2016 Olympic Multihull

[John Williams]

So who gets dropped and who is strong enough to keep the others out?

You might be right, Brooksie, but I think that as multihulls gain media and recognition, possibly even wider acceptance through the Extreme 40s and the America's Cup, displacement of the Finn will become easier. The restriction on the number of athletes is also an obstacle to overcome... but 2016 seems far enough away that anything's possible. Who would have imagined the Star on the sidelines?

 

[gavparker]

So who gets dropped and who is strong enough to keep the others out?

You might be right, Brooksie, but I think that as multihulls gain media and recognition, possibly even wider acceptance through the Extreme 40s and the America's Cup, displacement of the Finn will become easier. The restriction on the number of athletes is also an obstacle to overcome... but 2016 seems far enough away that anything's possible.

Changing the IOC's position on the number of athletes would have to be ISAF's number one priority wouldn't it? You'd think there would be plenty of arguments regarding emerging sports (kiting) and preferred viewer classes (cats, skiffs and matchracing) to see some growth. Women's match racing was a highlight over here in Perth. Stadium format with a huge number of races that were good to watch. The lasers were only popular because an Aussie was winning and the Finn's only got exposure because they created full contact sailing.

But seriously - the cost of infrastructure for sailing at the Olympics is massive. If they've spent the money on building the venue then adding some more classes won't add significantly to this cost. If I was the IOC I'd listen to arguments about growth which would amortise the cost of the venue per athlete....or I'd look at canning sailing altogether.

 

[Horse]

So who gets dropped and who is strong enough to keep the others out?

You might be right, Brooksie, but I think that as multihulls gain media and recognition, possibly even wider acceptance through the Extreme 40s and the America's Cup, displacement of the Finn will become easier. The restriction on the number of athletes is also an obstacle to overcome... but 2016 seems far enough away that anything's possible. Who would have imagined the Star on the sidelines?

sorry wrong guess on name

 

[Tornado-Cat]

If I was the IOC I'd listen to arguments about growth which would amortise the cost of the venue per athlete....or I'd look at canning sailing altogether.

Gav, can you write an intelligent or informed post one day ?

Read that part from the 2008 IOC report:

Revenue Generation

The Olympic Movement generates revenue through six major programmes. The IOC manages broadcast

partnerships, the TOP worldwide sponsorship programme and the IOC official supplier and licensing

programme. The Organising Committees for the Olympic Games (OCOGs) manage domestic sponsorship,

ticket sales and licensing programmes within the host country, under the direction of the IOC.

20 IOC

http://www.olympic.org/Documents/Reports/EN/en_report_1428.pdf

IOC is living through the money that get thanks to broadcasting, sponsorship programs, licensing and tickets.

Where did you see they would "amortise the cost of venue per athlete" with the growth ?

Be happy, that is also what our brilliant Isaf reps failed to see.

For the rest you are right, they could very well can the sailing altogether.

 

[gavparker]

I wasn't commenting for your benefit. In fact, feel free to ignore me. Please.

 

[drew584]

- the reason they did not come at the trials with equipment for girlies is that Dick Batt never told them about what was going to happen. Strangely the only brand who knew was the one that had a distributor working inside Isaf. Coincidence ? maybe...

Regards

T-C

Are you really saying that the Tornado class, presenting their boat for a mixed evaluation, did not know that girls were going to be sailing the Tornado at the trials. Surely you cant be saying that??? If so, give the T a rest because they dont deserve to be selected based solely on competence, or lack there of.

 

[Tornado_ALIVE]

A system that I will not use but that some of you may appreciate ...

Tried and Tested Lighter Tornado Sheeting Systems

NEW TORNADO Mainsheet System with 1:12

As Scarecrow said, most people are running 12:1 or 14:1. I don't know anyone using 8:1 anymore. With the new and stiffer carbon rig, sheet loads have increase a lot and so have purchases. So this 'New Tornado mainsheet system' is bollocks.

NEW TORNADO Gennacker Sheet System 1:2

1:2kite sheets. That should produce a lot of extra line on the tramp which off course will make the boat quicker and easier to use. I think you would find very few would use it at an Olympic level.

How about setting and retrieving. Are they going to add extra purchases here? That would surely be messy and awkward. This is a crucial area where strength and speed matters. Can't see anything changing here.

 

[Dingleberry]

Maybe you should shut up about this subject and you know why.

Nope, why? Tell everyone why I should shut up. Then tell everyone why they should listen to you about it. Whip back the curtain and tear off the mask like the predictable end to a Scooby-Doo episode.

Come on Roland, spit it out

 

[k2mav]

Maybe you should shut up about this subject and you know why.

Nope, why? Tell everyone why I should shut up. Then tell everyone why they should listen to you about it. Whip back the curtain and tear off the mask like the predictable end to a Scooby-Doo episode.

Come on Roland, spit it out

He is NOT Roland, 100% guarantee.

Don´t know who he is, I know from where he is posting though, and also know some language besides english he knows, not precisely German. All this depicted from him posting here only.

Comen on TC, what harm can be done? I think you'll gain respect on your opinions who ever you are, just signing them.

 

[Tornado-Cat]

Maybe you should shut up about this subject and you know why.

Nope, why? Tell everyone why I should shut up. Then tell everyone why they should listen to you about it. Whip back the curtain and tear off the mask like the predictable end to a Scooby-Doo episode.

Come on Roland, spit it out

I am not Roland, this is completely delusional.

 

[JimC]

But seriously - the cost of infrastructure for sailing at the Olympics is massive.

Actually its not: no stadium! Do the research.

 

[gavparker]

But seriously - the cost of infrastructure for sailing at the Olympics is massive.

Actually its not: no stadium! Do the research.

No stadium but there's still plenty of costs for the venue. Some sites such as Weymouth for London only need a tidy up. Others need to be built from scratch. It's still a case of once it's there ISAF should be trying to maximise the number of medals.

 

[Tony-F18]

2016 Women's Skiff And Mixed Multihull Evaluation Panel Reports And Recommendations Released

1 Recommendation The Evaluation Panel recommend consideration of two of the entrants, the NACRA 17 and the Viper.

The clear preference of the MNA Sailors and the Evaluation Panel was the innovative new NACRA 17.

Designed specifically for the Mixed Multihull criteria the Evaluation Panel concluded the NACRA 17 is seen

as the best option. Featuring curved dagger boards providing vertical lift, the NACRA 17 will carry a wider –

range of crew weight better than the 16 footers and is considerably lighter than a Formula 18. The modern

NACRA 17 also offers the sailors in the Mixed Multihull Event the exciting challenge of mastering the

potential lift of the curved daggerboards.

Of the six other entrants, the Viper was the second choice of the MNA Sailors. As an existing ISAF Class,

with over 50 boats waiting in stock, the Viper offers a rapid implementation. The MNA sailor feedback was

that some felt that they were at the upper limit of the competitive combined crew weight. The new NACRA

F16 was not seen to offer major advantages over the NACRA 17 or the established Viper.

The superbly-refined, and much admired Tornado at 20ft was judged too powerful by the female sailors. It

was considered that at highest level of Olympic competition the female sailor would inevitably be the helms

person, leaving the male crew to deal with the higher loads of the mainsheet and gennaker sheet. Only one

MNA sailor (a man) ranked the Tornado as their first choice.

The Hobie Tiger, a Formula 18, was the heaviest boat at the evaluations. Presented in ‘light crew’ mode, with

the smaller jib and gennaker, the balance of the rig was questioned. Only two sailors ranked the Tiger in their

top three choices.

The Hobie 16 with gennaker did not find support from the MNA Sailors. It failed to impress in respect of its

performance and sailing qualities when compared with the other boats presented. Only one sailor ranked the

Hobie 16 as a top three choice.

The Spitfire S is priced competitively with the Hobie 16. It was not popular with the MNA Sailors who would

have preferred a self-tacking jib and better organised controls.

 

[Board skiff]

Are you guys all asleep or have you bored yourselves to death with pointless arguing and propoganda?

The results are out, the experts (?!) have spoken. The N17 is the clear first choice, the Viper and T were liked. The Spitfire has probably sold it's last boat.

 

[DaveT]

Interesting reading, are spitfires really that bad?

 

[Pete Pollard]

No,the designers are that good I imagine. Surely design is approaching the limit?

 

[F16_wouter]

Are you guys all asleep or have you bored yourselves to death with pointless arguing and propoganda?

The results are out, the experts (?!) have spoken. The N17 is the clear first choice, the Viper and T were liked. The Spitfire has probably sold it's last boat.

Well, seems like reasonable final conclusion. I refer to the ISAF evaluation reports here not to the quote above

While the nacra 17 is clearly prefered I would not call the Viper "liked" and place the Tornado on a par with it.

I would say that the nacra 17 is the clear winner of the sailor reviews with the Viper a clear second and the Tornado being third at some distance. The other entries are simply not in the race any longer. I also think that the Viper and Nacra F16 are basically the same boat and that always cut into the points total of both.

Reading the desciptions I think the Tornado has bee dethroned. It received some sympathy points for its history but it is simply not as well suited to the mixed sailing criteria as the others. Changing the mainsheet setup to 1:20 or whatever doesn't alter that fact.

The nacra 17 is the winner but that is not surprising considering it was specifically designed for this evaluation and will set you back a 19.000 Euro ex taxes when buying one after october 2012. The AHPC Viper is quoted at 13.400 Euro ex taxes WITHOUT any time limit or other limitations. One sort of expects a stiffer boat when paying 42% more. Personally, I would have loved to see a 19.000 Euro (true) F16 at the trails, one that is at minimum class weight (= 107 kg or 25 kg lighter then N17). It would have smoked the competition and be the best thrill ride of the lot.

I personally feel that the F16's did exactly what they were designed to do. Be a very good all-round package for one of the lowest purchase costs.

With respect to the claim of being underpowered. A racecar driver once said that comparing the amount of HP is totally beside the point. The real intent of the game is to have the car that goes from one corner to the next the quickest. And ofcourse by implication "goes from start to finish the quickest". The Viper did so in the races in a convincing manner. The sailors may have felt underpowered, but performance wise they really weren't as bigger boats couldn't beat it over the line. They just didn't feel the grunt of the other designs in trying to be quick. Driving an F16 is more about finding the optimal balance between drag en drive rather then maximizing the power. That in itself should make it a better Olympic boat as unlocking the true speed of the F16's is more a test of skills. One comment about the F16's is that it was easy to find the speed. My question in return is "why do you think that that speed is the best you can get from a F16 ?". Many of the F16 sailors have found that there is another gear available when you fiddle about with the sail trim. I think Enrique has found that gear when he sailing (and coached) by Brett in the final races. To the horror of some of the other crews.

I personally feel the Viper still has some big points going for it when it comes to the final decision. Afterall, it is an established class with 250 boats around compared to 2 for the Nacra 17 (who cares how many Nacra 20C's have been sold so far ? That is totally irrelevant ). With only 4 years to go that is a significant consideration. Not to mention the Viper already has racing fleets all over the world, both as a OD and as a F16. The Nacra team promises lots of expert coaching where the Viper team has already been doing that for the last two years. Attracting poorer nations with a 13.400 Euro garanteed price is alot more promising then 19.000 after oct 2012. Lets not forget that boat selections of the olympics after 2016 are still open. The F16 is already an established class worldwide and so resale value of the boats will be garanteed. Can't say that of a yet non-existant class or a dying class like the Tornado.

My money is still on the Viper for the final selection because of these points. Afterall, the Viper is regarded as a "good to very good" design by the reviews (on a par with the Tornado in that respect) with only the Nacra 17 being regarded as a "very good" design. In my book, halfway to very good is good enough. As such it will still be many miles ahead of any other boat in the olympics ! This means that the other points will make or break the final selection.

However, I would like to give lots of praise to the Nacra 17 and its design team for taking the risk and designing the winner of the evaluation trials.

Wouter

 

[Tiger 11]

Interesting reading, are spitfires really that bad?

we don't have Spitfires in Aus. does anyone have a link or photos ?

 

[Tcatman]

Are you guys all asleep or have you bored yourselves to death with pointless arguing and propoganda?

The results are out, the experts (?!) have spoken. The N17 is the clear first choice, the Viper and T were liked. The Spitfire has probably sold it's last boat.

The choice of the N17 at 19,000 euro + tax and delivery or (25,100 USD plus tax and Delivery) assure me that this will be an Olympic class with little rank and file support for regional or national racing. I think this is a good thing because it won't screw with the steady class growth of F18's and F16's. OR the Spitfires

With nothing more then a 4 year Olympic cycle to count on.... Why would a non olympic sailor get this boat? Where and with whom are you going to race it and unless you plan on doing the ISAF grade I circuit... your racing could look like the Nacra carbon 20 scene. Should the ISAF world change in three years... You can add this boat to the Elliot 6 in the dead boat society. For an Olympic sailor... this is a great choice. The boat and rig are fixed and will not change. The class can be run exclusively for the pro's competing for Brazil. The boat is unique and can be marketed as the very very special Olympic catamaran.

Now... what will ISAF do.... select a very expensive boat Nacra 17 which leans to the upper range of the crew requirement over a much cheaper boat, Viperm which leans to the lower end of the crew requirement... The cycle is 4 years and the issue is how do they think the sport will play out at the ISAF level?

I bet they go Viper over the N17 for non technical reasons ... (I just hope that they can clearly state the reasons)

 

[Tornado-Cat]

That is good news, despite all the lobbies, manipulations, and nonsense Isaf criteria, the Nacra 17 with curved foils comes first.

IMO, it represents the boat of the future. For sure the F20c is better, but the N 17 will open to door to bigger boats to Olympic sailors.

Happy too, that the reason that "The superbly-refined, and much admired Tornado at 20ft" was only pushed aside because judged too powerful by the female sailors. This has nothing to do with the MNA sailors, and all to do with stupid Isaf decision of mixed sailing.

That means that the T is still in the course as tacks & blocks could allow women to be either helm or crew. All that is good news.

As I said, The Viper *at the upper limit of the competitive combined crew weight*.

This recommendations shows how wrong SimonN and the Viper troll squad were. I hope that, after all their slurs, insults, BS, they will now recognize they were wrong. Basically they have been trolling here.

Anyway, this is only the first step, the second one is a political one, and we can still be up for some surprises.