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Gybing oversize poles


Bedford

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I was looking at some shots of boats with oversize poles where the foreguy/downhaul comes out of the bow just above the waterline. The way I see it, you'd have to detach the downhaul and run it ahead of the headstay during a gybe. Am I missing something? Do you hook up a temporary one? Anyone have experience with these?

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That would be the tackline, for flying A-sails off the pole. This is attached to the sail, and doesn't run through the beak of the pole (the guy does).

 

When flying A-sails, the downhaul is detached. When flying S-sails there is a downhaul that runs in the normal way, from a metre or so aft of the forestay to the end of the pole.

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think they're using the oversize pole to clear the headstay easier, and perhaps find it easier to trim in light air.

 

43577 has the best response on this thread though!

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Some boats with oversize poles ease the pole to the headstay and pin it off using both the afterguys through reaching struts. Perform the gybe, ease the leeward afterguy, detach the headstay, grind the pole back a bit and then reattach the headstay. In reality it only takes a couple of seconds to do and is quite common.

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That's not an A sail in the picture.

 

 

That's hardly an oversized pole. Most poles that are at least a meter longer than the forestay usually have some sort of bowsprit, through it's not required. When running, the tack gets eased as you pull the brace aft. When gybing, the brace gets eased and you fly the kite from the tackline. The pole either comes off the mast (most comon) or the headstay is detached to get it through the foretriangle. ONce done, follow the steps in reverse order. You can watch the pros do it

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If that's not an A-sail, then what's the sheet going around the luff of the sail?

 

Good catch. I looked again and It's probably an A sail. Still you'd have to gybe it. But I guess with the line on the tack that would be easy.

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to gybe, trip it off the guy, pull tack down, unclip pole from mast, make new guy, reset on mast, ease tack and square back. atleast thats how its done according to what i;'ve read here...

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to gybe, trip it off the guy, pull tack down, unclip pole from mast, make new guy, reset on mast, ease tack and square back. atleast thats how its done according to what i;'ve read here...

 

Mebbe you should stay with 109's..........if you do as you write you are going to create one big klusterfuck - and mebbe broach (if it's windy)

 

You have to pull the downfucker (tackline, snoutline) on first and then while grinding it down ease off on the brace (guy) slowly to let the kite transfer to flying off the downfucker.

 

Trip the brace (guy)

 

Then you either dip pole gybe the pole - or detach from mast

 

attach the braceon the new side

 

trim new brace and ease the downfucker to the desired tack height

 

The kite can be gybed as soon as the pole is close to the forestay while the brace is still attached or when the kite is flying only on the downfucker - you could even wait until you have gybed the pole for that matter.

 

If you do inside gybes you are best off gybing the kite while the pole is still on as it makes the kite fly further from the forestay and is making a bigger slot (between kite luff and forestay) to get the kite through.

 

Now go back to play on your daddy's sprit boat

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Mebbe you should stay with 109's..........if you do as you write you are going to create one big klusterfuck - and mebbe broach (if it's windy)

 

You have to pull the downfucker (tackline, snoutline) on first and then while grinding it down ease off on the brace (guy) slowly to let the kite transfer to flying off the downfucker.

 

Trip the brace (guy)

 

Then you either dip pole gybe the pole - or detach from mast

 

attach the braceon the new side

 

trim new brace and ease the downfucker to the desired tack height

 

The kite can be gybed as soon as the pole is close to the forestay while the brace is still attached or when the kite is flying only on the downfucker - you could even wait until you have gybed the pole for that matter.

 

If you do inside gybes you are best off gybing the kite while the pole is still on as it makes the kite fly further from the forestay and is making a bigger slot (between kite luff and forestay) to get the kite through.

 

Now go back to play on your daddy's sprit boat

 

 

Agree with everything you said.

 

 

 

 

Even if you were a little harsh on Mustang

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its alright, i;ve gotten used to his comments.....

 

But, Christian, im sorry if i never got the chance to sail on a larger keelboat with sym's and pole flown assys, but dont confuse that with my desire to do so. I'd love the chance to hop on a boat like that to do midbow or whatever and learn how to. What i said wasnt all that much different from what you said, i just dropped some details and said to trip the pole before bringing to the forestay. My take was that if you were running (or had just come down to one in preparation for the gybe) and the tack was more or less straight, tripping the pole right off wouldnt have any adverse affects. Obviously if you tripped it while still high, bad things would happen.

 

Now, if you know of a boat that would have me onboard to learn a thing or to, i'd be happy to join them.

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Key thing with the A-gybe is that the bow team should be able to sort out the pole before the trimmers have even come close to gybing the kite. We reckon the pole should be gybved within about five seconds, and as soon as that's done the pit can start the transfer to the pole again. Even with a jockey pole (mid bow takes this across the boat and as soon as the guy's in the jaws the transfer can start; tying it to shrouds, getting the mast end in and clipping on a halyard can all take place as they take up on the guy)

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Good discussion, but it doesn't change the fact that you young'ens are so quick to dismiss the picture as definitely an a-kite. The angle between the luff and the foot is wrong for that to be an A. It is a standard symmetric sail and the line you claim is the spin sheet is just the genoa sheets placed over the pole. All this new technology is interesting, but don't forget your past.

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its alright, i;ve gotten used to his comments.....

 

But, Christian, im sorry if i never got the chance to sail on a larger keelboat with sym's and pole flown assys, but dont confuse that with my desire to do so. I'd love the chance to hop on a boat like that to do midbow or whatever and learn how to. What i said wasnt all that much different from what you said, i just dropped some details and said to trip the pole before bringing to the forestay. My take was that if you were running (or had just come down to one in preparation for the gybe) and the tack was more or less straight, tripping the pole right off wouldnt have any adverse affects. Obviously if you tripped it while still high, bad things would happen.

 

Now, if you know of a boat that would have me onboard to learn a thing or to, i'd be happy to join them.

 

That's why you should mebbe hold on before giving advise on how to do things when you actually haven't even done it yourself. Reading on SA and the glossy magazines is not going to teach you how to do things to a degree where you try to teach others.

 

On bigger boats - leaving out the small details can get someone severely hurt and break big expensive things - that's why the details are very important. trying out your approach on a 60+ footer could easily be one of those 20 boat unit days and could get people hurt.

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Advice from Chernikeef....priceless...

 

 

i'm getting odd looks in the library quiet section for cracking up to that

 

sorry FM - no disrespect at all, just funny!

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42738 says its the jib sheet? I know I haven't done bow in a while, but we never put the jib sheet forward of the kite. And if its not an Asail, how come it has the little dick just above the tack?

Jib Sheets don't go there

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That's why you should mebbe hold on before giving advise on how to do things when you actually haven't even done it yourself. Reading on SA and the glossy magazines is not going to teach you how to do things to a degree where you try to teach others.

 

On bigger boats - leaving out the small details can get someone severely hurt and break big expensive things - that's why the details are very important. trying out your approach on a 60+ footer could easily be one of those 20 boat unit days and could get people hurt.

 

The fact that i havent done it is precisely why i added the fact that the information i posted was only derived from here and watching videos. Bedford wasnt asking for the exact instructions, he was asking how it gets gybed. And, more or less, it gets gybed by taking the pole off the guy and mast, switching it to the other side of the forestay, and hooking it back up. There are detailed threads on doing bow/gybing assy's from mast mounted poles that if someone was going to do for real, would do themselves the favor of reading them. Besides which, if someone hops onto a boat that uses a setup like that for the first time, and no one onboard tells them how, then maybe something deserves to go get broken... Unless they uptalk the game, then they deserve every ounce of shit they get... Anyway, i dont think someone gets signed onto being the main bowman on a 60'er that has never worked with an assy flown from a pole.

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QUOTE(Dark Horse @ May 1 2008, 02:36 AM)

Advice from Chernikeef....priceless...

 

 

 

i'm getting odd looks in the library quiet section for cracking up to that

 

sorry FM - no disrespect at all, just funny!

 

I'll survive. The question is what Dark Horse sails on... and do they know me? I'm getting worried now...

 

P.S. No matter what I sail on, I'm pretty sure I didn't say owt wrong, did I?

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Good discussion, but it doesn't change the fact that you young'ens are so quick to dismiss the picture as definitely an a-kite. The angle between the luff and the foot is wrong for that to be an A. It is a standard symmetric sail and the line you claim is the spin sheet is just the genoa sheets placed over the pole. All this new technology is interesting, but don't forget your past.

My oh my...."young'ens" ... hopefully that load of old cobblers doesn't tar all of us old'ens with your brush US42738.

Look again... of course it's an asymmetrical chute !! Just think about what you said.... jib sheet ?? And that opinion about the angle between luff and foot, they can come in all shapes and you can't see enough to form that opinion. Here's an asymmetrical with a tack/foot angle like a symmetrical.

post-5483-1209651989_thumb.jpg

With respect to the past, your memory must be failing or you.

1. As was so eloquently pointed out, there's a "donkey dick" just above the tack holding the chute's lazy sheet, set for an outside gybe.

2. If someone is going to run the jib sheets over the pole, they are never led round the front of the chute irrespective of what kind of chute. What would be the point....?? The reason they are led over the pole is the make sure you can hoist the jib and drop the pole without trapping the lazy jib sheet under the pole. What you're suggesting means that the lazy jib sheet is run around the outside of the forestay and outside the chute??? . :blink::blink: .. one hell of a fuster cluck about to happen. :lol:

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Good discussion, but it doesn't change the fact that you young'ens are so quick to dismiss the picture as definitely an a-kite. The angle between the luff and the foot is wrong for that to be an A. It is a standard symmetric sail and the line you claim is the spin sheet is just the genoa sheets placed over the pole. All this new technology is interesting, but don't forget your past.

 

My guess is some boat with a broken sprit trying for fly the a-kite with a pole they grabbed from the yard. And they put the downhaul on the only eye up front.

 

Gybing?? Look at the bow wave guys, they are hardly even moving... you have all kind of time to gybe however you wanted.

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My guess is some boat with a broken sprit trying for fly the a-kite with a pole they grabbed from the yard. And they put the downhaul on the only eye up front.

 

Gybing?? Look at the bow wave guys, they are hardly even moving... you have all kind of time to gybe however you wanted.

 

Traditional a-sail set up. Look at the tack line block on the nose

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Farr 40's now have over sized poles with Symmetrical Kites. As you can see in the picture the forguy is not attached to the end of the pole but just aft. You still dip gybe (see the 2nd picture of MM's gybe.)

post-5553-1209665482_thumb.jpg

post-5553-1209665525_thumb.jpg

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That's not an A sail in the picture.

 

 

Well that looks like Falcon a Tripp 50 in San Diego (I can tell by the spinn pole, sail color layout, and the graphic on the bow) If it is the Falcon the it has to be an A-sail. That boat doen't have any regular spinnakers, only A-sails.

post-5553-1209666407_thumb.jpg

post-5553-1209666756_thumb.jpg

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  • 5 months later...
That's not an A sail in the picture.

 

 

That's hardly an oversized pole. Most poles that are at least a meter longer than the forestay usually have some sort of bowsprit, through it's not required. When running, the tack gets eased as you pull the brace aft. When gybing, the brace gets eased and you fly the kite from the tackline. The pole either comes off the mast (most comon) or the headstay is detached to get it through the foretriangle. ONce done, follow the steps in reverse order. You can watch the pros do it

 

 

Tried to watch your video link but it is now has copyright protection by the RUNNERS CLUB?

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i do the bow on locomotion, an andrews 45 with a giant oversized pole. the pole is 25 ft long, with a 12 ft of forward overhang. thats a lot of overhang with no sprit. the foreguy as we call it (downfucker/tackline on boats where you attach it to the kite directly, not the pole), runs to the tip of the pole from a bobstay a few inches above the waterline, 4:1, and aft. it is clipped to the tip of the pole...not the kite. the guys (braces) are led backwards all the way aft, and pass through two holes in the tip of the pole. you cannot remove them. the shackles on afterguys usually have plastic pucks protecting the shackles so that they have a bearing surface against the pole. the shackles clip onto a pie (steel ring, that looks like a pie, or a pizza, or peace sign, that has 2 shackles that clip to the kites). the tip never gets removed, and always remains forward of the headstay.

 

to gybe, set up both reaching struts and let the pole forward to the headstay. you then pull both guys (braces) tight so that you center the pole and basically turn it into a giant sprit. make sure the lazy guy is tight otherwise the pole will fall to leeward after the gybe (=bad!!). inside gybes with the 1A, outside for all the rest.

 

gybe the boat, leave the pole attached to the rig always. lazy jib halyard put over the new leeward side of the pole as safety. then, use a boatbreaker/downfucker that allows the headstay to disconnect with a pin, release boatbreaker, flip headstay over the pole and square it back. reattach boat breaker and crank it on to reconnect the headstay.

sound complicated but pretty simple really......

 

reason to do it that way is that there is no sprit. pulling the tack of the kite aft 12 ft when you disconnect the pole makes the shape all wrong, hard to drive, a lot of motion in the tack and an unstable boat. if you can pull the tack straight down, the shape does not change too much and it makes the pole easier to remove from the afterguy.

 

on sleds or boats where there isnt very much aft tack movement in the kite, the pole tip usually has jaws that can open and close that clip onto the line of the afterguy. to gybe you pull the tackline on so the kite is flying from the tip of the sprit or the stem of the boat. you can then release the weather afterguy, unclip the pole, remove it from mast, move the tip aft inside the headstay, and clip it onto the lazy afterguy. push the pole back out, back on the mast, and release the tackline to pull the kite onto the new guy. all this can happen during the gybe during a buoys race (the gybe and the pole transfer). offshore you can take a bit more time while gybing short handed, take the pole off, stowe it, gybe, and reattach the pole after the gybe is finished.

 

thats was few little secrets....hope it helps.....

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detach the forestay and swing it right through

 

oh perfect...

the boys on one of the Z86s were told to stop doing this...

 

naughty chaps

 

instead three of them sprinted half way down the boat with it and right back again - awesome thing to see

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detach the forestay and swing it right through

 

oh perfect...

the boys on one of the Z86s were told to stop doing this...

 

naughty chaps

 

instead three of them sprinted half way down the boat with it and right back again - awesome thing to see

 

holy fark! I thought you were joking Jem!

 

jeebus - anybody get it on vid?

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detach the forestay and swing it right through

 

oh perfect...

the boys on one of the Z86s were told to stop doing this...

 

naughty chaps

 

instead three of them sprinted half way down the boat with it and right back again - awesome thing to see

 

holy fark! I thought you were joking Jem!

 

jeebus - anybody get it on vid?

Didn't the AC guys do this as well?

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detach the forestay and swing it right through

 

oh perfect...

the boys on one of the Z86s were told to stop doing this...

 

naughty chaps

 

instead three of them sprinted half way down the boat with it and right back again - awesome thing to see

 

holy fark! I thought you were joking Jem!

 

jeebus - anybody get it on vid?

I don't know if it was caught on video.

 

It was pyewacket I think [either them or morning glory] and maybe it was just chatting to the boys on the pub in Cork havign been racing against them, but they had been told by the owner to stop it. Fuck only knows how it worked - maybe they were just taking me for a ride...

 

D/k if the AC boats ever did it

 

J

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Farr 40's now have over sized poles with Symmetrical Kites. As you can see in the picture the forguy is not attached to the end of the pole but just aft. You still dip gybe (see the 2nd picture of MM's gybe.)

 

 

It is attached to the end of the pole. There is a a small strop and a piece of bungee holding the block back on the pole to keep the block from wrapping around the tip of the pole.

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It is attached to the end of the pole. There is a a small strop and a piece of bungee holding the block back on the pole to keep the block from wrapping around the tip of the pole.

 

good idea, gonna have to rig that up.

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