Lawson_Dixon 0 Posted October 29, 2008 Share Posted October 29, 2008 Hello, I thought I'd share some pics of the new Corsair 37RS carbon. This is #2, "Silver Chiller", sailing in Greece, recently. Note: the custom paint job looks great, but is not a factory option!! Photos courtesy of owner, Richard Mueller, who makes superb clocks! check out: http://www.erwinsattler.de/en/products/nau...autis/index.php Cheers, Lawson Link to post Share on other sites
Jolly Roger Tornado Crew 0 Posted October 29, 2008 Share Posted October 29, 2008 Looks great, But why a furling heady??? Really detroys it for me...thats just me though Link to post Share on other sites
REW 58 Posted October 29, 2008 Share Posted October 29, 2008 Hello, I thought I'd share some pics of the new Corsair 37RS carbon. This is #2, "Silver Chiller", sailing in Greece, recently. Note: the custom paint job looks great, but is not a factory option!! Photos courtesy of owner, Richard Mueller, who makes superb clocks! check out: http://www.erwinsattler.de/en/products/nau...autis/index.php Cheers, Lawson Lawson, how about some technical details/specs. Weight, carbon rig (marstrom?) etc etc. Are you guys giving any thought to manufacturing carbon spars? 2 piece? rew Link to post Share on other sites
ScowVegas 14 Posted October 29, 2008 Share Posted October 29, 2008 Looks great, But why a furling heady??? Really detroys it for me...thats just me though Actually a lot of the mid-sized tri's use furling head sail connfigurations - some even use mutiple furlers between storm/working jibs and 125% genoas. Also for safety reasons, its really hard to do a peel crashing over 12 foot rollers in 20knots of breeze with just a splinter of deck area for sail and feet. Link to post Share on other sites
munt 0 Posted October 29, 2008 Share Posted October 29, 2008 if you aint used furlers with a variety of headsails to choose from (code zero, reacher, screacher, etc.) you aint lived. The ability to shift gears quickly and furl for tacking and jibing are literally unbeatable. Link to post Share on other sites
ScowVegas 14 Posted October 29, 2008 Share Posted October 29, 2008 if you aint used furlers with a variety of headsails to choose from (code zero, reacher, screacher, etc.) you aint lived. The ability to shift gears quickly and furl for tacking and jibing are literally unbeatable. And in the big breeze if you got a 3 out, you can always reduce to a 4.5 and maintain an even helm - Link to post Share on other sites
Mysanne Throhppe 0 Posted October 29, 2008 Share Posted October 29, 2008 are there any restrictions at all, technically speaking, to using canting masts on these big tris? Randy Smyth doesn't have a canting rig on his F25C. And didn't I see in Clean's Mac coverage an interview with Scharl (GAMERA) saying that he removed his canting rig? I've a feeling that there's not that much advantage to it for the trouble, and it would be PITA in buoy racing. Link to post Share on other sites
ianlf 1 Posted October 29, 2008 Share Posted October 29, 2008 Hello, I thought I'd share some pics of the new Corsair 37RS carbon. This is #2, "Silver Chiller", sailing in Greece, recently. As this boat uses a copy of my Farrier folding system, is there anyone prepared to put their name on it? I ask as it is a renamed version of the C36, one of which I had to inspect in Texas (by request of owner) after it had a major structural failure in the beam system. I found the structure not to my standards, with a major load path that I always use missing. In fact I believe the flex resulting from the beam structure as designed, was a contributing reason why so many C36 masts fell forward, a problem that has also been blamed on having the chainplates too far forward. The insurance/survey report on this boat then called it an F-36, which it was definitely not, but such misleading information could be very damaging for the real F-36 design, which is a serious and well proven ocean going boat, with one circumnavigation under its belt. Obviously I do not want any boats with copies of my folding system out there that have not been engineered properly, as it is a matter of safety, plus they could cause serious harm to my reputation and designs. So I would be interested to hear what has been done to rectify the problems, and are you prepared to name who actually designed and engineered this latest variation of the C36, and their qualifications for doing so? Ian Farrier Farrier Marine, Inc Link to post Share on other sites
nige 46 Posted October 29, 2008 Share Posted October 29, 2008 are there any restrictions at all, technically speaking, to using canting masts on these big tris? Randy Smyth doesn't have a canting rig on his F25C. And didn't I see in Clean's Mac coverage an interview with Scharl (GAMERA) saying that he removed his canting rig? I've a feeling that there's not that much advantage to it for the trouble, and it would be PITA in buoy racing. i used it for a season on a friend's F31R++ boat. the difference in feel is HUGE, like a different boat. at one point we were tight reaching getting hit with short nasty blasts. ok, so we had too much sail because when we finally reduced the sail the speed increased. but before that we canted the rig and i stopped worrying about the puffs, the tip of the lee ama never got wet. walking away from a j130 and a tripp 50 on an upwind leg while hitting 16 knots was the highlight of the season (i see you reading, B30!). but in tight W/L it does take too much time to tack the boat so we kept it centered, especially in moderate winds. the only thing i would add is an on-the-fly forestay adjustment because the rake is reduced as you cant to weather. i mean, you add a few blocks, couple of jammers, and you don't have to use it. on my friend's boat i believe some work was done in the ama to anchor the turning blocks for the purchase system. curious what Corsair and Ian F. think about it. s. How much where you canting? When you say the tip of the lee ama never got wet, you are saying it had a dramatic effect on the displacement of the leward ama right? (rather than fore/aft trim of it) Link to post Share on other sites
REW 58 Posted October 29, 2008 Share Posted October 29, 2008 How much where you canting? When you say the tip of the lee ama never got wet, you are saying it had a dramatic effect on the displacement of the leward ama right? (rather than fore/aft trim of it) right. in those reaching puffs, the ama tip got buried couple of times before we canted. after that i didn't even have to look at it. don't know how many degrees on the mast, up to about 9" on the cap shroud length reduction. it's so easy, even i could do it! would corsair folks or Ian comment on this? good, bad, indifferent, bad for boat structure? s. I'm not Corsair or Ian, but we cant the rig on Cheekee Monkee, my highly modified f-31. The rig canting alone doesn't seem to require a lot of modification to anything structural. Keep in mind on monkee though that virtually everything has been structurally modified to handle the loads due to lifting foils and all of the other mods that have been done. The benefit of the canting is extraordinary, gains us a few degrees of pointing and reduces force on the leward ama. My system doesn't use a multi part purchase as was used on the C31 1D's, but rather uses integral hydaulic adjusters by Sailtec. Total stroke on these is 14" (fully in to fully out) moves the top of the rig about 18" off center each way. Down side on Hydraulics is they are a little on the heavy side, but Monkee is already a spaghetti machine and less rope is a good thing. Also the rig is easily adjusted under load. Matt got rid of the canting on Gamera because he didn't like the 3 second rating hit. He also went back to wire shrouds because he didn't like/want any stretch. Monkees rating is already pretty well screwed so what's one more rating hit? Link to post Share on other sites
Lawson_Dixon 0 Posted October 30, 2008 Author Share Posted October 30, 2008 Dear all, There were a total of 22 Corsair 36's built, and yes, there were some issues with early examples, all of which to our knowledge have been addressed. This includes the boat in Texas, which I understand is sailing and racing, trouble free to this day. The C37 models are a vastly improved boat, and we are proud to call this a Corsair design. We're now building hull #9, and of these, two have sailed on their own bottoms from Vietnam on their maiden voyages, and have many trouble free miles under their hulls. Before making any hasty judgements, might I suggest an inspection and test sail? We are confident that it would put to rest any doubts or concerns. For those sitting down with popcorn at the ready, sorry... It's our policy not to get involved in churlish tit for tat postings, nor in the denigration or highjacking of others efforts: we've not done it in the Yahoo groups, we've not done it on our website, and we certainly won't be doing so here Meanwhile, if anyone out there has a genuine concern or question, please PM me, or email me direct: ldixon@corsairmarine.com Back to the topic: Pictures of the Corsair 37RS Carbon! Here's #1 (Zhuka) in Thailand, and #3 (Miss Saigon) in Vietnam prior to her maiden voyage. Enjoy! Lawson Link to post Share on other sites
Dick Ishuge 0 Posted October 30, 2008 Share Posted October 30, 2008 Back to the topic: Pictures of the Corsair 37RS Carbon! Here's #1 (Zhuka) in Thailand, and #3 (Miss Saigon) in Vietnam prior to her maiden voyage. Enjoy! Bugger, my popcorn's gone cold now. Nice porn though. Hey Mike Leneman you out there Link to post Share on other sites
THOR 39 Posted October 30, 2008 Share Posted October 30, 2008 Weird, I thought I asked a question about adding canting systmes one these big tris. Twice.s. make a new thread SOlo :-) Thanks for the picks.,. those are looking very tasty indeed thor Link to post Share on other sites
ScowVegas 14 Posted October 30, 2008 Share Posted October 30, 2008 Weird, I thought I asked a question about adding canting systmes one these big tris. Twice.s. REW Wrote: "I'm not Corsair or Ian, but we cant the rig on Cheekee Monkee, my highly modified f-31. The rig canting alone doesn't seem to require a lot of modification to anything structural. Keep in mind on monkee though that virtually everything has been structurally modified to handle the loads due to lifting foils and all of the other mods that have been done. The benefit of the canting is extraordinary, gains us a few degrees of pointing and reduces force on the leward ama. My system doesn't use a multi part purchase as was used on the C31 1D's, but rather uses integral hydaulic adjusters by Sailtec. Total stroke on these is 14" (fully in to fully out) moves the top of the rig about 18" off center each way. Down side on Hydraulics is they are a little on the heavy side, but Monkee is already a spaghetti machine and less rope is a good thing. Also the rig is easily adjusted under load. Matt got rid of the canting on Gamera because he didn't like the 3 second rating hit. He also went back to wire shrouds because he didn't like/want any stretch. Monkees rating is already pretty well screwed so what's one more rating hit?" Ron's thoughts on subject are spot on - and they come from good source... Link to post Share on other sites
ScowVegas 14 Posted October 30, 2008 Share Posted October 30, 2008 Ron's thoughts on subject are spot on - and they come from good source... um, i read them. but ron's boat is not really a corsair or a farrier anymore. i thought that being a forum participant and all, corsair folks could step up and offer some real, knowledgeable information. s. I guess you can keep asking...can't hurt right? Link to post Share on other sites
REW 58 Posted October 30, 2008 Share Posted October 30, 2008 Ron's thoughts on subject are spot on - and they come from good source... um, i read them. but ron's boat is not really a corsair or a farrier anymore. i thought that being a forum participant and all, corsair folks could step up and offer some real, knowledgeable information. s. It's not a Corsair anymore, but as for rig canting the areas of load to watch would with rig canting would be the Capshroud chainplates and the mast deckstep plate/rotator ball. The deck plat is stock corsair with one change, we had cheekplates welded on for the mast base sheaves for the halyards (nothing to do with rig canting) and went with some high load harken sheaves instead of the original shaeffers. The bulkheads in the floats that the chainplates were refaced with carbon but this probably had more to do with the added rig height, increased sailarea, masthead spinn and screacher rather than loading from rig canting. Link to post Share on other sites
ianlf 1 Posted October 30, 2008 Share Posted October 30, 2008 For those sitting down with popcorn at the ready, sorry... It's our policy not to get involved in churlish tit for tat postings, nor in the denigration or highjacking of others efforts: So I guess the answer is no, and you are not going to reveal who designed or engineered the C36/C37. I know Corporate anonymity is preferred by many, as one can just put something together, enough to do the job, without too much effort, and if it all goes wrong, then just start up again somewhere else. In fact that was how Corsair's original owner wanted me to be once I had setup his company and developed the F-27 - just a paid employee who would design whatever he was told. However, he also wanted to use my name to sell his stuff, so I decided I would rather leave. Being prepared to put your name on a boat is certainly not so easy, and I have spent many sleepless nights wondering if I had covered or checked everything. Sure makes one much sharper, prepared to work endless hours, and very careful about how it is designed, double and triple checking everything. One is also not going allow that boat to be built if quality is lacking, or customers are treated poorly. Being willing to back a product with your own name tends to make one very careful. The problems with the C36 were significant, and bringing attention to what are serious safety issues should not be laughed off as churlish comments. Having inspected one C36 I would not take such a boat offshore. I have also heard of C36 owners with problems, even months after the first failure. Some even emailed me for advice. Did Corsair actually send out an advisory bulletin to all existing owners, or go out and inspect every boat at that time? Frankly, it does not do anyone any good when any trimaran has structural problems at sea, and it is in my interests if every boat with my folding system on it, authorized or not, is structurally sound. So if you wish, I am happy take a quick look at the C37 beam structure, and check it out to see there are no obvious weaknesses, as I saw on that C36. All you have to do is send me the necessary drawings. Ian Farrier Farrier Marine (NZ) Ltd Farrier Marine, Inc Link to post Share on other sites
hokie 14 Posted October 30, 2008 Share Posted October 30, 2008 Is it just the change in the angle the forces are applied that needs to be compensated for? (for the canting rig) Link to post Share on other sites
Rajinder 1 Posted October 30, 2008 Share Posted October 30, 2008 For those sitting down with popcorn at the ready, sorry... It's our policy not to get involved in churlish tit for tat postings, nor in the denigration or highjacking of others efforts: So I guess the answer is no, and you are not going to reveal who designed or engineered the C36/C37. I know Corporate anonymity is preferred by many, as one can just put something together, enough to do the job, without too much effort, and if it all goes wrong, then just start up again somewhere else. In fact that was how Corsair's original owner wanted me to be once I had setup his company and developed the F-27 - just a paid employee who would design whatever he was told. However, he also wanted to use my name to sell his stuff, so I decided I would rather leave. Being prepared to put your name on a boat is certainly not so easy, and I have spent many sleepless nights wondering if I had covered or checked everything. Sure makes one much sharper, prepared to work endless hours, and very careful about how it is designed, double and triple checking everything. One is also not going allow that boat to be built if quality is lacking, or customers are treated poorly. Being willing to back a product with your own name tends to make one very careful. The problems with the C36 were significant, and bringing attention to what are serious safety issues should not be laughed off as churlish comments. Having inspected one C36 I would not take such a boat offshore. I have also heard of C36 owners with problems, even months after the first failure. Some even emailed me for advice. Did Corsair actually send out an advisory bulletin to all existing owners, or go out and inspect every boat at that time? Frankly, it does not do anyone any good when any trimaran has structural problems at sea, and it is in my interests if every boat with my folding system on it, authorized or not, is structurally sound. So if you wish, I am happy take a quick look at the C37 beam structure, and check it out to see there are no obvious weaknesses, as I saw on that C36. All you have to do is send me the necessary drawings. Ian Farrier Farrier Marine (NZ) Ltd Farrier Marine, Inc Why oh why does the multihull community eat their own? Where did all the multi police come from?? Ian - I have nothing to do with Corsair and I like your stuff. We met on more the one occasion and I have an F27. I sang your praises again this past weekend. But the JW stuff is ancient history and bitters are for old fashions. Let it go. He is not Corsair and Corsair is not he. Just as you have, Corsair - yes Corsair - has done a lot of good for US multihull/trimaran sailors. If a C36 or C37 owner(s) has an issue with a boat(s) they should speak up and not use you as a puppet. Lawson - We all get that there was a bad break-up here. Almost nobody that sails trimarans is unaware of that. As an owner I wish both sides would STFU on that point. But it's not unreasonable for anyone to ask who the designer of the C36/37 is and what their track record is. The other BS aside, can you answer that? And for you both, Solo asked a reasonable question. I am curious myself. Take any stock Farrier or Corsair design and simply make a canting mast. What % performance boost would you expect? Link to post Share on other sites
Lawson_Dixon 0 Posted October 30, 2008 Author Share Posted October 30, 2008 Hi all, We used a canting rig on the 31-1D... It's a rocket ship in the right hands. In the hands of us mere mortals, well... As far as the C37 goes: Its a CORSAIR!! We employ many designers, engineers and draftsmen (as well as consultants)... all part of the 180 plus employees at Corsair who ensure we make great boats. The days of Corsair being a one man band are long gone, thank goodness. Cheers, Lawson Link to post Share on other sites
REW 58 Posted October 30, 2008 Share Posted October 30, 2008 And for you both, Solo asked a reasonable question. I am curious myself. Take any stock Farrier or Corsair design and simply make a canting mast. What % performance boost would you expect? Performance boost is not a linear answer and very hard to quantify. In breeze it gives us 3 to 5 degrees better pointing abiliy for a given boat speed. In light air it does nothing and doesn't even get used, that is of course unless canting to leward to put some gravity shape into the sails in the almost no wind light stuff. On a reach in breeze it allows us to carry a bit more sail without pressing the leward ama into submarine duty. I have lots of experience with it but don't know how to quantify it. Phrf flaw, it's probably not worth a 3 second hit on a boat that rates -15, but on one that rates -63, different story. rew Link to post Share on other sites
Rajinder 1 Posted October 30, 2008 Share Posted October 30, 2008 I fixed your post for you. Hi all, We used a canting rig on the 31-1D... It's a rocket ship in the right hands. In the hands of us mere mortals, well... As far as the C37 goes: Its a CORSAIR!! We employ many designers, engineers and draftsmen (as well as consultants)... all part of the 180 plus employees at Corsair who ensure we make great boats. Cheers, Lawson Link to post Share on other sites
Lawson_Dixon 0 Posted October 31, 2008 Author Share Posted October 31, 2008 Thanks JOMBP, point taken, and quite right too. Lawson I fixed your post for you. Hi all, We used a canting rig on the 31-1D... It's a rocket ship in the right hands. In the hands of us mere mortals, well... As far as the C37 goes: Its a CORSAIR!! We employ many designers, engineers and draftsmen (as well as consultants)... all part of the 180 plus employees at Corsair who ensure we make great boats. Cheers, Lawson Link to post Share on other sites
Triceratops 1 Posted October 31, 2008 Share Posted October 31, 2008 not wanting to continue this really but even the add for the Corsair 50 specifies a designer, in this case Rache-Pugh. Tri Thanks JOMBP, point taken, and quite right too. Lawson I fixed your post for you. Hi all, We used a canting rig on the 31-1D... It's a rocket ship in the right hands. In the hands of us mere mortals, well... As far as the C37 goes: Its a CORSAIR!! We employ many designers, engineers and draftsmen (as well as consultants)... all part of the 180 plus employees at Corsair who ensure we make great boats. Cheers, Lawson Link to post Share on other sites
ianlf 1 Posted October 31, 2008 Share Posted October 31, 2008 Hi all, As far as the C37 goes: Its a CORSAIR!! We employ many designers, engineers and draftsmen (as well as consultants)... all part of the 180 plus employees at Corsair who ensure we make great boats. It is understandable that no one wants to take responsibility for the C36/C37 design, but the safety concerns remain. I have advised you that the structure of the C36 was inadequate, and this was also confirmed by an independent engineering study and testing done on the failed boat by Lamar University's Engineering Department, Texas. I have also now asked you four times privately if you intended to recall these boats, or at the very least, send an advisory bulletin to all owners, warning them of the problem and what to watch for. You have not answered, and from what I have been able to ascertain, from various feedback, no recall was done, nor was any advisory bulletin ever sent out. The C36 incorporates a copy of my folding system, designed/engineered by others unknown, but I still have an interest in its ongoing structural safety, and certainly do not want any more failures at sea. So to put my mind at rest, has any recall ever been done, or was any official advisory bulletin ever sent out to C36 owners, and if so, when? Link to post Share on other sites
Lawson_Dixon 0 Posted November 1, 2008 Author Share Posted November 1, 2008 I have also now asked you four times privately... This is a bit misleading. Mr Farrier and I have never met and never corresponded with each other on any topic at all. For all out there, Corsair stands behind all of its products and models. All issues we are aware of with all old 36s including the 'Texas' boat have been addressed. Back to the topic, here's some lovely shots of the Corsair-designed-and-engineered Corsair C37RS Carbon in the recent Middle Sea Race. Enjoy! Cheers, Lawson PS: Jeepers! At this rate, I'm going to run out of new pics.... Link to post Share on other sites
ianlf 1 Posted November 1, 2008 Share Posted November 1, 2008 I have also now asked you four times privately... This is a bit misleading. Mr Farrier and I have never met and never corresponded with each other on any topic at all. You still haven't answered the question. My four earlier emails in regard to this matter were sent to the President of Corsair Marine, Paul Koch (still there), along with his factory manager at that time. The 'you' in my previous email means 'Corsair', not Lawson Dixon. But if, as you say, corporate Corsair is responsible for the C36 design, then corporate Corsair should also be answering the questions. The reason for my ongoing concerns is that C36 owners kept contacting me for information on what what happened, and what they should do about it, or watch for. It did not sound like they had heard from Corsair, and I was having to do your customer support work, and for a boat that someone else still unknown had designed. Even a Corsair dealer emailed me and stated " I would not even know about it myself were it not that one of my friends in Texas who knew the first surveyor called me to let me know. Throughout the whole thing, we dealers received nothing in the way of warnings or information of any kind." Ian Farrier Farrier Marine (NZ) Ltd Farrier Marine, Inc Link to post Share on other sites
GMT 7 Posted November 1, 2008 Share Posted November 1, 2008 I have also now asked you four times privately... This is a bit misleading. Mr Farrier and I have never met and never corresponded with each other on any topic at all. You still haven't answered the question. My four earlier emails in regard to this matter were sent to the President of Corsair Marine, Paul Koch (still there), along with his factory manager at that time. The 'you' in my previous email means 'Corsair', not Lawson Dixon. But if, as you say, corporate Corsair is responsible for the C36 design, then corporate Corsair should also be answering the questions. The reason for my ongoing concerns is that C36 owners kept contacting me for information on what what happened, and what they should do about it, or watch for. It did not sound like they had heard from Corsair, and I was having to do your customer support work, and for a boat that someone else still unknown had designed. Even a Corsair dealer emailed me and stated " I would not even know about it myself were it not that one of my friends in Texas who knew the first surveyor called me to let me know. Throughout the whole thing, we dealers received nothing in the way of warnings or information of any kind." Ian Farrier Farrier Marine (NZ) Ltd Farrier Marine, Inc Mr. Farrier, You seem like an angry fellow. Left Corsair and then fell on your face did you? Bit a a flop? Could not even copy the Corsair line could you? I mean I saw the F32RX. Paced it too. What does the R and X in the F32RX stand for? I mean, we sailed right over the top of your boat. Faster, higher, for less money, with better accomodations. Seems your F32RX is about 1000 lbs too heavy and $100,000 too expensive. So I know the "R" can't stand for racing. Does the "X" stand for extra weight and extra price? Do you plan to market that boat in the US? God luck with that. Oh, wait, that's right, you can't hack it in the US. You don't market here. HEY MR FARRIER, IF YOU ARE ALL THAT, WHY DON'T YOU COME BEAT CORSAIR AT THEIR GAME? But you can't, so you tilt at windmills and cry like some little kid that took his marbles and went home and now finds he has no friends left to play with. Too bad. So sad. But could you you please go scream into the wind somewhere else? Like maybe the F-boats forum. Oh, wait, that has been taken over by Corsair owners too. Gee, I wonder why we never heard from all these poor C36/37 owners there. Or here? No, just your spun version. HEY MR FARRIER CAN YOU TELL US: WHAT WAS THE TOTAL COST FOR THE F32RX AT THE SHOW AND HOW MUCH DOES IT WEIGH (TELL THE TRUTH, NOW)? OH, CAN YOU ALSO TELL US ABOUT THE PERFORMANCE? YOU KNOW, LIKE WHAT BOAT SPEEDS WERE YOU SEEING UPWIND IN WHAT WIND SPEEDS AND WHAT WERE THE TACKING ANGLES? I would like to compare it too the C31R which I know well! Link to post Share on other sites
PorVida 8 Posted November 2, 2008 Share Posted November 2, 2008 So, with this lovely public fistfight, we have a wonderful welcome to the newly established SA Multihull Forum. The comment above about the eating of our own is more than poignant. Ian... why is it that you are doing this on a public Forum? You say you have written to the folks at Corsair and they have chosen to not respond to your letters. Is that not a clear enough indication that Corsair does not wish to engage in the discussion? Are you currently involved with Corsair financially in any way? If not, why are you bothering to answer letters from existing Corsair owners? Does it not make sense to just let it all go and be fully engaged with your own enterprises at this time? Why are you choosing to denigrate the Corsair firm in public over misplaced charges and supposed responsibilities? Isn't your folding system patent now long past its expiration date? Does it not seem prudent to step out of the way of anybody who chooses to now use the device, which is no longer patent protected? What possible interest could you have now that your part of the protection has expired? Are you making an issue where one does not exist? Do you miss the interaction with Corsair that filled so many hours of your adult life?.... just what is the motivation for splashing your long gone interest, as if you still had something to say about how it is used and on what kinds of vessels? Where do you feel that you can insist that the current users of that invention have to submit qualified engineering reports in order to justify their use of the system to you? All this sounds like you are just brimming with anger over things that probably happened a very long time ago and have virtually no bearing on your listed complaints at present. So, what gives, Ian? What's got you so worked-up that you feel it important to take time out of what you constantly insist is an overly filled schedule already? Don't you really have much better things to do with yourself, besides wrecking a significant component of your public persona with an open warfare situation? That's a mighty big anger you got going on there and now that you've made it public, it's lent a whole new set of issues which say so many more things about you, than it ever could say about Corsair. There are a lot of guys out there who have a heap of respect for your work, me included, but this kind of stuff really pushes you back into the morass of all the other ugly scenarios in a world full of same. I wish you well in your pursuit, but this really saddens me, as well as a whole bunch of other dedicated multihull folks. Chris Ostlind Lunada Design Link to post Share on other sites
Doug Lord 1,219 Posted November 2, 2008 Share Posted November 2, 2008 So, with this lovely public fistfight, we have a wonderful welcome to the newly established SA Multihull Forum. The comment above about the eating of our own is more than poignant. Ian... why is it that you are doing this on a public Forum? You say you have written to the folks at Corsair and they have chosen to not respond to your letters. Is that not a clear enough indication that Corsair does not wish to engage in the discussion? Are you currently involved with Corsair financially in any way? If not, why are you bothering to answer letters from existing Corsair owners? Does it not make sense to just let it all go and be fully engaged with your own enterprises at this time? Why are you choosing to denigrate the Corsair firm in public over misplaced charges and supposed responsibilities? Isn't your folding system patent now long past its expiration date? Does it not seem prudent to step out of the way of anybody who chooses to now use the device, which is no longer patent protected? What possible interest could you have now that your part of the protection has expired? Are you making an issue where one does not exist? Do you miss the interaction with Corsair that filled so many hours of your adult life?.... just what is the motivation for splashing your long gone interest, as if you still had something to say about how it is used and on what kinds of vessels? Where do you feel that you can insist that the current users of that invention have to submit qualified engineering reports in order to justify their use of the system to you? All this sounds like you are just brimming with anger over things that probably happened a very long time ago and have virtually no bearing on your listed complaints at present. So, what gives, Ian? What's got you so worked-up that you feel it important to take time out of what you constantly insist is an overly filled schedule already? Don't you really have much better things to do with yourself, besides wrecking a significant component of your public persona with an open warfare situation? That's a mighty big anger you got going on there and now that you've made it public, it's lent a whole new set of issues which say so many more things about you, than it ever could say about Corsair. There are a lot of guys out there who have a heap of respect for your work, me included, but this kind of stuff really pushes you back into the morass of all the other ugly scenarios in a world full of same. I wish you well in your pursuit, but this really saddens me, as well as a whole bunch of other dedicated multihull folks. Chris Ostlind Lunada Design ======================== ostlind the flim-flam man: Clearly you don't know your ass from a hole in the ground. You just don't know what you're talking about!!!! Link to post Share on other sites
ianlf 1 Posted November 2, 2008 Share Posted November 2, 2008 Hmmmm... stirred up quite a nest of vipers here, with nasty remarks, personal attacks, and some rather breathtaking ignorance. Strangely, they seem to be defending the right of a Corporation to not support its product, or to not notify owners that a serious defect may exist. Corporate responsibility is a serious issue, and any manufacturer who produces a defective or unsafe product, and then does not recall it, or at the least send a Safety Advisory Bulletin to owners is letting down all their owners. Owners should be asking for answers, and not trying to hide the issue under the carpet. Attacking the messenger is not going to solve the problem. The patent for the Farrier Folding System™ expired many years ago, and anyone can now use it. However, as its inventor I will be keeping a watchful eye on who is using it, to protect its world wide good reputation. Should I find someone who is not implementing it properly, or being negligent, then I will be subjecting them to public scrutiny. Corsair could have easily answered my first posting some time ago, with exactly what they did in regards to the C36 problems, and who was responsible for the C37 design. There must be someone in charge of their design process. Why the secrecy, and why the stalling? Ian Farrier Farrier Marine (NZ) Ltd Farrier Marine, Inc Link to post Share on other sites
MoMP 7 Posted November 2, 2008 Share Posted November 2, 2008 Truth be told, I'd like to know who is the lead designer for these boats at Corsair as well. Link to post Share on other sites
Triceratops 1 Posted November 2, 2008 Share Posted November 2, 2008 I can tell you that Ian Farrier has always treated me with great respect, even though I own a Corsair F31R. It was built while he was at Corsair and he as always stood behind his product. Answered questions and helped design reinforcements to parts that have broken. All usually within a couple days. I also had opportunity to sail the C36 on a long passage and opted not to as I had safety concerns with the boat. And yes my concerns did become the crews concern as far as I had heard. This was 1.5 years ago. Would I like to take a larger Tri out and put it through its paces, hell yea, but I also want to come home. I personally think some scimping in certain area's needs to be avoided. Build it tank tough, not minimalistic, thats what I would tell Corsair. Tri Link to post Share on other sites
GMT 7 Posted November 2, 2008 Share Posted November 2, 2008 Hmmmm... stirred up quite a nest of vipers here, with nasty remarks, personal attacks, and some rather breathtaking ignorance. Strangely, they seem to be defending the right of a Corporation to not support its product, or to not notify owners that a serious defect may exist. Corporate responsibility is a serious issue, and any manufacturer who produces a defective or unsafe product, and then does not recall it, or at the least send a Safety Advisory Bulletin to owners is letting down all their owners. Owners should be asking for answers, and not trying to hide the issue under the carpet. Attacking the messenger is not going to solve the problem. The patent for the Farrier Folding System™ expired many years ago, and anyone can now use it. However, as its inventor I will be keeping a watchful eye on who is using it, to protect its world wide good reputation. Should I find someone who is not implementing it properly, or being negligent, then I will be subjecting them to public scrutiny. Corsair could have easily answered my first posting some time ago, with exactly what they did in regards to the C36 problems, and who was responsible for the C37 design. There must be someone in charge of their design process. Why the secrecy, and why the stalling? Ian Farrier Farrier Marine (NZ) Ltd Farrier Marine, Inc OK, so you protect the world against someone not properly implementing your "I have no standing patent folding system." The world will sleep much better knowing you are on the case. And now you move from attacking Corsair to attacking the owners: "Owners should be asking for answers, and not trying to hide the issue under the carpet." Who is next on your list? Now of course you well know that Corsair can't be talking to you about any teething problem any owner has. You are not the owner or the owner's representative. You are just a loud mouth pain in the ass busy body who should go away. And the owners that you CLAIM have a problem actually don't have any problem at all. Its just you twisting stories and tilting at windmills. The only person you represent is you, trying to discredit a company that you can't beat in the marketplace by spreading a bunch twisted BS. If and when you are ever done twisting and tilting, could you pause long enough to answer a few questions about YOUR boats? Or are you too embarrassed to talk about YOUR boats? How much does the F32RX at the Annapolis show weigh? How much was the build and design cost? When out sailing on the Chesapeake afterwards, what was the upwind speed, in what true wind speed and what were the tacking angles? What does the R and X stand for? How do you think the F32RX would do in a W/L race against a C31R, or even a C28? Is the F32RX road/trailer legal in the US like the C31 or C28 are, or do you need wide load permits? You sure seem to like throwing shit around but you don't like to answer any questions. Why is that? When are you going to answer some simple questions Mr. Farrier? Link to post Share on other sites
ianlf 1 Posted November 2, 2008 Share Posted November 2, 2008 How much does the F32RX at the Annapolis show weigh? How much was the build and design cost? When out sailing on the Chesapeake afterwards, what was the upwind speed, in what true wind speed and what were the tacking angles? What does the R and X stand for? How do you think the F32RX would do in a W/L race against a C31R, or even a C28? Is the F32RX road/trailer legal in the US like the C31 or C28 are, or do you need wide load permits? When are you going to answer some simple questions Mr. Farrier? Perhaps you should do some research. Most of those questions have already been answered on my web site or the F-boat forum (for Farrier designs). http://www.f-boat.com/pages/news/f32new.html http://groups.yahoo.com/group/F-Boats/ Having designed all of them, I can state that setup equally, with equal crews, the F-32RX will easily be faster than both the C31R and C28. The F-32 or F32RX are 'one offs' and weight will vary depending type of construction, purpose and options, but will range from 2800lbs to 3600lbs. One example: http://www.f-boat.com/pages/News2/F-32Italy1.html Production boats carry from 300 to 500lbs of gelcoat, so will always be heavier compared to an equivalent one-off. Cost will vary from a base price of around $133,000 for an all epoxy boat as currently being offered by Melvest Marine, up to over $400,000 for the ultimate no cost spared boat. The F-32 is also the home builder's version of the F-33, and will thus have similar performance, and the F-33 already has a well established race record. http://www.f-boat.com/pages/News2/F-33RoundIsland.html I have always found actual race results to be much better indicator of how fast a boat really is, rather than unsubstantiated claims that tend to be thrown around by some. Ian Farrier Farrier Marine (NZ) Ltd Farrier Marine, Inc Link to post Share on other sites
Y-Bar 0 Posted November 2, 2008 Share Posted November 2, 2008 I can tell you that Ian Farrier has always treated me with great respect, even though I own a Corsair F31R. It was built while he was at Corsair and he as always stood behind his product. Answered questions and helped design reinforcements to parts that have broken. All usually within a couple days. I also had opportunity to sail the C36 on a long passage and opted not to as I had safety concerns with the boat. And yes my concerns did become the crews concern as far as I had heard. This was 1.5 years ago. Would I like to take a larger Tri out and put it through its paces, hell yea, but I also want to come home. I personally think some scimping in certain area's needs to be avoided. Build it tank tough, not minimalistic, thats what I would tell Corsair. Tri Am I right to assume that C36 that had the beam and shroud / mast support issues was built after Mr Farrier left Corsair and this was attributed to changes in what were most likely his initial designs. What were your safety concerns with the C36 and what were the crews safety concerns. Mr Farrier seems to be making an issue out of this and Corsair dont want to comment. Did you see the C36 problems or speak to the owners / crew of boats concerned or the one you had the opportunity to sail on. What broke and needed reinforcing on your 31. Link to post Share on other sites
Statler 0 Posted November 2, 2008 Share Posted November 2, 2008 It's nice that the net allows for a place to discuss these issues and unfortunate it also makes it so easy for people to speak to each other (or about each other) in a way that they never would in person. (or if they did in person one would expect the object of their abuse to just turn around and walk off). my biggest respect to the manufacturer or designer who tells some of these rude folks to fuck off and call when they are actually in the market for a tri in the mid to high thirty foot range. So how about some more of the title of this thread huh? Link to post Share on other sites
Lawson_Dixon 0 Posted November 3, 2008 Author Share Posted November 3, 2008 It's nice that the net allows for a place to discuss these issues and unfortunate it also makes it so easy for people to speak to each other (or about each other) in a way that they never would in person. (or if they did in person one would expect the object of their abuse to just turn around and walk off). my biggest respect to the manufacturer or designer who tells some of these rude folks to fuck off and call when they are actually in the market for a tri in the mid to high thirty foot range. So how about some more of the title of this thread huh? Here you go! Scraping the bottom of the C37RS Carbon picture barrel now... In response to an earlier post: we are hardly a faceless corporation - we are a small, owner-run business, passionate about our product, and (modestly) proud of our achievements. Any Corsair owner (or potential owner) out there, with any concerns, is encuraged to contact either a dealer or Corsair directly. Kind regards, Lawson Link to post Share on other sites
ianlf 1 Posted November 3, 2008 Share Posted November 3, 2008 Tri Am I right to assume that C36 that had the beam and shroud / mast support issues was built after Mr Farrier left Corsair and this was attributed to changes in what were most likely his initial designs. I started out doing an F-35 design for Corsair, but after a factory inspection in 2000 I decided that I did not want them building any more of my designs. Thus I only did the basic hull lines, and everything else was designed and engineered by someone at Corsair. Ian Farrier Farrier Marine (NZ) Ltd Farrier Marine, Inc Link to post Share on other sites
PorVida 8 Posted November 3, 2008 Share Posted November 3, 2008 Hmmmm... stirred up quite a nest of vipers here, with nasty remarks, personal attacks, and some rather breathtaking ignorance. Ian, you started this BS. Man-up and admit that component of the argument and you may get back some of the lost integrity you have suffered as a result of your unsubstantiated tirade against Corsair. What the hell do you expect to accomplish with this ridiculous argument, anyway? Strangely, they seem to be defending the right of a Corporation to not support its product, or to not notify owners that a serious defect may exist. It's not your job Sheriff Ian, Take a seat in the saloon, put away those pistolas of yours and have a few cold ones. I'm sure it will all come clear for you after you calm down a bit. You have no business messing with the interests of Corsair, plain and simple. That right ended a long time ago. You're not simply getting all huffy because you, as an owner of one of their boats, have been faulted in some way. No, you are stepping way outside the boundaries of a prudent former business associate who's been done wrong and now you look like a guy with a backpack full of sour grapes. Eat them on your own, please. What I'm supporting (and this has nothing to do with Corsair) is that you have no right to screw with a business in which you have no financial interest and no patent claims as to their build techniques, or materials used. Flat out, Ian, you should be keeping your mouth shut and concentrating on the things before you in which you have an interest. Instead, we see a revered designer who is way out of line with his diatribe-oriented commentary and you.... That’s right you, Ian.... Have made a nice mess of your legacy in all this. What do you possibly hope to gain against what it will cost you in the eyes of the multihull community? What could possibly be bothering you all these years since your split with Corsair, that you have to prostrate yourself in front of the SA Multihull Forum? It's beyond me and it looks to be a very serious meltdown of a previously highly regarded designer with an excellent portfolio. Corporate responsibility is a serious issue, and any manufacturer who produces a defective or unsafe product, and then does not recall it, or at the least send a Safety Advisory Bulletin to owners is letting down all their owners. Owners should be asking for answers, and not trying to hide the issue under the carpet. Attacking the messenger is not going to solve the problem. That's great Ian. I had no idea that you were such a bleeding heart for the consumer; You, the guy who took deposits on an, as yet, unfinshed set of plans for the F22. You are not a messenger for consumerism or a closeted representative of same, Ian. You're a former business associate who has gone rogue on the partnership dissolution because you, apparently, still have a hefty axe to grind. When is this obsession going to end for you? How long does it take for a guy to get over it professionally and move on? Give us the number of years since you got out of the Corsair partnership so we can see just what it is that you are festering about. The patent for the Farrier Folding System™ expired many years ago, and anyone can now use it. However, as its inventor I will be keeping a watchful eye on who is using it, to protect its world wide good reputation. Should I find someone who is not implementing it properly, or being negligent, then I will be subjecting them to public scrutiny. Ian.... when are you going to get it.....? Your interests in these matters ended a long time ago? If it's such a stick up your butt, why don't you spend the money to hire an attorney and pursue the supposed ugliness that has been caused by Corsair in this matter? May I be so bold as to provide the answer before your mouth even moves on the topic?...... You don't have shit to say in the matter and it would be thrown out of court the moment you get it filed. Come on, man.... Get a grip. These matters have long ago left your area of interest and/or control. Let them go, get on with your life and your existing projects and salvage some measure of your dignity before you totally drop that part of your earned reputation in the septic tank, as well. Corsair could have easily answered my first posting some time ago, with exactly what they did in regards to the C36 problems, and who was responsible for the C37 design. There must be someone in charge of their design process. Why the secrecy, and why the stalling? Don't you get it, Ian? They don't care what you think on these matters. They don't have to answer your fitful queries and you no longer count when it comes to how they build, sell and support their boats. You matter as much to their business plan as a pile of extra crispy bacon at your favorite seaside diner. Again... get over it and move on. Surely you have better stuff to do with your time than make a fool of yourself on these pages? Am I repeating myself? This has been really painful for me. Yes, we have had our round and rounds in years past over all kinds of topics. That matters little in all this. What has remained constant for me is your excellent professional contribution to the genre of folding trimarans and your amazing sense of engineering with regards to the same types of boats. No matter what we sparred about, or on what Forum it took place, I still retained that sense of respect for your work. Now, I am deeply saddened by the methods you have chosen and your on-going reluctance to recognize that this process is way out of line for the potential that it represents and for the possible legal influence you might have in these matters. What has happened to you that you feel that this Corsair business is so important that you would expose yourself in this manner? Come on, Ian... put it aside and move on with some kind of dignity. I'll be the first guy to support your open honesty in the matter and to wish you well as you move on down the path of your own interests. Chris Ostlind Lunada Design www.lunadadesign.com Link to post Share on other sites
sailsd 2 Posted November 3, 2008 Share Posted November 3, 2008 I like Ian's posts. They say a lot about Ian and many have seen this. Ian's own post "or to not notify owners that a serious defect may exist." says it all. Ian, are all builders to give warnings about problems that MAY exsist??? Do you give warnings about YOUR designs about problems that MAY exsist. As others have said, Ian you need to get over your long ago split from Corsair and realise that Corsair can, and has, done just fine without you. Link to post Share on other sites
THOR 39 Posted November 3, 2008 Share Posted November 3, 2008 this is all very sad .... Ian please take this personal stuff offline. I might suggest the edit function to delete these posts ... Its bad enough that you do the same stuff on the Fboat/Corsair built Yahoo site. thor proud owner of a Corsair built 28 R Link to post Share on other sites
ianlf 1 Posted November 3, 2008 Share Posted November 3, 2008 I like Ian's posts. They say a lot about Ian and many have seen this. Ian's own post "or to not notify owners that a serious defect may exist." says it all. Ian, are all builders to give warnings about problems that MAY exsist??? Do you give warnings about YOUR designs about problems that MAY exsist. Sure do give warnings: http://www.f-boat.com/owners/index.html What is so difficult about this - nobody is perfect, everybody makes mistakes, the problem only comes when they try to hide them. This is really amazing. Do you critics really think that having inspected an C36 that failed, and knowing what I know about its structure, and knowing that there could be somebody setting off across an ocean in one tomorrow, a boat with my folding system on it, where the crew may have no idea that it could be structurally suspect, and it is looking like the manufacturer has not warned them, that I should just shut up. Amazing. One even wrote what looks like a 5 page essay on why I should not care. Amazing, and that is really sad. I guess you critics would have also been scandalized and supported Ford back in the seventies when all those Ford Pintos were catching fire, and someone who knew a problem existed went public to warn about it, while the manufacturer was determined to ignore it. http://www.savive.com/casestudy/fordpinto.html Interesting what Lee Iacocca had to say about clamming up. I have tried to get this resolved offline and privately, four times, but without success, and had to cringe every time I heard about another C36 going offshore. Going public was the final option. Ian Farrier Farrier Marine (NZ) Ltd Farrier Marine, Inc Link to post Share on other sites
Triceratops 1 Posted November 3, 2008 Share Posted November 3, 2008 What were your safety concerns with the C36 and what were the crews safety concerns. Mr Farrier seems to be making an issue out of this and Corsair dont want to comment.Did you see the C36 problems or speak to the owners / crew of boats concerned or the one you had the opportunity to sail on. What broke and needed reinforcing on your 31. My concerns were with in the area of the folding mech. At the time I was invited several C36 boats had issues including delamination near the folding mechs. I believe this is the major area that Ian is concerned with, but can't attest to that. As far as my F31R, the problem was in the mast and that it lacked reinforcements of the shroud attachment points. Simple fix with one week down time and Ian was there to help me. Tri Link to post Share on other sites
Y-Bar 0 Posted November 3, 2008 Share Posted November 3, 2008 What were your safety concerns with the C36 and what were the crews safety concerns. Mr Farrier seems to be making an issue out of this and Corsair dont want to comment.Did you see the C36 problems or speak to the owners / crew of boats concerned or the one you had the opportunity to sail on. What broke and needed reinforcing on your 31. My concerns were with in the area of the folding mech. At the time I was invited several C36 boats had issues including delamination near the folding mechs. I believe this is the major area that Ian is concerned with, but can't attest to that. As far as my F31R, the problem was in the mast and that it lacked reinforcements of the shroud attachment points. Simple fix with one week down time and Ian was there to help me. Tri Cheers Thanks for the honest response. Link to post Share on other sites
GMT 7 Posted November 3, 2008 Share Posted November 3, 2008 Ian, You have already thrown Corsair and owners of the C36/37 under the bus with your twisted story, so now you claim you are out to protect the rest of us. I don't want or need your potection. You have already proven yourself to be less than honest and I don't believe you are advancing any interest other than your own. I learned a bit about you at the Annapolis show when you answered my question of how much the boat weighed. You mentioned one number and then when I asked the builder who was also aboard the same question, he mentioned another number that was 1000 lbs higher. A 1000 lb difference!! So who was telling the truth Ian, you or John? Don't tell me to go look at your website, just answer honestly: How much does the F32RX that was at the show weigh? How much did that boat cost? Did a C31 with dinghy on the tramps (and full tanks BTW) sail right over the top of you and on past in about 7-12 knots of breeze? Oh and Ian, tell us one other thing? If I buy an F32RX from you and Corsair queries you about its teething problems (which have been addressed), do you plan to respond to them (about my boat and circumstances without my permission)? Link to post Share on other sites
teamvmg 105 Posted November 3, 2008 Share Posted November 3, 2008 GMT The F32 is not a production boat, farrier will sell the plans/rights to build to you, but you have to commission a builder or build it yourself. I am such a builder and his back-up is faultless. the F32 at the show,as I understand it, only received its rig at the last minute and was only just ready in time for the show, so any performance criticism at this date is pretty unfair wouldn't you say? As for cost, that question has been asked a lot, but it is the owners right to keep that between himself and the builder if he wants. I guess that a 32 could be built to any weight and it would be outside the control of the designer. i do know that one has been weighed at 1300kg which is impressive. Paul Link to post Share on other sites
GMT 7 Posted November 3, 2008 Share Posted November 3, 2008 Thank you Paul. I am well aware of exactly what the F32RX is. I am wondering why Ian is so keen to ask question but can't seem to answer any honestly. As I said, I learned a bit about Ian at the Annapolis show when he answered my question of how much the boat weighed. He answered with one number and then when I asked the builder (John) who was also aboard the same question, he mentioned another number that was 1000 lbs higher. A 1000 lb difference!! So who was telling the truth Ian or John? I am just wondering if Ian can answer honestly: How much does the F32RX that was at the show weigh? How much did that boat cost? And Paul, Ian has made clear that there is nothing secret. Indeed he thinks Corsair should answer him about his twisted version of issues with a boat that Ian has absolutely no stake in. He is not the owner, or the owner's representative, indeed he is just somebody trying to tear down a competitor. Did a C31 with dinghy on the tramps (and full tanks BTW) sail right over the top of you and on past in about 7-12 knots of breeze? And certainly Ian could tell us if the F32RX performance was not up to his expectations and if so why. It just seems like what we have here is a case of the pot calling the kettle black. If Mr. Farrier is so keen to throw stone he should expect to get a few thrown back his way. Especially since he can't answer a simple straight-forward question about boat weight honestly. Link to post Share on other sites
THOR 39 Posted November 3, 2008 Share Posted November 3, 2008 I understand that the boat at the show is upwards of 400 000 dlr.... all kinds of excuses why it is that expensive.... Than there is a statement that the owners helped with labour intensive chores .... another statement that the owner stopped counting at 400 grand ..... in other words most likely quite a bit MORE than 400 grand .... looks like Lombardi who has built the boat is indeed not making any shortcuts ....that seems to be the thread with all farrier boats .. They seem to be very affordable until you have a good builder make an effort.... Than you have pricequotes for a F 22 upwards of 65000 grand or 33 in the 350000 and upwards range.... of course you can buy plans ,,,just to find out that the beams need to be bought from farrier ( F 22 ) and the list goes on and on Ian keep your nose out of Corsair business please....... concentrate on your own stuff and instead of dividing the multi hull community do something positive to grow the pie instead thor Link to post Share on other sites
Bull Gator 1,957 Posted November 3, 2008 Share Posted November 3, 2008 Thank you Paul. I am well aware of exactly what the F32RX is. I am wondering why Ian is so keen to ask question but can't seem to answer any honestly. As I said, I learned a bit about Ian at the Annapolis show when he answered my question of how much the boat weighed. He answered with one number and then when I asked the builder (John) who was also aboard the same question, he mentioned another number that was 1000 lbs higher. A 1000 lb difference!! So who was telling the truth Ian or John? I am just wondering if Ian can answer honestly: How much does the F32RX that was at the show weigh? How much did that boat cost? And Paul, Ian has made clear that there is nothing secret. Indeed he thinks Corsair should answer him about his twisted version of issues with a boat that Ian has absolutely no stake in. He is not the owner, or the owner's representative, indeed he is just somebody trying to tear down a competitor. Did a C31 with dinghy on the tramps (and full tanks BTW) sail right over the top of you and on past in about 7-12 knots of breeze? And certainly Ian could tell us if the F32RX performance was not up to his expectations and if so why. It just seems like what we have here is a case of the pot calling the kettle black. If Mr. Farrier is so keen to throw stone he should expect to get a few thrown back his way. Especially since he can't answer a simple straight-forward question about boat weight honestly. He answered your question - the F32RX when set up equally is faster than the F31. I'd imagine the very well built boats would be a lot lighter and faster. Are you retarded? Link to post Share on other sites
FlyingCircus 0 Posted November 3, 2008 Share Posted November 3, 2008 Thank you Paul. I am well aware of exactly what the F32RX is. I am wondering why Ian is so keen to ask question but can't seem to answer any honestly. As I said, I learned a bit about Ian at the Annapolis show when he answered my question of how much the boat weighed. He answered with one number and then when I asked the builder (John) who was also aboard the same question, he mentioned another number that was 1000 lbs higher. A 1000 lb difference!! So who was telling the truth Ian or John? I am just wondering if Ian can answer honestly: How much does the F32RX that was at the show weigh? How much did that boat cost? And Paul, Ian has made clear that there is nothing secret. Indeed he thinks Corsair should answer him about his twisted version of issues with a boat that Ian has absolutely no stake in. He is not the owner, or the owner's representative, indeed he is just somebody trying to tear down a competitor. Did a C31 with dinghy on the tramps (and full tanks BTW) sail right over the top of you and on past in about 7-12 knots of breeze? And certainly Ian could tell us if the F32RX performance was not up to his expectations and if so why. It just seems like what we have here is a case of the pot calling the kettle black. If Mr. Farrier is so keen to throw stone he should expect to get a few thrown back his way. Especially since he can't answer a simple straight-forward question about boat weight honestly. Everybody likes a good food fight it would seem. I think it is time to stick a fork in this one. I own a F31R by Corsair I love the boat woudl like to move up to a 33 or a 39 but the economy is going to have to get well first. My Corsair Dealer (Sales rep) here in Annapolis is wonderfully helpful in most matters, I have read Ian's stuff and met the man and I can not say anything bad about him or his designs. Corsair moved to SE Asia I would assume to decrease internal costs, boats did not get any cheaper to purchase.... Ian is in the land down under, would love to see a dealership here in the colonies. As to the food fight the reason I do not read the f-boat list anymore was because of the food fight between F, C, and L. Enought is enought please lets move on and make this community go forward and multiply. Here on the C-Bay the Multi hull class is growing in leaps and bounds, a few times we have fielded as many as 18 boats to the starting line, Tri's and cat from many builders, out side of the ratign system that is AFU it is a great time, and we are begining to be taken seriously mostly due to numbers. Ian, Lawson you want to sell more boats sponsor some of the races, support your customers and speak well of others. Hey I have an Idea Corsair, Farrier, take this out on the water and settle it. May be a new version of the America's Cup... Link to post Share on other sites
sailorbob 0 Posted November 3, 2008 Share Posted November 3, 2008 I have been a rabid proponent of Multihulls for the last 25 years, have watched the rise of multihull popularity in must part due to the innovations of Ian Farrier, and as one with 25 years in shipbuilding feel more than a little qualified to comment on this. I have never owned a Trimaran personally as I just like Cats better. First, this thread has been derailed from its original topic. This is not a bad thing because it brings to the public the efforts of Mr. Farrier to INFORM people of what could very well be life-threatening safety issues. We have a word for such individuals, "Whistleblowers", and they are protected from prosecution by law. Unlike Mrrs: Dixon, Ostlind GMT, Sailsd, and THOR, I do not see Mr. Farriers comments as mean spirited or denigrating, but find his tone professional and concerned on two counts; First, like it or not, the "Folding Tri" stigma is firmly attached to Mr. Farrier. He held the original patent, spent great personal effort promoting, and supporting this design. Second, because he has such an open known relationship with the folding design, the uninformed public assumes he is responsible for all similar or copied designs out there. As any Naval Architect will tell you, their reputation is EVERYTHING. The fact that he admits to sleepless nights worrying that he may have missed something that might endanger a crew is in my opinion very admirable. Mike many designers I deal with, all are proud of what they create and look to having their names attached to their designs. Many design houses, such as Sparkman Stevens put their corporate name to the design, but you can always identify the lead individual within that organization that was predominantly responsible. I have never come across a design house that withheld this information. With the extreme amount of engineering that goes into such a complete design operating over a wide range of loads, I am very concerned with Corsairs lack or transparency as to the level of engineering accomplished. A quick look of ACC syndicates reveals INDEPENDENT ENGINEERING reviews to insure the appropriate structural loads are addressed. When things go wrong, as when Young America broke in half, the Engineers were identified up front. The same held true for when the Farr VO boat's canting keel issues were identified, the Engineers were identified. Trusting the safety of your crew should not be blind acceptance to the promises of a company unless that company can assure you that they have a staff capable of such analysis. I don't think Corsair has answered that question. The old saying of "Don't Shoot the Messenger" should apply to Mr. Farrier. He's providing a warning to owners to check their boats for what he, as a QUALIFIED" individual identities as a weakness in Corsairs design. As for GMT, Sailsd, and THOR, I personally don't put any credibility to SA posted that hide behind avatars. At least Lawson Dixon and Chris Ostlind identify themselves in their personal info. And now can we please get back to the canting mast question...... There's a great bit of canting rig info on U-Tube (search Firebird, Catamaran) which has a pulley system for canting and rake. Talk about Spagetti... but it appears to work well. Bob Klein Link to post Share on other sites
GMT 7 Posted November 3, 2008 Share Posted November 3, 2008 Thank you Paul. I am well aware of exactly what the F32RX is. I am wondering why Ian is so keen to ask question but can't seem to answer any honestly. As I said, I learned a bit about Ian at the Annapolis show when he answered my question of how much the boat weighed. He answered with one number and then when I asked the builder (John) who was also aboard the same question, he mentioned another number that was 1000 lbs higher. A 1000 lb difference!! So who was telling the truth Ian or John? I am just wondering if Ian can answer honestly: How much does the F32RX that was at the show weigh? How much did that boat cost? And Paul, Ian has made clear that there is nothing secret. Indeed he thinks Corsair should answer him about his twisted version of issues with a boat that Ian has absolutely no stake in. He is not the owner, or the owner's representative, indeed he is just somebody trying to tear down a competitor. Did a C31 with dinghy on the tramps (and full tanks BTW) sail right over the top of you and on past in about 7-12 knots of breeze? And certainly Ian could tell us if the F32RX performance was not up to his expectations and if so why. It just seems like what we have here is a case of the pot calling the kettle black. If Mr. Farrier is so keen to throw stone he should expect to get a few thrown back his way. Especially since he can't answer a simple straight-forward question about boat weight honestly. He answered your question - the F32RX when set up equally is faster than the F31. I'd imagine the very well built boats would be a lot lighter and faster. Are you retarded? Are you free on bail? Look who is sticking up for Mr. Farrier. Birds of a feather! Uh, in case you missed it, on the water the F32RX seems to be a bit of a dog. Maybe because Mr. Farrier does not want to tell the truth about the weight. So Bull, do you know, since Mr. Farrier will not say; how much does the F32RX that was at the show actually weigh? All for a reported ~ $0.5 million. Link to post Share on other sites
FlyingCircus 0 Posted November 3, 2008 Share Posted November 3, 2008 Thank you Paul. I am well aware of exactly what the F32RX is. I am wondering why Ian is so keen to ask question but can't seem to answer any honestly. As I said, I learned a bit about Ian at the Annapolis show when he answered my question of how much the boat weighed. He answered with one number and then when I asked the builder (John) who was also aboard the same question, he mentioned another number that was 1000 lbs higher. A 1000 lb difference!! So who was telling the truth Ian or John? I am just wondering if Ian can answer honestly: How much does the F32RX that was at the show weigh? How much did that boat cost? And Paul, Ian has made clear that there is nothing secret. Indeed he thinks Corsair should answer him about his twisted version of issues with a boat that Ian has absolutely no stake in. He is not the owner, or the owner's representative, indeed he is just somebody trying to tear down a competitor. Did a C31 with dinghy on the tramps (and full tanks BTW) sail right over the top of you and on past in about 7-12 knots of breeze? And certainly Ian could tell us if the F32RX performance was not up to his expectations and if so why. It just seems like what we have here is a case of the pot calling the kettle black. If Mr. Farrier is so keen to throw stone he should expect to get a few thrown back his way. Especially since he can't answer a simple straight-forward question about boat weight honestly. He answered your question - the F32RX when set up equally is faster than the F31. I'd imagine the very well built boats would be a lot lighter and faster. Are you retarded? Are you free on bail? Look who is sticking up for Mr. Farrier. Birds of a feather! Uh, in case you missed it, on the water the F32RX seems to be a bit of a dog. Maybe because Mr. Farrier does not want to tell the truth about the weight. So Bull, do you know, since Mr. Farrier will not say; how much does the F32RX that was at the show actually weigh? All for a reported ~ $0.5 million. design is one thing... building is another. Looking at the boat the finish was great gotta have lots of filler in there. the equipment was quite over sized looked the furler on the screecher was huge, all this equates to weight. Ferrier did not build this boat a custom yacht builder did so go beat up the builder. Canting rig, I have asked this question several time on the f-boat lists only to hear nothing back.... From the corsair dealer I bought my boat from, it depends on how far you sail. Middle distance races would gain more from a canting rig than around the marks on a short course. I have looked at employing a system on Flying Circus, too many strings, and hydraulics.... too much weight for too little gain if that is the only mod. My 2 cents Link to post Share on other sites
FlyingCircus 0 Posted November 3, 2008 Share Posted November 3, 2008 All for a reported ~ $0.5 million. as they say, "what's it to you?" yeah, let's see how fast we can get back on topic: How much does 37RS cost delivered to the East Coast US? chirp...chirp...chirp... s. Hey Chirp chirp, I can give the sales guys number if your really interested. I know it will take about 9 months to get there and a bunch of boat bucks. Link to post Share on other sites
THOR 39 Posted November 3, 2008 Share Posted November 3, 2008 As for GMT, Sailsd, and THOR, I personally don't put any credibility to SA posted that hide behind avatars. At least Lawson Dixon and Chris Ostlind identify themselves in their personal info. Bob Klein Hi Bob Thor is actually my name actually its Thorsten but everybody calls me Thor nothing to hide here .. Kudos to Lawson and the rest of the Corsair Crew to keep taking the high road in this matters since years and of course also to have sponsored the 08 Corsair Nationals Link to post Share on other sites
PorVida 8 Posted November 3, 2008 Share Posted November 3, 2008 First, this thread has been derailed from its original topic. This is not a bad thing because it brings to the public the efforts of Mr. Farrier to INFORM people of what could very well be life-threatening safety issues. We have a word for such individuals, "Whistleblowers", and they are protected from prosecution by law. Bob, Thanks for the comments. In a perfect world, where humans comport themselves in a decent fashion, there might not be any reason to be witnessing this kind of interaction between Farrier and Corsair. Unfortunately, this is not a perfect world and so, we end up with incidents of this type. The Whistleblower situation that you describe would also be appropriate if it were not for the many years of negative interactions between Farrier and Corsair. Most of these have been openly visited in public by Mr. Farrier with pretty much no restrictions on his choice of words or the numbers of times that he has chosen to say them. This is not Whistleblowing as it is designated in the Federal Laws. This is disgruntled and frustrated ex business associate choosing to slam his former business relationship due to some kind of festering personal issue. Ian has attempted to disguise this fester with one of his classic, "I really care how this stuff is working for boaters" misdirects, but it really is about his feeling that he's been done wrong by Corsair and has to jump at each chance to get even. Farrier's overly focused sense of "obligation" to his, now "out of patent protection" invention is but one example of that kind of hyper-personal attachment. His connection to the device, as it applies to multihulls, is now out of his hands, both legally and functionally. His stated desire to continue to meddle in the use of this device by any future manufacturer is tantamount to a full-blown obsessive-compulsive disconnect and it casts a huge shadow on his previously powerful contribution. Does anyone here have overly meddlesome mother-in-law, who just won't let go of her baby girl... well after her marriage to you? If you do, then you know exactly what this is all about. The gentleman needs to get a grip as to his conclusion in the matter and move along smartly to another great contribution. He's been put on ignore by Corsair, because he is only going to continue to be a pain in the butt to them. If they take the time to answer his rants, then they will be wasting that much of their personnel work time just to simply answer the letters, much less feel obligated to perform as Ian would have them. An answer will also encourage Ian to pursue that line of attack and waste yet more time. Ian is not connected to Corsair any longer, his responsibility has ended long ago. I wouldn't be surprised at all, if he gets slapped with a very expensive lawsuit if he continues to meddle in the dealings of this company in this fashion. Where will the focus of his life be directed at that point when he's dealing with interrogatories and filings and depositions for a large part of his workweek? What Ian is doing here is ruining his own reputation, no matter how he feels about the business of Corsair's obligations. He is sending a message to the boating public that they simply are not equipped to handle the task of looking out for themselves and that only he, can make things right. He should have never taken this into a public forum. He should have never concerned himself with the business of how his former invention is being used. He should have simply invested the same amount of time in the pursuit of projects within his own sphere that can actually make his, as well as the boating public's, lives better... if that is what his real mission is here. Choosing not to do that and instead, grind away at a point that is more than fruitless, he blows that, "I'm a passionate guy who cares about your boats" thing, right into dust. It's really hard to take someone seriously when they continue to obsess... and obsessing is exactly what he's got going on here. This is a sad chapter in a career that has been a really fine example of how a guy can make his successful way in the sometimes-frustrating world of boat design. It's not too late to make this better. He only need drop this ugly stuff that has given him obvious fits, recognize that he's doing more harm than good and get things back on track. Time will take care of the rest. Failing that, he's going somewhere that I'd, personally, prefer that he not visit. Chris Ostlind Link to post Share on other sites
GMT 7 Posted November 3, 2008 Share Posted November 3, 2008 design is one thing... building is another. Looking at the boat the finish was great gotta have lots of filler in there. the equipment was quite over sized looked the furler on the screecher was huge, all this equates to weight. Ferrier did not build this boat a custom yacht builder did so go beat up the builder. Canting rig, I have asked this question several time on the f-boat lists only to hear nothing back.... From the corsair dealer I bought my boat from, it depends on how far you sail. Middle distance races would gain more from a canting rig than around the marks on a short course. I have looked at employing a system on Flying Circus, too many strings, and hydraulics.... too much weight for too little gain if that is the only mod. My 2 cents Yes, but the F32RX was a Lombardi build and considering the approach/materials they used - and the $0.5 million spent - this should not be a heavy boat. But all I am really wondering is why the guy (Mr. Farrier) that is claiming the moral high ground can't seem to answer a direct question honestly. Why did the builder say the boat weighed 1000 lbs more than Mr. Farrier did? Maybe I misunderstood. I will give Mr. Farrier the benefit of the doubt even though I know exactly what I heard. But now Mr. Farrier, while continuing to throw stone after stone at Corsair over and over again, is not willing to answer the most basic question of what that boat actually weighs? Not theory. No hand waving. Just say at what weight the boat actually came in at from one of the best builers out there. Pretty simple question, no? All for a reported ~ $0.5 million. yeah, let's see how fast we can get back on topic: How much does 37RS cost delivered to the East Coast US? s. I have not looked at east Coast US prices but understand it can be had elsewhere for far less than the $0.5 million cost referenced for the F32RX. Link to post Share on other sites
REW 58 Posted November 3, 2008 Share Posted November 3, 2008 This is a long time war that has now shown up on this forum and I have always refrained from commenting, but as a very long time customer of Farrier and Corsair....here I go. I have owned 4 F boats since 1992, first an F-27, then in 1996 an F-31 built by Corsair, a 1999 F-31, and now my highly modified F-31, cheekee monkee. I first saw an F-27 in person at a boat show in 1989 and instantly knew that was what I wanted to own. The idea of going fast took me back to my hobie sailing days several years earlier, and an offshore capable boat that I could easily trailer sealed the deal. To this day I don't think any designer has quite figured out the combination of performance and convenience the way that Ian has. Based on my tastes and extensive experience there are a number of design elements that I would love to see, maybe a folding 35 foot version of Frances Joyons Idec with no wasted volume for cruising accomodations.....but I digress. My current boat doesn't count in the following comments because it has been thoroughly stirred (modified). The first three were built to Ians design specs and his direct involvement with Corsair came and went during that time and the ownership and management of corsair changed over that time. The important point is that I had design and production problems with all of the first three boats. The first 31 had a problem with the design of the hull/lower folding brackets and after a year of sailing the boat multiple cracks and separation of the hull deck join started to appear. I contacted corsair and was provided with a repair spec authored by Ian and due to a rather thin dealer/repair network sent off on my own to find a qualified individual to repair the boat. I couldn't find anyone to do it for the budget provided by corsair so after fighting about it for a while I found a retired guy with building skills and we did it together and it still cost about 700 more than Corsair was willing to pay. Subsequently this whole area on the 31 was redesigned by Ian to solve the inherent weakness. My second 31 (1999) had a couple of issues including the mast problem that Tri mentioned earlier (Corsair eventually sent a recall/repair kit to all owners). More noteably while racing in a Chicago Mac race in 2002 we heard a very loud crack below deck and were stunned to find the forward bulkhead separated from the hull from about 2" above the lower folding brackets to about 1 foot below them, and the hull was flexing about 1". This was more than a little scarey and we withdrew, and limped 25 miles back to Chicago. When I got home I e-mailed Ian and within 30 minutes got a repair advisory about this problem in PDF format. Ian informed me that this problem had occured several times and that he had advised the factory to send the advisory out to all owners, they had not done it (per corsair) because it seemed to be an isolated problem. They had in fact changed the build process on later models to Ians new specification. Neither side of the story mattered much to me as I had a broken boat that i wanted fixed. I went to a reputable Chicago repair facility to get a quote for repair and was given a $7000 estimate. Corsair objected to the amount, my insurance company declined to pay, and here I was with my busted boat. A good friend stepped in who is building an F-9 AX and offered to help me by dong the repair if I would just take him sailing. Corsair ended up paying about $2700 for what should have been aout a 4 to 5 K job and I spent a week going to my friends shop every afternoon to help with the project. At the end of it all a good friend became a great friend and I ended up ok because of his generosity. I'll skip my F-27 stories I bring this history up because I am a customer, a very good customer, and I CAN'T be wrong. I buy a product with the good faith that it is designed and built properly. Over the years I have experienced both design and manufacturing and manufacturer problems with my Farrier/Corsair products. It hasn't made me like the products any less, I'm pretty clearly still a raving fan, I am also a realist. Look at any boat manufacturing/engineering concern (j-boats, barry carroll, beneteau etc etc) and you'll find similar issues. R&D budgets are very limited, skilled labor hard to get, small market, precious little capital and even less ROI. In the case of Ian and Corsair there is plenty of crap to fill everyone's sandwich. The customer that ends up with a 3 or 4K bill doesn't care much who screwed it up, the concern is that it get fixed and the customer doesn't end up holding the bag. I'd like for Ian and Corsair to keep their fight between themselves and keep the focus on the customer. If ayoneone in the midwest needs a repair pro who really knows these boats PM me and I can get you hooked up. Ron White Cheekee Monkee Link to post Share on other sites
FlyingCircus 0 Posted November 3, 2008 Share Posted November 3, 2008 This is a long time war that has now shown up on this forum and I have always refrained from commenting, but as a very long time customer of Farrier and Corsair....here I go. I have owned 4 F boats since 1992, first an F-27, then in 1996 an F-31 built by Corsair, a 1999 F-31, and now my highly modified F-31, cheekee monkee. I first saw an F-27 in person at a boat show in 1989 and instantly knew that was what I wanted to own. The idea of going fast took me back to my hobie sailing days several years earlier, and an offshore capable boat that I could easily trailer sealed the deal. To this day I don't think any designer has quite figured out the combination of performance and convenience the way that Ian has. Based on my tastes and extensive experience there are a number of design elements that I would love to see, maybe a folding 35 foot version of Frances Joyons Idec with no wasted volume for cruising accomodations.....but I digress. My current boat doesn't count in the following comments because it has been thoroughly stirred (modified). The first three were built to Ians design specs and his direct involvement with Corsair came and went during that time and the ownership and management of corsair changed over that time. The important point is that I had design and production problems with all of the first three boats. The first 31 had a problem with the design of the hull/lower folding brackets and after a year of sailing the boat multiple cracks and separation of the hull deck join started to appear. I contacted corsair and was provided with a repair spec authored by Ian and due to a rather thin dealer/repair network sent off on my own to find a qualified individual to repair the boat. I couldn't find anyone to do it for the budget provided by corsair so after fighting about it for a while I found a retired guy with building skills and we did it together and it still cost about 700 more than Corsair was willing to pay. Subsequently this whole area on the 31 was redesigned by Ian to solve the inherent weakness. My second 31 (1999) had a couple of issues including the mast problem that Tri mentioned earlier (Corsair eventually sent a recall/repair kit to all owners). More noteably while racing in a Chicago Mac race in 2002 we heard a very loud crack below deck and were stunned to find the forward bulkhead separated from the hull from about 2" above the lower folding brackets to about 1 foot below them, and the hull was flexing about 1". This was more than a little scarey and we withdrew, and limped 25 miles back to Chicago. When I got home I e-mailed Ian and within 30 minutes got a repair advisory about this problem in PDF format. Ian informed me that this problem had occured several times and that he had advised the factory to send the advisory out to all owners, they had not done it (per corsair) because it seemed to be an isolated problem. They had in fact changed the build process on later models to Ians new specification. Neither side of the story mattered much to me as I had a broken boat that i wanted fixed. I went to a reputable Chicago repair facility to get a quote for repair and was given a $7000 estimate. Corsair objected to the amount, my insurance company declined to pay, and here I was with my busted boat. A good friend stepped in who is building an F-9 AX and offered to help me by dong the repair if I would just take him sailing. Corsair ended up paying about $2700 for what should have been aout a 4 to 5 K job and I spent a week going to my friends shop every afternoon to help with the project. At the end of it all a good friend became a great friend and I ended up ok because of his generosity. I'll skip my F-27 stories I bring this history up because I am a customer, a very good customer, and I CAN'T be wrong. I buy a product with the good faith that it is designed and built properly. Over the years I have experienced both design and manufacturing and manufacturer problems with my Farrier/Corsair products. It hasn't made me like the products any less, I'm pretty clearly still a raving fan, I am also a realist. Look at any boat manufacturing/engineering concern (j-boats, barry carroll, beneteau etc etc) and you'll find similar issues. R&D budgets are very limited, skilled labor hard to get, small market, precious little capital and even less ROI. In the case of Ian and Corsair there is plenty of crap to fill everyone's sandwich. The customer that ends up with a 3 or 4K bill doesn't care much who screwed it up, the concern is that it get fixed and the customer doesn't end up holding the bag. I'd like for Ian and Corsair to keep their fight between themselves and keep the focus on the customer. If ayoneone in the midwest needs a repair pro who really knows these boats PM me and I can get you hooked up. Ron White Cheekee Monkee Bravo RW. Link to post Share on other sites
THOR 39 Posted November 3, 2008 Share Posted November 3, 2008 Thanks RW Link to post Share on other sites
PorVida 8 Posted November 3, 2008 Share Posted November 3, 2008 chris, please take your patronizing shit somewhere else. Ahhh, Geeez, Solo.... touched a nerve did I? If as you say, you ARE capable of making your own decision, then my opinions shouldn't matter to you, should they? Since they do and you've gone out of your way to post, then they have obviously gotten to a place which you feel is your comfy zone. If you read the postings carefully, you'll see that I have had a great deal of respect for the guy... until he drops trow and starts to pee in public and then I feel sorry for what he is doing. So, why not offer-up your opinion on the matter that has been splashed out there by Ian's posts. You have the right to spew at me, yet you wish to keep me from the same. Pretty damned hypocritical, eh? Perhaps you feel it's OK to go traipsing around the landscape minding other people's business when you have long ago been disassociated from the business relationship. Perhaps you think it's just dandy to start telling someone who is in business producing a product on which you ONCE HAD a patent, now long since expired? That's exactly the behavior that gets a guy arrested for stalking that gorgeous gal he lost to another suitor. Are you in the that field of play, Solo? A stalker who thinks it's just his natural born duty to go tilting at windmills, making the world a better place all by yourself? Are you a Bible Banger who sneaks around peeking in people's windows, writing down the names of those committing sins? Come on, Bro.. that's not a healthy enterprise. Stiffen-up. You can do better. Link to post Share on other sites
Dorado 713 Posted November 3, 2008 Share Posted November 3, 2008 REW Excellent post. Hey, Didn't I see you on TV Link to post Share on other sites
PorVida 8 Posted November 3, 2008 Share Posted November 3, 2008 I'd like for Ian and Corsair to keep their fight between themselves and keep the focus on the customer. Ron White Cheekee Monkee I'd like that too, Ron. I'll refrain from any further postings on the matter. Chris Link to post Share on other sites
GMT 7 Posted November 3, 2008 Share Posted November 3, 2008 I have not looked at east Coast US prices but understand it can be had elsewhere for far less than the $0.5 million cost referenced for the F32RX. wow, that's sum deep knowledge right there. s. Its "some" and seeing how I am not in the employ of Corsair, and I don't have any interest in a East Coast US based C37, I really can't help you with your rather pointless question. But since you seem such a nice fellow, generic pricing is on the web and a discussion with any dealer would get you a price (guessing around USD $299,000 tricked-out based on past interactions). Now could you be a good lad and go find out what the F32RX at the Annapolis show actually weighs? The designer does not seem to want anyone to know. Big secret. Hush, hush and all that. Till tomorrow then, GMT Link to post Share on other sites
ianlf 1 Posted November 3, 2008 Share Posted November 3, 2008 I learned a bit about you at the Annapolis show when you answered my question of how much the boat weighed. You mentioned one number and then when I asked the builder who was also aboard the same question, he mentioned another number that was 1000 lbs higher. A 1000 lb difference!! So who was telling the truth Ian, you or John? Don't tell me to go look at your website, just answer honestly: How much does the F32RX that was at the show weigh? How much did that boat cost? Did a C31 with dinghy on the tramps (and full tanks BTW) sail right over the top of you and on past in about 7-12 knots of breeze? If I buy an F32RX from you and Corsair queries you about its teething problems (which have been addressed), do you plan to respond to them (about my boat and circumstances without my permission)? I have no actual weigh bridge figure for how much the F-32RX at the show weighed as it had never been weighed. The figure of 5000lbs came from what a crane driver estimated, which can have a significant margin of error, and I felt it was too high from what I could see. My estimate of 4000lbs came from where the boat was actually floating on its waterline, which I think can be quite accurate, and waterline can be seen at: http://www.f-boat.com/pages/News2/F-32RXAnnapolis.html Note how high the transom floats - compare that to your C31. Weight also depends on what weight - the bare weight, the weight with all sailing gear, or the full loaded weight with all crew and stores? This definition has been covered many times on the F-boat forum. Also depends on degree and type of fitout - the show boat had all stainless steel bench tops for instance, and these are not known for their lightness. I actually think its bare weight was probably around 3500lbs. What I can definitely tell you is that the four F-32 beams, as made by Farrier Marine, are around 100lbs lighter than the C31 beams, the all composite carbon rudder is around 20 - 30 lbs lighter, and the F-32RX does not have 400lbs or so of gelcoat as does the C31. Hence an F-32 can weigh as little as 2800lbs, as per the Italian F-32. Cost of the F-32RX at the show had not been totaled up, but was well over $400,000. Carbon mast and sails alone were top of the line at $70,000 alone. However, this was a custom 'one off' top of the line boat, and these can get expensive. One could also build an F-31/F-9 to the same price level if you wish. You can also buy an all epoxy (no gelcoat) production level F-32 from Melvest Marine from $133,000, and you will be hearing more about these 'state of the art' boats very soon. I have no idea if a C31 sailed over the top of the F-32RX as I was not there. But such a thing is certainly possible, as the C31 is also a fast boat(being basically one of my designs) and it depends on who is steering, if the boat is properly setup and has been properly tuned. If I had setup and was sailing the F-32RX you would not have stood a chance. If you buy an F-32RX from me and Corsair queries me about its teething problems, I would be very happy to respond, and publicly too. Any teething problems would have been promptly addressed, and every owner and plan buyer would have been immediately notified of any such problems, and advised on how to avoid or solve them. Do the job right, and there's no reason to hide anything. You can even see a list of all the important issues of the past on my web site at: http://www.f-boat.com/owners/index.html Since the F-32s introduction I have also sent out well over 30 emailed updates to all F-32 builders, covering changes, improvements, and any glitches found, and how to solve them. Isn't that how it should be? Now, do you think you can get Corsair to answer those two simple but much more important questions on whether they advised all C36 owners on the structural problems, and who was responsible for designing it and the C37? These are serious safety issues. Ian Farrier Farrier Marine (NZ) Ltd Farrier Marine, Inc Link to post Share on other sites
ianlf 1 Posted November 3, 2008 Share Posted November 3, 2008 My second 31 (1999) had a couple of issues including the mast problem that Tri mentioned earlier (Corsair eventually sent a recall/repair kit to all owners). More noteably while racing in a Chicago Mac race in 2002 we heard a very loud crack below deck and were stunned to find the forward bulkhead separated from the hull from about 2" above the lower folding brackets to about 1 foot below them, and the hull was flexing about 1". This was more than a little scarey and we withdrew, and limped 25 miles back to Chicago. When I got home I e-mailed Ian and within 30 minutes got a repair advisory about this problem in PDF format. Ian informed me that this problem had occured several times and that he had advised the factory to send the advisory out to all owners, they had not done it (per corsair) because it seemed to be an isolated problem. Thanks for bringing that up as it is a good chance to once again publicly warn about the above failure. The first such bulkhead delamination happened to an early F-31 delivered (in Holland) and I immediately flew there to check it out. It was very strange, as there was no logical cause that I could figure, other than the bulkhead tape looked a bit thin, but the F31 is just as strong in this area as the F-27, which had never had such a problem. The float bow showed evidence of a collision, but the owner said this happened because he was in such a hurry to get back to the dock after the failure and I took him at his word. So we repaired his boat, and strengthened all subsequent F-31s in this area just in case, to where it should have been bullet proof. But then the exact same failure mode was duplicated a couple of years later, by a skipper who reported that he had hit a sandbank at high speed with a float bow on the side of the failure. Not a mark on the bow, but the collision was bad enough to throw crew off the boat. This generates a failure mode of a beam bulkhead delamination, coupled with the beam bolt pad being pulled up, even right out. This was interesting, and after some more thought I realized that the bow wire diagonal brace was actually turning a float bow collision into a high impact load inwards on the forward beam and acting on the beam bulkhead area to where it can delaminate the bulkhead, and rip out the bolt pad, or badly crack the area around it. The bow diagonal brace was there to stiffen the boats, and to prevent the whole float and beam assembly from being forced aft in a float bow collision, which could wreck both beams, and rip the folding strut brackets out of the hull, and probably write off the boat. It worked as planned, and using such a diagonal brace meant the damage was more limited, but it was still disconcerting. I then told Corsair to remove the bow diagonal brace and replace it with one further aft and acting on the aft beam, which has a much better angle and any impact load will be much lower. So if you still have those bow wire bow braces, then I recommend they be removed and replaced by one further aft and acting on the aft beam at a much better angle. I also changed the laminate in the F-31 bows to weaken them slightly so that they would crush more, and help absorb any impact. One should check the boat carefully after any such a float bow collision, as the damage mode can be initiated, and the bulkhead could just delaminate later without warning. The signs to look out for are covered in my Beam and Folding System Care Bulletin on my Owners page, link already given earlier. The most obvious sign of such a collision, and an indicator of possible problems to come are hairline cracks radiating out from under the forward beam bolt pad (the stainess steel bolt pad that the bolt goes into). If you see these, then take a careful look for any damage in the beam bulkhead hull tape. I would point out that not all such delaminations have been due to this, but this is the most common cause. The above problem was fixed promptly, nothing was kept secret, and warnings were posted on my web site, which is how it should be. This matter was also warned about publicly several times, one being in my Newsletter 58 (page 4) which was sent out to every F-9 and F-31 owner that I knew of, and everyone else on my mailing list. http://www.f-boat.com/pages/newsletters/newsletter58.html I also made sure the matter was covered on Corsair's web site, but unfortunately all such advisories were taken off around 6 years ago. I have asked them repeatedly and privately to restore these, the most recently around 3 months ago, but nothing has happened. No doubt I will again get flak for saying this, but it is just reporting a fact, and again it is a matter of safety, and keeping owners informed. If you think such things should be kept secret then no doubt you will have your say. Ian Farrier Farrier Marine (NZ) Ltd Farrier Marine, Inc Link to post Share on other sites
Triceratops 1 Posted November 3, 2008 Share Posted November 3, 2008 REW once again you are spot on! I for one don't like the crap being spun here, but Ian has never done me wrong and I will continue to sail a boat designed by him and built by Corsair. Tri Link to post Share on other sites
Tucky 35 Posted November 4, 2008 Share Posted November 4, 2008 My second 31 (1999) had a couple of issues including the mast problem that Tri mentioned earlier (Corsair eventually sent a recall/repair kit to all owners). More noteably while racing in a Chicago Mac race in 2002 we heard a very loud crack below deck and were stunned to find the forward bulkhead separated from the hull from about 2" above the lower folding brackets to about 1 foot below them, and the hull was flexing about 1". This was more than a little scarey and we withdrew, and limped 25 miles back to Chicago. When I got home I e-mailed Ian and within 30 minutes got a repair advisory about this problem in PDF format. Ian informed me that this problem had occured several times and that he had advised the factory to send the advisory out to all owners, they had not done it (per corsair) because it seemed to be an isolated problem. They had in fact changed the build process on later models to Ians new specification. Neither side of the story mattered much to me as I had a broken boat that i wanted fixed. I went to a reputable Chicago repair facility to get a quote for repair and was given a $7000 estimate. Corsair objected to the amount, my insurance company declined to pay, and here I was with my busted boat. A good friend stepped in who is building an F-9 AX and offered to help me by dong the repair if I would just take him sailing. Corsair ended up paying about $2700 for what should have been aout a 4 to 5 K job and I spent a week going to my friends shop every afternoon to help with the project. At the end of it all a good friend became a great friend and I ended up ok because of his generosity. Hey, I resemble that boat. Well I own it at least, and I'm happy. Thanks Ron. Link to post Share on other sites
nomoreims 0 Posted November 5, 2008 Share Posted November 5, 2008 I have not seen any comments from Corsair 36 owners on this thread, so I just wanted share my view on the "rig-issue". I have been actively racing and cruising my C36 for two years and have never felt any worries about built quality or the integrity of the rig or beams. So far we have been sailing with the boat in seriously rough conditions from the coast of Germany to Finland and Sweden. At one particular point the shackle to the main ripped while flying a 108 m2 gennaker in 30 knots of wind (we had been going well over 20 knots) leaving the mast with no support all all from the main. From what I understand this type of situation is exactly what caused earlier mast failures. On our boat from 2004, Corsair claims that the problem has been fixed. I certainly believe them! Link to post Share on other sites
sailorbob 0 Posted November 5, 2008 Share Posted November 5, 2008 I'm sure your nickname's Thor but your personal info is blank.... That was my point. Link to post Share on other sites
lakepee 0 Posted November 6, 2008 Share Posted November 6, 2008 Its "some" and seeing how I am not in the employ of Corsair, and I don't have any interest in a East Coast US based C37, I really can't help you with your rather pointless question. But since you seem such a nice fellow, generic pricing is on the web and a discussion with any dealer would get you a price (guessing around USD $299,000 tricked-out based on past interactions). Now could you be a good lad and go find out what the F32RX at the Annapolis show actually weighs? The designer does not seem to want anyone to know. Big secret. Hush, hush and all that. Till tomorrow then, GMT The base price of a F37RS is $329000. Thats a bare bones boat with no sails in Ho Chi Min City, as of October 31 2008. By the time you add sails and options to "trick it out" and get it to the USA, you would up that by $100000 easy for a "tricked out" price of $429000 http://www.corsairmarine.com/UserFiles/Ima...pec_sheet09.pdf So i guess that $400000+ for a top quality Lombardi built F32 is a bargain considering the build quality and the incoropration of all of Ians innovations since parting with Corsair. I hardly feel that your claim to have sailed over the f32 with a dingy on your deck proves anything at all, other than that you sailed over a brand new untuned boat with an unkown driver (the biggest performance factor) who was likely not concerned about your existance. Mike Parsons F242 Litttlewing Link to post Share on other sites
Bob Gleason 0 Posted November 6, 2008 Share Posted November 6, 2008 Mike. I have spent time on both boats; the 32 and the 37. The 37 is a much bigger boat! The 32 feels more like a 31 to me than a 37. The 31 is less than a half of the price of the 32 shown at the Annapolis BS. In looking at the pricing of the 37 you should be comparing apples to apples. The 37 at 329K is an all carbon boat with carbon skins and carbon interior furniture. The standard 37 for 2009 is 266K not 329K and is a better comparison to the Lombardi built boat. The 2008 pricing is still available and the pricing there is 250K for the standard boat and 316K for the carbon boat. You and I both know that these are both going to be fast boats. The bigger boat however will generally be a faster boat in big seas and big winds and a larger boat is almost always more comfortable offshore. Bob Link to post Share on other sites
Theoretic 0 Posted November 6, 2008 Share Posted November 6, 2008 Thanks for bringing that up as it is a good chance to once again publicly warn about the above failure. The first such bulkhead delamination happened to an early F-31 delivered (in Holland) and I immediately flew there to check it out. It was very strange, as there was no logical cause that I could figure, other than the bulkhead tape looked a bit thin, but the F31 is just as strong in this area as the F-27, which had never had such a problem. The float bow showed evidence of a collision, but the owner said this happened because he was in such a hurry to get back to the dock after the failure and I took him at his word. So we repaired his boat, and strengthened all subsequent F-31s in this area just in case, to where it should have been bullet proof. But then the exact same failure mode was duplicated a couple of years later, by a skipper who reported that he had hit a sandbank at high speed with a float bow on the side of the failure. Not a mark on the bow, but the collision was bad enough to throw crew off the boat. This generates a failure mode of a beam bulkhead delamination, coupled with the beam bolt pad being pulled up, even right out. This was interesting, and after some more thought I realized that the bow wire diagonal brace was actually turning a float bow collision into a high impact load inwards on the forward beam and acting on the beam bulkhead area to where it can delaminate the bulkhead, and rip out the bolt pad, or badly crack the area around it. ... I would point out that not all such delaminations have been due to this, but this is the most common cause. ... No doubt I will again get flak for saying this, but it is just reporting a fact, and again it is a matter of safety, and keeping owners informed. If you think such things should be kept secret then no doubt you will have your say. Ian Farrier So which was really the result of the problem (collision) then ? 1) Bulkhead delamination: which means either too small bond area or glue used not having enough strength but join tape being thin having nothing to do with it OR 2) fibres of the join tape cracking : meaning the bulkhead join tape was too thin but nothing wrong with bond area or quality of glue or gluing job . OR 3) fibres of the bulkhead (the base laminate) cracking just outside of the jointape ? The text of yours quoted above in bold type indicate both 1&2, which is self contradictory. Tape can't both break into pieces and delaminate at the very same incident, that's just impossible. Link to post Share on other sites
ianlf 1 Posted November 8, 2008 Share Posted November 8, 2008 So which was really the result of the problem (collision) then ? 1) Bulkhead delamination: which means either too small bond area or glue used not having enough strength but join tape being thin having nothing to do with it OR 2) fibres of the join tape cracking : meaning the bulkhead join tape was too thin but nothing wrong with bond area or quality of glue or gluing job . OR 3) fibres of the bulkhead (the base laminate) cracking just outside of the jointape ? The text of yours quoted above in bold type indicate both 1&2, which is self contradictory. Tape can't both break into pieces and delaminate at the very same incident, that's just impossible. The instances quoted were with two different boats, around two years apart, and while the tape appeared to be thinner than specified in the first instance, it had delaminated and did not shear. I did not say anywhere that tape had broken into pieces. Your concerns about a problem of 14 years ago are appreciated, but it was properly investigated, cause was established as usually collision related, a fix instigated, nothing was kept secret, and all owners were properly notified. Meanwhile, Corsair has still not said if any Advisory Bulletin was ever sent out to C36 owners, warning of the structural issues, and who was responsible for the C36/C37 design and engineering? Even more pertinent now, as unfortunately it appears another C36 has just had structural problems and was abandoned at sea. The rudder broke, which also happened on the Texas boat just prior to its beam failure, and the rudder also broke on another C36 heading for Bermuda last year, along with some other issues. Ian Farrier Farrier Marine (NZ) Ltd Farrier Marine, Inc Link to post Share on other sites
PorVida 8 Posted November 8, 2008 Share Posted November 8, 2008 And still, Dude... it's none of your business. As long as you find it appropriate to to dun the Corsair guys, others will find it appropriate to dun your busy-body interference. It's not your job. It's not your concern. It's not your responsibility. Ian, when are you going to let this crap go and get on with your life? Have you better things to do, or are you just sitting there spinning your wheels and looking for an opportunity to toss your sludge in the direction of Corsair? Geezus, what a waste of time for a guy of your accumulated position. Oh, I know, you'll have some trite and distracting comment to make with some vague point that is not of the discussion. Yada-yada... So be it... but the reality is that you just will not let this go, no matter how many times that you have been asked by really good people. You just will not to let it drop and get on with your personal business aside from this over the top behavior. You do have personal business to attend to, don't you? Keep this in mind. It's not me who is going out of my way to blast Corsair. That unique behavior belongs to you and you alone. Lots of folks want this over and done with in the public venue you have chosen and yet, you just keep on pumping your anger out there as if there is no tomorrow. Do you not have an obligation to your faithful customers and the folks who have formed a lasting and caring sense of respect for your work? Well, those people have asked that you take this elsewhere. Please give them their due moment of respect in return, Ian and let this stuff go. I'm truly sad that this has not ended and gone on its way to the bottom of the pile. The whole thing is like a slow spiral into the mud. Please stop. Enough damage has been done to both sides. Chris Ostlind Link to post Share on other sites
kbcH20 6 Posted November 8, 2008 Share Posted November 8, 2008 And still, Dude... it's none of your business. So, who's business is it? If there are issues with a design, or some common failures, and somebody knows about, I'd sure like for them to make it known before setting off offshore. Lorax just lost his boat - was he aware before setting sail that there had been cases of structural issues and rudders breaking? I'm personnally amazed that hull damage was done by a mainsheet being fouled. Is there somebody out there that is ok to relay this info, so Ian can just tell them to tell us so we can be informed and you can avoid being offended? Anybody who's been on various boards are aware of the conflict, but you seem to be making it your own personal mission to silence or "heal" Mr. Farrier. As you like to say to Ian - what business is it of yours if he wants to pursue issues he feels he has an interest in, whether he does or not? Why do we have to be continually subjected to you trying to play the indignent hero? Butt out and let him do what he feels he needs to do right or wrong. It's not your concern, it's not your responsibility. For the record - I love my Corsair, but if there are known issues I'd like to know about them, whether from Ian or anybody else. I fully support Corsair for building the boats, and Ian for supplying the designs that made Corsair possible. Link to post Share on other sites
nomoreims 0 Posted November 8, 2008 Share Posted November 8, 2008 This forum is lost at sea! I'm sticking to other communities populated by sailors... Link to post Share on other sites
Mysanne Throhppe 0 Posted November 8, 2008 Share Posted November 8, 2008 Fuck off newbie!! Link to post Share on other sites
FlyingCircus 0 Posted November 8, 2008 Share Posted November 8, 2008 Designer states the boats are not intended to be in the open ocean, and folk take them there any way. Not designers fault. You can warn people all you want, bottom line is People will do what they want regardless of the warnings or intended use. Ian, I think everyone has got the idea, that your big on safety. I also think that Corsair is going to build boats regardless of what you think or say. I love your stuff would love to see more of it being built here in the USA. I own a F31R love the boat it fast and easy to sail. Would love to get into a F33R..... Flying Circus F-31R #131 Port Tobacco MD Link to post Share on other sites
ianlf 1 Posted November 8, 2008 Share Posted November 8, 2008 And still, Dude... it's none of your business. This really is none of your business Mr. Ostlind, and isn't it about time you took your personal vendetta elsewhere, one that has gone on ever since I caught you trying to use a trademark too close to mine. As I told you then, just get out there, design and build your own boats, and develop your own reputation, like I did. It just takes a lot of work - don't try and hang onto someone else's coattails. I thought at the time that your attempt to use that trademark was just an honest mistake, but it appears you have achieved just about nothing since then, except try to attack me at every opportunity. It is starting to look like you were trying to do it the easy way, and now have a major grudge. Your only career seems to be as a forum groupie, offering advice to all and sundry, but, in reality, your only claim to any credibility or experience at present is that you once went for a ride on a large trimaran. I guess corporate responsibility also does not mean much to you. Lives could be being put at risk, and you want it all covered over and kept quiet. I sure would not want to buy one of your designs with such a 'don't care' and 'cover it up' attitude. There appears to be serious ongoing problems with the C36, and asking Corsair if it has done the necessary and right things is not 'dunning' them. If they have not done the right thing then they are 'dunning' themselves. It is very telling that even since this discussion commenced, an C36 had to be abandoned at sea from a structural failure. It is also my business because Corsair problems do affect me in a number of ways, one being requests for help from Corsair owners who have not had a response from Corsair. I always respond, but would prefer not to have to handle Corsair's backup work. Should Corsair unfortunately not prosper, then the backup afterwards will no doubt be left to me - the nameless designer(s) at Corsair are not going to hang around, or be found. So it is in my interests, and every Corsair owner's interests, that Corsair builds good boats, and supports them properly. Doing otherwise is letting their owners down, and any more problems are not going to help Corsair owner's insurance rates or resale values, nor probably mine, as they use my folding system, and my designs are associated with Corsair, like it or not. What is so hard about disclosing whether existing C36 owners have been warned about the problems, and telling us who designed the boat and their qualifications? I don't know of any other company in the world that would refuse to answer such basic requests. Corsair could have ended this at the beginning by simply stating that "yes, we have contacted every owner, informing them that there was some problems, and we provided details of what to watch out for, and what not to do." Instead, owners have had to contact me for such information. Ian Farrier Farrier Marine (NZ) Ltd Farrier Marine, Inc Link to post Share on other sites
Rajinder 1 Posted November 8, 2008 Share Posted November 8, 2008 Ian, I believe you already know who I am and I guess you can mark me down as yet another current owner and existing customer who wishes you would stop these attacks on Corsair. There is no group of C36 owners here (anywhere that I am aware of) attacking Corsair the way you are. A C36 owner I talked with was happy with their boat and how Corsair worked with him. That owner actually wished you would stop commenting and claims to have told you this directly. I don't know if that is true, if anything you have said is true, or if any of the rumors re your plans and boats are true. But I do know that the majority of Farrier AND Corsair customers seem really, really, happy (and mark me down as another one) and that speaking as a customer, all this thread does is turn me off. From what I can gather, REW's post sums up interactions with Corsair and Farrier nicely and its typical of most any boat builder I suspect. Its never going to be all peaches and cream in dealing with problems - especially if as an owners you push the boat to the edge - but equally, none of these boats appear to be the deathtraps you seem to be suggesting with the Pinto references. I am pretty sure I am pissing into the wind, but as a Farrier/Corsair customer I really wish you would stop. * If you think this is the way to get people to buy Farrier, you are mistaken. * If you think this how to help C36/37 owners, you are absolutely mistaken. * If you think is how to get people to not buy Corsair you may be right, but it says more about you than about them. You must know you are not helping the multihull cause, C36/37 owners, or your own interests with this vendetta. Just (disgusted by this shit) Link to post Share on other sites
Y-Bar 0 Posted November 8, 2008 Share Posted November 8, 2008 Designer states the boats are not intended to be in the open ocean, and folk take them there any way. Not designers fault. You can warn people all you want, bottom line is People will do what they want regardless of the warnings or intended use. Ian, I think everyone has got the idea, that your big on safety. I also think that Corsair is going to build boats regardless of what you think or say. I love your stuff would love to see more of it being built here in the USA. I own a F31R love the boat it fast and easy to sail. Would love to get into a F33R..... Flying Circus F-31R #131 Port Tobacco MD Are your saying that Corsair states that their 36ft tri is not intended to be in the open ocean. Sorry but I can't believe that a designer of a 36ft tri would state it is not suitable an open ocean / coastal sailing. If this is correct and anyone buys one they must live on a lake, have loads of money and no brains. Link to post Share on other sites
matthewsillifant 0 Posted November 12, 2008 Share Posted November 12, 2008 As a new entrant to multihulls etc etc, and not a naval architect, I was guided to this forum, and have to say I hope Corsair doesn't waste too much time with all this. Life is too short, no one is perfect, things go wrong, that's life!! I hope Mr Farrier finds something new to invent to keep his clearly 'active' brain engaged in more positive persuits. I always struggle to get new toilet tissue rolls to open without wasting the first few wraps because of that glue strip! This type of forum is quite destructive for people considering swapping from mono to multi. Most people who can afford a 'luxury' item and are serious, are over 21, have reasonable intelligence, and enjoy making their own minds up. Don't spoil the fun! Link to post Share on other sites
Y-Bar 0 Posted November 12, 2008 Share Posted November 12, 2008 As a new entrant to multihulls etc etc, and not a naval architect, I was guided to this forum, and have to say I hope Corsair doesn't waste too much time with all this. Life is too short, no one is perfect, things go wrong, that's life!! I hope Mr Farrier finds something new to invent to keep his clearly 'active' brain engaged in more positive persuits. I always struggle to get new toilet tissue rolls to open without wasting the first few wraps because of that glue strip! This type of forum is quite destructive for people considering swapping from mono to multi. Most people who can afford a 'luxury' item and are serious, are over 21, have reasonable intelligence, and enjoy making their own minds up. Don't spoil the fun! Coarsair should take all issues regarding breakages or failure very seriously. They have a position of responsibility and are leagally liable for the product they produce. If boats or lives are lost then they may be held accountable if their design or construction is at fault. Just the same as if a keel falls off a lead mine. Legal duty of care is a huge responsibility and it relies on designers and builders following up with their clients if a common fault or repetitive failure is found. Just like a car manufacturer has to inform customers. If they have a failure they recall and fix the product. Fail to do that and if you end up in court and the claimants lawyers will eat you for breakfast and shit you out at lunch. Ian has already has his say on the Corsair issue and seems that he is staying out of it now. I must say I was a bit astounded by his previous attacks on the Coarsair. But I havent seen anyone say that he hasnt backed up his product when previous issues have arisen and I sure they have. He obviously knows how important good design and his legal duty of care is. I find MA quite constructive. Keep reading and when you weed through the threads you will gain a lot of knowlege about multis. If you are a lead belly convert there's a lot to learn about these two and three hulled beasts. If you want to buy one you need to do thorough research and talk to people who have sailed them for a long time to ensure that you dont end up with a dog instead of a cat or tri. As you can see by the debate for the SA multihull one design there are a lot of opinions floating around out there. If you buy one make sure you know what youre getting by talking to owners, racers and builders of the particular type of craft you are interested in. Theres a lot of crusing cats in aprticular out there that might have all the bells a whistles but when the shit hits the fan you need a boat that preforms in all conditions not just double bunks, dual crappers and a TV. Good luck with your multi experience. At least if you are thinking about buying any type of multi you can start a thread here and you are sure to get constructive feedback and then you will know what you are getting yourself into. Link to post Share on other sites
mike.grp7 0 Posted November 13, 2008 Share Posted November 13, 2008 This type of forum is quite destructive for people considering swapping from mono to multi. Most people who can afford a 'luxury' item and are serious, are over 21, have reasonable intelligence, and enjoy making their own minds up. Don't spoil the fun! It seems all this strife could have been avoided by Corsair simply fronting up right at the beginning. Wouldn't clearing the air and putting things straight be the smart thing to do? No bashing, just some facts. Mike Link to post Share on other sites
www.f32.nl 0 Posted November 17, 2008 Share Posted November 17, 2008 his back-up is faultless. I Agree with you paul, any little mistake in the drawings is immediately reported by Ian multiple times. I guess that a 32 could be built to any weight and it would be outside the control of the designer. i do know that one has been weighed at 1300kg which is impressive. I asked the builder of the 1300Kg boat what he had weighed and he answered me it was the empty boat without mast rig and sails. I've weighed mine and its 1950Kg with holliday gear and everything else on board.(I think I can loose a lot of that for race trim) My guess is that a hand lay-up boat can't be much lighter then 1700Kg. I am an inexperienced multihull sailor but in the few races I sailed (1950Kg) I could keep up with f31's with code zero, with just main and Jib With regards, Tom www.f32.nl Link to post Share on other sites
ProaSailor 417 Posted November 17, 2008 Share Posted November 17, 2008 I have tried to get this resolved offline and privately, four times, but without success, and had to cringe every time I heard about another C36 going offshore. Going public was the final option. Ian Farrier Good on ya, Ian! Keep the lights on and the cockroaches will run for cover. Don't let the bastards wear you down. The insults I have read on this page are really stunning; those who have attacked you are the lowest of the low. Sadly, not uncommon among that part of the multihull crowd who believe that cheaper and faster and better boats will somehow be created by people who care less about safety than you do. Clearly, they've never known the burden of responsibility that a designer faces when his boats are used to cross oceans. Link to post Share on other sites
matthewsillifant 0 Posted November 17, 2008 Share Posted November 17, 2008 I have tried to get this resolved offline and privately, four times, but without success, and had to cringe every time I heard about another C36 going offshore. Going public was the final option. Ian Farrier Good on ya, Ian! Keep the lights on and the cockroaches will run for cover. Don't let the bastards wear you down. The insults I have read on this page are really stunning; those who have attacked you are the lowest of the low. Sadly, not uncommon among that part of the multihull crowd who believe that cheaper and faster and better boats will somehow be created by people who care less about safety than you do. Clearly, they've never known the burden of responsibility that a designer faces when his boats are used to cross oceans. I wish this Farrier chap would move on!! Or maybe he has opinions on The Global economy he'd like to share too? A handful of retards really know how to keep a subject going don't they? Or do you just feel important seeing your name pop up? Businesses develop, make new things, some work, some don't, any of you had a look at Ford recently. If you are so scared of dieing, may I suggest chess. Link to post Share on other sites
Y-Bar 0 Posted November 17, 2008 Share Posted November 17, 2008 I have tried to get this resolved offline and privately, four times, but without success, and had to cringe every time I heard about another C36 going offshore. Going public was the final option. Ian Farrier Good on ya, Ian! Keep the lights on and the cockroaches will run for cover. Don't let the bastards wear you down. The insults I have read on this page are really stunning; those who have attacked you are the lowest of the low. Sadly, not uncommon among that part of the multihull crowd who believe that cheaper and faster and better boats will somehow be created by people who care less about safety than you do. Clearly, they've never known the burden of responsibility that a designer faces when his boats are used to cross oceans. I wish this Farrier chap would move on!! Or maybe he has opinions on The Global economy he'd like to share too? A handful of retards really know how to keep a subject going don't they? Or do you just feel important seeing your name pop up? Businesses develop, make new things, some work, some don't, any of you had a look at Ford recently. If you are so scared of dieing, may I suggest chess. Are you for real. Being a noob I felt it would be nice to be polite and encourage your participation for your first post but if you havent got anything constructive to say, I have. Fuck Off Noob. You just dont get it do you. Seems that you are now one of the retards that keeps going on about Farrier. I suggest that you go buy a Ford and take up chess. If your not scared of dieing. Do us all a favour go buy a the tri mentioned and sail it around the world. Link to post Share on other sites
mike.grp7 0 Posted November 30, 2008 Share Posted November 30, 2008 This type of forum is quite destructive for people considering swapping from mono to multi. Most people who can afford a 'luxury' item and are serious, are over 21, have reasonable intelligence, and enjoy making their own minds up. Don't spoil the fun! It seems all this strife could have been avoided by Corsair simply fronting up right at the beginning. Wouldn't clearing the air and putting things straight be the smart thing to do? No bashing, just some facts. Mike It looks like Corsair has nothing further to say? Link to post Share on other sites
teamvmg 105 Posted November 30, 2008 Share Posted November 30, 2008 This type of forum is quite destructive for people considering swapping from mono to multi. Most people who can afford a 'luxury' item and are serious, are over 21, have reasonable intelligence, and enjoy making their own minds up. Don't spoil the fun! It seems all this strife could have been avoided by Corsair simply fronting up right at the beginning. Wouldn't clearing the air and putting things straight be the smart thing to do? No bashing, just some facts. Mike It looks like Corsair has nothing further to say? Isn't that the whole problem? Link to post Share on other sites
THOR 39 Posted November 30, 2008 Share Posted November 30, 2008 do? No bashing, just some facts. Mike It looks like Corsair has nothing further to say? Ok just because this thread is all the way on top I anwswer something otherwise I would have gladly let it die on the second page ... To answer your question, please read Corsair answers to this board. Corsair will not engage in fingerpointing and blame game. ..... period . I comment them for this attitude . Corsair has contacted all the 36 owners and have repaired what needed to be repaired and have no complaints form any owners ... They will not engage in a battle royale with Ian .... but rather inform the owners of their boats directly ... There is absolutely no sense to discuss things like this on a public board. If you read this entire thread there is absolutely nothing new what I said above May I again suggest that all that silly nonsense stop, as it is not doing ANYBODY any favours , especially nobody who owns a Farrier or Corsair. The newbies who come out of nowhere are trying to put oil on the flames .... FUCK OFF will ya .... lets hear something constructive from you instead .... We Multi owners are glad to help in any way Thor Link to post Share on other sites
Zonker 3,272 Posted November 30, 2008 Share Posted November 30, 2008 I'm with Ian on this one. Even though he doesn't have a business relationship with Corsair any longer, his reputation and name as a naval architect is very firmly established as the designer of his folding system. Boat builders that use a variant of his system do make it harder for him when a C boat has problems. I think he does have a bad history with Corsair changing his designs to save costs, sometimes without consulting him. If I was in his shoes I would still be PO'ed as well. And there is nothing wrong with an outside person calling a manufacturer for doing a bad job or not telling owners if a fault exists. Do you not recall the builders of Bavaria were subject to in these forums over the 35 keels? Or Carroll Marine boats for gel coats / build issues? Why not hold a builder's feet to the fire if they are doing a bad job or compromising safety of lives. As Ian says, he is very good about warning owners on his website about problems with his designs, and solutions to repair the problems. That's the responsible thing to do. And the weight of a one off boat (hell most production boats too), unless it has been weighed with a certified load cell,is mostly a matter of conjecture. Why blame Ian for not knowing it accurately? Link to post Share on other sites
Oxygen Mask 1 Posted November 30, 2008 Share Posted November 30, 2008 ....The Whistleblower situation that you describe would also be appropriate if it were not for the many years of negative interactions between Farrier and Corsair. Most of these have been openly visited in public by Mr. Farrier with pretty much no restrictions on his choice of words or the numbers of times that he has chosen to say them........ [/size]Chris Ostlind The 'years of negative interaction between Farrier and Corsair' are, according to Mr. Farrier, due to Corsair's refusal to stick to his QC guidelines and implementing manufacturing changes/shortcuts that make the boats heavier and weaker. The failures of certain boats and the huge variety in weights for production-built theoretically identical boats (not the mention the poor support from Corsair) would seem to bear that out. I personally appreciate knowing this. I've always found his willingness to speak up, be frank and yet civil about it refreshing. I don't see him bad mouthing anyone, he points out facts and asks very pertinent questions. In my mind it adds to his credibility, rather than 'ruining his own reputation.' I'd be more inclined to trust him than The Corporation with a proven negative track record for production quality and product support. His own webpages on the other hand point out every maintenance item, area to inspect and watch for, upgrade, repair, alteration etc that he is aware of for his own boats and those Corsairs he was involved with. When a long term weakness is identified, he designs a fix and puts the word out. I find this amazingly refreshing in today's "get the money and run" business world. Maybe he is obsessive. He's earned the right in my opinion. It would be different perhaps, if HIS name wasn’t so intertwined with the very identity of the Corsair boats. I'm not taking sides in this stupid argument, I take all the information and opinions I can get and make up my own mind, but it seems to me that attacking Mr Farrier makes less sense than asking Corsair to speak up and answer some simple questions. Perhaps they could prove him wrong. Meanwhile I for one would be utterly unwilling to spend/bet HUGE money and then take for example a C36-37 offshore with the very credible specter of doubt hanging out there. Would you? Link to post Share on other sites
Oxygen Mask 1 Posted November 30, 2008 Share Posted November 30, 2008 And still, Dude... it's none of your business. So, who's business is it? If there are issues with a design, or some common failures, and somebody knows about, I'd sure like for them to make it known before setting off offshore. Exactly! Chris - what if it was me asking those questions? What if, like so many SA members often do, I came on here and said "Hey I hear there's been 3 rudders failures of a certain boat, anybody know whats up, manufacturer care to comment?" would you be telling me to STFU it's none of my business? Link to post Share on other sites
Y-Bar 0 Posted December 1, 2008 Share Posted December 1, 2008 Up to this date nobody knows exactly what has happened to this tri. Has it been recovered and repaired or is it still floating around out there? Communication is the key to having a successfull business. Being a business / builder and keeping quiet on this subject has two outcomes One is that you say nothing and that just puts doubt in peoples minds about the quality of your product and whether they would want to buy it in the first place. Second is that you are open and communicate with clients and perspective buyers to address their concerns and confirm that your product is a quality item. I would think that the latter would only be good for business. Dont know about anyone else but I think these forums go a long way to selling boats and reading what has gone on in this forum to date does not in my mind reinforce the particular product previously mentioned. Link to post Share on other sites
mike.grp7 0 Posted December 2, 2008 Share Posted December 2, 2008 Corsair has contacted all the 36 owners and have repaired what needed to be repaired and have no complaints form any owners ... That doesn't sound true from what has been written here. In fact it seems Corsair did not properly advise C36 owners, and it appears even a dealer only found out about what appears to be very serious problems from friends who knew the original surveyor (posting #32). So far, Corsair has not offered any evidence or facts to the contrary, while another C36 was abandoned at sea due to structural failures, even while this discussion was going on. May I again suggest that all that silly nonsense stop, as it is not doing ANYBODY any favours , especially nobody who owns a Farrier or Corsair. It sounds like you may be worried more about resale value, but it looks like lives could be being put at risk by poor design, followed by a coverup, which surely should be of greater concern. No bashing, just facts, but it seems serious questions remain unanswered. Link to post Share on other sites
jetboy 0 Posted March 18, 2015 Share Posted March 18, 2015 I have also now asked you four times privately... This is a bit misleading. Mr Farrier and I have never met and never corresponded with each other on any topic at all. You still haven't answered the question. My four earlier emails in regard to this matter were sent to the President of Corsair Marine, Paul Koch (still there), along with his factory manager at that time. The 'you' in my previous email means 'Corsair', not Lawson Dixon. But if, as you say, corporate Corsair is responsible for the C36 design, then corporate Corsair should also be answering the questions. The reason for my ongoing concerns is that C36 owners kept contacting me for information on what what happened, and what they should do about it, or watch for. It did not sound like they had heard from Corsair, and I was having to do your customer support work, and for a boat that someone else still unknown had designed. Even a Corsair dealer emailed me and stated " I would not even know about it myself were it not that one of my friends in Texas who knew the first surveyor called me to let me know. Throughout the whole thing, we dealers received nothing in the way of warnings or information of any kind." Ian Farrier Farrier Marine (NZ) Ltd Farrier Marine, Inc Mr. Farrier, You seem like an angry fellow. Left Corsair and then fell on your face did you? Bit a a flop? Could not even copy the Corsair line could you? I mean I saw the F32RX. Paced it too. What does the R and X in the F32RX stand for? I mean, we sailed right over the top of your boat. Faster, higher, for less money, with better accomodations. Seems your F32RX is about 1000 lbs too heavy and $100,000 too expensive. So I know the "R" can't stand for racing. Does the "X" stand for extra weight and extra price? Do you plan to market that boat in the US? God luck with that. Oh, wait, that's right, you can't hack it in the US. You don't market here. HEY MR FARRIER, IF YOU ARE ALL THAT, WHY DON'T YOU COME BEAT CORSAIR AT THEIR GAME? But you can't, so you tilt at windmills and cry like some little kid that took his marbles and went home and now finds he has no friends left to play with. Too bad. So sad. But could you you please go scream into the wind somewhere else? Like maybe the F-boats forum. Oh, wait, that has been taken over by Corsair owners too. Gee, I wonder why we never heard from all these poor C36/37 owners there. Or here? No, just your spun version. HEY MR FARRIER CAN YOU TELL US: WHAT WAS THE TOTAL COST FOR THE F32RX AT THE SHOW AND HOW MUCH DOES IT WEIGH (TELL THE TRUTH, NOW)? OH, CAN YOU ALSO TELL US ABOUT THE PERFORMANCE? YOU KNOW, LIKE WHAT BOAT SPEEDS WERE YOU SEEING UPWIND IN WHAT WIND SPEEDS AND WHAT WERE THE TACKING ANGLES? I would like to compare it too the C31R which I know well! Just ran across this searching for something else. Old post. But kinda funny in retrospect. It would appear that he did just as you suggested... Link to post Share on other sites
floater 41 Posted March 19, 2015 Share Posted March 19, 2015 Bit of an education. I remember a C36 on yachtworld selling cheap - I couldn't figure out why it was priced so low... Link to post Share on other sites
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