Sailboat Capsizes in SF

[Daimond 5]

Just heard this on a lead in for the 11pm news. Sailboat capsizes outside the Golden Gate Bridge tonight. Fingers crossed. Anybody know anything?

mm

[War Dog 10]

 

 

OH shit!!

[War Dog 10]

What station??

[Daimond 5]

Both rescued. participating in the farralons race. Channel 2. CG looking for other POSSIBLE late boats. Rescued found clinging to upside down boat.

[valis 198]

This is from cbs5.com:

------------

Two people were rescued from the frigid waters of the Pacific Ocean tonight after their sailboat capsized about eight miles west of the Golden Gate Bridge, a U.S. Coast Guard petty officer said.

 

The victims had been participating in the Double Handed Farallones Race when their 27-foot sailing vessel overturned, according to the Coast Guard. The capsized boat was reported at 8:23 p.m.

 

A San Francisco Bar Pilot boat rescued one sailor, and a Coast Guard boat rescued the other, the petty officer said.

 

Both victims appeared to be hypothermic and were taken to Coast Guard Station Golden Gate in Sausalito, where they were transported to a local hospital, according to the petty officer.

------------

 

That's all I know...

[War Dog 10]

This is from cbs5.com:

------------

Two people were rescued from the frigid waters of the Pacific Ocean tonight after their sailboat capsized about eight miles west of the Golden Gate Bridge, a U.S. Coast Guard petty officer said.

 

The victims had been participating in the Double Handed Farallones Race when their 27-foot sailing vessel overturned, according to the Coast Guard. The capsized boat was reported at 8:23 p.m.

 

A San Francisco Bar Pilot boat rescued one sailor, and a Coast Guard boat rescued the other, the petty officer said.

 

Both victims appeared to be hypothermic and were taken to Coast Guard Station Golden Gate in Sausalito, where they were transported to a local hospital, according to the petty officer.

------------

 

That's all I know...

 

 

Thanks!!

 

 

but bad news!!!

 

27'er not the newb with SC 27 I hope!! but then again dont wish this on any of my fellow racers!!

[War Dog 10]

RC (SlackWater) is posting on the DHF thread all safe!!

[NotaRealNoob 0]

RC (Slack water) is posting on the DHF thread all safe!!

 

Was it one of the Corsair tri's?

[War Dog 10]

RC (Slack water) is posting on the DHF thread all safe!!

 

Was it one of the Corsair tri's?

 

J80

 

 

ULDB Guy???

 

I thought he was holding off for the SHF race thats his style so who else??

[SlackWater_SF 52]

Was it one of the Corsair tri's?

Heat Wave, J-80, capsized in the San Francisco Entrance Channel, near buoys 7 & 8.

 

Both sailors were recovered by the Coast Guard and they were treated by EMS CG personnel

at the SF Crissy Field station for hypothermia. They were not hospitalized. Fortunately, handheld

VHF communication from the vessel allowed the Coast Guard to be alerted.

 

Preliminary data is the entrance channel had breaking waves, as reported by finishers after dark.

 

BAMA Race Committee

[War Dog 10]

Was it one of the Corsair tri's?

Heat Wave, J-80, capsized in the San Francisco Entrance Channel, near buoys 7 & 8.

 

Both sailors were recovered by the Coast Guard and they were treated by EMS CG personnel

at the SF Crissy Field station for hypothermia. They were not hospitalized. Fortunately, handheld

VHF communication from the vessel allowed the Coast Guard to be alerted.

 

Preliminary data is the entrance channel had breaking waves, as reported by finishers after dark.

 

BAMA Race Committee

 

 

Thanks again!!!!

[NotaRealNoob 0]

Glad they're OK.

 

Is everyone else accounted for?

[Daimond 5]

RC (Slack water) is posting on the DHF thread all safe!!

 

Was it one of the Corsair tri's?

 

J80

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

ULDB Guy???

 

I thought he was holding off for the SHF race thats his style so who else??

 

 

Think he sails a J92

[War Dog 10]

RC (Slack water) is posting on the DHF thread all safe!!

 

Was it one of the Corsair tri's?

 

J80

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

ULDB Guy???

 

I thought he was holding off for the SHF race thats his style so who else??

 

 

Think he sails a J92

 

 

Yep fucking Scotch mulddling me brain again!!

[White Wing 1]

J/80 capsize....WTF? J/24 yes, but never heard of a J/80 going over and not coming back up. Two rescued clinging to the overturned boat --- does anyone know the full story?

 

WWing

[Jambalaya 51]

J/80 capsize....WTF? J/24 yes, but never heard of a J/80 going over and not coming back up. Two rescued clinging to the overturned boat --- does anyone know the full story?

 

WWing

 

Agreed - pretty seaworthy little buggars - knocked down yes, rolled possbly, but not coming back up ?

[AYACHT 2]

did the keel fall off?

[JungleJim 0]

shite...my friend sails on that boat. he is very good, great experience (he has done TP, PV, and Cabo with us and had a couple of TPs under his belt before-is also a sailing instructor and knows the J80s inside out). there will be an interesting story here for sure. not sure if he did this race on Heatwave as he was working up for DH TP on a Hobie33.

[ULDBGuy 5]

I've been knocked flat on an 80 and wondered if it would come back up.

 

Spin sheet on the primary+second wrap ('cause it's windy and one guy's been trimming it ALL DAY)=override. Bases under the winches help but not all boats have 'em.

 

Then the washing machine out there to get 'er started. Yep, quite do-able. Glad the guys are both okay.

[ptlyons 0]

On their way out:

 

[Travieso 1]

I'm glad to hear everyone is OK. At night, with breakers in the channel entrance and a small boat could equal bad news.

[ULDBGuy 5]

Yep, he's got the bases under the primaries but that is still a very flat lead - just guessing of course.

 

The drop board is in and hatch is closed (at least then) - the boat could be floating out there for awhile . . .

[K38BOB 21]

RC (SlackWater) is posting on the DHF thread all safe!!

 

here's the link to that report and the DHF

 

http://forums.sailinganarchy.com/index.php...t&p=2203971

[aA 208]

plenty of breaking waves out there last night and with the wind angle it lead to some very white knuckle moments. we actually sailed slower vmg for a bit to get out of the south bar and into the channel (even though it was ebbing) because of just this kind of issue. very glad to hear these guys are ok.

[Team Jenna Racing 0]

Yes we're both very glad we are ok. It was a very scary experience and I don't wish it on anyone. I was amazed when my buddy (Dave Wilhite) dove under the overturned boat to recover our VHF radio from a sheet bag. That's what saved our lives for sure.

I think I spent about an hour trying to stand on top of the boat leaning against the rudder talking to the coast guard on the VHF and holding a flashlight over my head.

To answer some of your questions -

The keel did fall off. We were going really fast down a very large wave with a reefed main and the jib. All of a sudden I had no helm and the boat turned 90 degrees (very weird thing to have happen when you are going fast and actually a little low - i didn't feel i was in danger of wiping out at that angle and speed at all, we had been doing it for hours). The boat turned 90 very quickly and the wave we were riding broke over us and rolled the boat. At the beginning of the roll we heard what sounded like a tree cracking and falling down. That would have been the keel falling clean off. We were left in the water, teathered to the jack lines under the boat. We ended up cutting our teathers so we didn't get dragged under.

About an hour later and lots of talking on the radio, 2 coast guard boats, a pilot boat and a helicopter all found us at the same time. They tossed us a line and I got my buddy off the boat as he was much colder than me due to the fact that he had been in the water the whole time while I was standing on the boat (though I think i got washed off the boat about 50 times). Then another coast guard boat told me to swim to them so I did.

Neither of us have any serious injuries, just lots of bruises and pretty sore bodies.

The coast guard did a great job of finding us and getting us to safety, lots of thanks go out to them.

 

-David Servais.

[Idon'tpost 0]

Wow. Glad you're home. Safe and warm!

[Mambo Kings 676]

Yes we're both very glad we are ok. It was a very scary experience and I don't wish it on anyone.

-David Servais.

 

Glad you are safe.

Thank God for the hand held and good calm thinking.

 

J

[DA-WOODY 1,065]

Yes we're both very glad we are ok. It was a very scary experience and I don't wish it on anyone. I was amazed when my buddy (Dave Wilhite) dove under the overturned boat to recover our VHF radio from a sheet bag. That's what saved our lives for sure.

I think I spent about an hour trying to stand on top of the boat leaning against the rudder talking to the coast guard on the VHF and holding a flashlight over my head.

To answer some of your questions -

The keel did fall off. We were going really fast down a very large wave with a reefed main and the jib. All of a sudden I had no helm and the boat turned 90 degrees (very weird thing to have happen when you are going fast and actually a little low - i didn't feel i was in danger of wiping out at that angle and speed at all, we had been doing it for hours). The boat turned 90 very quickly and the wave we were riding broke over us and rolled the boat. At the beginning of the roll we heard what sounded like a tree cracking and falling down. That would have been the keel falling clean off. We were left in the water, teathered to the jack lines under the boat. We ended up cutting our teathers so we didn't get dragged under.

About an hour later and lots of talking on the radio, 2 coast guard boats, a pilot boat and a helicopter all found us at the same time. They tossed us a line and I got my buddy off the boat as he was much colder than me due to the fact that he had been in the water the whole time while I was standing on the boat (though I think i got washed off the boat about 50 times). Then another coast guard boat told me to swim to them so I did.

Neither of us have any serious injuries, just lots of bruises and pretty sore bodies.

The coast guard did a great job of finding us and getting us to safety, lots of thanks go out to them.

 

-David Servais.

 

Glad you are both OK !!!!!

 

looks like a personal GPS-EPIRB is a must have regardless of how far outside one is headed

 

May that be the closest you ever come to ultimate-disaster

 

 

Congratulations on making all the correct choices - Most people who go boating "would not"

 

 

Looking forward to seeing you "in person" again (I'll get you a round) !!!!!!!!

[us7070 294]

is the boat going to be salvaged?

 

it would be nice to see what went wrong w the keel.

[SlackWater_SF 52]

DEL.Text

 

I was amazed when my buddy (Dave Wilhite) dove under the overturned boat to recover our VHF radio from a sheet bag.

That's what saved our lives for sure.

 

I think I spent about an hour trying to stand on top of the boat leaning against the rudder talking to the coast guard on

the VHF and holding a flashlight over my head.

 

DEL.Text

 

Neither of us have any serious injuries, just lots of bruises and pretty sore bodies.

The coast guard did a great job of finding us and getting us to safety, lots of thanks go out to them.

 

Thank you for posting, it is much appreciated.

[Randall Flagg 0]

How old is the boat? What's the hull number?

[daffy 6]

glad you guys are safe, that's the 2nd j-80 that I know of loosing its keel, if I had one I'd be inspecting the keel attachment about right now!

[Randall Flagg 0]

glad you guys are safe, that's the 2nd j-80 that I know of loosing its keel, if I had one I'd be inspecting the keel attachment about right now!

It wasn't the attachment on the other boat. The whole sump tore off. That boat was hull number 21.

[jdougherty 1]

Damm glad it worked it well for you guys.

[mustang__1 298]

I havent been in the game all that long, but does it seem like there are way too many keels falling off lately? I remember when everyone was bitching about the canting keel boats being unsafe because they were dropping keels (Shock's, SKANDIA/wild thing, etc). WTH is going on? Especially for a heavy boat like a J80...

[K38BOB 21]

Yes we're both very glad we are ok. It was a very scary experience and I don't wish it on anyone. I was amazed when my buddy (Dave Wilhite) dove under the overturned boat to recover our VHF radio from a sheet bag. That's what saved our lives for sure.

I think I spent about an hour trying to stand on top of the boat leaning against the rudder talking to the coast guard on the VHF and holding a flashlight over my head.

To answer some of your questions -

The keel did fall off. We were going really fast down a very large wave with a reefed main and the jib. All of a sudden I had no helm and the boat turned 90 degrees (very weird thing to have happen when you are going fast and actually a little low - i didn't feel i was in danger of wiping out at that angle and speed at all, we had been doing it for hours). The boat turned 90 very quickly and the wave we were riding broke over us and rolled the boat. At the beginning of the roll we heard what sounded like a tree cracking and falling down. That would have been the keel falling clean off. We were left in the water, teathered to the jack lines under the boat. We ended up cutting our teathers so we didn't get dragged under.

About an hour later and lots of talking on the radio, 2 coast guard boats, a pilot boat and a helicopter all found us at the same time. They tossed us a line and I got my buddy off the boat as he was much colder than me due to the fact that he had been in the water the whole time while I was standing on the boat (though I think i got washed off the boat about 50 times). Then another coast guard boat told me to swim to them so I did.

Neither of us have any serious injuries, just lots of bruises and pretty sore bodies.

The coast guard did a great job of finding us and getting us to safety, lots of thanks go out to them.

 

-David Servais.

 

Very glad it worked out for you. When you get a chance, what would you do better/differently with the benefit of hindsight?

bob

[Tacking 12]

wow, that race does go nasty often, doesn't it? Very glad you guys are fine. A good lesson for all here. Even on a day that appears to be really nice you want to have a perosnal Epirb out there!

[DDW 748]

I havent been in the game all that long, but does it seem like there are way too many keels falling off lately? I remember when everyone was bitching about the canting keel boats being unsafe because they were dropping keels (Shock's, SKANDIA/wild thing, etc). WTH is going on? Especially for a heavy boat like a J80...

Having taken a look at the J-boat keels sitting at Mars waiting to be shipped, I for one am not all that surprised that some of them have come off. Nothing to do with Mars: to my remark "those don't look like they would stay on" they answered, "we have to build them like the drawing says".

 

Good to hear the outcome of this one wasn't tragic.

[Moonduster 314]

What does a J80 keel look like, anyway? Is it a strut and bulb or just a slab-o-lead?

[Tacking 12]

What does a J80 keel look like, anyway? Is it a strut and bulb or just a slab-o-lead?

 

It does have a bulb (no surprise as it falls off). I don't think the bulb is very extreme, but certainly a lot of extra weight at the bottom, and thus more leverage while thinner at the top, and thus more prone to failure.

[Moonduster 314]

Funny there were no photos or line drawings on the J80 class web site but I did find a line drawing on the J-Boats site. Looks like a fairly typical keel with a bulb-like bottom chunk but all molded as one wad of lead.

 

So, what's the problem, too few bolts and not enough longitudinal space between them?

[DDW 748]

What does a J80 keel look like, anyway? Is it a strut and bulb or just a slab-o-lead?

If it like the ones I saw (and I believe all the recent Js are about the same) it is a monolithic casting with the bloated triangle shaped bulb that the current racing rules seem to favor (has something to do with the way the bulb is measured). The bearing surface at the hull is very narrow with a single row of bolts down the center, basically the bolts are loaded in bending. I would be surprised if the keel itself failed. I would not be surprised if the bolts or fiberglass bearing failed.

[Moonduster 314]

A single row of bolts, huh? Cool. And I bet the top of the stub, the bit that mates to the hull, is really narrow, too, right? Definitely cool. Won't work, but cool!

[DDW 748]

A single row of bolts, huh? Cool. And I bet the top of the stub, the bit that mates to the hull, is really narrow, too, right? Definitely cool. Won't work, but cool!

Perhaps a picture would be instructive. Note that the bearing surface is only a little wider than the bolt diameter. Not an optical illusion, that's what it really looked like. Bolts are about 1" for scale. I think this was for a J120, 7000 lbs or so, bulb is about 4-5 feet below what you see. There is sort of a short socket arrangement apparently. It was very nicely made. But very poorly designed.

 

Disclaimer: it isn't a J80 keel, don't know what happened in this case, just sayin'. Also, I am only an engineer, not a certified NA.

 

[TimFordi550#87 4]

What does a J80 keel look like, anyway? Is it a strut and bulb or just a slab-o-lead?

 

somewhat like this

 

[Schoonerman 6]

Holy shit David and Dave. I can't tell you how glad I am hearing that you're safe and healthy.

 

Sorry to hear about the ordeal. When you guys get back on your feet mentally, be great to have you do a presentation on this.

 

You guys need anything...let me know.

 

Is the boat still floating? Can we muster a tow crew to go get it?

 

I'd hate to hear about another boat ending up in the south seas as a fishing boat.

 

...Drew

[Moonduster 314]

Like, wow ... totally cool! Probably designed by a really frustrated engineer who wasn't allowed to work on a canting keel so he drew one that would wiggle around anyway!

 

Although, the socket approach should really provide the same loading effect as a wider keel stub. Now I'm really curious about how the socket in the hull is designed (clearances, etc) and how it's supposed to be attached (mastic or epoxy) and what the boat looks like now.

 

The one-design info on the J-Boats web site claims that there's only 1400 pounds of ballast, which doesn't take rocket science to attach. Just some basic math and reasonable safety factors. Was it damaged before the race? Did the snap-roll effect of the breaking wave exceed the safety factors?

 

Hmmm ...

[Daimond 5]

What does a J80 keel look like, anyway? Is it a strut and bulb or just a slab-o-lead?

[Daimond 5]

bulb portion

[BalticBandit 7]

Like, wow ... totally cool! Probably designed by a really frustrated engineer who wasn't allowed to work on a canting keel so he drew one that would wiggle around anyway!

 

Although, the socket approach should really provide the same loading effect as a wider keel stub. Now I'm really curious about how the socket in the hull is designed (clearances, etc) and how it's supposed to be attached (mastic or epoxy) and what the boat looks like now.

 

The one-design info on the J-Boats web site claims that there's only 1400 pounds of ballast, which doesn't take rocket science to attach. Just some basic math and reasonable safety factors. Was it damaged before the race? Did the snap-roll effect of the breaking wave exceed the safety factors?

 

Hmmm ...

 

J120 keels are tied into an interior stringer/frame system. The J120 failures have been due to failures of the bonding between the stringers and the hull if I recollect correctly. There is a whole thread on this about a year ago.

[El Mariachi 586]

What does a J80 keel look like, anyway? Is it a strut and bulb or just a slab-o-lead?

 

somewhat like this

 

 

 

I don't know race boats from f'ng broccolli but that sure doesn't look like a whole hell lot of real estate to be hanging 3/4 ton of car batteries off of to me.

 

SOP? Or an exception?...........

[Rain Man 1,191]

There is no reason why a properly designed, manufactured, installed and maintained high-aspect ratio keel with a single row of bolts and a bulb should fail. Note the emphasis on proper design, manufacture, installation and maintenance. What happened in this case was a failure in one or more of the 4 areas.

 

My boat has a single row of bolts like this. A single row of bolts isn't itself a problem if everything else is done right. In some ways I'd rather have a single row rather than a double row of smaller bolts, for fear that if any one of them gets loaded it up it will fail. The bolts on my boat could each hold the keel. I worry more about what it is that the bolts are attached to.

 

dash

[ULDBGuy 5]

David and Dave, very glad you guys made it. From Peter's photo it appears the boat was well-prepared and you guys were sailing it well.

 

I wonder if the rudder went first and caused the sudden 90 degree turn.

[DDW 748]

Although, the socket approach should really provide the same loading effect as a wider keel stub. Now I'm really curious about how the socket in the hull is designed (clearances, etc) and how it's supposed to be attached (mastic or epoxy) and what the boat looks like now.

The socket in this case (in the photo) was no deeper than the width of the keel. A socket can work, but not designed like that.

 

Keels started out being pretty simple structures that lent themselves to simple analysis. Not any more. If you are going to have very high stresses involved (like the one in the picture) then you need to consider the stiffness of all of the elements, the local ultimate strength of the materials used, the dynamic loadings, and fatigue factors. Then use materials strong enough to handle the stresses until they can be spread into the lower strength materials in the rest of the boat (like the fiberglass and lead). If you just do a simple beam analysis on something like that you are going to have failures.

 

Sure would be interesting to see pictures of that J80 hull to see what failed first.

[jrpytlak 1]

is the boat going to be salvaged?

 

it would be nice to see what went wrong w the keel.

 

Anybody know what happened to the one that the keel fell off of last year??

[brewmaster 0]

I wonder if the rudder went first and caused the sudden 90 degree turn.

 

Somewhere the skipper (I think he was) said that he was leaning against the rudder when communicating the the CG. IOW...The rudder was still stuck to the boat. Maybe some of the linkage failed but from the tone of his post, it seemed like he felt the rudder was fine.

 

 

Chilling situation. Looking forward to a full write-up....

[Eric 0]

That had to be scary Dave. What an experience.

 

I sailed by your old boat "Jenna" today tied to a buoy in Westsound. It's not pretty but the keel is still attached. I'm sure you could have it back.

[Jupiter 0]

Dave and David,

 

I am so glad you are all ok. I had a student who was there and quit suspecting a night time finish.

 

Clearly this is a course for the experienced like you both.

 

I wear a vhf in my vest for events like this due to the what ifs. What a sailor to go get the radio, what a difference!

 

On to the problem, what hull no was this and were the bolts ck'd recently? Do you recall what speed you were at?

 

I m 151, and most folks around here will say I sail to the limit. @18.3 in pursuit of 23.0 this problem must be understood.

 

I am sure Rod Johnstone will want to figure this one out.

 

Thank goodness tanks in the for peak and under the cockpit were in place to buy time!

 

Lets us know the hull no and what inspections were done in advance, it makes a difference despite the findings!

 

I am thankful we will see you both again;

 

Crazy Ivan

[Randall Flagg 0]

is the boat going to be salvaged?

 

it would be nice to see what went wrong w the keel.

 

Anybody know what happened to the one that the keel fell off of last year??

Like I said earlier, on the other J80 keel failure, the whole sump tore off. The keel bolts did not fail. That boat was hull number 21 and I believe this one is #45. I'll bet it tore off the same way.

[us7070 294]

is the boat going to be salvaged?

 

it would be nice to see what went wrong w the keel.

 

Anybody know what happened to the one that the keel fell off of last year??

Like I said earlier, on the other J80 keel failure, the whole sump tore off. The keel bolts did not fail. That boat was hull number 21 and I believe this one is #45. I'll bet it tore off the same way.

 

do you have a link to a thread?

 

are there pictures?

[Randall Flagg 0]

is the boat going to be salvaged?

 

it would be nice to see what went wrong w the keel.

 

Anybody know what happened to the one that the keel fell off of last year??

Like I said earlier, on the other J80 keel failure, the whole sump tore off. The keel bolts did not fail. That boat was hull number 21 and I believe this one is #45. I'll bet it tore off the same way.

 

do you have a link to a thread?

 

are there pictures?

Yes, there are pictures. Here's the link: http://forums.sailinganarchy.com/index.php...50&start=50

[kent_island_sailor 3,988]

#1 - Thank God everyone is OK.

#2 - My next boat might have internal ballast! I swear keels pretty much stayed on the boat back in the day.....

[jurrasicsailor 0]

Cal 40's are the only way to go!! No cal 40 has ever lost it's (internally ballasted) keel!

[stuck in the middle 0]

I don't know race boats from f'ng broccolli but that sure doesn't look like a whole hell lot of real estate to be hanging 3/4 ton of car batteries off of to me.

 

SOP? Or an exception?...........

 

[Heatwave80 0]

Dave and David,

 

I am so glad you are all ok. I had a student who was there and quit suspecting a night time finish.

 

Clearly this is a course for the experienced like you both.

 

I wear a vhf in my vest for events like this due to the what ifs. What a sailor to go get the radio, what a difference!

 

On to the problem, what hull no was this and were the bolts ck'd recently? Do you recall what speed you were at?

 

I m 151, and most folks around here will say I sail to the limit. @18.3 in pursuit of 23.0 this problem must be understood.

 

I am sure Rod Johnstone will want to figure this one out.

 

Thank goodness tanks in the for peak and under the cockpit were in place to buy time!

 

Lets us know the hull no and what inspections were done in advance, it makes a difference despite the findings!

 

I am thankful we will see you both again;

 

Crazy Ivan

Hull number is indeed 45 (can be seen on the mainsail in the photo). I am the former owner of Heatwave and was devastated to hear the news from her new owner. I am thankful nobody was hurt and very curious to know the cause of the failure. With the sealed air tanks, I imagine the boat will float indefinitely. Would be ideal to recover the boat to try to determine the failure mode. For the guys who were on board, what could you see in the keel area when the boat was inverted? In other words were there a bunch of small (bolt) holes or one large hole where the sump tore away? Any chance the boat collided with an object? I have sailed that boat in soem pretty extreme conditions and always trusted it implicitly.

[redboat 51]

We so often hear stories about incidents at sea where sailors were either unprepared or didn't do the right things.

 

This is not the case with D&D. Glad you are OK and you should both be congratulated for your actions. Harnesses, knives, lights and radio were not only onboard but were available.

 

Another reminder to us all.

 

Does make one wonder about how some of the new thin strut/massive bulb keels will hold up over time. IRC promotes stable cruiser/racers encouraging that appendage form. Having said that, I'm sure what are now considered conservative fins were viewed similarly years ago when full length keels were the norm.

 

Story also reminds me of my J24. Hull 1037. Bought it new. Checked keelbolts and found vermiculite supporting nuts/washers. That was disturbing.

[kent_island_sailor 3,988]

One point FYI:

Put VHF/PLB in your pocket or on your harness if conditions warrant.

 

The old aviation truism comes to mind:

Survival gear is what you wear. Gear in the cabin is camping gear.

[mrnanney 0]

Glad everyone is ok. I had always thought the J80 is cool as being heavier it could take this sort abuse. Perhaps it has a bad weak spot judging from the photo of the other keel failure. My uneducated guess is the loss of helm was the keel failing and bending over to one side, then the boat tripped and the crack was the keel whipping over to the other side and shearing off.

 

One question someone suggested tightening keel bolts. I realize up on the hard you might see issues, but do most sailors have massive pipe wrenches and knowledge of what foot pounbs to tighten too? If this is really routine maintenance the boats should at least be sold with giant sockets and instructions on appropriate torque. Also in the water - it would seem the keel is goint to be pulling down so that the bolts will appear tight? Further it would seem possible that with the appropriate massive wrench, you could crush the structure unless you knew the foot pounds, or perhaps this gets gradually compressed and weakended, even though the bolts appear tight.

 

If the whole sump/stub? ripped off that would appear to be engineering, unless loose bolts make that failure more likely?

from the thread of other failure -

[TimFordi550#87 4]

Maybe some of the linkage failed but from the tone of his post, it seemed like he felt the rudder was fine.

 

Tranny hung rudder. Linkage would be a tiller extension.

[Randall Flagg 0]

Glad everyone is ok. I had always thought the J80 is cool as being heavier it could take this sort abuse. Perhaps it has a bad weak spot judging from the photo of the other keel failure. My uneducated guess is the loss of helm was the keel failing and bending over to one side, then the boat tripped and the crack was the keel whipping over to the other side and shearing off.

 

One question someone suggested tightening keel bolts. I realize up on the hard you might see issues, but do most sailors have massive pipe wrenches and knowledge of what foot pounbs to tighten too? If this is really routine maintenance the boats should at least be sold with giant sockets and instructions on appropriate torque. Also in the water - it would seem the keel is goint to be pulling down so that the bolts will appear tight? Further it would seem possible that with the appropriate massive wrench, you could crush the structure unless you knew the foot pounds, or perhaps this gets gradually compressed and weakended, even though the bolts appear tight.

 

If the whole sump/stub? ripped off that would appear to be engineering, unless loose bolts make that failure more likely?

from the thread of other failure -

Tightening keel bolts wouldn't do shit to prevent that failure. I'm anxious to see what broke on this boat. If I owned a boat between hull #21 and 45 I'd be having a surveyor tapping my hull and taking moisture readings around the keel.

[AYACHT 2]

did the keel fall off?

[kent_island_sailor 3,988]

Because it isn't possible that any other J-80 <21 or >45 might have this issue as well

 

 

Tightening keel bolts wouldn't do shit to prevent that failure. I'm anxious to see what broke on this boat. If I owned a boat between hull #21 and 45 I'd be having a surveyor tapping my hull and taking moisture readings around the keel.

[Randall Flagg 0]

Because it isn't possible that any other J-80 <21 or >45 might have this issue as well

 

 

Tightening keel bolts wouldn't do shit to prevent that failure. I'm anxious to see what broke on this boat. If I owned a boat between hull #21 and 45 I'd be having a surveyor tapping my hull and taking moisture readings around the keel.

It is quite possible, but these are both EARLY J80s and probably the same year. Over 1000 80s have been built and the only 2 failures happen to be within 24 hulls of each other. I'd be more concerned if I had a boat of that vintage.

[SurfCityCatamarans 9]

We so often hear stories about incidents at sea where sailors were either unprepared or didn't do the right things.

 

This is not the case with D&D. Glad you are OK and you should both be congratulated for your actions. Harnesses, knives, lights and radio were not only onboard but were available.

 

Another reminder to us all.

 

No doubt! Having gear at the ready made this story turn out OK rather than really, really bad.

[Jambalaya 51]

Dave & David - glad you are OK and thank you for posting, it's really helpful - you deserve the praise for being well prepared.

[ZeroTheHero 47]

scary shit, good work keeping safe!

[jrpytlak 1]

is the boat going to be salvaged?

 

it would be nice to see what went wrong w the keel.

 

Anybody know what happened to the one that the keel fell off of last year??

Like I said earlier, on the other J80 keel failure, the whole sump tore off. The keel bolts did not fail. That boat was hull number 21 and I believe this one is #45. I'll bet it tore off the same way.

 

 

I know just what happened to the one last year. During the run where the keel was in the air more than the rig. That still doesn't mean it should fall off. It happened to be the same day and same weather that a 40.7 also lost it's rudder and sank. I'm curious that since the owner stood on the over turned hull, he prob had the time to look 8 feet in front of him to see if the sump tore out or just keel bolts. I'm assuming the entire sump as well. I cant remember, but what is the hull core material there? It's weird, I've spent more time on 80's than prob most owners, but I don't recall that it looks like under the floor boards either.

[jrpytlak 1]

#2 - My next boat might have internal ballast! I swear keels pretty much stayed on the boat back in the day.....

 

You mean like a Mac?

[mad 3,967]

is the boat going to be salvaged?

 

it would be nice to see what went wrong w the keel.

 

Anybody know what happened to the one that the keel fell off of last year??

Like I said earlier, on the other J80 keel failure, the whole sump tore off. The keel bolts did not fail. That boat was hull number 21 and I believe this one is #45. I'll bet it tore off the same way.

 

 

I know just what happened to the one last year. During the run where the keel was in the air more than the rig. That still doesn't mean it should fall off. It happened to be the same day and same weather that a 40.7 also lost it's rudder and sank. I'm curious that since the owner stood on the over turned hull, he prob had the time to look 8 feet in front of him to see if the sump tore out or just keel bolts. I'm assuming the entire sump as well. I cant remember, but what is the hull core material there? It's weird, I've spent more time on 80's than prob most owners, but I don't recall that it looks like under the floor boards either.

hopefully theres no core material directly where it bolts on

[Randall Flagg 0]

is the boat going to be salvaged?

 

it would be nice to see what went wrong w the keel.

 

Anybody know what happened to the one that the keel fell off of last year??

Like I said earlier, on the other J80 keel failure, the whole sump tore off. The keel bolts did not fail. That boat was hull number 21 and I believe this one is #45. I'll bet it tore off the same way.

 

 

I know just what happened to the one last year. During the run where the keel was in the air more than the rig. That still doesn't mean it should fall off. It happened to be the same day and same weather that a 40.7 also lost it's rudder and sank. I'm curious that since the owner stood on the over turned hull, he prob had the time to look 8 feet in front of him to see if the sump tore out or just keel bolts. I'm assuming the entire sump as well. I cant remember, but what is the hull core material there? It's weird, I've spent more time on 80's than prob most owners, but I don't recall that it looks like under the floor boards either.

Its balsa core. The sump goes down about a foot.

[jrpytlak 1]

[Tranny hung rudder. Linkage would be a tiller extension.

 

 

I hate it when trannies are hung................

[TimFordi550#87 4]

well hung.

[HookEm 6]

Per the Practical Sailor article on the J80 website "There's storage in the forepeak for little more than the battery and some small items, because the hollow area below the berth is enclosed to provide flotation... A bulkhead 6' from the stern encloses the aft section of the boat, adding additional flotation." I don't know how much flotation this provides.

 

But, it is somewhat ironic, that the combination of losing the 1,400 lb keel plus the bulkheaded flotation provided on the J80, probably helped keep the boat afloat and the sailors alive.

[jrpytlak 1]

Per the Practical Sailor article on the J80 website "There's storage in the forepeak for little more than the battery and some small items, because the hollow area below the berth is enclosed to provide flotation... A bulkhead 6' from the stern encloses the aft section of the boat, adding additional flotation." I don't know how much flotation this provides.

 

But, it is somewhat ironic, that the combination of losing the 1,400 lb keel plus the bulkheaded flotation provided on the J80, probably helped keep the boat afloat and the sailors alive.

 

 

There's a lotta air space in those tanks. I'd bet if the keel was still connected and the boat was full of wawa, it'd still float. Pretty sure it was designed that way. I bet it was designed for the keel sump not to rip out either though.

[U20guy2 9]

Yes we're both very glad we are ok. It was a very scary experience and I don't wish it on anyone. I was amazed when my buddy (Dave Wilhite) dove under the overturned boat to recover our VHF radio from a sheet bag. That's what saved our lives for sure.

I think I spent about an hour trying to stand on top of the boat leaning against the rudder talking to the coast guard on the VHF and holding a flashlight over my head.

To answer some of your questions -

The keel did fall off. We were going really fast down a very large wave with a reefed main and the jib. All of a sudden I had no helm and the boat turned 90 degrees (very weird thing to have happen when you are going fast and actually a little low - i didn't feel i was in danger of wiping out at that angle and speed at all, we had been doing it for hours). The boat turned 90 very quickly and the wave we were riding broke over us and rolled the boat. At the beginning of the roll we heard what sounded like a tree cracking and falling down. That would have been the keel falling clean off. We were left in the water, teathered to the jack lines under the boat. We ended up cutting our teathers so we didn't get dragged under.

About an hour later and lots of talking on the radio, 2 coast guard boats, a pilot boat and a helicopter all found us at the same time. They tossed us a line and I got my buddy off the boat as he was much colder than me due to the fact that he had been in the water the whole time while I was standing on the boat (though I think i got washed off the boat about 50 times). Then another coast guard boat told me to swim to them so I did.

Neither of us have any serious injuries, just lots of bruises and pretty sore bodies.

The coast guard did a great job of finding us and getting us to safety, lots of thanks go out to them.

 

-David Servais.

 

David - thank you for the post! And very - very glad to see you guys are safe! Take it easy have a good week!

Whew could have been a heart breaker but smart thinking made it a good day.

[laserichard 11]

Very glad all are ok.

 

...

 

I think a good rule of thumb is that once you pass under the bridge the handheld gets clipped to your lifejacket

[Eric 0]

There's a lotta air space in those tanks. I'd bet if the keel was still connected and the boat was full of wawa, it'd still float. Pretty sure it was designed that way. I bet it was designed for the keel sump not to rip out either though.

 

If the keel fell off, then it was not designed to not fall off. There is no reason for a boat of the cost and relaxed performance of the J80 to ever have the keel/sump fail. If the crew can handle the conditions then the boat should also.

[jrpytlak 1]

There's a lotta air space in those tanks. I'd bet if the keel was still connected and the boat was full of wawa, it'd still float. Pretty sure it was designed that way. I bet it was designed for the keel sump not to rip out either though.

 

If the keel fell off, then it was not designed to not fall off. There is no reason for a boat of the cost and relaxed performance of the J80 to ever have the keel/sump fail. If the crew can handle the conditions then the boat should also.

 

 

That was spose to read that the keel sump wasn't designed to rip off either. For some reason, the forum won't let me edit.

[redboat 51]

Would EPIRB have helped get faster response?

 

I don't have personal EPIRB and was going to sometime get around to buying one for myself and crew for dh racing. Think I'll go shopping this week.

[U20guy2 9]

Would EPIRB have helped get faster response?

 

I don't have personal EPIRB and was going to sometime get around to buying one for myself and crew for dh racing. Think I'll go shopping this week.

 

I have pretty much decided when I get back into the norcal ocean racing I'll have a personal EPIRB with me. Wife is due in July she's a big sailor and she has basically said no ocean fun till after the kid arrives and if and when I do - do an ocean race my gear will be the best it can be or its a no go. I don't argue that and standing out at lands end on Sunday seeing the conditions out there its pretty much a no brainer you need to be really ready for the worst thing.

 

Very - very glad Dave and Dave are OK. I'll take a drive by Ocean beach area on the way home see if the 80 has made an appearance. I live 2 miles from Ocean beach.

[ULDBGuy 5]

Would EPIRB have helped get faster response?

 

Since the personal EPIRB's are not boat-specific (more are sold to hikers, skiers, etc.), the signal has to get picked up and then processed through a couple of agencies before it gets to the Coast Guard, then finally to Station San Francisco. The VHF transmission is received by Station SF directly. Also, if you've ever read the directions for activating a personal EPIRB, it doesn't give you a lot of confidence for an in-the-water scenario.

 

I have a boat-specific (full-sized) EPIRB w/integral GPS. My own concern on this point is whether if I snap-rolled my boat, the EPIRB signal would activate and make its way to the satellite.

 

I think the waterproof VHF attached to your body is the ticket for races within VHF range. Might be a good tool in a MOB situation too. ("No, I'm 20 degrees to your starboard . . .")

[U20guy2 9]

Would EPIRB have helped get faster response?

 

Since the personal EPIRB's are not boat-specific (more are sold to hikers, skiers, etc.), the signal has to get picked up and then processed through a couple of agencies before it gets to the Coast Guard, then finally to Station San Francisco. The VHF transmission is received by Station SF directly.

 

I have a boat-specific (full-sized) EPIRB w/integral GPS. My own concern on this point is whether if I snap-rolled my boat, the EPIRB signal would activate and make its way to the satellite.

 

I think the waterproof VHF attached to your body is the ticket for races within VHF range.

 

 

After the 2000 PAC Cup I generally carry personall flairs - waterproof VHF on me at all times during ocean races in NorCal - been doing that since 2000. The EPIRB would just be another tool on the options list if everything goes pear shaped.

[aA 208]

After the 2000 PAC Cup I generally carry personall flairs - waterproof VHF on me at all times during ocean races in NorCal - been doing that since 2000. The EPIRB would just be another tool on the options list if everything goes pear shaped.

 

how do you carry all that, a backpack? i find that with underlayers, foulies, pfd, harness and lanyard, whistle, strobe, knife, etc i'm maxed out on carrying space and crammed tight enough to look like an osha version of the stay puff marshmallow dude. the mrs., after hearing about our race and then reading yesterday's report from david, is mightily concerned over future offshore endeavours...just trying to figure out how you can carry all that stuff and still be mobile enough to sail

[redboat 51]

I have a boat-specific (full-sized) EPIRB w/integral GPS. My own concern on this point is whether if I snap-rolled my boat, the EPIRB signal would activate and make its way to the satellite.

 

 

 

My concern also. Have a boat specific EPIRB but.........ya never know.

 

Have knives mounted in the cockpit and at the mast. Usually have folding knife in my pants pocket that sometimes doesn't make it to an outer pocket in foulies. Something else to remember.

[ULDBGuy 5]

the mrs., after hearing about our race and then reading yesterday's report from david, is mightily concerned over future offshore endeavours...

Mine gave up a few years ago. Now she just wants to know if I renewed the life insurance.

[Travieso 1]

I had planned to carry a small backpack, but what a great opportunity for some product development for an offshore jacket/harness. On our last outing we were even struggling to find a place to attach a strobe into the standard inflatable/harness combo, let alone a VHF or a GPS....

[U20guy2 9]

After the 2000 PAC Cup I generally carry personall flairs - waterproof VHF on me at all times during ocean races in NorCal - been doing that since 2000. The EPIRB would just be another tool on the options list if everything goes pear shaped.

 

how do you carry all that, a backpack? i find that with underlayers, foulies, pfd, harness and lanyard, whistle, strobe, knife, etc i'm maxed out on carrying space and crammed tight enough to look like an osha version of the stay puff marshmallow dude. the mrs., after hearing about our race and then reading yesterday's report from david, is mightily concerned over future offshore endeavours...just trying to figure out how you can carry all that stuff and still be mobile enough to sail

 

I learned that the hard core sss and many of the long time ocean racers in SF have for the most part moved to sailing with spray tops - paddle jacket type tops with gaskets vs the old school heavy foulweather jackets. I have a spray top with a large pocket on the chest - I keep the hand held there. same with a flair or two. I wear a manual inflatable harness type PFD which I have a knife in a holder lashed to the harness webbing. The other option which is what I did for the PAC Cup - I had a fanny pack on me at all times with that stuff in it.

 

The personal EPRIB not sure where I would keep that but with some messing about I could probably find a good spot for it.

 

Also the inflatable jacket I check the CO2 bottle on it the night before my ocean races when I'm packing up my gear. The 2000 PAC Cup we discovered that one of our bottles had corroded through at the tip and would never have inflated the PFD if it had been needed. Kinda spooked all of us a little. :-)

[Heatwave80 0]

There's a lotta air space in those tanks. I'd bet if the keel was still connected and the boat was full of wawa, it'd still float. Pretty sure it was designed that way. I bet it was designed for the keel sump not to rip out either though.

 

If the keel fell off, then it was not designed to not fall off. There is no reason for a boat of the cost and relaxed performance of the J80 to ever have the keel/sump fail. If the crew can handle the conditions then the boat should also.

Are you saying a design flaw was responsible for the keel falling off? Pretty impressive that you are able to make that determination based on the information posted here. I am as eager as anyone to get more details of the failure and speculate on the cause, but I think your statement is a bit premature.

[jrpytlak 1]

Haven't any of you herd of a ditch bag?

[U20guy2 9]

Haven't any of you herd of a ditch bag?

 

Yep - but most of the time your left treading water with what you happen to have with you. :-)

 

Norcal sailing my biggest fear is getting wiped clean off the boat and seperated from the boat for any number of reasons. I pack the radio - and fairs with the general idea I'll get freaking lucky as hell and make contact with another race boat and snag a ride home.

 

Personal EPRIB would be more of a easy pinpoint find granted delay that would probably be fatal in SF waters, though would still provide more options than not having one. :-)

 

Oh all your personal ditch stuff - landyards attached to something so you don't loose them! Big plus

 

My spray top has a net pock on the chest - VHF never needs to leave the pocket to use it. Cold hands can be a serious issue especially if you drop the one thing that could save your hide.

 

Dave and Dave did a good job. I know that I and most of us could do more to be prepared for something as horrific as what they just went through. Scary stuff