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I can just see lefties banging their heads against walls


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Nothing has higher priority to the left than its ingrained narratives and party cause and party propaganda which is currently a continueum to villify others AS EVILMONGERING TORTURERS etc as we see Obama directing Holder to go after CIA agents.

 

Never mind national security as Obama escalates war in Afghanistan and the lives the CIA may save again ---it is much more important to villify the other party and continue with the leftistnarratives of villification , victimology { the wrong people are victims} and the left narratives .

 

just watch --The villification party propaganda and L narratives are so ingrained and they so dogmatic that they will inadvertantly and unwittingly make the point for you .

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Yeah, it's driving us nuts. We hate it when we're right:

"During the harshest period of my interrogation I gave a lot of false information in order to satisfy what I believed the interrogators wished to hear in order to make the ill-treatment stop. I later told interrogators that their methods were stupid and counterproductive. I'm sure that the false information I was forced to invent in order to make the ill-treatment stop wasted a lot of their time," he said.
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Yeah, it's driving us nuts. We hate it when we're right:

"During the harshest period of my interrogation I gave a lot of false information in order to satisfy what I believed the interrogators wished to hear in order to make the ill-treatment stop. I later told interrogators that their methods were stupid and counterproductive. I'm sure that the false information I was forced to invent in order to make the ill-treatment stop wasted a lot of their time," he said.

 

 

I wonder if they get better results and more accurate information when they use those tactics on child combatants... :rolleyes:

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count on it everytime --they selectively read and hear only that which serves the narratives .

 

The info gained from Mohammed saved potentially thousands of lives and lead to the capture of numerous other AQ operatives bent on murder and killing as many as possible .

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The glaring leftist disconnect --

 

Obama has escalated war in Afghanistan with 30,000 more troops , unless he understands and acts as all war time presidents have which is to to do everything possible to end war sooner and YES including the use interogation to gain valuable intel and info on AQ that save lifes he is sending 30,000 more there while playing politics and putting party propaganda and leftist narratives as his priority first and formoost { not there lives or national interests } .

 

Obama has increased the use of intel and info gained from both allies and captured enemy combatants and the use of drones and bombs to hit them wherever they may be .

 

Obama approves of bombing AQ over the Pakistan border ,--that turns any AQ and 30 or so standing around them into splattering guts in seconds and as Jeff says they become pink mist . Obama does this based on intel and info gained .

 

Obama's handlers and poor judgement from the politicos surrounding and advising him like Holder are intent on going after the CIA for interogation where no one died in time of war which is unprecedented in our nations history .

 

Either we are in war {Obama just sent another 30,000 troops into it } or we are not --you can't have it both ways .

 

The left no longer have the false pretence of selective moralism and often preachy self rightious indignation over the false leftist narratives and villifications of the CIA { never the AQ terrorist mastermind that killed 3,000 } .

 

The left says --its fine for Obama to use intel to instantly kill over the Pakistan border and escalate war --just don't interogate AQ to gain intel and info that saves lives .in time of war .

 

The left is brainwashed by party line propaganda ,villification , victimology {the wrong victims} and the laftist narrative to the point where glaring dissconnects become minor inconveniences to be selectively ignored .

 

They make the point for you . watch again .

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Yeah, it's driving us nuts. We hate it when we're right:

"During the harshest period of my interrogation I gave a lot of false information in order to satisfy what I believed the interrogators wished to hear in order to make the ill-treatment stop. I later told interrogators that their methods were stupid and counterproductive. I'm sure that the false information I was forced to invent in order to make the ill-treatment stop wasted a lot of their time," he said.

 

I love the standard liberal canard that interrogation only elicits false information just to make the second hand smoke stop. One has to suspend credulity to make this plausible. It requires the ridiculous assumptions that A) the intelligence services have zero other sources than this lone victim of their belly slaps, shouts and second hand smoke and B) that the intelligence services have no investigative resources that can cross check, investigate or verify information.

 

A person receiving harsh interrogation would be as afraid to fabricate false information as they would be to withhold valid information. They have no way to know what information the interrogator already has. If they really are desperate to stop a certain treatment they won't risk the consequences of a lie if they know the truth.

 

However, if the purpose was to extract a false confession then I would agree that harsh interrogation won't get the truth but if the goal is strategic information, names, dates, places and plans then they probably work very well.

 

So let me ask you a question. Why did you make this argument against harsh interrogation unless this means you would support these methods if it could be proven they work?

 

It seems to me that a sincere moral objection to harsh interrogation would not be based on an objective measure of its effectiveness.

 

I have a lot more respect for Liberals that say "I'm against harsh interrogations because they are immoral and I don't care if they do work. They are still wrong."

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Yeah, it's driving us nuts. We hate it when we're right:

"During the harshest period of my interrogation I gave a lot of false information in order to satisfy what I believed the interrogators wished to hear in order to make the ill-treatment stop. I later told interrogators that their methods were stupid and counterproductive. I'm sure that the false information I was forced to invent in order to make the ill-treatment stop wasted a lot of their time," he said.

 

I love the standard liberal canard that interrogation only elicits false information just to make the second hand smoke stop. One has to suspend credulity to make this plausible. It requires the ridiculous assumptions that A) the intelligence services have zero other sources than this lone victim of their belly slaps, shouts and second hand smoke and B) that the intelligence services have no investigative resources that can cross check, investigate or verify information.

 

A person receiving harsh interrogation would be as afraid to fabricate false information as they would be to withhold valid information. They have no way to know what information the interrogator already has. If they really are desperate to stop a certain treatment they won't risk the consequences of a lie if they know the truth.

 

However, if the purpose was to extract a false confession then I would agree that harsh interrogation won't get the truth but if the goal is strategic information, names, dates, places and plans then they probably work very well.

 

So let me ask you a question. Why did you make this argument against harsh interrogation unless this means you would support these methods if it could be proven they work?

 

It seems to me that a sincere moral objection to harsh interrogation would not be based on an objective measure of its effectiveness.

 

I have a lot more respect for Liberals that say "I'm against harsh interrogations because they are immoral and I don't care if they do work. They are still wrong."

 

It cracks me up when people call folks like Colin Powell

and Petraeus and the FBI liberals to defend Dick Cheney..

 

It's amazing to watch how well your right knees have been

trained. Pure spinal refex, not one single synapse above the neck

firing.

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So let me ask you a question. Why did you make this argument against harsh interrogation unless this means you would support these methods if it could be proven they work?

 

It seems to me that a sincere moral objection to harsh interrogation would not be based on an objective measure of its effectiveness.

 

I have a lot more respect for Liberals that say "I'm against harsh interrogations because they are immoral and I don't care if they do work. They are still wrong."

If giving the terrorists hookers, blow and a gob of money would extract the same information, you would support that too? If it saved lives?

 

Face it, this torture thing is more about exacting retribution than it is extracting intel. I really can't believe anyone would support it.

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So let me ask you a question. Why did you make this argument against harsh interrogation unless this means you would support these methods if it could be proven they work?

 

It seems to me that a sincere moral objection to harsh interrogation would not be based on an objective measure of its effectiveness.

 

I have a lot more respect for Liberals that say "I'm against harsh interrogations because they are immoral and I don't care if they do work. They are still wrong."

If giving the terrorists hookers, blow and a gob of money would extract the same information, you would support that too? If it saved lives?

 

Face it, this torture thing is more about exacting retribution than it is extracting intel. I really can't believe anyone would support it.

 

I'm sure Dick and some of his buddies really believe that torture

works. Thing of it is, it does sometimes, and that fact can't be disputed.

 

But that's not the whole story, not even a quarter of it. Ronnie

got it when he signed the Convention. I really think he did.

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Get with the topic guys, this is about interrogation. The only people talking about torture are the last two posters. Just love to twist the subject, don't cha. By the way, if hookers, blow and cash would have gotten results, guaranteed we'd have used them as well. ;)

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Get with the topic guys, this is about interrogation. The only people talking about torture are the last two posters. Just love to twist the subject, don't cha. By the way, if hookers, blow and cash would have gotten results, guaranteed we'd have used them as well. ;)

 

You mean you actually accept John Yoos definition of torture?

 

I'm sticking to the one we used on Japanese generals and

what John McCain exerienced. Call me old-fashioned. Some

call that being conservative....

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So let me ask you a question. Why did you make this argument against harsh interrogation unless this means you would support these methods if it could be proven they work?

 

It seems to me that a sincere moral objection to harsh interrogation would not be based on an objective measure of its effectiveness.

 

I have a lot more respect for Liberals that say "I'm against harsh interrogations because they are immoral and I don't care if they do work. They are still wrong."

If giving the terrorists hookers, blow and a gob of money would extract the same information, you would support that too? If it saved lives?

 

Face it, this torture thing is more about exacting retribution than it is extracting intel. I really can't believe anyone would support it.

 

 

Yeah you are right. The thousands of vicious fire-bombings and retributions against Muslims and mosques across America by redneck bible thumping Republican goons has been a bit excessive.

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Get with the topic guys, this is about interrogation. The only people talking about torture are the last two posters. Just love to twist the subject, don't cha. By the way, if hookers, blow and cash would have gotten results, guaranteed we'd have used them as well. ;)

 

You mean you actually accept John Yoos definition of torture?

 

I'm sticking to the one we used on Japanese generals and

what John McCain exerienced. Call me old-fashioned. Some

call that being conservative....

 

You know I love it that a technique like waterboarding is what you lable torture. Obviously it is the degree to which it is applied that would be used to define it as torture or not.

 

If I slip a bamboo shoot under your nail without adequate pressure to break the skin, that, under your definition, would be torture. It is after all "bamboo shoot under the nail".

 

The fact is that the waterboarding applied to this piece of shit was adequate enough to cause him to give information that saved lives. You were not there. Was it to the degree that we would call it torture or inhumane? Was it the same as we apply to our own special forces in training? If so, I doubt that it would rise to the brutality of what the Japanese or Vietnamese did.

 

Cheers,

KG

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Get with the topic guys, this is about interrogation. The only people talking about torture are the last two posters. Just love to twist the subject, don't cha. By the way, if hookers, blow and cash would have gotten results, guaranteed we'd have used them as well. ;)

 

You mean you actually accept John Yoos definition of torture?

 

I'm sticking to the one we used on Japanese generals and

what John McCain exerienced. Call me old-fashioned. Some

call that being conservative....

 

You know I love it that a technique like waterboarding is what you lable torture. Obviously it is the degree to which it is applied that would be used to define it as torture or not.

 

If I slip a bamboo shoot under your nail without adequate pressure to break the skin, that, under your definition, would be torture. It is after all "bamboo shoot under the nail".

 

The fact is that the waterboarding applied to this piece of shit was adequate enough to cause him to give information that saved lives. You were not there. Was it to the degree that we would call it torture or inhumane? Was it the same as we apply to our own special forces in training? If so, I doubt that it would rise to the brutality of what the Japanese or Vietnamese did.

 

Cheers,

KG

 

You weren't there either KAG. Quit making things up.

 

There sure were a lot of witches in Salem though...no disputing

that. Hard to imagine how many people were saved from

witchcraft by those brave inquisitors...

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Yeah, it's driving us nuts. We hate it when we're right:

"During the harshest period of my interrogation I gave a lot of false information in order to satisfy what I believed the interrogators wished to hear in order to make the ill-treatment stop. I later told interrogators that their methods were stupid and counterproductive. I'm sure that the false information I was forced to invent in order to make the ill-treatment stop wasted a lot of their time," he said.

 

I love the standard liberal canard that interrogation only elicits false information just to make the second hand smoke stop. One has to suspend credulity to make this plausible. It requires the ridiculous assumptions that A) the intelligence services have zero other sources than this lone victim of their belly slaps, shouts and second hand smoke and B) that the intelligence services have no investigative resources that can cross check, investigate or verify information.

 

A person receiving harsh interrogation would be as afraid to fabricate false information as they would be to withhold valid information. They have no way to know what information the interrogator already has. If they really are desperate to stop a certain treatment they won't risk the consequences of a lie if they know the truth.

 

However, if the purpose was to extract a false confession then I would agree that harsh interrogation won't get the truth but if the goal is strategic information, names, dates, places and plans then they probably work very well.

 

So let me ask you a question. Why did you make this argument against harsh interrogation unless this means you would support these methods if it could be proven they work?

 

It seems to me that a sincere moral objection to harsh interrogation would not be based on an objective measure of its effectiveness.

 

I have a lot more respect for Liberals that say "I'm against harsh interrogations because they are immoral and I don't care if they do work. They are still wrong."

 

It cracks me up when people call folks like Colin Powell

and Petraeus and the FBI liberals to defend Dick Cheney..

 

It's amazing to watch how well your right knees have been

trained. Pure spinal refex, not one single synapse above the neck

firing.

 

 

I can understand someone with your mentality projecting along these lines attributing everything to political party motives .

 

There are serious people that really don't give a fuck about party politics Mark , their main concern is national security and saving lives .

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what the helll is wrong? Just cause the wad cooperated doesn't make torture acceptable. Seriously -- there is right and there is wrong; and there is no excuse for wrong.

Sure there is. It happened on the right team's watch. For the Team Players, it's not a matter of wrong and right, it's a matter of left and right.

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what the helll is wrong? Just cause the wad cooperated doesn't make torture acceptable. Seriously -- there is right and there is wrong; and there is no excuse for wrong.

 

Except you can not label an action right or wrong without context.

 

Is killing someone wrong?

 

It is if you are also robbing the person at gun point.

 

Is it wrong , however, to kill the person holding you at gun point to rob you.

 

Is it wrong to blow up a school bus with an IED?

 

Is it wrong to water-board the bomb-maker to find out where other bombs might be or where his accomplices are making them?

 

Was Harry S. Truman a mass murdering war criminal or a hero who intentionally killed tens of thousands of civilians using the excuse that it might save the lives of an uncertain number of American soldiers.

 

"there is right and there is wrong; and there is no excuse for wrong" - simpleton thinking

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By the way, if hookers, blow and cash would have gotten results, guaranteed we'd have used them as well. ;)

Shouldn't we have tried that before we did mock executions? It would have been more fun, for everyone involved and stimulated the ecomony.

 

PS, the soviets used those methods during the cold war.

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A father sees a man kidnap his twin daughters. later when everyone is out searching the father sees the same man dragging one of his daughters into the bush. He picks up a club and catches the man digging a grave and pops him in the head. With the kidnapper groggy the father tells his daughter to run to the car and call 911.

 

What acts of torture would you consider "WRONG" for this father to use in an effort try and locate his second child?

 

Smashing his hands with the shovel?

 

Severing his fingers and or toes with the blade of the shovel?

 

Placing him in the grave he dug and burying him alive?

 

Castrating him with the shovel?

 

lighting his hair on fire?

 

holding his head under water?

 

gouge his eyes out?

 

 

Personally I would not consider anything the father did to be either torture of wrong.

 

Change the scenario slightly and have the father find both daughters to be dead after he whacks the kidnapper.

 

In that case any attack not related to restraining the kidnapper would be revenge and wrong. That does not mean I'd vote to convict him of a crime.

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what the helll is wrong? Just cause the wad cooperated doesn't make torture acceptable. Seriously -- there is right and there is wrong; and there is no excuse for wrong.

 

Except you can not label an action right or wrong without context.

 

Is killing someone wrong?

 

It is if you are also robbing the person at gun point.

 

Is it wrong , however, to kill the person holding you at gun point to rob you.

 

Is it wrong to blow up a school bus with an IED?

 

Is it wrong to water-board the bomb-maker to find out where other bombs might be or where his accomplices are making them?

 

Was Harry S. Truman a mass murdering war criminal or a hero who intentionally killed tens of thousands of civilians using the excuse that it might save the lives of an uncertain number of American soldiers.

 

"there is right and there is wrong; and there is no excuse for wrong" - simpleton thinking

 

 

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what the helll is wrong? Just cause the wad cooperated doesn't make torture acceptable. Seriously -- there is right and there is wrong; and there is no excuse for wrong.

 

Except you can not label an action right or wrong without context.

 

Is killing someone wrong?

 

It is if you are also robbing the person at gun point.

 

Is it wrong , however, to kill the person holding you at gun point to rob you.

 

Is it wrong to blow up a school bus with an IED?

 

Is it wrong to water-board the bomb-maker to find out where other bombs might be or where his accomplices are making them?

 

Was Harry S. Truman a mass murdering war criminal or a hero who intentionally killed tens of thousands of civilians using the excuse that it might save the lives of an uncertain number of American soldiers.

 

"there is right and there is wrong; and there is no excuse for wrong" - simpleton thinking

 

You are a jackass.

 

Right is right, wrong is wrong. Don't go all asymetric on us you pussy.

 

Its your fucking soul on trial you ass. If you have to explain how complicated it was, then you are probably fucked. If you did it with Malice in your heart you are fucked.

 

 

Take your sea lawyer republican bullshit and shove it up your ass.

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what the helll is wrong? Just cause the wad cooperated doesn't make torture acceptable. Seriously -- there is right and there is wrong; and there is no excuse for wrong.

 

Except you can not label an action right or wrong without context.

No shit? I must have missed that part of Exodus 20. "Thou shalt not kill, except in the right context."

Is killing someone wrong?

Yes.

It is if you are also robbing the person at gun point.

Yes.

Is it wrong , however, to kill the person holding you at gun point to rob you.

Yes, it is. To take the opposite position is to say that your material possessions are of greater value than a human life.

Is it wrong to blow up a school bus with an IED?

Yes.

Is it wrong to water-board the bomb-maker to find out where other bombs might be or where his accomplices are making them?

Yes.

Was Harry S. Truman a mass murdering war criminal or a hero who intentionally killed tens of thousands of civilians using the excuse that it might save the lives of an uncertain number of American soldiers.

The prevailing thinking seems to depend on which side of the bomb sight you were on, eh?

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Hey these make up scenarios are fun.

 

Two interrogators are questioning a subject. The subject is not cooperating. There is a ticking timebomb.

One interrogator says to the other, this guy is a real homophobe. I think we can break him. But one of us has to give him a blow job. Since I'm the senior interrogator, you do it. There's only a few hours, drop and suck his dick.

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Hey these make up scenarios are fun.

 

Two interrogators are questioning a subject. The subject is not cooperating. There is a ticking timebomb.

One interrogator says to the other, this guy is a real homophobe. I think we can break him. But one of us has to give him a blow job. Since I'm the senior interrogator, you do it. There's only a few hours, drop and suck his dick.

Where do you think you are, an airport bathroom?

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There are serious people that really don't give a fuck about party politics Mark , their main concern is national security and saving lives .

 

Are you one of those people Carl?

 

No thank god --I,m talking about people who serve the nation in intel that put their lives on the line regardless of who is president and which party controls congress .

 

Holder Emanuel and other party first and formost imbisiles are providing bad advice and poor politically motivated judgements in convincing Obama to proceed with CIA "investigations" .

 

It is very demoral izing for those who serve and many now want out of the CIA because they are being potentially used and lives destroyed by idiotic party narratives {they are evil toturers } and willing party line zealots to mimic and paste party line blather each day that they are fed by msnbc and party propaganda sources that reinforce it all . Talk about 'DUMBING DOWN OF US ALL "

 

are YOU one of those people Mark?

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Get with the topic guys, this is about interrogation. The only people talking about torture are the last two posters. Just love to twist the subject, don't cha. By the way, if hookers, blow and cash would have gotten results, guaranteed we'd have used them as well. ;)

 

You mean you actually accept John Yoos definition of torture?

 

I'm sticking to the one we used on Japanese generals and

what John McCain exerienced. Call me old-fashioned. Some

call that being conservative....

 

You know I love it that a technique like waterboarding is what you lable torture. Obviously it is the degree to which it is applied that would be used to define it as torture or not.

 

If I slip a bamboo shoot under your nail without adequate pressure to break the skin, that, under your definition, would be torture. It is after all "bamboo shoot under the nail".

 

The fact is that the waterboarding applied to this piece of shit was adequate enough to cause him to give information that saved lives. You were not there. Was it to the degree that we would call it torture or inhumane? Was it the same as we apply to our own special forces in training? If so, I doubt that it would rise to the brutality of what the Japanese or Vietnamese did.

 

Cheers,

KG

 

You weren't there either KAG. Quit making things up.

 

There sure were a lot of witches in Salem though...no disputing

that. Hard to imagine how many people were saved from

witchcraft by those brave inquisitors...

 

Mark...that was probably the dumbest response I have seen from you yet....what, pray tell, did I "make up"?

 

Japanese and Vietnamese used waterboarding as a means to kill, not torture to extract information. They did it for fun. The brutality of the Japanese is well documented. Don't try to compare our waterboarding method used on mass killer to get information with the wholesale slaughter of prisoners.

 

The term waterboading is a method. Torture is a degree of using that method.

 

Cheers,

KG

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what the helll is wrong? Just cause the wad cooperated doesn't make torture acceptable. Seriously -- there is right and there is wrong; and there is no excuse for wrong.

 

Except you can not label an action right or wrong without context.

 

Is killing someone wrong?

 

It is if you are also robbing the person at gun point.

 

Is it wrong , however, to kill the person holding you at gun point to rob you.

 

Is it wrong to blow up a school bus with an IED?

 

Is it wrong to water-board the bomb-maker to find out where other bombs might be or where his accomplices are making them?

 

Was Harry S. Truman a mass murdering war criminal or a hero who intentionally killed tens of thousands of civilians using the excuse that it might save the lives of an uncertain number of American soldiers.

 

"there is right and there is wrong; and there is no excuse for wrong" - simpleton thinking

 

You are a jackass.

 

Right is right, wrong is wrong. Don't go all asymetric on us you pussy.

 

Its your fucking soul on trial you ass. If you have to explain how complicated it was, then you are probably fucked. If you did it with Malice in your heart you are fucked.

 

 

Take your sea lawyer republican bullshit and shove it up your ass.

 

 

Shit....are you having cocktails with Bull Gayturd?? :blink:

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No thank god --I,m talking about people who serve the nation

 

When you say "serve the nation", what do you mean by that? Because to my way of thinking, serving the nation implicitly means obeying the laws that define the nation. How do you see it?

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what the helll is wrong? Just cause the wad cooperated doesn't make torture acceptable. Seriously -- there is right and there is wrong; and there is no excuse for wrong.

 

Except you can not label an action right or wrong without context.

No shit? I must have missed that part of Exodus 20. "Thou shalt not kill, except in the right context."

Is killing someone wrong?

Yes.

It is if you are also robbing the person at gun point.

Yes.

Is it wrong , however, to kill the person holding you at gun point to rob you.

Yes, it is. To take the opposite position is to say that your material possessions are of greater value than a human life.

Is it wrong to blow up a school bus with an IED?

Yes.

Is it wrong to water-board the bomb-maker to find out where other bombs might be or where his accomplices are making them?

Yes.

Was Harry S. Truman a mass murdering war criminal or a hero who intentionally killed tens of thousands of civilians using the excuse that it might save the lives of an uncertain number of American soldiers.

The prevailing thinking seems to depend on which side of the bomb sight you were on, eh?

 

 

Political party Absolution for me but not for thee ?

 

In war people are killed --Obama has escalated war in Afghanistan , he has sent 30,000 more troops there --war is kill or be killed so please spare us the preachy absolutism and self rightious politically motivated morality .

 

You are so brainwashed by the villification of party propaganda and L narratives like MOVE ONs Bush =Hitler and solys fav. neocons are new Nazis that you fail to grasp the reality now .

 

Obama approves of using intel and bombing suspect AQ in Afghanistan and over the Pak. border . The results are they turn them and 30 or others around them into splattered guts and pink mist .

 

It is war --the only options in war are bad or worse than bad --nothing is moral in the confines you only apply to others --not Obama .

 

I,ll make it simple --if you could have stopped the 20 AQ hijackers THAT KILLED 3,000 on 9-11 by pushing them out of the plane saving all the pasengers and others lives would you ?

 

Or would you cowardly sit there and allow others to die needlessly and preach false absolute morality .

 

This is basic stuff --It amazes me how easily people are duped by party propaganda into absolutism for others but never apply the same standards to their precious political party , Obama ,or themselves realistically .

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what the helll is wrong? Just cause the wad cooperated doesn't make torture acceptable. Seriously -- there is right and there is wrong; and there is no excuse for wrong.

 

Except you can not label an action right or wrong without context.

 

Is killing someone wrong?

 

It is if you are also robbing the person at gun point.

 

Is it wrong , however, to kill the person holding you at gun point to rob you.

 

Is it wrong to blow up a school bus with an IED?

 

Is it wrong to water-board the bomb-maker to find out where other bombs might be or where his accomplices are making them?

 

Was Harry S. Truman a mass murdering war criminal or a hero who intentionally killed tens of thousands of civilians using the excuse that it might save the lives of an uncertain number of American soldiers.

 

"there is right and there is wrong; and there is no excuse for wrong" - simpleton thinking

 

You are a jackass.

 

Right is right, wrong is wrong. Don't go all asymetric on us you pussy.

 

Its your fucking soul on trial you ass. If you have to explain how complicated it was, then you are probably fucked. If you did it with Malice in your heart you are fucked.

 

 

Take your sea lawyer republican bullshit and shove it up your ass.

 

 

Shit....are you having cocktails with Bull Gayturd?? :blink:

Nope. The only rationalized hurting I can rationalize is the hurting of those that rationalize hurting. They have already done enough damage to our countries good name.

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Get with the topic guys, this is about interrogation. The only people talking about torture are the last two posters. Just love to twist the subject, don't cha. By the way, if hookers, blow and cash would have gotten results, guaranteed we'd have used them as well. ;)

 

You mean you actually accept John Yoos definition of torture?

 

I'm sticking to the one we used on Japanese generals and

what John McCain exerienced. Call me old-fashioned. Some

call that being conservative....

 

You know I love it that a technique like waterboarding is what you lable torture. Obviously it is the degree to which it is applied that would be used to define it as torture or not.

 

If I slip a bamboo shoot under your nail without adequate pressure to break the skin, that, under your definition, would be torture. It is after all "bamboo shoot under the nail".

 

The fact is that the waterboarding applied to this piece of shit was adequate enough to cause him to give information that saved lives. You were not there. Was it to the degree that we would call it torture or inhumane? Was it the same as we apply to our own special forces in training? If so, I doubt that it would rise to the brutality of what the Japanese or Vietnamese did.

 

Cheers,

KG

 

You weren't there either KAG. Quit making things up.

 

There sure were a lot of witches in Salem though...no disputing

that. Hard to imagine how many people were saved from

witchcraft by those brave inquisitors...

 

Mark...that was probably the dumbest response I have seen from you yet....what, pray tell, did I "make up"?

 

Japanese and Vietnamese used waterboarding as a means to kill, not torture to extract information. They did it for fun. The brutality of the Japanese is well documented. Don't try to compare our waterboarding method used on mass killer to get information with the wholesale slaughter of prisoners.

 

The term waterboading is a method. Torture is a degree of using that method.

 

Cheers,

KG

 

There is no evidence that any information we gained saved any lives.

You just made it up. Or the people you are aping did.

 

I suggest you look up the Convention Against Torture for some

definition and the prohibition on using fear as a rational for it's use.

 

Maybe you will listen to a fellow Navy man,

 

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You mean dictatorial regimes and odious dictators and AQ DON'T really like us ? gasp -HOW AWFULL .

 

Much of the world hated us when Clinton was prez and much of it still does {perhaps more } now that O is [prez . Read some history --the 9-11 attacks were planned 5 years in advance {started after the first attempt failed } OBL cited Clintons bombing of Muslims in Iraq to hide his immoral acts in the White house with young intern as one reason for the 9-11 attacks and hating us .

 

You can't have it both ways --Bomb AQ on sight and splatter their guts and 30 others around them on the wall based on suspect intel but just don't pour water down the nose of Sheik Mohamed the mastermind of 9-11 to get info that will save thousands of lives and end war sooner ?

 

either condemb the acts of Obama in war and demand immediate withdrawl of all troops including the 30,000 extra he just added then accept responcibilty for potentially a million deathes in the void left afterward that the 9-11 comm and every expert predicts would occur --total instability and regional wars .

 

Which is it ?

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You mean dictatorial regimes and odious dictators and AQ DON'T really like us ? gasp -HOW AWFULL .

 

Much of the world hated us when Clinton was prez and much of it still does {perhaps more } now that O is [prez . Read some history --the 9-11 attacks were planned 5 years in advance {started after the first attempt failed } OBL cited Clintons bombing of Muslims in Iraq to hide his immoral acts in the White house with young intern as one reason for the 9-11 attacks and hating us .

 

You can't have it both ways --Bomb AQ on sight and splatter their guts and 30 others around them on the wall based on suspect intel but just don't pour water down the nose of Sheik Mohamed the mastermind of 9-11 to get info that will save thousands of lives and end war sooner ?

 

either condemb the acts of Obama in war and demand immediate withdrawl of all troops including the 30,000 extra he just added then accept responcibilty for potentially a million deathes in the void left afterward that the 9-11 comm and every expert predicts would occur --total instability and regional wars .

 

Which is it ?

 

 

You moron -- they hate us regardless of democratic or republican administration. They hate us cause we have kept Israel in business all these years. As long as we keep taking sides against them they will keep trying to fuck with us. Only a twat would twist that truth into a political party agenda.

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Mark says --

 

{There is no evidence that any information we gained saved any lives.

You just made it up. Or the people you are aping did. }

 

 

 

Mark --you really should stop watching msnbc and swearing by every word maddow and Oberman tell you --try reading a variety of diverse sources of info to get facts --here is the Washington Post {often with a l bias} on the subject today ---and perhaps you won't look as much a complete dupe and party tool .

 

The Washington Post leads today with an extraordinary story cutting against the conclusions of a series of recent government and media reports to cast as straight news — with a few hedges and qualifications — that waterboarding and sleep deprivation worked like a charm to turn Kalid Sheik Mohammed from an enemy into an "asset."

 

The story — which seems sure to provoke an intense reaction from the many critics of President Bush's interrogation policies, and comes just before Dick Cheney's appearance, taped Friday, on Fox News Sunday — bears all the marks of some complicated internal discussions over at the Post, which has been on the defensive since its reporting in the run up to the Iraq war. A sign of the internal focus on the piece: The story — appearing as the paper's top story on an off day, a Saturday — has three major bylines and just a tagline from national security reporter Walter Pincus.

 

The story begins:

 

After enduring the CIA's harshest interrogation methods and spending more than a year in the agency's secret prisons, Khalid Sheik Mohammed stood before U.S. intelligence officers in a makeshift lecture hall, leading what they called "terrorist tutorials."

 

In 2005 and 2006, the bearded, pudgy man who calls himself the mastermind of the Sept. 11, 2001, attacks discussed a wide variety of subjects, including Greek philosophy and al-Qaeda dogma. In one instance, he scolded a listener for poor note-taking and his inability to recall details of an earlier lecture.

 

Speaking in English, Mohammed "seemed to relish the opportunity, sometimes for hours on end, to discuss the inner workings of al-Qaeda and the group's plans, ideology and operatives," said one of two sources who described the sessions, speaking on the condition of anonymity because much information about detainee confinement remains classified. "He'd even use a chalkboard at times."

 

These scenes provide previously unpublicized details about the transformation of the man known to U.S. officials as KSM from an avowed and truculent enemy of the United States into what the CIA called its "preeminent source" on al-Qaeda. This reversal occurred after Mohammed was subjected to simulated drowning and prolonged sleep deprivation, among other harsh interrogation techniques.

 

Torture foes have argued that Mohammed was eager to tell his story and had, in fact, revealed many of his "secrets" in an Al Jazeera interview before his capture. This story seems to channel the CIA's pushback against, particularly, Attorney General Eric Holder.

 

 

 

 

 

and a follow up

 

WaPo vindicates Cheney.

 

Per Politico, WaPo describes "the transformation of [Khalid Sheik Mohammed] from an avowed and truculent enemy of the United States into what the CIA called its 'preeminent source' on al-Qaeda":

 

This reversal occurred after Mohammed was subjected to simulated drowning and prolonged sleep deprivation, among other harsh interrogation techniques.

Critics of "harsh interrogation techniques" — they, of course, call it torture — bolster their moral arguments with the pragmatic argument that it doesn't even work. How unusual it is for the media to disillusion us about that and force the moralists to get by on moral ideals alone!

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oh, well if Torture works thats a whole different story. "Lets use it" I say! Cause that makes whats wrong right!

 

I hope to meet all you torture advocates some day and see how you like it. Any volunteers wanna get started right away?

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what the helll is wrong? Just cause the wad cooperated doesn't make torture acceptable. Seriously -- there is right and there is wrong; and there is no excuse for wrong.

 

Except you can not label an action right or wrong without context.

No shit? I must have missed that part of Exodus 20. "Thou shalt not kill, except in the right context."

Is killing someone wrong?

Yes.

It is if you are also robbing the person at gun point.

Yes.

Is it wrong , however, to kill the person holding you at gun point to rob you.

Yes, it is. To take the opposite position is to say that your material possessions are of greater value than a human life.

Is it wrong to blow up a school bus with an IED?

Yes.

Is it wrong to water-board the bomb-maker to find out where other bombs might be or where his accomplices are making them?

Yes.

Was Harry S. Truman a mass murdering war criminal or a hero who intentionally killed tens of thousands of civilians using the excuse that it might save the lives of an uncertain number of American soldiers.

The prevailing thinking seems to depend on which side of the bomb sight you were on, eh?

 

You gave a clear yes to all the others why the song and dance for Harry?

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You mean dictatorial regimes and odious dictators and AQ DON'T really like us ? gasp -HOW AWFULL .

 

Much of the world hated us when Clinton was prez and much of it still does {perhaps more } now that O is [prez . Read some history --the 9-11 attacks were planned 5 years in advance {started after the first attempt failed } OBL cited Clintons bombing of Muslims in Iraq to hide his immoral acts in the White house with young intern as one reason for the 9-11 attacks and hating us .

 

You can't have it both ways --Bomb AQ on sight and splatter their guts and 30 others around them on the wall based on suspect intel but just don't pour water down the nose of Sheik Mohamed the mastermind of 9-11 to get info that will save thousands of lives and end war sooner ?

 

either condemb the acts of Obama in war and demand immediate withdrawl of all troops including the 30,000 extra he just added then accept responcibilty for potentially a million deathes in the void left afterward that the 9-11 comm and every expert predicts would occur --total instability and regional wars .

 

Which is it ?

 

 

You moron -- they hate us regardless of democratic or republican administration. They hate us cause we have kept Israel in business all these years. As long as we keep taking sides against them they will keep trying to fuck with us. Only a twat would twist that truth into a political party agenda.

 

That is what I stated --they have always hated ,and not just Jews either .

 

 

Read some history "moran" both existed in the ME for centuries and many co exist in other parts of the ME and major cities for generations .

 

It is no worse than other parts of the world --take the war torn former Yugoslavia that Clinton interveined into ie -- 3 basic ethnic groups at each others throats , Serbs Croats Masadonians etc.

Only Marshal Tito kept them at bay --once he died all hell broke loose . Ethnic cleasing --mass genocide went on for nearly 10 years at Europes doorstep yet nothing effective was done .

 

Milosevic was first courted by Clinton but latter imprisoned for war crimes against humanity and died in a EU prison awaiting trial .

 

Albright {an Eastern EU herself originally} finally convinced Clinton to take military action , he commanded general Clark to start a 76 day bombing campaign {without congressional approval unlike Bush in Iraq } followed by ground troops latter under NATO auspices .

 

Pleae tell us in your absolute self rightious politically motivated way --was Clinton wrong to stop the genocide and ethnic slaughter by bombing and latter gr troops {still there by the way } and KOSOVO still a mess .

 

Isn't killing others always morally wrong ?

 

An interesting article for you

 

Temporary Doves

Why are the architects of Kosovo so down on Gulf War II?

 

http://www.reason.com/news/show/29124.html

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didn't work on him but worked on Sheik Muhamed the mastermind of 9-11 --He provided intel and info that saved countless lives for our troops and allies .

 

So goes interogation and intel gathering .

 

You really need to stop selectively pasting only those things that fit the L narrative and party propaganda --msnbc will rot your brain --such is the nature of pure political party propaganda playing on emotions and irrational fears with self rightious politicaly induced false morality .

 

Bush =hitler --bush =liar --bush = stupid --bush is evil pathological etc etc etc--the left force fed and believe every word they often regurgitated here .

 

what an extremist party line propagandist and fool

 

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Jack/Carl --

 

Please let me know your availablity when I can shove your heads in a public toilet (with a pinched loaf) and flush until you cry like the bitches you are. After all, according to you crybabies , torture is no big deal. But it doesn't matter; cause neither of you will accept my offer to take a swirly like a man.

 

Oh, and tonight, at 2am, wake up n a cold sweat and ask yourselves if you really are the pencil dick pussies we all think you are. Cause you are. And you know it. And as you toss and turn and worry, try not to think about 12 year old boys; like most right wing jack offs do.

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Jack/Carl --

 

Please let me know your availablity when I can shove your heads in a public toilet (with a pinched loaf) and flush until you cry like the bitches you are. After all, according to you crybabies , torture is no big deal. But it doesn't matter; cause neither of you will accept my offer to take a swirly like a man.

 

Oh, and tonight, at 2am, wake up n a cold sweat and ask yourselves if you really are the pencil dick pussies we all think you are. Cause you are. And you know it. And as you toss and turn and worry, try not to think about 12 year old boys; like most right wing jack offs do.

 

msnbc has rotted your brain and L narrative zombies ate it .

 

If you or any were ever involved in mass murder and killing 3,000 the least I would be inclined to do is pour water down your nose you ignorant brainwashed self rightious imbisile --you still parrot the same party propaganda drivel --I,ve news It's out of fashion now , so is Micheal Moore and his fakeumentory -and all your ignorant party line cliches's .

 

Mark or any party line self rightious preachy absolute false politically motivated selective morality type ---was Clinton immoral in bombing in the Balkans killing thousands there in 76 days straight of it ?

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Jack/Carl --

 

Please let me know your availablity when I can shove your heads in a public toilet (with a pinched loaf) and flush until you cry like the bitches you are. After all, according to you crybabies , torture is no big deal. But it doesn't matter; cause neither of you will accept my offer to take a swirly like a man.

 

Oh, and tonight, at 2am, wake up n a cold sweat and ask yourselves if you really are the pencil dick pussies we all think you are. Cause you are. And you know it. And as you toss and turn and worry, try not to think about 12 year old boys; like most right wing jack offs do.

 

msnbc has rotted your brain and L narrative zombies ate it .

 

If you or any were ever involved in mass murder and killing 3,000 the least I would be inclined to do is pour water down your nose you ignorant brainwashed self rightious imbisile --you still parrot the same party propaganda drivel --I,ve news It's out of fashion now , so is Micheal Moore and his fakeumentory -and all your ignorant party line cliches's .

 

Mark or any party line self rightious preachy absolute false politically motivated selective morality type ---was Clinton immoral in bombing in the Balkans killing thousands there in 76 days straight of it ?

Yes, but I don't think about little boys at 2am like you -- you fuckin twat. BTW, the subject is torture, not war.

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Get with the topic guys, this is about interrogation. The only people talking about torture are the last two posters. Just love to twist the subject, don't cha. By the way, if hookers, blow and cash would have gotten results, guaranteed we'd have used them as well. ;)

 

You mean you actually accept John Yoos definition of torture?

 

I'm sticking to the one we used on Japanese generals and

what John McCain exerienced. Call me old-fashioned. Some

call that being conservative....

 

You know I love it that a technique like waterboarding is what you lable torture. Obviously it is the degree to which it is applied that would be used to define it as torture or not.

 

If I slip a bamboo shoot under your nail without adequate pressure to break the skin, that, under your definition, would be torture. It is after all "bamboo shoot under the nail".

 

The fact is that the waterboarding applied to this piece of shit was adequate enough to cause him to give information that saved lives. You were not there. Was it to the degree that we would call it torture or inhumane? Was it the same as we apply to our own special forces in training? If so, I doubt that it would rise to the brutality of what the Japanese or Vietnamese did.

 

Cheers,

KG

 

You weren't there either KAG. Quit making things up.

 

There sure were a lot of witches in Salem though...no disputing

that. Hard to imagine how many people were saved from

witchcraft by those brave inquisitors...

 

Mark...that was probably the dumbest response I have seen from you yet....what, pray tell, did I "make up"?

 

Japanese and Vietnamese used waterboarding as a means to kill, not torture to extract information. They did it for fun. The brutality of the Japanese is well documented. Don't try to compare our waterboarding method used on mass killer to get information with the wholesale slaughter of prisoners.

 

The term waterboading is a method. Torture is a degree of using that method.

 

Cheers,

KG

 

There is no evidence that any information we gained saved any lives.

You just made it up. Or the people you are aping did.

 

I suggest you look up the Convention Against Torture for some

definition and the prohibition on using fear as a rational for it's use.

 

Maybe you will listen to a fellow Navy man,

 

 

Focus on the witches Mark...that was lame.

 

I respect McCain's opinion, he sure has experienced torture at its worse.

 

We waterboard Navy Seals. We do it to make them aware of what may be coming down the pike. Do we stop?

 

As for whether lives were saved or not, would you like to find out what may have happened if they did not gain the intel regarding Heathrow? I don't.

 

Violence of the category of a 9/11 requires extrordinary measures to prevent. I think another attack has been prevented during the Bush years. The methods used may be controversial, maybe not. Right and wrong, interesting concept in the arena of killing, don't you think? Some things maybe should just remain a dirty little secret.

 

Cheers,

KG

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Get with the topic guys, this is about interrogation. The only people talking about torture are the last two posters. Just love to twist the subject, don't cha. By the way, if hookers, blow and cash would have gotten results, guaranteed we'd have used them as well. ;)

 

You mean you actually accept John Yoos definition of torture?

 

I'm sticking to the one we used on Japanese generals and

what John McCain exerienced. Call me old-fashioned. Some

call that being conservative....

 

You know I love it that a technique like waterboarding is what you lable torture. Obviously it is the degree to which it is applied that would be used to define it as torture or not.

 

If I slip a bamboo shoot under your nail without adequate pressure to break the skin, that, under your definition, would be torture. It is after all "bamboo shoot under the nail".

 

The fact is that the waterboarding applied to this piece of shit was adequate enough to cause him to give information that saved lives. You were not there. Was it to the degree that we would call it torture or inhumane? Was it the same as we apply to our own special forces in training? If so, I doubt that it would rise to the brutality of what the Japanese or Vietnamese did.

 

Cheers,

KG

 

You weren't there either KAG. Quit making things up.

 

There sure were a lot of witches in Salem though...no disputing

that. Hard to imagine how many people were saved from

witchcraft by those brave inquisitors...

 

Mark...that was probably the dumbest response I have seen from you yet....what, pray tell, did I "make up"?

 

Japanese and Vietnamese used waterboarding as a means to kill, not torture to extract information. They did it for fun. The brutality of the Japanese is well documented. Don't try to compare our waterboarding method used on mass killer to get information with the wholesale slaughter of prisoners.

 

The term waterboading is a method. Torture is a degree of using that method.

 

Cheers,

KG

 

There is no evidence that any information we gained saved any lives.

You just made it up. Or the people you are aping did.

 

I suggest you look up the Convention Against Torture for some

definition and the prohibition on using fear as a rational for it's use.

 

Maybe you will listen to a fellow Navy man,

 

 

Focus on the witches Mark...that was lame.

 

I respect McCain's opinion, he sure has experienced torture at its worse.

 

We waterboard Navy Seals. We do it to make them aware of what may be coming down the pike. Do we stop?

 

As for whether lives were saved or not, would you like to find out what may have happened if they did not gain the intel regarding Heathrow? I don't.

 

Violence of the category of a 9/11 requires extrordinary measures to prevent. I think another attack has been prevented during the Bush years. The methods used may be controversial, maybe not. Right and wrong, interesting concept in the arena of killing, don't you think? Some things maybe should just remain a dirty little secret.

 

Cheers,

KG

 

Lets say -- hypothetically -- you are having an audience with Saint Peter. How does the conversation go......?

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Get with the topic guys, this is about interrogation. The only people talking about torture are the last two posters. Just love to twist the subject, don't cha. By the way, if hookers, blow and cash would have gotten results, guaranteed we'd have used them as well. ;)

 

You mean you actually accept John Yoos definition of torture?

 

I'm sticking to the one we used on Japanese generals and

what John McCain exerienced. Call me old-fashioned. Some

call that being conservative....

 

You know I love it that a technique like waterboarding is what you lable torture. Obviously it is the degree to which it is applied that would be used to define it as torture or not.

 

If I slip a bamboo shoot under your nail without adequate pressure to break the skin, that, under your definition, would be torture. It is after all "bamboo shoot under the nail".

 

The fact is that the waterboarding applied to this piece of shit was adequate enough to cause him to give information that saved lives. You were not there. Was it to the degree that we would call it torture or inhumane? Was it the same as we apply to our own special forces in training? If so, I doubt that it would rise to the brutality of what the Japanese or Vietnamese did.

 

Cheers,

KG

 

You weren't there either KAG. Quit making things up.

 

There sure were a lot of witches in Salem though...no disputing

that. Hard to imagine how many people were saved from

witchcraft by those brave inquisitors...

 

Mark...that was probably the dumbest response I have seen from you yet....what, pray tell, did I "make up"?

 

Japanese and Vietnamese used waterboarding as a means to kill, not torture to extract information. They did it for fun. The brutality of the Japanese is well documented. Don't try to compare our waterboarding method used on mass killer to get information with the wholesale slaughter of prisoners.

 

The term waterboading is a method. Torture is a degree of using that method.

 

Cheers,

KG

 

There is no evidence that any information we gained saved any lives.

You just made it up. Or the people you are aping did.

 

I suggest you look up the Convention Against Torture for some

definition and the prohibition on using fear as a rational for it's use.

 

Maybe you will listen to a fellow Navy man,

 

 

Focus on the witches Mark...that was lame.

 

I respect McCain's opinion, he sure has experienced torture at its worse.

 

We waterboard Navy Seals. We do it to make them aware of what may be coming down the pike. Do we stop?

 

As for whether lives were saved or not, would you like to find out what may have happened if they did not gain the intel regarding Heathrow? I don't.

 

Violence of the category of a 9/11 requires extrordinary measures to prevent. I think another attack has been prevented during the Bush years. The methods used may be controversial, maybe not. Right and wrong, interesting concept in the arena of killing, don't you think? Some things maybe should just remain a dirty little secret.

 

Cheers,

KG

 

It made things worse, like McCain said.

 

Demonstating to SEALS what they might experience so

they might be better psychologically prepared is not torture.

It's training. There's a big difference. Not even close

to being the same thing. No rational person could make

that comparison.

 

Interesting concept? I'll give you an interesting concept.

 

Half the guys we lost might be because of torture Matthew Alexander

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Political party Absolution for me but not for thee ?

 

In war people are killed --Obama has escalated war in Afghanistan , he has sent 30,000 more troops there --war is kill or be killed so please spare us the preachy absolutism and self rightious politically motivated morality .

That's pretty rich coming from you. My absolutism is anti-war. I was against it when Bush started it; I'm against Obama continuing it.

 

What about you? You were clearly for it when Bush started it; does that mean you are in favor of Obama policies in continuing it? Or, as seems to be the case, you're absolutely for Bush policies but absolutely against Obama? Smells like Political party absolutism to me.

 

Tell me I'm wrong. Tell me how you think Obama's escalation is A-OK with you. Or tell me how anti-war you were when Bush was in office. Otherwise, you're just a bullshit hypocrite.

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You gave a clear yes to all the others why the song and dance for Harry?

Since you asked, yes; I think it is wrong to drop a bomb that incinerates a million or so innocent people.

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You gave a clear yes to all the others why the song and dance for Harry?

Since you asked, yes; I think it is wrong to drop a bomb that incinerates a million or so innocent people.

They shoulda dropped it on the imperial palace. Though I never did understand why it took 2 bombs to get them to see the light.

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You gave a clear yes to all the others why the song and dance for Harry?

Since you asked, yes; I think it is wrong to drop a bomb that incinerates a million or so innocent people.

 

America's worst war criminal you thinkl?

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You gave a clear yes to all the others why the song and dance for Harry?

Since you asked, yes; I think it is wrong to drop a bomb that incinerates a million or so innocent people.

They shoulda dropped it on the imperial palace. Though I never did understand why it took 2 bombs to get them to see the light.

 

McArthur thought that if they could keep their leader and

existant governmental structures, the occupation would be

a lot easier to manage.

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You gave a clear yes to all the others why the song and dance for Harry?

Since you asked, yes; I think it is wrong to drop a bomb that incinerates a million or so innocent people.

America's worst war criminal you thinkl?

 

Not for me to say.

 

So how about you answering your own questions about when killing is right? I told you what I think; where do you stand on those?

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The concept of right and wrong when trying to gain the intel to keep 3000 people from being killed. POW's being tortured as opposed to captured enemy combatants who are of no nation, wear no uniform of a nations military, yet concieve ways to brutally murder thousands of innocent people who just happen to be in the wrong place at the wrong time in a nation who has not declared war.

 

You know, I believe in maintaining the conventions in a war and when dealing with POW's. I do not get real teary eyed about masterminds of the slaughter of 3000 inocents being waterboarded and threatened with a gun. Guess I am just a barbarian, no better than they.

 

This "war" Obama has declared on those who have worked hard to keep our nation safe from another terror attack is at best ill conceived.

 

At worst a political game to cast fellow Americans in a bad light. Just my opinion, but I think that is the way most Americans will see it.

 

Cheers,

 

KG

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I searched this entire thread for the words "suspects", "suspected", and "alleged" and found no occurances.

 

The explorer search tool is great. It sure saved me the time to read through posts that are complete bullshit.

 

Ben

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I searched this entire thread for the words "suspects", "suspected", and "alleged" and found no occurances.

 

The explorer search tool is great. It sure saved me the time to read through posts that are complete bullshit.

 

Ben

This can mean only one thing: it is time for "National Torture Day" where we celebrate lives saved and freedoms won through the blessings of torture.

 

Please, don't thank me, it's a gift.

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I searched this entire thread for the words "suspects", "suspected", and "alleged" and found no occurances.

 

The explorer search tool is great. It sure saved me the time to read through posts that are complete bullshit.

 

Ben

This can mean only one thing: it is time for "National Torture Day" where we celebrate lives saved and freedoms won through the blessings of torture.

 

Please, don't thank me, it's a gift.

 

I don't have time right now to discuss sanctioned torture of people suspected of being terrorists.. Glenn Beck is on and telling me how Health Care Reform is a threat to our nation's values. Uh oh... He is crying again. The tears have me convinced.

 

Now... Where were we?

 

Ben

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I searched this entire thread for the words "suspects", "suspected", and "alleged" and found no occurances.

 

The explorer search tool is great. It sure saved me the time to read through posts that are complete bullshit.

 

Ben

This can mean only one thing: it is time for "National Torture Day" where we celebrate lives saved and freedoms won through the blessings of torture.

 

Please, don't thank me, it's a gift.

 

I don't have time right now to discuss sanctioned torture of people suspected of being terrorists.. Glenn Beck is on and telling me how Health Care Reform is a threat to our nation's values. Uh oh... He is crying again. The tears have me convinced.

 

Now... Where were we?

 

Ben

 

Health Care Torture Reform School. I am all about the efficiencies. I suggest it be staffed by Nuns.

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I searched this entire thread for the words "suspects", "suspected", and "alleged" and found no occurances.

 

The explorer search tool is great. It sure saved me the time to read through posts that are complete bullshit.

 

Ben

This can mean only one thing: it is time for "National Torture Day" where we celebrate lives saved and freedoms won through the blessings of torture.

 

Please, don't thank me, it's a gift.

 

I don't have time right now to discuss sanctioned torture of people suspected of being terrorists.. Glenn Beck is on and telling me how Health Care Reform is a threat to our nation's values. Uh oh... He is crying again. The tears have me convinced.

 

Now... Where were we?

 

Ben

 

Health Care Torture Reform School. I am all about the efficiencies. I suggest it be staffed by Nuns.

 

 

Other than snide, smart arse comments neither of you guys put much into this forum.

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I searched this entire thread for the words "suspects", "suspected", and "alleged" and found no occurances.

 

The explorer search tool is great. It sure saved me the time to read through posts that are complete bullshit.

 

Ben

This can mean only one thing: it is time for "National Torture Day" where we celebrate lives saved and freedoms won through the blessings of torture.

 

Please, don't thank me, it's a gift.

 

I don't have time right now to discuss sanctioned torture of people suspected of being terrorists.. Glenn Beck is on and telling me how Health Care Reform is a threat to our nation's values. Uh oh... He is crying again. The tears have me convinced.

 

Now... Where were we?

 

Ben

 

Health Care Torture Reform School. I am all about the efficiencies. I suggest it be staffed by Nuns.

 

 

Other than snide, smart arse comments neither of you guys put much into this forum.

 

And that is an issue? This place is like a mental ward with patients running up and down the hallways yelling at each other. Meanwhile, grumpy is getting annoyed at me and d'ranger snapping our gum too loud.

 

I've already posted some fairly lengthy commentaries on this subject. But don't take that statement as giving too much of a shit about what you think of my contributions.

 

Ben

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Other than snide, smart arse comments neither of you guys put much into this forum.

Don't underestimate the value of that. Sometimes it's hard to make a point any more succinctly that a well placed smart arsed comment.

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Other than snide, smart arse comments neither of you guys put much into this forum.

Don't underestimate the value of that. Sometimes it's hard to make a point any more succinctly that a well placed smart arsed comment.

Your sarcasm is torturing me.

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Political party Absolution for me but not for thee ?

 

In war people are killed --Obama has escalated war in Afghanistan , he has sent 30,000 more troops there --war is kill or be killed so please spare us the preachy absolutism and self rightious politically motivated morality .

That's pretty rich coming from you. My absolutism is anti-war. I was against it when Bush started it; I'm against Obama continuing it.

 

What about you? You were clearly for it when Bush started it; does that mean you are in favor of Obama policies in continuing it? Or, as seems to be the case, you're absolutely for Bush policies but absolutely against Obama? Smells like Political party absolutism to me.

 

Tell me I'm wrong. Tell me how you think Obama's escalation is A-OK with you. Or tell me how anti-war you were when Bush was in office. Otherwise, you're just a bullshit hypocrite.

 

 

I,ve stated numerous times that I support Obamas earnest efforts so far in Afghanistan and Iraq

 

 

You failed to answer the question about Clinton's imilitary intervention in the former Yugoslavia {KOSOVO BOSNIA ETC } seem to not comprehend Clinton also bombed Iraq extensively and US backed UN sanctions in Husein Iraq caused the deathes of nearly half million Iraqis , mainly children from starvation and related deseases .

 

A return to past failed policies like UN sanctions , the failed policies and sanctions that lead to half million dead , or keeping a genocidal dictator in power with potentially another million dead , or allowing AQ and Taliban to retake Afghanistan to use as terrorist central again is neither moral or very wise --Both would end up getting many more killed and more of our people killed .

 

You seem to be trying to selectively apply a false politically motivated self rightious preachy morality because you have been force fed so much party line propaganda and the ever present false L narratives and villifications , A { bush wars bad Obama wars good}

 

Repeating party slogans and Micheal Moore induced hyterical selective memory rants that display a total ignorance of history and lack of any context from which to base moral judgements make your party propagnda speil seem extremely irrational given the realities and policies Obama has adapted in war the nation is in .

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I searched this entire thread for the words "suspects", "suspected", and "alleged" and found no occurances.

 

The explorer search tool is great. It sure saved me the time to read through posts that are complete bullshit.

 

Ben

 

 

Start a thread on prisoners of war and see how many times those words are used. I know it doesn't apply to these individuals....they are ememy combatants, no nation, no uniform, just an idiology.

 

KG

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I searched this entire thread for the words "suspects", "suspected", and "alleged" and found no occurances.

 

The explorer search tool is great. It sure saved me the time to read through posts that are complete bullshit.

 

Ben

 

 

Start a thread on prisoners of war and see how many times those words are used. I know it doesn't apply to these individuals....they are ememy combatants, no nation, no uniform, just an idiology.

 

KG

 

So why did you mention the term "prisoners of war"?

 

Ben

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I searched this entire thread for the words "suspects", "suspected", and "alleged" and found no occurances.

 

The explorer search tool is great. It sure saved me the time to read through posts that are complete bullshit.

 

Ben

 

 

Start a thread on prisoners of war and see how many times those words are used. I know it doesn't apply to these individuals....they are ememy combatants, no nation, no uniform, just an idiology.

 

KG

 

So why did you mention the term "prisoners of war"?

 

Ben

 

Two reasons, multiple references to POW John McCain, and POW is the group protected by the oft mentioned Geneva Conventions. The point being, these pricks do not rise to the level of POW, which is honorable and to be respected with certain rights.

 

They are lower. Killers who hide behind a religion. Enemy combatants. Most likely something we have never had to deal with on such a grand scale as now.

 

My point still stands. They are not suspects, not suspected, not alleged.

 

Cheers,

KG

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I searched this entire thread for the words "suspects", "suspected", and "alleged" and found no occurances.

 

The explorer search tool is great. It sure saved me the time to read through posts that are complete bullshit.

 

Ben

This can mean only one thing: it is time for "National Torture Day" where we celebrate lives saved and freedoms won through the blessings of torture.

 

Please, don't thank me, it's a gift.

 

I don't have time right now to discuss sanctioned torture of people suspected of being terrorists.. Glenn Beck is on and telling me how Health Care Reform is a threat to our nation's values. Uh oh... He is crying again. The tears have me convinced.

 

Now... Where were we?

 

Ben

 

Health Care {APPLIED TO TERRORISTS } Reform School. I am all about the efficiencies. I suggest it be staffed by Nuns.

 

EMPHASIS ADDED MINE

 

They do that in Scotland .

 

The govt run health care system WITH ITS LONG WAITING LINES AND MONTHS WAIT TO SEE A DOCTOR MUCH LESS GET A CHECKUP resulted in enemy combatants being held by the govt to be afforded the same govt run care .

 

The results for one they released recently was terminal advanced prostate cancer left undetected for months or years and him only having a few miserable painfull more months to live --they sent him away before any expersive medicines painkillers or care would need to be spent .

 

very effecient system --we can learn from them here .

 

We should immediately apply the same Govt run care standards used there to all enemy combantants being held here and in Gitmo --no more costly check ups --no more traditional ME food and meals etc .

 

Just govt run care and shipping them out once terminal .--smart --very smart govt

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Two reasons, multiple references to POW John McCain, and POW is the group protected by the oft mentioned Geneva Conventions. The point being, these pricks do not rise to the level of POW, which is honorable and to be respected with certain rights.

 

They are lower. Killers who hide behind a religion. Enemy combatants. Most likely something we have never had to deal with on such a grand scale as now.

 

My point still stands. They are not suspects, not suspected, not alleged.

 

Cheers,

KG

How do you justify the US's ongoing failure to uphold the following:

• International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights (ICCPR),

• Convention on the Rights of the Child (CRC),

• UN Rules for the Protection of Juveniles Deprived of their Liberty (UN Rules for the

Protection of Juveniles),

• UN Guidelines for the Prevention of Juvenile Delinquency (The Riyadh Guidelines)

• UN Standard Minimum Rules for the Administration of Juvenile Justice (Beijing

Rules)

• Standard Minimum Rules for the Treatment of Prisoners (Standard Minimum Rules)

• Body of Principles for the Protection of All Persons under Any Form of Detention or

Imprisonment (Body of Principles).

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Is it wrong , however, to kill the person holding you at gun point to rob you.

Yes, it is. To take the opposite position is to say that your material possessions are of greater value than a human life.

 

 

Material possessions, no. My life, over that of some piece of begging shit, turned potential murderer? You bet your sweet fucking ass I'm gonna put multiple holes in him. I'd give my life gladly to save the life of one of my family members, I will not give my life to someone who wants my wallet.

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A father sees a man kidnap his twin daughters. later when everyone is out searching the father sees the same man dragging one of his daughters into the bush. He picks up a club and catches the man digging a grave and pops him in the head. With the kidnapper groggy the father tells his daughter to run to the car and call 911.

 

What acts of torture would you consider "WRONG" for this father to use in an effort try and locate his second child?

 

Smashing his hands with the shovel?

 

Severing his fingers and or toes with the blade of the shovel?

 

Placing him in the grave he dug and burying him alive?

 

Castrating him with the shovel?

 

lighting his hair on fire?

 

holding his head under water?

 

gouge his eyes out?

 

 

Personally I would not consider anything the father did to be either torture of wrong.

 

Change the scenario slightly and have the father find both daughters to be dead after he whacks the kidnapper.

 

In that case any attack not related to restraining the kidnapper would be revenge and wrong. That does not mean I'd vote to convict him of a crime.

 

The differences are several.

 

- if it were me and my kids I would do whatever it took to get them back. And fully expect to stand for the consequences of my illegal actions afterwords; I am willing to risk a prison term to protect my kids. So your example fails.

 

- I am individual person, NOT a government. So your example fails.

 

- This is a one time spur of the moment personal action, not a systematic, carefully legally justified & CYA'd course of policy by the government. So your example fails.

 

- There is a KNOWN risk to another child here, not a theoretical risk that the gy might know something about some child that may be taken some day. So your example fails.

 

On the whole, it's a pretty crappy example. Got a better one?

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I searched this entire thread for the words "suspects", "suspected", and "alleged" and found no occurances.

 

The explorer search tool is great. It sure saved me the time to read through posts that are complete bullshit.

 

Ben

 

 

Start a thread on prisoners of war and see how many times those words are used. I know it doesn't apply to these individuals....they are ememy combatants, no nation, no uniform, just an idiology.

 

KG

 

So why did you mention the term "prisoners of war"?

 

Ben

 

Two reasons, multiple references to POW John McCain, and POW is the group protected by the oft mentioned Geneva Conventions. The point being, these pricks do not rise to the level of POW, which is honorable and to be respected with certain rights.

 

They are lower. Killers who hide behind a religion. Enemy combatants. Most likely something we have never had to deal with on such a grand scale as now.

 

My point still stands. They are not suspects, not suspected, not alleged.

 

Cheers,

KG

 

So you are good with torturing Scott Roeder then, since he is also a killer who hides behind religion? Even though he is not actually convicted yet? He may know of more plots to kill OB/Gyns after all.

 

It's really no different.

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I searched this entire thread for the words "suspects", "suspected", and "alleged" and found no occurances.

 

The explorer search tool is great. It sure saved me the time to read through posts that are complete bullshit.

 

Ben

 

 

Start a thread on prisoners of war and see how many times those words are used. I know it doesn't apply to these individuals....they are ememy combatants, no nation, no uniform, just an idiology.

 

KG

 

So why did you mention the term "prisoners of war"?

 

Ben

 

Two reasons, multiple references to POW John McCain, and POW is the group protected by the oft mentioned Geneva Conventions. The point being, these pricks do not rise to the level of POW, which is honorable and to be respected with certain rights.

 

They are lower. Killers who hide behind a religion. Enemy combatants. Most likely something we have never had to deal with on such a grand scale as now.

 

My point still stands. They are not suspects, not suspected, not alleged.

 

Cheers,

KG

 

You are the fuckin criminal.

 

These people are either POWs or Civilians. There is no middle fucking ground. If they are civilians they are accountable to the local laws of where they were caught -- at the time they were caught. Just like here in the USA. You want to urinate all over that I will urinate all over you. And then you can call the cops and I will declare I wasn't torturing you and get off scot free. We just can't go around making shit up!

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My point still stands. They are not suspects, not suspected, not alleged.

 

Cheers,

KG

 

The government says they did it. And that is good enough for you.

 

Get out the pliers.

 

Ben

 

No Kali said he did it. That is good enough for me.

 

KG

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My point still stands. They are not suspects, not suspected, not alleged.

 

Cheers,

KG

 

The government says they did it. And that is good enough for you.

 

Get out the pliers.

 

Ben

 

No Kali said he did it. That is good enough for me.

 

KG

 

We have laws for Criminals, and laws for POWs.

 

You would create a third class of subhumans that it is OK to torture and mistreat.

 

OK - who gets to play god and put people into this class arbitrarily and without due legal process?

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I searched this entire thread for the words "suspects", "suspected", and "alleged" and found no occurances.

 

The explorer search tool is great. It sure saved me the time to read through posts that are complete bullshit.

 

Ben

 

 

Start a thread on prisoners of war and see how many times those words are used. I know it doesn't apply to these individuals....they are ememy combatants, no nation, no uniform, just an idiology.

 

KG

 

So why did you mention the term "prisoners of war"?

 

Ben

 

Two reasons, multiple references to POW John McCain, and POW is the group protected by the oft mentioned Geneva Conventions. The point being, these pricks do not rise to the level of POW, which is honorable and to be respected with certain rights.

 

They are lower. Killers who hide behind a religion. Enemy combatants. Most likely something we have never had to deal with on such a grand scale as now.

 

My point still stands. They are not suspects, not suspected, not alleged.

 

Cheers,

KG

 

So you are good with torturing Scott Roeder then, since he is also a killer who hides behind religion? Even though he is not actually convicted yet? He may know of more plots to kill OB/Gyns after all.

 

It's really no different.

 

C'mon BJ....really a stretch. The difference is commiting a crime in your country and going through the legal system and being a part of a radical, lunatic fringe of a religion waging war on various countries without the benefit of declaring that war and identifying yourself by a uniform.

 

My whole point is, this witch hunt is ill conceived. It will backfire on the administration. Why, because most of us cannot get to upset about threatning a mass killer with a gun. We know what ever happened does not define us a nation.

 

That is life my friend.

 

Cheers,

KG

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I searched this entire thread for the words "suspects", "suspected", and "alleged" and found no occurances.

 

The explorer search tool is great. It sure saved me the time to read through posts that are complete bullshit.

 

Ben

 

 

Start a thread on prisoners of war and see how many times those words are used. I know it doesn't apply to these individuals....they are ememy combatants, no nation, no uniform, just an idiology.

 

KG

 

So why did you mention the term "prisoners of war"?

 

Ben

 

Two reasons, multiple references to POW John McCain, and POW is the group protected by the oft mentioned Geneva Conventions. The point being, these pricks do not rise to the level of POW, which is honorable and to be respected with certain rights.

 

They are lower. Killers who hide behind a religion. Enemy combatants. Most likely something we have never had to deal with on such a grand scale as now.

 

My point still stands. They are not suspects, not suspected, not alleged.

 

Cheers,

KG

 

You are the fuckin criminal.

 

These people are either POWs or Civilians. There is no middle fucking ground. If they are civilians they are accountable to the local laws of where they were caught -- at the time they were caught. Just like here in the USA. You want to urinate all over that I will urinate all over you. And then you can call the cops and I will declare I wasn't torturing you and get off scot free. We just can't go around making shit up!

 

Fuck off........the only appropriate response to your ranting.

 

KG

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Get with the topic guys, this is about interrogation. The only people talking about torture are the last two posters. Just love to twist the subject, don't cha. By the way, if hookers, blow and cash would have gotten results, guaranteed we'd have used them as well. ;)

 

You mean you actually accept John Yoos definition of torture?

 

I'm sticking to the one we used on Japanese generals and

what John McCain exerienced. Call me old-fashioned. Some

call that being conservative....

 

You know I love it that a technique like waterboarding is what you lable torture. Obviously it is the degree to which it is applied that would be used to define it as torture or not.

 

If I slip a bamboo shoot under your nail without adequate pressure to break the skin, that, under your definition, would be torture. It is after all "bamboo shoot under the nail".

 

The fact is that the waterboarding applied to this piece of shit was adequate enough to cause him to give information that saved lives. You were not there. Was it to the degree that we would call it torture or inhumane? Was it the same as we apply to our own special forces in training? If so, I doubt that it would rise to the brutality of what the Japanese or Vietnamese did.

 

Cheers,

KG

 

You weren't there either KAG. Quit making things up.

 

There sure were a lot of witches in Salem though...no disputing

that. Hard to imagine how many people were saved from

witchcraft by those brave inquisitors...

 

Mark...that was probably the dumbest response I have seen from you yet....what, pray tell, did I "make up"?

 

Japanese and Vietnamese used waterboarding as a means to kill, not torture to extract information. They did it for fun. The brutality of the Japanese is well documented. Don't try to compare our waterboarding method used on mass killer to get information with the wholesale slaughter of prisoners.

 

The term waterboading is a method. Torture is a degree of using that method.

 

Cheers,

KG

 

There is no evidence that any information we gained saved any lives.

You just made it up. Or the people you are aping did.

 

I suggest you look up the Convention Against Torture for some

definition and the prohibition on using fear as a rational for it's use.

 

Maybe you will listen to a fellow Navy man,

 

 

 

 

Adm. Dennis Blair, the director of national intelligence, who wrote in April 2009, "These techniques hurt our image around the world, the damage they have done to our interests far outweighed whatever benefits they gave us and they are not essential to our national security." Quite.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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My point still stands. They are not suspects, not suspected, not alleged.

 

Cheers,

KG

 

The government says they did it. And that is good enough for you.

 

Get out the pliers.

 

Ben

 

No Kali said he did it. That is good enough for me.

 

KG

 

We have laws for Criminals, and laws for POWs.

 

You would create a third class of subhumans that it is OK to torture and mistreat.

 

OK - who gets to play god and put people into this class arbitrarily and without due legal process?

 

No that class has already been created. We are learning how to handle them and what is appropriate and what is not. I would prefer everything stay nice and neat. But I am not worried about what has been alleged so far. As I said, I know it does not define us as a nation and it was better left alone.

 

Cheers,

KG

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Two things,

1. Torture works. If it did not work people would not be doing it. Name one thing, anything that people have been doing for thousands of years that does not work.

 

2.Does not matter if torture works, we should not be torturing people. There are countries that torture and ones that don't. Which country would you like to live in?

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Two things,

1. Torture works. If it did not work people would not be doing it. Name one thing, anything that people have been doing for thousands of years that does not work.

 

Rape. Murdering each other. Stealing from each other. Employing slaves.

2.Does not matter if torture works, we should not be torturing people. There are countries that torture and ones that don't. Which country would you like to live in?

 

+1

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Two things,

1. Torture works. If it did not work people would not be doing it. Name one thing, anything that people have been doing for thousands of years that does not work.

 

2.Does not matter if torture works, we should not be torturing people. There are countries that torture and ones that don't. Which country would you like to live in?

 

 

Good statement, I would agree with it. Two things, has nothing to do with the decision to go after potential violations of inhanced or torture techniques BASED ON WHAT WE KNOW SO FAR. It does no good and plenty of bad.

 

Obama had it right in the beginning, don't look back. Well now they are going to look back. They are NOT going to find anything prosecutable. They are going to keep the issue in the forefront. They are going to stifle future initiatives of those whose job it is to protect us.

 

They are going to cut off their collective noses, to spite their faces, and it will be a bad move for this administration.

 

Right or wrong, that is what will go down.

 

Cheers,

 

KG

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