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We are all at the same point. Finishing and fitting keels & hardware and masts. I'll be picking up Stephen's rig on Monday also.

 

His boat looks great. I signed off all his papers the other week as his mentor for the project. Told him that he should post his build notes; they are very detailed and well written. They would make an excellent build guide.

 

ahh,,so it's helpful to actually build a boat in order to make a build guide?!?!? :o

One could say that.

 

We wrote a build guide that has evolved with each build, but it more like a series of steps in order so you don't forget anything and so you can pick up where the last guy left off without a lot of wasted time.

 

Stephen's build report that he compiled for his senior project during his build is excellent. Each step is detailed and explained clearly and simply.

 

I am sure that it will be on the North American Class site soon enough. www.i550NA.org

 

His build blog is there as well.

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Oh Pooh-bah, perhaps knowing they are as am I that i550 boats are very breaking easy to me. The keel is so small and light I can carry easily to the boss man but only receive a small roti it for.  

Sahib, I know not how to read or write but I do know how to break boats. I also a little know how to sail from those boats with the training wheels. I would be glad to come to the land of the Solomo

I am searching for a source of sustainably harvested plywood made to the BS 1088 specification. Also if anyone has experience with the bio-derived epoxy offerings, let me know your experience.  T

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That's a good resource as well, I'm certain. Congrats to Stephen!

S&T

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Nice piece, what does it do??

Same thing as these, I hope:

post-4941-008902000 1337102266_thumb.jpeg

post-4941-012765000 1337102267_thumb.jpg

post-4941-076489200 1337102268_thumb.jpg

 

 

Mine has a tiller out the back, to give some better leverage to jibe the ballasted keel.

 

 

(I've had these pics sitting in a folder for a while, but credits are something like: c maas, the swiss T750, and I don't know who took the B6 pic)

 

And there's no manual, but there is a step by step description over at i550class.org tongue.gif

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More fun parts, although not in anybody's build guide I'm afraid...

 

post-4941-043451700 1337100374_thumb.jpg

 

I saw that movie! 6 Degrees of Articulation, right? Stockard Channing and Donald Sutherland and a very young Will Smith?

 

Nice Piece of big honkin' chunk of jewelry ... so a piece... at least we know that you'll check to make certain someone has a legal hull # before giving away IP. Thanks to you, we just sold 459 all the way to Pareeee, France. WAHOO! THANKS!

 

I think that movie starred Carol Channing and Kevin Bacon ... but I will look that up on the interwebs.

S&T

 

P.S. Timbo, I think you mean May not Mar, but we would never pull a sneaky cheesy plug on someone else's thread. Hush, though, we won't tell a soul.

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Above said with tongue planted firmly in cheek ... so don't nobody take OFFense, please. Still recovering from the last HOOPLA go around.

We still love ya, Timbo.

Susan

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Sorry, I guess I have not re-freshed my sig line in a while. Asked an honest question, always interesting in seeing where peoples thought processes are...not trying to plug anything.

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Sorry, I guess I have not re-freshed my sig line in a while. Asked an honest question, always interesting in seeing where peoples thought processes are...not trying to plug anything.

 

No need to explain, Timbo, you are always welcome here ... My Tim tried some creative cross-thread promotion last week, which was deemed to be spamming by a Certain Clean Individual.

I told him not to do it ... but does he ever listen to me? That's OK, I never listen to him. That's our secret to almost 30 years of wedded bliss.

God, we're gettin' old.

Susan

 

 

 

 

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... always interesting in seeing where peoples thought processes are...

 

Dunno if this link will work, but here's the intended result, dragging the chine a little less sideways:

http://i550class.org/forums/download/file.php?id=198&mode=view

Won't work for me... it does not know I was a "Charter" member of the i550.. B)

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... always interesting in seeing where peoples thought processes are...

 

Dunno if this link will work, but here's the intended result, dragging the chine a little less sideways:

http://i550class.org...d=198&mode=view

Won't work for me... it does not know I was a "Charter" member of the i550.. B)

Trying to be lazy and do this from a phone. Will post the original pic in a minute...

 

...carries beer downstairs...

 

...ah, here it is:

 

post-4941-087065900 1337120895_thumb.jpg

 

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... at least we know that you'll check to make certain someone has a legal hull # before giving away IP.

always have, even when we've disagreed about "other issues"!

;-)

 

 

I have always respected a well presented or defended "other issue". Maybe it will fade away.

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Wow.... those that know be will be shocked that I am at a loss for words. :P

 

... always interesting in seeing where peoples thought processes are...

 

Dunno if this link will work, but here's the intended result, dragging the chine a little less sideways:

http://i550class.org...d=198&mode=view

Won't work for me... it does not know I was a "Charter" member of the i550.. B)

Trying to be lazy and do this from a phone. Will post the original pic in a minute...

 

...carries beer downstairs...

 

...ah, here it is:

 

post-4941-087065900 1337120895_thumb.jpg

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Sorry, I guess I have not re-freshed my sig line in a while. Asked an honest question, always interesting in seeing where peoples thought processes are...not trying to plug anything.

 

No need to explain, Timbo, you are always welcome here ... My Tim tried some creative cross-thread promotion last week, which was deemed to be spamming by a Certain Clean Individual.

I told him not to do it ... but does he ever listen to me? That's OK, I never listen to him. That's our secret to almost 30 years of wedded bliss.

God, we're gettin' old.

Susan

 

 

 

 

 

SPAM??? Moi??? This is an outrage!

TIMBER (the real one)

 

 

 

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... always interesting in seeing where peoples thought processes are...

 

Dunno if this link will work, but here's the intended result, dragging the chine a little less sideways:

http://i550class.org/forums/download/file.php?id=198&mode=view

Won't work for me... it does not know I was a "Charter" member of the i550.. B)

 

You are certainly encouraged to register. We have much, much stronger mods on the class site...so far it is a very friendly place to conduct bidniz.

Some of the Vipe's technology is filtering down to our little plywood monster!

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One of my pet peeves with forums is when an announcement of some type is hinted at and it never happens. As I was recently involved with a potential announcement and it has indeed never happened, I thought I would do something a bit different and make an anti- announcement.

 

I am one of the caretakers of a 25 year old non-profit here in Florida. We primarily provide housing and other services to men in alcohol and drug abuse recovery. One way we do this is through a program that provides temporary jobs to these men and helps show them that they can utilize their skills in ways they may not normally think of or initially be comfortable with.

 

As we are already building one i550, we were able to secure funding to build a second one. And do so in a way that set us up to do production like plywood and composite builds. Sort of old school production boat building. Conversations with Watershed went well. A new name for this arm of the non-profit was obtained, funding and space was put into place and then a few issues cropped up. Health and other personal issues are preventing certain key personnel from being able to commit the time and energy it would take to insure the idea was carried to a successful and high quality conclusion.

 

So, no real announcement here, the idea has been unfortunately shelved indefinitely.

 

I would still be interested though to see what others thought about this. The i550 that was going to be offered was a flush (rounded) deck, large cockpit version. The base boat was to have a Dwyer aluminum mast, dacron sails, carbon pole, single inboard cassette style rudder, 2 part paint and a custom trailer. Price was set at $18,500.00 FOB our production facility. Options like foam core in lieu of plywood, carbon fiber rig and higher tech options for the sails were also going to be offered. Of course, those options would end up with a price a lot closer to the initial offering price of the VX One. And even then, the pricing was as low as it was only because of certain benefits we are able to take advantage of as a non-profit.

 

The question is, would anyone have been interested at that pricing? Would we have had to enjoy that hull ourselves (we were OK with that possibility) or were we going to have to start producing more?

 

Perhaps someone else out there is thinking about doing something similar and the information will help with that decision.

 

If you want to know more or make comments and would rather not make them on a public forum, you can PM me on this forum or e-mail at sbwjaxfl@comcast.net

 

Joe

Springfield Boat Works

Barbara & Grace, Inc.

 

And yes, had this been the planned announcement, I would have bought add space long before. Sailing Anarchy is the only way to sell boats in my humble opinion!

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Some of the Vipe's technology is filtering down to our little plywood monster!

 

I think you i550 Rocket Scientist's have far exceeded the Vipe technology.. We have 3 sheets, 3 strings and 1 halyard to play with. :ph34r:

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Some of the Vipe's technology is filtering down to our little plywood monster!

 

I think you i550 Rocket Scientist's have far exceeded the Vipe technology.. We have 3 sheets, 3 strings and 1 halyard to play with. :ph34r:

 

Speaking for myself, I'm using the boat as an excuse to try a lot of goofball ideas because I enjoy that side of things. I definitely don't expect them all to work out, but it would be neat if a couple did...

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And a shout out to the PDX group... We are going to be traveling up to your region for WIRW. Do you expect to have some boxes up there?

WIRW is not likely in the cards this year. But we will be at CGOD.

 

I know you are going to be at CGOD too, right?

 

The offer still stands for our SoCal sporties that do WIRW to stash some boats & trucks in PDX between the events and fly home. Just let us know and we'll make it happen.

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  • 2 weeks later...

Hull# updates: as soon as we receive permission to give out names & emails, will add these to the google map on our page

 

 

455. Loftus, New South Wales 2232, Australia

 

456. Sparks, Nevada

 

457. Manawatu , 4475 New Zealand

 

458. Punt Arenas00, Chile

 

459. La Garenne Colombe, France

 

460. Budapest, H1194, Hungary

 

461. Požega, Croatia

 

462. Buenos Aires, Argentina

 

463. Peter Tatarinov, of Boat-Kits.Ru of, Irtusk, Russia, finalizing agreement to be Watershed's kit cutter & boatbuilderfor Russia, Belarus and theUkraine.

 

CHEERS!

 

 

 

Tim Reiter & Susan James

 

Watershed Sailboats

 

http://www.i550sportboat.com/

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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hay how many plans are in nz now?and how much nz are the plans?

 

There are two places to look and you can get to them from the WaterShed site.

 

Listing of plan owners:

http://www.i550sportboat.com/?page_id=23

 

The i550 world map. I believe it was Jeff (Alchemy I550 #129) that made the map.

https://maps.google.com/maps/ms?ie=UTF8&hl=en&msa=0&msid=115187542624947231352.00045d25d24fb6247ff24&ll=38.959409,-94.746094&spn=31.831031,78.662109&source=embed

 

Only one plan set is list in New Zealand to Grant (Auckland, i550-404).

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Jeff made the map a few years back & then turned it over to me, which I need to update. It is the same map that appeared on i550.Org, except it has a list of owners or boat names to the side. The NZ listing above has not yet been updated to the map as I've had some sort of flu-crud for a while now, but hope to get going soon. If you go to our page, (thank you Dawg House for putting up a link) you can go to the map page, & see the listings. Now Tim will answer the other NZ question.

Susan

 

Tried the 2nd link posted above. It also comes from our map, but if you want to go to our site, you can see the current specials, plus the map listing is broken down below by countries & U.S. states.

Also please let me know if your location has changed & if your map pin needs updated in color.

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hay how many plans are in nz now?and how much nz are the plans?

 

 

There is currently two in NZ.

 

Check the map at i550sportboat.com

 

We have an "instant gratification special" currently at NZ$132.00 ($100 USD).

One hull shape. Six deck configurations. About 100 pages in total.

And enough enthusiastic builders to give insight into all sorts of ways to do things. An active site is i550class.org for current thinking and i550na.org is coming on with their Portland, Oregon fleet.

We think that there are not more in NZ is that the i550 was designed in Amurica by a Yank and there is a certain amount of pride associated with and a huge amount of skill amongst Kiwis.

For a simple boat the i550 sets the standard.

T

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Agree. Not the most persuasive marketing.

 

 

In this case, Tim meant simple as an "elegant, " simpler and less costly solution for club boats. etc. vs. VX etc. (Even though we know you want one Eric).

Now, can we play nice? Lots easier to grow a fleet that way ...

S

 

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The lucky hull #464 goes to Norfolk, CT.

Cheers!

S&T

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1335759429[/url]' post='3692596']
1334417526[/url]' post='3672507']
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I was pretty sure there was one out there that went to frame 89....

 

;-)

 

 

I know, if anyone could, you can identify the handy work of the builder.

And he was an early first adopter of the flush deck i550.

 

Jon

i550-36

Lake Murray, SC

 

Besides hull #36 that I got from Chris, Leeholl's hull #350 is also being built with a cockpit extending to frame 89. http://i550na.org/leeholl/blog

 

I extended the cockpit to frame 89 (or actually stopped the cabin at frame 89 ;-) so I can step my rotating carbon mast in the cockpit. Time will tell if the decision to support a rotating mast, and the room to move weight forward will have any real benefit. My motivation in everything I have done with my build is to explore the limits of the design in the spirit of driving innovation. Hopefully some of what I have tried will add competitive value ;-)

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Well done Stephen! A great accomplishment not many others have done. The paint job looks awesome.

Jray;

 

Are you going to make it over here for some solid OD racing in North America's best sailing venue?

 

CGOD is 8/4 & 8/5

 

Rumor that a certain Canadian will be there and Stephen and 4 more PDX boats will be there.

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Yes, Congrats again to Stephen!

 

Please check out our current specials, we are still running our instant gratification and other great offers.

 

WARNING! Beware of unauthorized parties & individuals without proof of right to manufacture, who attempt to buy/sell your hull license. All manufacturers need to have a signed contract with Watershed if they build and sell more than one i550 hull per year. Please check with us first to see if your hull license will be honored.

 

Tim Reiter & Susan James

 

Watershed Sailboats

 

http://www.i550sportboat.com/

 

i550Watershed@yahoo.com

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Well done Stephen! A great accomplishment not many others have done. The paint job looks awesome.

Jray;

 

Are you going to make it over here for some solid OD racing in North America's best sailing venue?

 

CGOD is 8/4 & 8/5

 

Rumor that a certain Canadian will be there and Stephen and 4 more PDX boats will be there.

 

...hmm,,that canadian's on track t'make it,,,wondering if there's anyone into joining me on the double-dammed-,,(bring yer own helmet) B)

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Well done Stephen! A great accomplishment not many others have done. The paint job looks awesome.

Jray;

 

Are you going to make it over here for some solid OD racing in North America's best sailing venue?

 

CGOD is 8/4 & 8/5

 

Rumor that a certain Canadian will be there and Stephen and 4 more PDX boats will be there.

 

...hmm,,that canadian's on track t'make it,,,wondering if there's anyone into joining me on the double-dammed-,,(bring yer own helmet) B)

No need for a helmet!

 

Just leave your brain at home!

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Well done Stephen! A great accomplishment not many others have done. The paint job looks awesome.

Jray;

 

Are you going to make it over here for some solid OD racing in North America's best sailing venue?

 

CGOD is 8/4 & 8/5

 

Rumor that a certain Canadian will be there and Stephen and 4 more PDX boats will be there.

 

 

Regretfully I will be gone on shop business that weekend. Going to miss the Montana Cup also. This making a living stuff is cutting into my racing schedule.

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There has been a development in the i550 world that it seems no one wants to talk about. The new Open 550 class was announced in a small way a few days ago and nothing has found it's way to any of the forums. I think this is a mistake. I understand that many wish to avoid any type of “dust up” like we have seen previously, but in this case, I think the people behind this new class need and deserve some input. Through that input, we might be able to guide them into forming a class that will ultimately benefit all who are interested in the i550.

 

The link is here: Open 550

 

As you can see, it is a pretty open format class. A bit closer to a true open or box rule boat perhaps than many will want though. In my opinion, and they are only my opinions, here are the pros and cons of what has been presented so far.

 

The pros:

 

This rule set seems like the rule set we needed to have for the old “International Class” days. We would probably only have the one class if this rule set had been the one presented. It insures every i550 built in good faith has a place to sail and race. Let's face facts here. Even the most “traditional” i550 guys have modified the design and so have pushed the limits of the plan sets in the name of pushing the performance envelope. This rule set simply acknowledges the fact that this is not a true one design in any way.

 

It also appears that this group has already planned several regattas and hopefully will continue to promote the racing of the i550. Other than a few local regattas up in the PNW, the other two classes have not done that yet.

 

The Cons:

 

While I see a plus on the concept of giving away for free unwanted plan sets/ hull licenses, the “unsold” ones bothers me. The former promotes the class and helps everyone and hurts no one as the unwanted plan sets hopefully goes to someone who will build the boat. The unsold comments seems like it is circumventing the current copyright holder and that strikes me as a bad message to be sending out there.

 

The other con is the idea that you can design your own class boat from scratch. I think this will scare off many current i550 builders and actually helps promote the other two classes. In my opinion, it is an unnecessary issue that complicates things for no good reason. There is plenty of leeway in the plan sets as currently offered and so lots of room for those self made improvements while keeping all the open 550 boats based on the current i550. It also gives a broader base from which to pull prospective members not only today but in the future.

 

So, in my opinion, with a few minor changes, the Open 550 class could be a great place to race your i550.

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Joe,

 

Some good points. We'll give them a thorough "look see," & have some comments to make later ... you are always an independent thinker.

 

But when someone sells us something with very clear conditions & then tries to steal it back, then rewrites history to his own benefit, on the back of our hard, 4+years of work, you can understand that we're not exactly happy about it. The person who has done this offered us a chance to take this new class, which would have fractured the i550 world even further, so we said no.

 

Did you notice we're on page 66 on 6/6? And our area's major fire has blown up again, just when they sent all the copters away right before a red flag warning. Now they're callin' in the Wyoming (the best) hotshots. Seems like a good metaphor. And I am proud to be from WY.

 

Now all we need is the third 6, and here we go again, but we will not go down in a ball of flames. As I said before, we will sell the whole shootin' match to T-Ford for a dollar (he has negotiated it down to "fifty sense,") before we let our IP get stolen & worked around once more by someone ... well we won't say … But will say, " Fool us once ... shame on you, fool us 27 times, hey, we may be nice but we are not dumb, either. This is a matter of integrity and character, and while we are human, we will keep our business going or die trying. This individual has had a track record of violating his agreements and has been always short when it comes to following through, in our experience.

 

Now, let the shootin' match begin!

 

S&T

 

P.S. Matt Broughton of i550.org and now the "Zero550" site, who has helped us greatly in the past & who we still very much appreciate, is also our webmaster and hosts our site. We believe Matt is a man of character and integrity. We have considered him a friend. Hope we are still correct, as we believe he will not take down our site. Let's agree to disagree.

 

 

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Sorry, count me out. I just signed an agreement to build aluminum quadramarans in some forlorn island nation where the weekly wage is less than what it takes to buy a medium OrangeMochaCappachino in Seattle. Designed the boat myself (but "borrowed" heavily from David Vann's awesome ideas).

 

The marine marketplace is in an upward trajectory toward whopper profit margins, and I want to surf that curl into filthy riches. You guys have can have your petty squabbles over which is better, okoume or meranti...I'm on to better things.

 

ta-ta.

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Just so I'm clear on this the I550 and the Open550 is the same boat but the Open550 is a set of plans which have been recovered from non builders and resold to people who want to build a boat? So in effect the Open550 is an attempt to get more I550 boats built.

 

Is that correct?

 

Nothing will end the I550 interest faster than infighting over who gets to charge money for a set of plans. The concept of building from plans from the very beginning be it planes - boats - houses etc - is that one can build a good design without it costing them a pile of cash - ie they can control their costs based on how crazy they want to get with the build effort.

 

What do the official I550 plans cost?

 

Just a thought here you can't create a low cost build from plans boat and expect people to be interested in keeping costs low even if that includes paying as little as possible for said plans. LOL Just pointing out the obvious

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This is not a petty squabble. This is our Job, and our way of living. Just like anyone else's job that pays the bills. When that gets threatened, people tend to worry & get pissed off when their job gets "out sourced," especially by someone who has no right to do so, Hope you just had tongue in cheek, Dave.

We were just kidding. We will not sell our business, or let someone take it away.

 

T&S

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This is not a petty squabble. This is our Job, and our way of living. Just like anyone else's job that pays the bills. When that gets threatened, people tend to worry & get pissed off when their job gets "out sourced," especially by someone who has no right to do so, Hope you just had tongue in cheek, Dave.

We were just kidding. We will not sell our business, or let someone take it away.

 

T&S

 

You guys need to make this story very clear! Given I have been interested in the I550 idea for some time and trying to get my builder ie Father inlaw set up and into the idea of doing a project like this. I'm not alone there are a few other folks I know that find the I550 idea pretty refreshing and want to see where this class goes.

The way I see it any confusing news about designs and who sells what plans for what money etc etc starts to put nails in the coffin before the class even starts to gain momentum.

 

So I highly suggest you guys get the story strait and fast!

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This is not a petty squabble. This is our Job, and our way of living. Just like anyone else's job that pays the bills. When that gets threatened, people tend to worry & get pissed off when their job gets "out sourced," especially by someone who has no right to do so, Hope you just had tongue in cheek, Dave.

We were just kidding. We will not sell our business, or let someone take it away.

 

T&S

 

Firmly implanted in cheek. As discussed recently with Herr Reiter, I think Watershed has every right to aggressively (and I do mean aggressively) protect their IP and their business interests.

 

Just wanted to quell any suggestion that I look at this project with any sort of business interest in mind.

 

By "petty squabbles" I meant okoume vs meranti, and nothing else.

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I disagree. I think Watershed has been pretty straightforward with their business. They have been royally messed with by some individual(s) who, for some reason, take delight in causing a problem. Make that multiple problems. While I may not have agreed with every business decision they've made, I respect the fact that it is THEIR business. And in every single dealing with Wateshed I've ever had, they've been 100% honest. These are honest folks.

 

I may have written the above (about the aluminum quadramarans) in jest, but, seriously, I am done with the drama. I'm going to finish my boat and sail it and have fun. People might want to come and race on the Chesapeake! Until then, have fun, build your boats and as difficult as it may be, try to be friendly?

 

Maybe?

 

cheers

tf

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Everybody.

The story was posted on i550.org, but the last complete version got taken down (as we knew it would), so go to i550class.org (where we knew it would not be taken down and where the best, most informative and supportive forums are) and look for a post under "General Chatter," called "Just posted on i550.Org," from a couple of weeks back.

 

Some history remains on i550.org, but has been sorta "sanitized," and is harder to find. The story has evolved (not changed) as new, aggressive &/or obnoxious individuals have joined the ranks.

 

And Eric, the hull shape and tolerances have remained stable since boat 1.

 

As a good friend said recenlty "Anytime you get more than 2 people involved there is going to be conflict." Now this friend is a very smart business man, who made his cash in the dot com bubble and then was smart enough to get out. What the i550 crowd includes now is literally thousands, with many of the main players being those guys who are the ones who stand and yells at the back of the boat without offering any positive leadership.

 

It's like herding rabid cats sometimes, but it's worth it as most of the kitties are sweet and purring and just want to build their boat in peace & then go have some fun. Eric, as usual, your gracious support is whelming (I always did wonder why people are either underwhelmed or overwhelmed but never "whelmed." But I digress). Maybe we'll write a book someday, but for right now we're a small Mom & Pop, and the take away here is that we are succeeding. Just go look at the map on our site & see how international the i550 has become over a short period of time.

 

Need to update the map. Was going to do so today, but we're always putting out fires started by others.

 

BTW, we have a instant gratification special on right now. PDF plans for a $100 bucks, and you can have them today if you pay by paypal. You get 90 pages+ of very specific hull drawings and directions, and all six deck versions. i550class.org is great source of building info, or you can always call (who else does that for $100? Help for maybe years, depending how much time & experience you have to build your boat).

 

Now someone else has probably replied while we are writing this ...

 

 

Cheers (we think)!

 

Tim Reiter & Susan James

 

Watershed Sailboats

 

http://www.i550sportboat.com/

 

i550Watershed@yahoo.com

 

 

Thanks T-Ford. We wrote this before we read yours. Wish we could be done with the drama, too, but someday we can be.

 

 

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Waffle, waffle, waffle, who doesn't like waffles?

 

You very vocally support one direction for growth when you are getting something for nothing, then as soon as the wind changes direction you do so as well, only to kiss and make up and tell outright lies and head off in yet another direction. It is all very entertaining from the sidelines. Looks like Open550 has something positive to offer now for everyone.

 

And the most comprehensive build blogs and details from start to finish on boats that are complete and that were the genesis of the current "plans" are at www.i550NA.org

 

the hull shape and tolerances have remained stable since boat 1.

Uhhh, not exactly true and you know it.

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So, let us get this straight... Just like you're expressing your desire to jump ship on your i550s to VX, are you now going to jump ship from your own creation, NA.org, an i550 class we have supported (even though we have had many problems with you individually)? You are waffling, again.

Are you going to give up ISAF status and all the work you've done to create it and desert your class members? Please let us know as we were going to post up the 3 classes we support today: (in order of the forming process as no on has had an AGM, elected officers etc., to our knowledge):

NA.org

i550class.org

i550 Australia

 

And, T-Ford. We don't agree with every business decision we've ever made, either. You can try to make the right call at the time, but it doesn't always work out the way you think it will ... but we do try to learn from the mistakes.

 

Back to Gladiator: Although we have not enjoyed your aggressive personality, your class has brought a lot to the party.

The hull shape has remained stable, within the original tolerances, until the "Zeroi550," parasite which violates the written agreement signed by the designer, who now wants to take back what he sold fair and square to us in Jan., 2008

Re: The hull tolerances, some have loosened them to the original limits. And some have tightened the tolerances within the original limits.

Only deck, cockpit, blades and sail area, hardware etc. have remained open to interpretation, just as in the original.

 

OK. We have real work to do. Just one (hopefully last item): Not everything you read in the newspaper is true ...

T&S

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OK so as an outsider who like the I550 idea is it fair to assume that TG is just one of those people who cause issues for a class and should otherwise be ignored? All of this seems quite confusing. HA HA

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Ahh, grasshopper, it is seemingly complex but really simple.

 

If you care to converse and receive insight you can call me, 970-507-0428.

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Oh Tim, there you go again with your trademark distorting of the facts.

 

So let's set the record straight. Do I like the VX? Yes! Have I ever said that I was "jumping ship" to get one? No. If the VX was around 2+ years ago we wouldn't be having this discussion though.

At this point we are pot committed to borrow a poker term; we have 4 boats built, a 5th started, rigs and foils and parts for all 5 ready to go. We have recruited two builds, one done, one close, to our original 5 and we have persuaded another 3 locally to buy plans and are pushing for them to start builds. We even persuaded and influenced a purchase of an i550 to add to the NW fleet. We continue to build interest and momentum contrary to your efforts to derail or malign me personally or the group.

We have had the PDX i550 (#1 & #2) in the Portland boat show and our group has gotten a significant amount of press for the i550 both in print and on the web. We have held demo day sails on the boat and we have taken several other plan holders from around the country sailing on the i550. We have invested in the production of parts to help other builders complete their boats, poured bulbs with builders and supplied much assistance to other builds.

We organized, incorporated the organization and became recognized by US Sailing. Created a website and still managed to build 4 boats in 2 years. Something that neither Watershed nor any other group has taken the time, money or energy to do.

So don't try to spin the facts to suit your distorted perception of reality.

The fact is you had ample opportunity to control, lead and shape the direction of the i550, but choose instead to stand by and watch others do the work for you, then complain when you don't get what you want.

We have a local fleet that will keep us busy and entertained having fun and racing our boats. We hope to see a greater presence of the i550 regionally, nationally, globally, but without a spark plug that is willing to give hours of their time to make it happen, I'm not sure if there will ever be critical mass.

A fair number of plans have been sold. A small percentage are actually being built. A far smaller percentage will actually be sailing OD in regattas.

I like what i see with the Open550. Maybe that is the spark plug.

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I am new to this argument but have thought the i550 is a great concept and has a lot of potential. I guess where you loose me is it sounds like you all want growth for the i550 and the concept of the Open 550 does not take anything away from that. To me at least it is a little bit like a old man's version of the international 14, lots of modifications, theories and growth.

Not trying to start another fight but it seems like you goals are not all that divergent.

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Oh Tim, there you go again with your trademark distorting of the facts.

 

So let's set the record straight. Do I like the VX? Yes! Have I ever said that I was "jumping ship" to get one? No. If the VX was around 2+ years ago we wouldn't be having this discussion though.

At this point we are pot committed to borrow a poker term; we have 4 boats built, a 5th started, rigs and foils and parts for all 5 ready to go. We have recruited two builds, one done, one close, to our original 5 and we have persuaded another 3 locally to buy plans and are pushing for them to start builds. We even persuaded and influenced a purchase of an i550 to add to the NW fleet. We continue to build interest and momentum contrary to your efforts to derail or malign me personally or the group.

We have had the PDX i550 (#1 & #2) in the Portland boat show and our group has gotten a significant amount of press for the i550 both in print and on the web. We have held demo day sails on the boat and we have taken several other plan holders from around the country sailing on the i550. We have invested in the production of parts to help other builders complete their boats, poured bulbs with builders and supplied much assistance to other builds.

We organized, incorporated the organization and became recognized by US Sailing. Created a website and still managed to build 4 boats in 2 years. Something that neither Watershed nor any other group has taken the time, money or energy to do.

So don't try to spin the facts to suit your distorted perception of reality.

The fact is you had ample opportunity to control, lead and shape the direction of the i550, but choose instead to stand by and watch others do the work for you, then complain when you don't get what you want.

We have a local fleet that will keep us busy and entertained having fun and racing our boats. We hope to see a greater presence of the i550 regionally, nationally, globally, but without a spark plug that is willing to give hours of their time to make it happen, I'm not sure if there will ever be critical mass.

A fair number of plans have been sold. A small percentage are actually being built. A far smaller percentage will actually be sailing OD in regattas.

I like what i see with the Open550. Maybe that is the spark plug.

 

 

Eric,

Good Lord. What an ego! We have spent every day for the last 4 years promoting the i550. How do you think you found out about it?

 

We are the legal owners of the design, and no amount of spin will change that ... we do not want to lead a class. We learned our lesson after we tried that the first time. Remember when you sweet talked us into accepting your class? We told you then who we were, and the resources we had available. We were upfront from the Day 1 that we had "heart," but little investment cash. That we were boot-strappin' this operation. And you said not to worry about it, because you had the resources to take the i550 to the moon? Little did we know how really obnoxious you would turn out to be. Even the Ultimate 20 guy picked up on that right away. Remember when you posted up that really cool slide show? I'm sure you spent a lot of time on it, but only one individual posted up a half-hearted positive comment. And that took days, even though it was posted here and on Dotorg. And we've heard through the grapevine from your own members that you've had trouble getting folks to show up to work because of your personality.

 

Every free set of pirated plans given away takes value away from your legal hull licenses and the boats you have built. And everyone else's purchases and work as well.

There are legal courts, and there a courts of opinion. We think we would prevail in both, but will "court" the many good folks out there on the net.

 

And because we chose to help my parents in a time of real need, and lost our hull and many tools in a shop that flooded in an area of 10-year drought in California, and we could literally not leave the house, because my parents could not be left alone, we took a big hit. Shit happens. But you're the guy who callously called out a guy who has cancer for not completing his boat yet for Cripe's sake. So nothing you do surprises us anymore.

 

And again, not everything written in newspaper is true. Do you really want to open that can of worms?????? We have the paperwork to prove it.

 

Below is the fearless leader of the alleged "Zero" Class, and the designer who is breaking his written agreement with us on multiple levels. I copied it off of i550.org a long time ago, His ego is maybe even larger than yours. Both of you, rate (IMHO) very low on the "Humanity and Compassion" Scale. So step up and step out of NA & become one of the zeroes.

Nuf said.

Tim

 

From i550.org a long time back:

Re:Paninaro 2 Years, 5 Months ago:

yep, you've pretty much defined what Paninaro is...

an 80's sub culture more into themselves than the society they live in....

more into what they have and who they are and how they look... than anything else.

who cares about politics ?

-Christopher

 

USA, Paninaro, AKA now Elroy

Re:Paninaro 2 Years, 5 Months ago

 

Someone wise replied "Crap, another excellent boat name appears, "Vapid Hedonism."

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I have my popcorn out and I'm enjoying the show. Seriously guys, don't publicize your IP squabbles on public forums. Use direct email to license holders.

 

Fighting on the internet is like dancing with your sister. It seems like fun at the time but you know its not going to go anywhere.

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I guess I got the reaction I expected but hoped not to get from my earlier post. I had hoped for an agreement that the idea is good but some of the statements and polices seem a bit off base. As everyone can see on the Open550 blog, the original June 1st post/ announcement is fine, except for the design your own and that is more of a personal thing to me than anything. It is the June 4th post that seems to be at issue with some. I had hoped that by posting this and getting some feedback that the organizers of the new class would listen and change their stance on a few things. I had hoped this for basically selfish reasons.

 

The i550class is too restrictive and several things in their rules were designed specifically to eliminate certain boats, mine included. Not what I think the i550 should be about. The NA (PDX guys) rules are much, much better, but still do a few things oddly, in my opinion, but still that is the class I joined. However, it is concentrated in the Pacific Northwest and will be for many years to come. A couple of us talked about a SE division, but frankly, with the work required to do it, we may as well start our own class. So, it was with interest that I read about the Open 550 class.

 

While Timber has made it seem as if he thinks giving away unwanted plan sets is wrong, the honest truth is, once it is sold, that hull licence is out of his control. It can be built by anyone (pro or amateur), bought and sold (or given for free) and it does not effect his business nor does it cross any legal line. That part is fine. In fact it promotes the class as it takes a hull number that would other wise never be built and puts it into the hands of a serious (hopefully) builder. That adds to the i550 cred and promotes more sales which is a net positive for everyone. Anyone who reads the Open550 blog and wants a free plan set can contact the Open550 class and be total legal, as long as the hull number they get was originally legitimately sold by the design holder. (Though, I suspect that they will be the older plan set packages and so purchasing an upgrade would be really worthwhile) It is the "unsold" hull numbers that both me. Enough so that I will not join nor support this class if that is carried through with. Even though it is perhaps the best one offered for the East Coast at the present time.

 

And a quick note about Matt's new .org site. It rotates information on the front page as pulled from the various blogs registered on the site. Timber, I suggest you get in the fun by making your own blog. I'm sure many out here would like to see pics of you making that next set of Tyveks or the next kit. An insiders view of Watershed, if you will.

 

By the way, we have gathered together the appropriate lightening gear and are patiently awaiting the proper lightening storm so we can launch Frankenstein. i550class members, get your pitch forks and torches to the ready! :blink:

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We've fought almost all our big battles in the open, here on SA & other forums. And we are still standing & are the legal owners of the i550 design. If you think personal emails work, you don't know how completely unreasonable these few guys are ... we tried the personal emails many times. You would find them even more entertaining.

The i550 went viral because of open forums. And we will fight in the open, because that is the best weapon we have at our disposal right now. The truth will set us FREE.

Susan

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I see it as a contest of ideas- is there a market for home built disposable development boats? One class (now two, if we give Chris' announcement any more weight than meaningless electrons on the screen) wants to see folks try alternate hull shapes in the box rule style, so that the early builders that built "to the plans" are likely sitting on obsolete hulls. This idea was rejected by a vote of the plan holders, but has been kept alive by the PDX crowd.

 

The other class is pretty open (so far!) to tweaks to just about anything EXCEPT the hull. That's the bright line- preserving the intrinsic value of the hulls by making sure that they are all lots closer to the same shape.

 

We spend several hundred hours hand building these boats- nobody wants to go through that and find out that their time was wasted on a previous-generation dog. Or go through it again every few years to keep up to date. If the votes were wrong, if folks DO want to try alternate hull shapes and make the hulls a part of the development game, then Eric and Chris are on the right track and they'll have a cool little grand prix two-chine boat that still rates 150-ish.

 

I know I won't build another boat to go play with them.

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Chad,

Couldn't have said it better. You guys are a Class with real class, along with the Australians.

Tim

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I see it as a contest of ideas- is there a market for home built disposable development boats? One class (now two, if we give Chris' announcement any more weight than meaningless electrons on the screen) wants to see folks try alternate hull shapes in the box rule style, so that the early builders that built "to the plans" are likely sitting on obsolete hulls. This idea was rejected by a vote of the plan holders, but has been kept alive by the PDX crowd.

 

The other class is pretty open (so far!) to tweaks to just about anything EXCEPT the hull. That's the bright line- preserving the intrinsic value of the hulls by making sure that they are all lots closer to the same shape.

 

We spend several hundred hours hand building these boats- nobody wants to go through that and find out that their time was wasted on a previous-generation dog. Or go through it again every few years to keep up to date. If the votes were wrong, if folks DO want to try alternate hull shapes and make the hulls a part of the development game, then Eric and Chris are on the right track and they'll have a cool little grand prix two-chine boat that still rates 150-ish.

 

I know I won't build another boat to go play with them.

 

 

Sounds great. Sounds like you guys have the answer. Let's play with expensive carbon fiber rotating rigs, gybing keels and let's just restrict the hull manipulations to what we few "leaders" have done already.

 

When everyone reads that your class has restricted what you can do to the hull shape, you also need to be stating that so has every other rule set ever written. While the i550class rule set restricts certain parts of the hull dimensions more than the other rule sets, it doesn't stop the hull manipulations you seem to fear. My hull, for instance, with an added reflex, an obvious hull shape manipulation, passes the measurement test per your rule set. Of course, you solved that problem another way and made flush decks and inboard rudders illegal. The designer has said that no hull built that fits the original rule set dimensions will be that class killer, everyone must go out and built it, hull. Not me, not the PDX guys, but the designer of the boat. Like him or not, his opinion on this matter must carry weight. Even his current "optimized" hull is not that class killer boat. It may be better in certain conditions, but not this thing to be so feared that a group (your group) wanted to eliminate over half the boats being built from being legal.

 

And this vote you talked about? What vote was that again? As I see it, the only voting done by the plan set owners, which can not belong to the i550class unless they have a boat substantially complete, was done on the old .org site and no vote was ever made on a rule set. Changing history to your way of thinking does no one any good, Chad. That is the real loss of the old information once on the .org site - the real history of what was said, what was attempted by the few of you and what the results really were.

 

The NA rule set, the PDX guys, have also restricted hull shape manipulation more the original rule set and more that what this new open550 rule set does. And the Open 550 rule set is a bit more restrictive that the original set. Hmmmm, so as the hulls from all the classes end up being pretty darn close, who is promoting this race to disposable hull designs again? The way I see it, you personally could be promoting a disposable rig class. Somehow just as expensive as building that hull.

 

At the end of the day, the difference between class rule set comes down to this. Past a few different dimensions, one class requires a cabin and outboard rudders and ... well, that seems the basis of it. So, visit the websites, read the available information and pick one to support. One that you can go and have fun with. That's what matters, all this other crap is just that.

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And, T-Ford. We don't agree with every business decision we've ever made, either. You can try to make the right call at the time, but it doesn't always work out the way you think it will ... but we do try to learn from the mistakes.

 

 

Oh yeah, sorry, I didn't really mean that as much as a criticism as I meant it to imply that it's really your call. You guy's ultimate responsibility is for the business, and then, to a lesser extent, we, the builders. I respect that. No problem there.

 

I'm sure a lot of J105 owners were not thrilled when the 109 came out, but I don't remember J105 owners publicly trashing the Johnstones for responding to market forces. It's their business and they have the right to make choices that are going to pay the bills, pay their workforce and put food on the table, so to speak. Same with you. I have a lot of respect for anyone trying to make a go of it in this business, as long as they operate honestly and ethically. Which I believe you've done. You create quality product (my "kit" went together perfectly) and deliver it on time and at an agreed-upon price. No B.S., no "well....we had to yada yada yada so the cost went up 15%." Nope, you've met every promise, every deal and every deadline and I have absolutely zero qualms about the Watershed The Business. You've had to walk a very nuanced tightrope with all the class issues, and I don't think there's any one of us who can say, with all certainty, that they've made the right call 100% of the time.

 

I think one of the understandings we came to, quickly, as a Class was: for us this is a hobby, for you this is a livelihood.

 

Hope this clears things up.

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And, T-Ford. We don't agree with every business decision we've ever made, either. You can try to make the right call at the time, but it doesn't always work out the way you think it will ... but we do try to learn from the mistakes.

 

 

Oh yeah, sorry, I didn't really mean that as much as a criticism as I meant it to imply that it's really your call. You guy's ultimate responsibility is for the business, and then, to a lesser extent, we, the builders. I respect that. No problem there.

 

I'm sure a lot of J105 owners were not thrilled when the 109 came out, but I don't remember J105 owners publicly trashing the Johnstones for responding to market forces. It's their business and they have the right to make choices that are going to pay the bills, pay their workforce and put food on the table, so to speak. Same with you. I have a lot of respect for anyone trying to make a go of it in this business, as long as they operate honestly and ethically. Which I believe you've done. You create quality product (my "kit" went together perfectly) and deliver it on time and at an agreed-upon price. No B.S., no "well....we had to yada yada yada so the cost went up 15%." Nope, you've met every promise, every deal and every deadline and I have absolutely zero qualms about the Watershed The Business. You've had to walk a very nuanced tightrope with all the class issues, and I don't think there's any one of us who can say, with all certainty, that they've made the right call 100% of the time.

 

I think one of the understandings we came to, quickly, as a Class was: for us this is a hobby, for you this is a livelihood.

 

Hope this clears things up.

 

 

No worries, T-Ford. We were mostly saying the above as an apology to anyone in your class that was offended by our past actions. We very much appreciate your support.

My Tim's off to work unless the smoke drives him back home. Wishing fair winds (and no severe weather) for all of you guys.

Susan

 

 

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You guys need to make this story very clear! Given I have been interested in the I550 idea for some time and trying to get my builder ie Father inlaw set up and into the idea of doing a project like this. I'm not alone there are a few other folks I know that find the I550 idea pretty refreshing and want to see where this class goes.

The way I see it any confusing news about designs and who sells what plans for what money etc etc starts to put nails in the coffin before the class even starts to gain momentum.

 

So I highly suggest you guys get the story strait and fast!

 

methinks your signature says -most- of it,,,,

,,,there's enough of us who have ,or are ,building one of these boats,,that it just doesn't matter what happens in the interworld,,we can still take a set of plans,,build a boat,,and go sailing,,, and have a laugh at the monsterous level of headbutting that others fall to :blink:

...it's kinda like Darwin's theory put to reality show :)

 

post-3217-054643800 1339092282_thumb.jpgpost-3217-099931500 1339092301_thumb.jpgpost-3217-024428300 1339092375_thumb.jpgpost-3217-060689500 1339092426_thumb.jpgpost-3217-069428500 1339092525_thumb.jpg

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Couch Surfer,

Love the pix, nobody does them better than you. T-Ford said it all above with "I think one of the understandings we came to, quickly, as a Class was: for us this is a hobby, for you this is a livelihood."

Was hoping to avoid the DRAAAMA (prounced in K-nook) today, but I do plan to option the novella for a Lifetime Movie. Working title is "As the Epoxy Dries."

Any Hollywood agents out there, please have your people get in touch with my people. Something located on CB's page is a Big Surprise from me. Find the Easter Egg & win a prize. (The prize depends on who you are ... More DRAAAMA promised soon ... I need to get my nails done first ...)

Respectfully,

Gracie

Canine Executive Officer

P.S. Great Quote: "Never trust anyone who doesn't like dogs." It must be true. it's on a magnet on my humans' fridge.

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...........I disagree. ,,,,,,,,,,,,, I am done with the drama. I'm going to finish my boat and sail it and have fun. People might want to come and race on the Chesapeake! Until then, have fun, build your boats and as difficult as it may be, try to be friendly?

 

Maybe?

 

cheers

tf

 

NO WAYyy,,let's get this S'show on the water <_<

....armour the boats with steel checkerplate,,,battering-ram bows,,,,truncheons,,,,scabbards......BRING IT ON!!!

 

........might be the compelling new form of competitive sailing we've ALL been looking for!!!

.....definitely much more interesting than playing -windshifts-!! :)

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well, that wasn't too hard...somewhere down in the land of cotton, old times there are not forgotten?

 

 

 

Ding! Ding! Ding! Ding! Ding! Ding! Ding! ... I think we have a winner.

Jay, what gifts do we have for our parting contestants?

 

T-Ford, AKA Dave, do you have a beverage of choice to splash on your hull as it launches? If not, will have to come up with a better prize.

 

P.S. Was not dissing K-nooks, as many of my ancestors are K-nooks. Would love to afford to live there, at least part time.

S

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How manly! The girls will swoon ...

Maybe we will have to come up with something better ... but that's pretty tough to beat.

Maybe your 8x10 Glossy on the cover of Sports Illustrated's Swim Suit Edition????

G&S

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And again, not everything written in newspaper is true. Do you really want to open that can of worms?????? We have the paperwork to prove it.

Oh Tim, I can't even begin to imagine what you mean by your disjointed and rambling posts. Entertainment for the masses I suppose.

 

Are you possibly referring the the statement in the recent newspaper article about Stephen who is the youngest builder of an i550 that, "The boat's plans were vague, his father noted"?

 

Or, is it that 2005 Pagosa Springs Sun article: "To wit, Reiter is also building a sailboat, here in Pagosa Springs. The boat Reiter and his New Zealand partner are designing does not yet exist in the world. Small and very light due to its carbon fiber components, Reiter hopes the design will blow the doors off the sailing industry. "There is a lot of sail," Reiter added. "In fact, you could say there is a ridiculous amount of sail and it's extremely fast." Where a normal sailboat will weigh 4,000 pounds. This one will weigh 950 unloaded. It is only 8 feet long and 2 feet wide and already has been written up in technical journals in Italy, Germany, England and the United States." ( http://www.pagosasun.com/archives/2005/03march/031705.htm )

 

What ever happened to that project Tim?

 

What was written in the newspaper that isn't true?

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You lot are all a fucking joke. Keep biting at each other on an international forum, that won't damage what either of you are trying to achieve! Fuck I'm glad I don't live near any of you lot. all you want to do is bitch and moan at each other. It should nearly be sailing season over there, so since you guys love to claim you have the most boats over there, get some footage and photos and promote the boat sailing and quit being fucking tools would ya. <_<

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You lot are all a fucking joke. Keep biting at each other on an international forum, that won't damage what either of you are trying to achieve! Fuck I'm glad I don't live near any of you lot. all you want to do is bitch and moan at each other.

 

That's easy for you to say, Tokes, you are getting out of the i550 game. But we need Watershed and Watershed needs us.

 

Unprincipled attacks on their business do need exposure to the light of day.

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You lot are all a fucking joke. Keep biting at each other on an international forum, that won't damage what either of you are trying to achieve! Fuck I'm glad I don't live near any of you lot. all you want to do is bitch and moan at each other. It should nearly be sailing season over there, so since you guys love to claim you have the most boats over there, get some footage and photos and promote the boat sailing and quit being fucking tools would ya. <_<

 

My thoughts exactly.

 

 

 

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All these issues are so much more complex than any of most of you are understanding. We are attempting to stop an arm's race, and a further fracturing of a simple, great design.

And because we no longer have an i550 forum where all will go, this is the only place where we can stand up for saving our business & the value of everyone's investment and hard work in their i550, whatever their stage of progress.

We also don't like the drama and consternation and the bickering. We will reassess our communication possibilities & how to better approach these intricate issues.

There is so much more happening behind the scenes. We are also asking for a presentation of GOOD solutions. A lot of the rhetoric comes from hard feelings between individuals and groups from the past ...

Now, we need to go to work.

Susan & Tim

(Written together as we always do in important posts and emails)

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