stand alone boat at the moment, it doesn't work. I will be interested to see how proper strap on hulls affect it.

[Doug Lord 1,219]

I If you look at the video the boat is supported by a tender which tows it up to speed.

-------------------------------

What video did you watch? The boat achieved takeoff speed on its own... The numbers on this boat are equal to or better than a Moth. When it is sorted it will beat the crap out of a normal 18 .

[Doug Lord 1,219]

The video:

[Diver Dan 0]

-------------------------------

What video did you watch? The boat achieved takeoff speed on its own... The numbers on this boat are equal to or better than a Moth. When it is sorted it will beat the crap out of a normal 18 .

 

 

Doug you are a clown. Have you sailed an 18 in +20 knots in big seas? A moth has plenty on in 20+ knots but an 18 foiling in a blow...good luck. you my friend are nuts. Sure it would be faster in flat water and about 5knots after that they would be upside down.

 

But good on the boys it looks like fun. Dont think they will win the JJs but they will have some fun.

[bgulari 7]

I think in a sea state is when a foiler has a real advantage.

[the_skiff_devil 0]

I think it'd be a bit more than upside down... if you watch the end of the video, one of the floats broke and they both snapped their straps after a very low speed noseover. Now think what would happen if it nosed over in some decent breeze unless they make the floats a bit more integral to the structure? My guess is that this thing will eventually wind up as a big carbon deposit on the bottom of Lake Geneva at some stage.

[Doug Lord 1,219]

I think it'd be a bit more than upside down... if you watch the end of the video, one of the floats broke and they both snapped their straps after a very low speed noseover. Now think what would happen if it nosed over in some decent breeze unless they make the floats a bit more integral to the structure? My guess is that this thing will eventually wind up as a big carbon deposit on the bottom of Lake Geneva at some stage.

===================

What is it? Can you not read? Are you just not interested? Can't afford the Daily Sail? Christ, the guy described in detail that THIS IS A PROTOTYPE. That they will be shortly adding a 24' cat hull to the structure. That they will test all kinds of possibilities.

Comments like yours from the BLACK HOLE of uninformed ignorance are pitiful!!

[the_skiff_devil 0]

The only hole in here is you doug ... an ARSEHOLE for thinking that anyone who thinks contrary to you is completely ignorant.

I have a foiler and it flys and I have photographic proof of it Doug. How about you?

 

I'm interested in this thing as far as it's an interesting solution to a high speed sailing craft, but I think that it is seriously flawed in that the entire concept is based upon the idea that it'll be flying constantly, which we all know isn't going to happen. These things are inherantly instable regardless of how good the wave sensing gear gets (even with your beloved manual control and midship wand...) there will always be the chance of the boat flying out of a wave and nosediving, which puts the structure under some really serious stress.

 

And if these guys attach a 22' long cat hull, how can this thing still be your beloved 18' skiff of the future?

[Doug Lord 1,219]

I think that it is seriously flawed in that the entire concept is based upon the idea that it'll be flying constantly, which we all know isn't going to happen.

=======================

For you to say that is absolute proof that what I said in my previous post is 100% accurate. You have the incredible nuttiness to repeat something that you dredged up out of the cavern of your mind because it sure DOES NOT reflect what Thomas said. What I don't get is why you would offer such an obviously uninformed opinion in the first place. All you have to do is read the Daily Sail article and you would realize how silly your comment is. Its a shame when those guys have done so much work that you can't even take the time to read what they've said and instead choose to offer an opinion that is so removed from the facts as to be totally worthless. You have constantly personally attacked me using the same kind of thinking-now I understand that a lot better......

[Dagbar 2]

=======================

For you to say that is absolute proof that what I said in my previous post is 100% accurate. You have the incredible nuttiness to repeat something that you dredged up out of the cavern of your mind because it sure DOES NOT reflect what Thomas said. What I don't get is why you would offer such an obviously uninformed opinion in the first place. All you have to do is read the Daily Sail article and you would realize how silly your comment is. Its a shame when those guys have done so much work that you can't even take the time to read what they've said and instead choose to offer an opinion that is so removed from the facts as to be totally worthless. You have constantly personally attacked me using the same kind of thinking-now I understand that a lot better......

 

If the “Knockers” of this concept would only review a little history, they might just think before they open their mouths and stick their feet in!

There was a comparable “structure” made from pieces of wood, wire, and canvas that only “worked” in a very limited way (in actuality with much less success towards the ultimate goals that the concept eventually attained than this craft) and that “craft” was the product of the fertile imaginations of the Wright brothers on the sands of Kitty hawk. It was primarily a prototype that was probably (definitely) ridiculed by many of the time with similar utterings like, “just what good is this thing anyway”. Look where that small step of innovation has led us to today? I would think that it would be prudent to wait and watch to see where this and other experiments with foiling lead before digging a big verbal hole of denial only having to bury yourself in at a later date

[jfunk 4]

Dagbar

 

Foiling is not new technology, it has been in use for a long time. People aren't critical of this project, more expressing frustration at "I am the Lord" shouting down everyone and preventing constructive debate.

 

There is a lot of skill here and people can see the limitations and merely point them out to aid creating a solution.

 

Foiling has it's limitations, it's not the revolution "his arseclowness" would have you believe. It's an aside, but certainly an interesting one.

 

Apart from Moths, none of the foilers presented so far are going to be quick around a course and if they are only straight line vessels, then sailboards and kites are faster. If you want real speed, keep your eye on Wot Rocket, from the rumours I have heard from her trials, she is going to smash 50kn.

 

I can't imagine anyone would want the foilers to fail, every advance in this sport is cool, lets just keep a sense of perspective

[Diver Dan 0]

I think in a sea state is when a foiler has a real advantage.

 

 

Ummm Did you see the moth Worlds in Garda. On the windy Day I think every boat had multiple swims. A foiling 18 in those conditions would be unsailable. I like the fact that doug ignored my other post as he really has no idea what its like to sail these boats and just talks rubish.

[Sailingkid 3]

I cant see why they just didn't put foils on a newer 18, then just move the centreboard forward. Also are they ever gunna get that 3rd bloke on trap? Watching the vid it looks like they are trying to achive windward heel, but to keep the foils in the water he has to be in the middle. So why notg just sail it 2 up?

[k_b 0]

I cant see why they just didn't put foils on a newer 18, then just move the centreboard forward. Also are they ever gunna get that 3rd bloke on trap? Watching the vid it looks like they are trying to achive windward heel, but to keep the foils in the water he has to be in the middle. So why notg just sail it 2 up?

 

They probably need a bit more wind to get the third bloke out on the wire.

 

 

 

It would be nice if Jundt could come back here to DA and tell us a little about his new machine...

[bgulari 7]

Ummm Did you see the moth Worlds in Garda. On the windy Day I think every boat had multiple swims. A foiling 18 in those conditions would be unsailable. I like the fact that doug ignored my other post as he really has no idea what its like to sail these boats and just talks rubish.

 

 

Have you sailed a moth in a rough sea state versus a 14?

[AlStorer 4]

You guys are supposed to be Sailing Anarcists "Where the Status Quo Blows" Does this refer to the rock band or pushing the development of sailing. Maybe I do not understand this right, but I am supprised about the resistance to this concept, coming form various different quarters. What are you afraid of? Should this forum be "Where the Status Quo Rocks and we are quite happy about it so please lets keep it to 70s rock technologhy".

I've long wondered this about many vocal members here- not just in DA, throughout the forum.

 

I reckon it's a symptom of the majority US membership (it is after all an American owned and run site)- sailing in the US seems much less receptive to new things.

[Doug Lord 1,219]

Dagbar

 

Foiling is not new technology, it has been in use for a long time. People aren't critical of this project, more expressing frustration at "I am the Lord" shouting down everyone and preventing constructive debate.

-----------------------

Funk, you don't need to give dagbar lessons about foils-he knows twice what you ever will. Your post is in error -as usual: BI_FOILING has only been around since 1999-and that is not very long. It is a testament to Thomas and his team that they are pushing the envelope in what is,essentially, a brand new technology. More power to them!

[Essex 70]

We could have an interesting discussion here if you would just stay away with your sycophantic fawning and personal attacks. Would that be possible ?

[Ross 31]

sailing in the US seems much less receptive to new things.

 

 

ya think?

 

-----------------------

BI_FOILING

 

fuckin a am I getting tired of that term!

[AlStorer 4]

ya think?

fuckin a am I getting tired of that term!

Just a little! Not everyone on here, and not all Americans though, as hey, sweeping generalisations are generally rubbish.

 

Ahem.