2016 Olympic Multihull

[SimonN]

So all banter aside, it's looking like the Viper and the Nacra 17 are duking it out for the spot. Any thoughts on who had the upper hand thus far?

I'd like to see the N17 beat out the Viper myself

As I said above, the N17 is the boat that has been clearly recommended by the evaluation panel, so they must have the upper hand. I think it highly unlikely that the various committees and the Council will vote in the Viper unless a significant number of NMA's come forward saying they will not try to compete in the mixed multi class if the N17 is chosen but would do if the Viper is chosen. I think that unless they also came armed with orders for boats, it wouldn't get them very far. I can see only 1 potential reason for not choosing the N17 and that is the cost.

What I cannot see happening is that the Viper will be chosen ahead of the N17 just on a simple vote. It has never worked like that with class selection. In fact, every single time an evaluation panel has recommended a class, it has been chosen. From everything I have seen, when it comes to new classes, I don't really think the NMA's care a great deal about which class is chosen. The battleground is the events themselves. People will fight to the death for a multi event, or keelboat, etc. The classes are another matter.

I think it is as good as done that the N17 will get selected.

 

[Hatin' life]

I'm still betting they'll pick the H16.

 

[hobie18rich]

I'm still betting they'll pick the H16.

No the Shark will be the clear choice.

 

[Tornado-Cat]

Amusing, the APHC troll squad is claiming that the N17 is a done deal and.... at the same time must be pulling all the political strings they can to reverse the sailors verdict.

Nothing is done until it is done and they know it very well, changes can be made at the last minute.

The US federation had a key role in flicking the multi, I will be very interested to know if they respect the sailors this time...

Tcatman ? I see you are here

 

[SimonN]

Amusing, the APHC troll squad is claiming that the N17 is a done deal and.... at the same time must be pulling all the political strings they can to reverse the sailors verdict.

I love the way you go on and on about me and APHC. You do know I have nothing to do with them, have never met the people involved with running the company and have no interest in whether the Viper is chosen ahead of any other boat or not. All I have ever said is that the Viper is a suitable boat and if it got chosen, I would not have a problem with it. It is you who has wanted to misinterpret that into something that it is not. I think that is what trolling is, ignoring the facts and twisting what other people say. But this is a consistant pattern in your posts. Anybody who has a different view to you is branded a troll. It is also noted that on every forum you participate on, your view is always not only in the minority, but you are so extreme you even alienate those with fairly similar views anyway.

 

[Tornado-Cat]

Amusing, the APHC troll squad is claiming that the N17 is a done deal and.... at the same time must be pulling all the political strings they can to reverse the sailors verdict.

I love the way you go on and on about me and APHC. You do know I have nothing to do with them, have never met the people involved with running the company and have no interest in whether the Viper is chosen ahead of any other boat or not. All I have ever said is that the Viper is a suitable boat and if it got chosen, I would not have a problem with it. It is you who has wanted to misinterpret that into something that it is not. I think that is what trolling is, ignoring the facts and twisting what other people say. But this is a consistant pattern in your posts. Anybody who has a different view to you is branded a troll. It is also noted that on every forum you participate on, your view is always not only in the minority, but you are so extreme you even alienate those with fairly similar views anyway.

Do you endorse the sailors choice ? I will be more than pleased to support you.

I also hope that the choice of Isaf aligned with the sailors this week will end this controversy.

 

[Tcatman]

Amusing, the APHC troll squad is claiming that the N17 is a done deal and.... at the same time must be pulling all the political strings they can to reverse the sailors verdict.

Nothing is done until it is done and they know it very well, changes can be made at the last minute.

The US federation had a key role in flicking the multi, I will be very interested to know if they respect the sailors this time...

Tcatman ? I see you are here

Yeah... I have no idea how the US will vote... they will have a change in olympic leadership and the field is wide open with respect to woman cat sailors.

IMO, The N17 will generate no grass roots support. (pricey and no OD fleet with no open class racing in many parts of the country to compete in) so the Olympic team will disappear into their own world. That will leave the rest of the fleets alone. I think it's a missed opportunity and won't get more woman racing cats at a high level.

If they pick the Viper, there will be a grass roots fleet that will interact with the Olympic wanna be's. I could see more girl girl teams competing in these grass roots with in this structure and so a viper would develop skills and a bigger pool of sailors. Is that a factor to US Olympic... probably not... They ID talent and drive to compete in the Olympics.. They don't need a OD fleet to develop talent. they will be much keener on getting a boat that suits their skiff sailors. They have more world class talent in skiffs and so what ever boat fits these girls will be the package they go with.

Hard to believe that the US vote will be decisive.. This is a political decision. Both boats are acceptable.

I think the money issue will matter. I think the appeal of more woman to crew on the 16 will tip the scales.

I think ISAF will not worry if established teams like the Gaeblers fit a 16 foot boat well. Olympic sailing is not a career path.

My hunch... its Viper and FX1 .... Big woman on the skiff and smaller woman on the cat considered with the 470 crews... this gives you 5 slots with two helm slots geared to small woman and the three crew slots geared to larger and intermediate sized woman. Max opportunities... Boys.. will fit in to make weight. After all this is mixed... there is nothing right about mixed... so just find a way to get through the quad and pray for the Finn to go away and men's multi to debut.

cynical old guys in the US believe that the Star will return and the Finn is forever... best lobbies going. so... if we screw this up and don't generate the number of woman... my old cynic friend will be right!

 

[SimonN]

Amusing, the APHC troll squad is claiming that the N17 is a done deal and.... at the same time must be pulling all the political strings they can to reverse the sailors verdict.

I love the way you go on and on about me and APHC. You do know I have nothing to do with them, have never met the people involved with running the company and have no interest in whether the Viper is chosen ahead of any other boat or not. All I have ever said is that the Viper is a suitable boat and if it got chosen, I would not have a problem with it. It is you who has wanted to misinterpret that into something that it is not. I think that is what trolling is, ignoring the facts and twisting what other people say. But this is a consistant pattern in your posts. Anybody who has a different view to you is branded a troll. It is also noted that on every forum you participate on, your view is always not only in the minority, but you are so extreme you even alienate those with fairly similar views anyway.

Do you endorse the sailors choice ? I will be more than pleased to support you.

I also hope that the choice of Isaf aligned with the sailors this week will end this controversy.

First off, it is only you and Roland who is making this a controversy. Most of the rest of us see due process at work.

It's a good question whether I endorse the sailors choice. In some ways I do. From the viewpoint of only the sailors, I think the N17 is the best boat for the job and, to surprise you further, I don't even think it was the best boat at the trials. The best boat was the Tornado, but it is totally inappropriate.

The real question is whether the N17 is the best boat for the olympics, and that is a very different question from whether I think it is the best boat to sail. Tcatman puts the points very well. He points out something I hadn't considered and that is the overall spread of weight within all classes. His argument makes sense. I also have real concerns about the pricepoint of the N17. Finally, I am not convinced that choosing the N17 is the best boat for the future ambitions of multihull sailing in the Olympics. I hope we can all agree that the ideal for 2020 would be to have a womens and a mens multihull. In fact, back before the vote to get rid of multihulls, that very proposal nearly got carried. IMO, that will not happen if it means 2 new classes for 2020 and as such, we need to ensure that whatever is chosen for the mixed event can be used as a womens class in 2020.

I simply do not have enough information to be able to decide whether the N17 fits the criteria I have suggested. If it does, it would have my wholehearted support. However, if it is too powerful to become a womens multi, I would have severe reservations.

 

[Tcatman]

Amusing, the APHC troll squad is claiming that the N17 is a done deal and.... at the same time must be pulling all the political strings they can to reverse the sailors verdict.

I love the way you go on and on about me and APHC. You do know I have nothing to do with them, have never met the people involved with running the company and have no interest in whether the Viper is chosen ahead of any other boat or not. All I have ever said is that the Viper is a suitable boat and if it got chosen, I would not have a problem with it. It is you who has wanted to misinterpret that into something that it is not. I think that is what trolling is, ignoring the facts and twisting what other people say. But this is a consistant pattern in your posts. Anybody who has a different view to you is branded a troll. It is also noted that on every forum you participate on, your view is always not only in the minority, but you are so extreme you even alienate those with fairly similar views anyway.

Do you endorse the sailors choice ? I will be more than pleased to support you.

I also hope that the choice of Isaf aligned with the sailors this week will end this controversy.

First off, it is only you and Roland who is making this a controversy. Most of the rest of us see due process at work.

It's a good question whether I endorse the sailors choice. In some ways I do. From the viewpoint of only the sailors, I think the N17 is the best boat for the job and, to surprise you further, I don't even think it was the best boat at the trials. The best boat was the Tornado, but it is totally inappropriate.

The real question is whether the N17 is the best boat for the olympics, and that is a very different question from whether I think it is the best boat to sail. Tcatman puts the points very well. He points out something I hadn't considered and that is the overall spread of weight within all classes. His argument makes sense. I also have real concerns about the pricepoint of the N17. Finally, I am not convinced that choosing the N17 is the best boat for the future ambitions of multihull sailing in the Olympics. I hope we can all agree that the ideal for 2020 would be to have a womens and a mens multihull. In fact, back before the vote to get rid of multihulls, that very proposal nearly got carried. IMO, that will not happen if it means 2 new classes for 2020 and as such, we need to ensure that whatever is chosen for the mixed event can be used as a womens class in 2020.

I simply do not have enough information to be able to decide whether the N17 fits the criteria I have suggested. If it does, it would have my wholehearted support. However, if it is too powerful to become a womens multi, I would have severe reservations.

I will make the argument that it is not just YOU (or me) that can't decide on this issue.

The test pilots were volunteers sent by their MNA's

The skill and experience level in multi's was not controlled.

The Olympic campaign experience was not controlled

They represented the major sailing nations... Not the entire world.

The weight range of the sailors ???

The weight range + experience ???

All votes were equal.... sometimes... the #s did not add up.

These were critiques leveled BEFORE the trials even started. Now... ISAF did the best they could with this selection model

BUT that does not mean that tablets were handed down from god to us.

I think the judges SHOULD parse the data and evaluate the results independently of the summary position of the evaluation committee.

 

[teamvmg]

Why don't you two just e-mail each other - you are pissing everyone off!

 

[Hatin' life]

I think Simon has been pretty level headed, and has some valid points. The other dude? Not so much.

 

[Tornado-Cat]

1) IMO, The N17 will generate no grass roots support. If they pick the Viper, there will be a grass roots fleet that will interact with the Olympic wanna be's.

2) Hard to believe that the US vote will be decisive.. This is a political decision. Both boats are acceptable.

3) I think the money issue will matter. I think the appeal of more woman to crew on the 16 will tip the scales.

4) cynical old guys in the US believe that the Star will return and the Finn is forever... best lobbies going. so... if we screw this up and don't generate the number of woman... my old cynic friend will be right!

1) Why do you think that ? a boat has to be attractive in order to generate grass roots and the sailors chose. With a non attractive boat you will just have the selected ones willing to get a medal and the grass root will go with the Kite.

N17 has the techno and represent the future like the 49er to attracks youth.

2) No more decisive than another but interesting to watch as the last time they sided with the ass holes.

3) The difference is not only small, but the budget is not spent on the boat but on the campaign.

4) You know what, I will be even more cynical, if they reinstate the Star and keep the Finn it could be good news as sailing would probably disapear from the Olympics and that would be an excellent occasion to clean the Augean stables.

 

[Tornado-Cat]

The test pilots were volunteers sent by their MNA's

The skill and experience level in multi's was not controlled.

The Olympic campaign experience was not controlled

They represented the major sailing nations... Not the entire world.

The weight range of the sailors ???

The weight range + experience ???

All votes were equal.... sometimes... the #s did not add up.

I think the judges SHOULD parse the data and evaluate the results independently of the summary position of the evaluation committee.

Absolutely right, the MNA reps had very uncontrolled skills and experience, it was reported by many.

So, even if not trained, they can handle and prefer the N17, Olympic competitors will do it even more easily.

Same for the target range, we know that some of the most skilled sailors had to stay on shore because too heavy in order to give place to the lighter and less experienced ones.

So you want the judges to ignore the choice of the sailors, on what basis ? That would be a terrible mistake, one that we have never seen in the precedent trials.

 

[Tornado-Cat]

I simply do not have enough information to be able to decide whether the N17 fits the criteria I have suggested. If it does, it would have my wholehearted support. However, if it is too powerful to become a womens multi, I would have severe reservations.

More info is not required.

MNA representative females with different skills and experience all agree that the N17 is easy to crew and to helm, why would it be the different later ?

 

[Tcatman]

1) IMO, The N17 will generate no grass roots support. If they pick the Viper, there will be a grass roots fleet that will interact with the Olympic wanna be's.

2) Hard to believe that the US vote will be decisive.. This is a political decision. Both boats are acceptable.

3) I think the money issue will matter. I think the appeal of more woman to crew on the 16 will tip the scales.

4) cynical old guys in the US believe that the Star will return and the Finn is forever... best lobbies going. so... if we screw this up and don't generate the number of woman... my old cynic friend will be right!

1) Why do you think that ? a boat has to be attractive in order to generate grass roots and the sailors chose. With a non attractive boat you will just have the selected ones willing to get a medal and the grass root will go with the Kite.

N17 has the techno and represent the future like the 49er to attracks youth.

2) No more decisive than another but interesting to watch as the last time they sided with the ass holes.

3) The difference is not only small, but the budget is not spent on the boat but on the campaign.

4) You know what, I will be even more cynical, if they reinstate the Star and keep the Finn it could be good news as sailing would probably disapear from the Olympics and that would be an excellent occasion to clean the Augean stables.

I don't think the N17 is significantly different from the F18 class or the F16 class. ... so the grass roots would be investing in a new class that is slightly nicer. The only difference is that the 17 has curved boards... Do you think that feature is a game changer and Why?

 

[Tornado-Cat]

1) IMO, The N17 will generate no grass roots support. If they pick the Viper, there will be a grass roots fleet that will interact with the Olympic wanna be's.

2) Hard to believe that the US vote will be decisive.. This is a political decision. Both boats are acceptable.

3) I think the money issue will matter. I think the appeal of more woman to crew on the 16 will tip the scales.

4) cynical old guys in the US believe that the Star will return and the Finn is forever... best lobbies going. so... if we screw this up and don't generate the number of woman... my old cynic friend will be right!

1) Why do you think that ? a boat has to be attractive in order to generate grass roots and the sailors chose. With a non attractive boat you will just have the selected ones willing to get a medal and the grass root will go with the Kite.

N17 has the techno and represent the future like the 49er to attracks youth.

2) No more decisive than another but interesting to watch as the last time they sided with the ass holes.

3) The difference is not only small, but the budget is not spent on the boat but on the campaign.

4) You know what, I will be even more cynical, if they reinstate the Star and keep the Finn it could be good news as sailing would probably disapear from the Olympics and that would be an excellent occasion to clean the Augean stables.

I don't think the N17 is significantly different from the F18 class or the F16 class. ... so the grass roots would be investing in a new class that is slightly nicer. The only difference is that the 17 has curved boards... Do you think that feature is a game changer and Why?

Absolutely agree, the N17 is very, very close from the F18.

Now, if Isaf had really been willing to have a grass root cat they would have chosen the F18 which is the most commonly seen on beaches and in races (Texel and Eurocat are good examples). The reason is simple: racers want a fast and good cat but easy to transport. That is the main issue with the Tornado.

So, with the N17 they will have a bigger cat than the F16, still easy to sail and also easy to transport.

I think the foils can bring two things: novelty (I know it is psychological but it is real) and more fun and speed (I did not say VMG). Basically it is cool, as is the Kite.

 

[Tcatman]

1) IMO, The N17 will generate no grass roots support. If they pick the Viper, there will be a grass roots fleet that will interact with the Olympic wanna be's.

2) Hard to believe that the US vote will be decisive.. This is a political decision. Both boats are acceptable.

3) I think the money issue will matter. I think the appeal of more woman to crew on the 16 will tip the scales.

4) cynical old guys in the US believe that the Star will return and the Finn is forever... best lobbies going. so... if we screw this up and don't generate the number of woman... my old cynic friend will be right!

1) Why do you think that ? a boat has to be attractive in order to generate grass roots and the sailors chose. With a non attractive boat you will just have the selected ones willing to get a medal and the grass root will go with the Kite.

N17 has the techno and represent the future like the 49er to attracks youth.

2) No more decisive than another but interesting to watch as the last time they sided with the ass holes.

3) The difference is not only small, but the budget is not spent on the boat but on the campaign.

4) You know what, I will be even more cynical, if they reinstate the Star and keep the Finn it could be good news as sailing would probably disapear from the Olympics and that would be an excellent occasion to clean the Augean stables.

I don't think the N17 is significantly different from the F18 class or the F16 class. ... so the grass roots would be investing in a new class that is slightly nicer. The only difference is that the 17 has curved boards... Do you think that feature is a game changer and Why?

Absolutely agree, the N17 is very, very close from the F18.

Now, if Isaf had really been willing to have a grass root cat they would have chosen the F18 which is the most commonly seen on beaches and in races (Texel and Eurocat are good examples). The reason is simple: racers want a fast and good cat but easy to transport. That is the main issue with the Tornado.

So, with the N17 they will have a bigger cat than the F16, still easy to sail and also easy to transport.

I think the foils can bring two things: novelty (I know it is psychological but it is real) and more fun and speed (I did not say VMG). Basically it is cool, as is the Kite.

I don't understand you, ... why will the grass roots move the N17? The cool factor?

It will be the Olympic boat... just like the Tornado with less impact on us.. Do we actually agree?

 

[SimonN]

I simply do not have enough information to be able to decide whether the N17 fits the criteria I have suggested. If it does, it would have my wholehearted support. However, if it is too powerful to become a womens multi, I would have severe reservations.

More info is not required.

MNA representative females with different skills and experience all agree that the N17 is easy to crew and to helm, why would it be the different later ?

I think you miss the point. I agree that women can either crew or helm, but if the N17 was chosen as a women only class, would the ideal weight mean that it would severely limit the number of all women crew who could sail it? Would we end up with another 470, where most countries are really struggling to find female crew who are big enough.

 

[gavparker]

Just read that the evaluation committee recommended excluding some of the women's skiffs from their selection. Whereas none of the multihulls have been excluded. So I guess this means as far as the selection committee is concerned, any of the boats presented will be an acceptable choice.

So it comes back to that universality and participation argument....The N17 while the most preferred boat by the evaluation folks doesn't meet many of the other bigger picture criteria (you get to test drive a Porsche, BMW and Hyundai and see which one you prefer...). The H16 probably goes too far the other way - heaps of participation but no performance.

 

[F16_wouter]

"Now, if Isaf had really been willing to have a grass root cat they would have chosen the F18 which is the most commonly seen on beaches and in races (Texel and Eurocat are good examples). "

Talking about grass roots sailing. There were 30+ F16's at Carnac racing this weekend (Viper, Falcon, Nacra and Bimare), most with mixed crews. Additionally, The F16 makers have succesfully been running training camps and lending out boats the world over ; USA, Canada, Belgium, Netherlands, Australia, Singapore. The video's are on youtube (proof). If the olympic boat is to support grass root sailing then ISAF should choose an F16 (Viper or Nacra) and certainly not the Nacra 17 as introducing a rival grass root cats will only confuse and divide that part of the scene. What's the benefit of that ? Additionally, purchase price is a big factor in developing grass roots sailing. How do I know ? Because the F16 class succeeded where the others like the Hobie FX-one and nacra Inter 17 failed. We have been around that block the last 10 years. Mom and Dad (where it all really starts) don't "campaign" their boats and they really do believe that €6000 difference is alot. Especially when the difference is typified by 10 inches hull length and 1% or 2% speed difference. I say the mixed teams have already decided for themselves, they are currently racing the H16's and F16's with the latter class growing considerably. They are not flocking to the F18 or Tornado class and the Nacra 17 is still a maybe in this respect. With the significant purchase prize difference and the huge head start of the F16's I really don't see many if indeed anyone at all switching classes from the F16 to the Nacra 17. So if indeed grass roots sailing is a factor in the decision then it certainly does not favour the 17 foot option in the short list.