18' Whisper Production Foiling Cat

[Bench Warmer]

Sam

You re right, XFLR5 is much more user friendly than XFOIL,

but it does not display the BL parameters, independly from the water/air issue.

It has been confirmed on the XFLR5 forum by the software's author/programer/coder.

As a result I am a bit lazy to work with XFOIL because much more cumbersome task, as you noticed.

Cheers

 

[Doug Halsey]

Sam

You re right, XFLR5 is much more user friendly than XFOIL,

but it does not display the BL parameters, independly from the water/air issue.

It has been confirmed on the XFLR5 forum by the software's author/programer/coder.

As a result I am a bit lazy to work with XFOIL because much more cumbersome task, as you noticed.

Cheers

Almost all the tedious work of running XFOIL can be eliminated by running a script in a command shell. I knew next to nothing about such things, but I bought a book on Windows PowerShell 2 (which is included in Windows 10), and with a little trial & error, can now launch fairly lengthy XFOIL runs with a single command.

If you are interested in doing something similar, just send me a PM & I will help you get started. However, if you don't have PowerShell (or a Windows computer), you'll have to do a bit more work translating the commands.

 

[Doug Halsey]

I should probably add that I'm referring to running XFOIL in analysis mode only. Running in design mode may be more difficult to automate & I'm not familiar with using it that way.

 

[Team_GBR]

Interesting off topic stuff. I am just surprised that our resident foiling expert hasn't made a contribution to this, because I would really value his input as to the best software to use and why h34r:

I saw the whisper at the show and thought it looked like a well built bit of kit. The faired aero beams looked pretty cool compared with standard. It looks to me like the Whites are the first proven mass producer to go for the "easy to sail" end of the foiling market, offering a range of boats with their involvement with the F101.

 

[Charlie P Mayer]

Hi Team_GBR,

Yes, I think the Whisper looks quite nice - would love to see one in person. I know nothing about the Whites.

Just curious about why you didn't consider the S9 as the first to offer "easy to sail".

Thank you,

Charlie

 

[Team_GBR]

Hi Team_GBR,

Yes, I think the Whisper looks quite nice - would love to see one in person. I know nothing about the Whites.

Just curious about why you didn't consider the S9 as the first to offer "easy to sail".

Thank you,

Charlie

Charlie

I didn't say that the S9 wasn't the first "easy to sail". I commented that the Whites were the first proven mass producer. No disrespect to the guy building S9's, but he has not got a long and successful track record of building SMOD's. White Formula have been doing that for something like 30+ years, building both their own range (usually cats) and for many other companies. Their website currently lists 18 different classes they build plus Rob White has been heavily involved with Topper Saiboats.

Why I consider this important is that they have the experience of getting classes off the ground. It takes experience and effort to do this. Because of their track record, people will buy on faith, knowing that a racing circuit will be developed.For me, foiling gets serious when there is proper racing and to date, most foilers other than the Moth and A Class do not have a proper one design class set up. For instance, with the S9, is there a class association, rules and a proposed calendar of events? I know that has not been the focus for the S9, so it is not meant as a criticism, just a comment. The difference is that the Whisper get a circuit going this year.

 

[Charlie P Mayer]

Team_GBR,

Thank you for the reply. Makes sense.

Charlie

 

[Waynemarlow]

Certainly would be a class enhancer if there was an option to single hand sans jib like the F16 class. A lot of the early photos were of single handing, the weight of the boat is light enough to launch solo and the screecher is such that it wouldn't be a problem to manage solo.

 

[Doug Lord]

Why without the jib?

-------------------------------

Just a note about "easy to sail": the first easy to sail foilers were the Rave and Hobie trifoiler 18 years ago and Osprey 6 years ago. They had some disadvantages but were definitely the first "easy to sail" multihull foilers.

In monohull foilers the Quant 23 wins the prize and the new Flo 1 by aeronamics is also designed to be very easy to foil.

--

There is another critical element in making foiling palatable to more people and that is light air foiling capability. Early foilers wouldn't fly until the wind was over 10-12 knots which in a lot of places is not a frequent occurrence.

Of the most recent foilers the Quant 23(including lead ballast) and the Whisper will both foil in around 5 knots or less wind and as I understand it the UFO, S9 and Flo foil in 6-7 knots which is still a big improvement.

It's interesting to note that at least one of the new AC boats has been foiling in as little 7-8 knots.(Oracle just recently)

New foilers will pretty much have to foil in light air and be "easy to sail/fly". People aren't going to pay big bucks for boats that only fly in part of the wind range when light air foilers are actually available.

 

[Charlie P Mayer]

Doug,

Just my 2 cents, maybe not worth even that:


Yes, I think you are correct. Light air foiling is important, and the Trifoiler and Rave took almost no skill to foil, but there's more to it.

I sailed the Trifoiler in normally very windy Texas City, Texas many years ago. It was a pita to assemble and move around, and we could not get it to foil in the lighter wind on the day I was there. I sailed the Rave in Rockport, Texas on a very windy day. It foiled effortlessly, but it too was a pita to assemble, launch, and retrieve, especially with the shallow water and on-shore chop. The Rave I sailed had no front skirt: it took on about 100 pounds of water that sloshed fore and aft with the waves. Scary. It took hours to drain it and get it back on the trailer.

The Trifoiler and Wave were prone to rudder damage when backed onto the beach, even with helpers.

The "fun factor" of both boats was ruined by their near-shore logistics. I was not surprised when they didn't sell very well.

My conclusion: if a boat is a pita to use, it won't get used much, regardless of its performance or sailing characteristics.

The above are simply my observations and opinions - would like to know your thoughts and experiences.

Charlie

 

[Christian]

Why without the jib?

-------------------------------

Just a note about "easy to sail": the first easy to sail foilers were the Rave and Hobie trifoiler 18 years ago and Osprey 6 years ago. They had some disadvantages but were definitely the first "easy to sail" multihull foilers.

In monohull foilers the Quant 23 wins the prize and the new Flo 1 by aeronamics is also designed to be very easy to foil.

--

There is another critical element in making foiling palatable to more people and that is light air foiling capability. Early foilers wouldn't fly until the wind was over 10-12 knots which in a lot of places is not a frequent occurrence.

Of the most recent foilers the Quant 23(including lead ballast) and the Whisper will both foil in around 5 knots or less wind and as I understand it the UFO, S9 and Flo foil in 6-7 knots which is still a big improvement.

It's interesting to note that at least one of the new AC boats has been foiling in as little 7-8 knots.(Oracle just recently)

New foilers will pretty much have to foil in light air and be "easy to sail/fly". People aren't going to pay big bucks for boats that only fly in part of the wind range when light air foilers are actually available.

You making comparisons as to which boats are easy to sail is beyond comical - maybe if you actually sailed there might be a grain of validity to your claims. As it is there is ZERO

 

[Christian]

Doug,

Just my 2 cents, maybe not worth even that:


Yes, I think you are correct. Light air foiling is important, and the Trifoiler and Rave took almost no skill to foil, but there's more to it.

I sailed the Trifoiler in normally very windy Texas City, Texas many years ago. It was a pita to assemble and move around, and we could not get it to foil in the lighter wind on the day I was there. I sailed the Rave in Rockport, Texas on a very windy day. It foiled effortlessly, but it too was a pita to assemble, launch, and retrieve, especially with the shallow water and on-shore chop. The Rave I sailed had no front skirt: it took on about 100 pounds of water that sloshed fore and aft with the waves. Scary. It took hours to drain it and get it back on the trailer.

The Trifoiler and Wave were prone to rudder damage when backed onto the beach, even with helpers.

The "fun factor" of both boats was ruined by their near-shore logistics. I was not surprised when they didn't sell very well.

My conclusion: if a boat is a pita to use, it won't get used much, regardless of its performance or sailing characteristics.

The above are simply my observations and opinions - would like to know your thoughts and experiences.

Charlie

Not to mention that the trifoiler absolutely sucked in choppy conditions

 

[Doug Lord]

Doug,

Just my 2 cents, maybe not worth even that:


Yes, I think you are correct. Light air foiling is important, and the Trifoiler and Rave took almost no skill to foil, but there's more to it.

I sailed the Trifoiler in normally very windy Texas City, Texas many years ago. It was a pita to assemble and move around, and we could not get it to foil in the lighter wind on the day I was there. I sailed the Rave in Rockport, Texas on a very windy day. It foiled effortlessly, but it too was a pita to assemble, launch, and retrieve, especially with the shallow water and on-shore chop. The Rave I sailed had no front skirt: it took on about 100 pounds of water that sloshed fore and aft with the waves. Scary. It took hours to drain it and get it back on the trailer.

The Trifoiler and Wave were prone to rudder damage when backed onto the beach, even with helpers.

The "fun factor" of both boats was ruined by their near-shore logistics. I was not surprised when they didn't sell very well.

My conclusion: if a boat is a pita to use, it won't get used much, regardless of its performance or sailing characteristics.

The above are simply my observations and opinions - would like to know your thoughts and experiences.

Charlie

Charlie, I've never sailed a trifoiler but have talked to many who have-all had the same conclusion you did. I have many hours on a Rave and while it was fun some of the time it took more than 10 knots to foil(well) and was a pain to assemble as you said.

My feeling is that they should get some credit for their ease of foiling because at the time they were both breakthroughs.Both had high topend speed exceeding thirty knots. I'm fairly sure the trifoiler set a couple of records that still stand.

There is no comparison to the state of the art now like the Whisper, S9 and Quant 23. And they certainly didn't foil in real light air like the Whisper and Quant do or even in the 6-7 of the S9 and Flo.

 

[Lost in Translation]

It's odd to talk as if light air foiling is the future. It is already happening in class racing throughout the world in the moth and A-Class and other makes are working to establish themselves as Team GBR notes. Light air foiling is not a break through for the future.

Here is one quick video from last weekend in Florida with the A-Class, sailing with Hobie 16s, F18s, and F16s. Will not win any awards but gives you the gist of the environment. Other videos show even even less wind but were not filmed with the same closeups. The foiling is happening by typical sailors, not pros. Sailors that are aged 20 to 65. With lead changes and different winners of races. Even if you can't fully fly a hull upwind on an A due to light air, you can now learn to foil it downwind. 5 or 6 knots I'd guess. Perhaps we had up to 7 or maybe 8 knots in the video below?

https://www.facebook.com/robbie.daniel.18/videos/10154029733780957/?autoplay_reason=user_settings&video_container_type=4&video_creator_product_type=0&app_id=6628568379&live_video_guests=0

While no one would say it is easy to hop in and do in 5 minutes, I don't know many that say they love any sport they become good at so quickly or with little energy expended. It is easy enough to do for a practiced sailor to be able to look around, gauge competition, plot strategy, make trim adjustments, and call laylines while up on the foils, especially in light air. It is also pretty amazing how much the sailor can move for and aft to make these adjustments when up on the foils and still fly.

Perhaps the Whisper or S9 will reach the same critical mass, but I think the one most likely do to well will be one that is at a radically different price point from other foiling options. We are being offered a special right now in the USA for a turn key new foiling A at $23.5K FOB Florida. This is the best price we've seen in years for a brand new A, foiling or not. With the critical mass of boats already sailing and some of the largest small boat regattas in the USA and the worlds here in 2020 with what will likely be 120+ boats, I think it will be difficult for the Whisper to succeed at a similar or higher price point even if it is somewhat easier to sail.

The UFO could become the breakout boat as the sunfish of foilers at $8K. At this price point, it can become a second or third boat, almost purchased on a whim. It may not set speed records, but will give people a foiling experience at laser / sunfish pricing.

Getting people to try the boat is another important dimension and Charlie has done a wonderful job with this on the S9 in the US. I have not seen the same for the Whisper. I believe the dealer in the US got cold feet.

 

[dacarls]

From CPMayer, above "Light air foiling is important, and the Trifoiler and Rave took almost no skill. I sailed the Trifoiler in normally very windy Texas City, Texas many years ago. It was a pita to assemble and move around, and we could not get it to foil in the lighter wind. I sailed the Rave in Rockport, Texas on a very windy day. It foiled effortlessly, but it too was a pita to assemble, launch, and retrieve, especially with the shallow water and on-shore chop.

The "fun factor" of both boats was ruined by their near-shore logistics. I was not surprised when they didn't sell very well".

I pretty much agree:

I was present as the PRO for the first big race of Raves in N. Florida. Several of the 10 boats never got on the water, as pita was everywhere. One skipper was taken to the hospital for foot stitches after kicking his rudder. One Rave pitchpoled on the racecourse and the PRO boat was the only heavy equipment that could right it--needed asap since it was just below my finish line. We did finish the event ok- but never repeated. The class had a few races in Florida, one in Canada the next year. One Rave sat in shallow water in the lake for 4 years until it was given to me to dispose of. Early on I went to 2 Rave demos, but never got to sail a Rave- they broke a foil (Miami YC) or became stuck on a sandbank miles away (Dunedin)= no rides. Heavy- 3 men and a boy to assemble, launch, and recover- & overengineered IMHO.

 

[A Class Sailor]

Doug

Some friendly advise. You wonder why people are so abusive towards you and think you are a dick? Your comments about which boats were the first to be "easy to foil" are an illustration of why. Your comments miss the point entirely and doesn't consider the whole picture. Even you admit the Rave was a PITA to assemble and add the other comments made, I am not sure you can call the Rave "easy to foil". It seems the same is true of the Trifoiler and the Osprey was a one off. The thing you really seemed unable to pick up on is that we were talking about modern off the beach type boats of which the S9 and Whisper are a new generation. Being pedantic adds nothing to the debate and frustrates people who are trying to have a meaningful debate. Please consider things like this so that we don't get side tracked and we all keep cool heads!

 

[A Class Sailor]

The comments about ease of sailing, light winds and the A Cats all have real significance to the Whisper.

We have just had a great A Class nationals and the biggest thing to note was the enthusiasm that almost everybody had for foiling. Many. including myself are saying it is the most fun we have had sailing in years. The thing to understand is that what makes it so fun is learning something new and the overall challenge. This applies all the way through the fleet. I question whether people would be so enthused if foiling was easy, because the speed thing wears off pretty quickly.

I believe that after a certain point, ease of sailing is a bit of a distraction. At the top end of the sport, there are those saying the new N17 foiler is actually too easy to sail. Or maybe the ease of sailing thing is being over played. IIRC Charlie took a reasonable amount of time to learn to sail the S9 while with the Whisper, there is a video of the editor of one of the big sailing magazines trying the boat and he certainly found it a challenge. Maybe it is all relative, where wand cats are easy to sail compared with, say, the A's or Moths, but they still present a decent degree of challenge.

As for the continued obsession with light wind foiling, the reality of most places where people do sail is that the 6-7 knots it takes for these boats to foil is fine. You have to do it to understand, but it is a very strange thing that you are foiling downwind a think there is a fair breeze, only to pass "normal" boats running downwind looking like they are drifting. Doug keeps commenting on places he knows where the wind is always very light, but because of that light wind, those places are on the margins for sailing anyway and to compromise a boat those places makes zero sense. Here in the UK we do have inland venues which are mainly light winds (rivers, small lakes with trees etc) but in most cases, you would never take a foiler to those venues anyway.

 

[Charlie P Mayer]

Nice comments everyone, not too much flaming, no bs. Thanks for laying off Doug a bit. Please continue! Thank you.

A Class Sailor: thank you for your comments - I am still learning to foil, but I am a rock star on the S9 - if I get to pick the 3 second video .

Yes, the thrill of foiling is that it is a true mental challenge. Never sailed anything like this before. Trifoiler and Rave included.

If you react correctly the rewards are tremendous. If not, well, you know. The margins are fun to explore.

My UFO should be here in February - more data points then.

Today I sailed for two hours, launched and retrieved the boat all by myself, lotsa foiling, with video, never capsized or fell off, but I could not get over 20 mph, wind about 8-10 mph.

Think about the statement above: this is beyond my wildest expectations of 20 years ago - how about yours?

Can't wait to see where this leads a decade from now.

another 2 cents,

Charlie

 

[A Class Sailor]

Charlie

I think you might be younger than me, because I look back a bit further and remember before Mitch showed us the wild thing and we thought we were quick! I learnt to stop being surprised. I may be wrong, but I think we have the tiger by the tail at the moment and that in 10 years time, it won't quite feel like that. I believe that is how it went with the Moths. As time gos on, people learn what to do and pass it on.

The biggest challenge is that until you get up on foils on boats like this, you simply don't realise just how differently it handles. So many things you need to do are the exact opposite to what you have become conditioned to do over many years of sailing. It means it isn't just the physical challenge and the thrill, but its also an intellectual challenge as you try to work out what works and what doesn't, without wiping out and hurting yourself .

I am actually pleased to hear that your boat is still a challenge. I think this is where Doug's thinking is flawed, mainly due to lack of experience in these sort of boats, which I don't mean in an attacking way. His foiling experience is in heavy boats that don't rely on crew weight for RM and for fore and aft trim, which has a huge effect. It doesn't matter how good and easy you make it foil, you cannot change the basic "science" of lightweight foiling boats. Most people know that when sailing, if things start to go wrong, you ease the sails, They also know if you have a lot on downwind, you are safer to move back in the boat rather than forward. On a lightweight foiler, those can be the worst thing to do. If things are out of control and the boat is getting too high and scary fast, easing the sail is he worst thing you can do, so trying ti unlearn decades of auto-response gives us a challenge, and that's just the first thing. Position of bodyweight is another thing alomg the same lines.

The key thing is that the new learning is as big an attraction as the speed and the feeling of foiling. It combines to a total experience. I have seen world class cat sailors look really stupid first time out in a foiling A. The word is that Bundy sailed around for days without being able to foil properly. Now guys from the likes of him down to normal mortals like me are going through the same addictive experience. WOW! It's the only time I really feel sorty for Doug, because he so loves the idea of foiling yet he has never experienced just what is going on today.

 

[Charlie P Mayer]

A Class Sailor - you nailed it.

64 in May