2018 Rolex Sydney Hobart Yacht Race: The Race Committee has lodged a protest against Wild Oats XI

[Kermit]

Then why does the engineer effectively say " I can't see a reason why anybody would want to turn it off " when his boat had a custom fitted switch for exactly that purpose ? He might even have been the guy who fitted the switch.

you are dick. The switch could be there for the reasons i previously stated which has nothing to do with any engineers opinion. i was simply stating that they are not guilty if it is possible to turn AIS off which you could clearly read... 

 

[staysail]

Do you actually have some evidence of that?

Just to be clear - In my view, if any other boat can be shown to not have their AIS on when the SIs explicitly required them, they too should should be penalized.  This is not about WOXI, its about understanding and respect for the rules, and the level playing field that should result.

I have only sailed in the US, Caribbean and Europe. In my experience, the Europeans seem to universally use AIS whereas the American's use it when it suits them.  The European races I have participated in all have explicitly required that the AIS be used.  The American races almost all have optional use.  I personally prefer optional since I feel as if the use of AIS results in less interesting racing (e.g. follow the leader) but regardless of how I feel about it, rules are rules.

Agree.

I have been racing in Europe and the Atlantic in fleets where not everyone even has AIS! If you have a small boat and not much money why should you be forced to buy an AIS kit if you want to go racing?

Racing has been fine long before AIS was invented and racing does not need it and so I think its use should be entirely optional. Making it a race rule seems unnecessary and bordering on the stupid because its just asking for disputes like this to crop up and spoil the sport.

But, let's not pretend that having the AIS plot of all your opponents isn't a great help, especially if they don't have yours!

 

[DarkHorse]

Whats sad is that going forward, everyone can turn it off without impact. Either they don''t get protested or all they have to say is that they had the switch in the on position and they get off scott free.

The goal of safety has gone out the door.

It was unfair for the other boats to be seen but not WOXI, but the goal of the rule was safety - hard to believe the RC is not authorized to maintain the safety rules. Guess life rafts are optional now too?

 

[hiphip]

Yes, but only if: 1. As soon as they saw it on their screen that WOXI was not displayed they put up a red flag (days ago); 2. They informed WOXI as soon as possible; 3. They fill out a protest form within the time limit.

They do not get to learn about it when they hit the dock and initiate a protest as the information was available to them for days.  This protest would not get very far either.

Because this is a safety issue I don’t understand why a boat can’t protest if they finding out after getting to the dock. 

 

[Rail Meat]

Whats sad is that going forward, everyone can turn it off without impact. Either they don''t get protested or all they have to say is that they had the switch in the on position and they get off scott free.

The goal of safety has gone out the door.

It was unfair for the other boats to be seen but not WOXI, but the goal of the rule was safety - hard to believe the RC is not authorized to maintain the safety rules. Guess life rafts are optional now too?

Which is why for the RdR they required that we have AIS on and transmitting at the dock for 24+ hours before the race.  That way there would be no excuses about it not functioning.

I have been incredibly fortunate to be able to do some amazing racing.  I am going to keep racing in the events that are readily available to me, but my bucket list of remaining races that I would really regret not being able to do  to do is pretty short: the Middle Sea race, a Transpac and/or Pac Cup, and Sidney Hobart.  God help me, but I even have gone so far as to give some thought to the logistics and cost of getting Dragon down to Australia to do the race, even knowing that it would be a lark given that there are no other Class40s down there to get any class racing in.  This outcome takes some of the shine off the race, knowing that rules won's be enforced and boats can get away with unfair advantages without honor.

 

[Kermit]

Because they are not dicks, and probably want to get to the bar asap. It's over, no one lodged a valid protest and no one finishing now would care. 

There are rules for protests too. I wish WOXI had done the right thing, and I'm not sure they did but it's up to the competitors to protest if WOXI doesn't retire. And there is no reason they should retire as they have clearly stated that they thought they were transmitting. Richo's statement at the dock is not conclusive because he was asked about a tracker.. not AIS. Investigative journalism is not in that person's future. 

PS- I am happy for the result but no fan of any boat. I thought it was a great race.

 

[DarkHorse]

..and the fact that WOXI could see the speed and shifts of their competitors, and their competitors could not, doesn't matter?

As Paul Elvstrom famously stated, '"You haven't won the race, if in winning the race you have lost the respect of your competitors."

WOXI should just go buy a pickle dish - it would be cheaper and they wouldn't look like dicks in the end....

 

[shanghaisailor]

There will always be those who either don't play by, or don't understand, the rules.

If, and it is an  "IF", WOXI was not transmitting AND they knew it then Basic Principles in the RRS states they should retire. But it is an IF! No accusations.

If, and this time I don't think it is an IF, Blackjack thought WOXI wasn't transmitting then they should have protested.

We are a self policing sport and when I run rules seminars I always make two points right at the beginning.

1. You should use the rules to the absolute limit -and that includes all relevant rules, the RRS, the SI's any class rules or national prescriptions etc (that's what they are there for) BUT you can only do that if you know the rules or you may overstep the mark. I would expect anyone on the race course to have rules knowledge. Could you imagine playing chess if you didn't know how to move the knight?

2. If you think someone has overstepped that mark then you SHOULD protest otherwise the self policing concept falls apart. At the very least if their infraction is through ignorance they will know the next time. 

The protest procedure has two functions in my view, firstly to penalise the deliberate rule breakers and secondly to educate those sailors who don't know the rules sufficiently.

The other thing that needs to happen is for the media, social media and anti social media to change their mindset and stop calling a protestor the bad boy. Talk of a race win through a protest being "hollow" is WRONG. However a race win through not following the rules most certainly is a hollow victory. Again - no accusations.

As Dark Horse stated "You don't win a race etc etc" - Elvstrom would be turning  in his grave.

SS

 

[Big Show]

Apologists be like - 'i touched a mark that no one else saw, didn't spin and wasn't protested... but it didn't change the race outcome so I'm still happy to hold up this trophy....'

It's a little thing but it's everything. 

 

[TPG]

Whats sad is that going forward, everyone can turn it off without impact. Either they don''t get protested or all they have to say is that they had the switch in the on position and they get off scott free.

The goal of safety has gone out the door.

It was unfair for the other boats to be seen but not WOXI, but the goal of the rule was safety - hard to believe the RC is not authorized to maintain the safety rules. Guess life rafts are optional now too?

 No, the rules and repercussions will be spelled out. Stop crying.

 

[Wess]

Wow, SA is getting soft.  Only 4 pages 12 hours post protest decision?!  I expected better.

  * WOXI is the best (re)designed and (re)built boat for the (In shore / coastal) ocean races like the S2H.

  * WOXI sailed the best race tactically and her not broadcasting AIS had nothing to do with the others screwing up and letting her through; if they can't figure out where she is and what she is doing when she is that close they are wankers who need a naviguesser who can step away from the computer screen once in a while and go up on deck and look around.

  * Outside of Team USA BWM Oracle or whatever those AC tosser were named, WOXI are the best cheaters in sailing.

  * Somebody said that Mark Richards is the biggest embarrassment in sailing though the Oatley family is in second and coming on fast; both are slated to join the Trump Administration (needed a PA angle)

#are they really all decedents of British convicts?

h34r:

OK come on now I expect to see at least another 10 pages by the time I am back from sailing.  Go...

 

[JasonSeibert]

The tech behind AIS is pretty cool, but it's also limited.
For those that don't know (I'll keep this quick), AIS is a mesh-based information system and when used with a transceiver (not just a receiver) produces, receives and relays information to any other device within the mesh network within its range.

What can impact the range or the ability to transmit and receive?

AIS works off of VHF radio technology - pretty slick actually, but it requires a GPS input signal to create data relative to the transmitting boat, and must have a VHF antennae to receiver other signals from other boats and transmit that information and its own information to other members of the mesh. IF there were sufficient boats within line of sight, you could see every boat in the fleet during the RS2H race. So, if an AIS signal is not being received, the first question should be: Were they outside of the line of sight transmission capability of the sending and/or receiving unit? 

That's right - you have to take into account both stations. Recently I was moving my boat to Miami from Palm Beach for the start of the Miami to Nassau Race. Another competitor was about 10 miles ahead of me (unbeknownst to either of us) and saw my boat pop up on his AIS. He called me on the phone and joked that we should race to the marina for beers. I mentioned that I couldn't see him, to which he replied, "I know, I've got a transmission issue somewhere in my system." AIS transceiver connected to a dedicated antennae? What's the height of the whip? did you solder the connections? Are they gold connections? Did you use dielectric gel? What's the impedance of the cable? Are you using a splitter? Is the splitter powered? Does the splitter have power? Is the antennae tuned to work as an AIS antennae for max distance? 

From a personal AIS standpoint, the ability to receive and transmit is PARAMOUNT. MAN OVER BOARD!!! great! Pull the personal AIS and the ENTIRE fleet can know where you are if EVERYONE's equipment is working properly at max distance increasing the chance of rescue, not just by the fleet but by coast guard as well. Imagine how easy it is for rescue teams to home in on a personal AIS from 50 miles out if EVERYONE in the mesh system is working properly. But if a racer is in "stealth" mode, that poor bastard in the water doesn't get transmitted to the rest of the mesh. Example, Wild Oats loses a guy. Assuming that crew are wearing personal AIS, the chartplotter should get an immediate notification and overlay of the gps location, but that's limited to about 3 miles maximum. At night, going 24 miles per hour, that poor floating bastard could be out of transmission range long before he's noticed gone, and long before Oats can get her rig in order to turn around. However, IF she was NOT in stealth mode, her mast could have not only received the signal, but ALSO sent it to the rest of the fleet, at which point multiple boats would get an AIS notification of a MOB, with GPS coordinates, etc.

AIS is NOT just about a tactical advantage. So, anywho, just some thoughts on how cool AIS is, and why it's important that it works all the time.

Cheers.

Jason

 

 

[jack_sparrow]

Can't anyone who is still racing, lodge a protest now?

Yes, but only if: 1. As soon as they saw it on their screen that WOXI was not displayed they put up a red flag (days ago); 2. They informed WOXI as soon as possible; 3. They fill out a protest form within the time limit.

They do not get to learn about it when they hit the dock and initiate a protest as the information was available to them for days.  This protest would not get very far either

WARNING

I’m sleep deprived and fucked. Following a lousy day race on line has killed me more than a VG or god forbid a real RTW one.

If you have some smart fuck reply without some degree of intelligence (not much required) to this post be warned. I will send @mad and my ex mother in law around to your place to tear your bloody arms off. The  latter is good at it. I can only now type using my nose and in upper case using my dick.

As every good story needs a Prelude, this is mine.

PRELUDE

I have no one to thank. I do apologise however to those who are thinking “why hasn’t the Sparrow given me a Likey today. I ran out because it seems there is some limit here on SA after Randumb gave me 567 dislikes in 30 minutes and the ED noticed something was amiss.

So to those two posts above which has sent my nose going mad. Chopper a useless fool at best and Glenn who has forgotten more about RRS than most here know except @shanghaisailor,  graciously replies to the fool? What is that I say to myself, Glenn stops there like a pregnant lady caught crossing the street and no more?

THE STORY

Glenn you lazy sod there is one mechanism available, much as I think it is an abhorrent rule in its current form.

In this case we have here a Protest by the RC that has been determined by the IJ to be invalid so normally end of story.

However if any competitor or non-competitors alike were of the view the PC/IJ were not provided with a true statement of fact by the Protester, in this case the RC, and used by and as published by the PC/IJ to principally support their decision to deem the Protest invalid, then that decision is potentially open to being overruled under Rule 69 on the basis the facts presented by the Protester, in this case by a RC and having far wider implications than a sole protester, so bringing the sport into disrepute under Rule 69.

It may sound like a long bow to draw but if any aspect of those facts presented by the RC to the PC/IJ are shown to be factually incorrect and they are instrumental to the decision made by the PC/IJ, then it is game on. To avoid any misunderstanding and state the obvious this prospect of a Rule 69 Protest by a third party has nothing to do with WOXI infringing or not. It is directed solely at the RC and the facts they presented to the PC/IJ. The aguement is because of this the PC/IJ had no option but to rule the RC's own Protest invalid, thus prventing the nature of the Protest being properly examined and determined. 

I would not mention this aspect unless I believed it applied here and in particular these statements of fact as  presented by the RC and read in conjunction. They are:

Facts Found: Facts on Validity

1. Black Jack and Wild Oats Xl both competed in the Rolex Sydney Hobart Yacht Race 2018 (the Race).

2. Shortly after finishing, the owner of Black Jack submitted a report to the Race Committee alleging that Wild Oats Xl's AIS "had not transmitted throughout" the Race.

3. Prior to the report, the Race Committee had "no knowledge of an issue" with Wild Oats Xl's AIS.

4. As a result of receiving the report, the Race Committee conducted an investigation into AIS tracking records in respect of Wild Oats Xl. The Race Committee obtained evidence from its own investigation that Wild Oats Xl may have breached Sl 11.4 and therefore submitted the protest.

Diagram: Not Applicable.

http://www.rolexsydneyhobart.com/media/3438889/ccf29122018.pdf

Put simply #3 (my bold emphasis) is horseshit unless the RC were hiding under a rock while the RO's own media people were launching off the boat interviews into the Interweb and national TV stations were all falling over them selves to keep up with live crosses. This is where BJ's complaint came to light, not some report lodged with the RC hours later.

Now Glen I have a very big question of you. But before asking it I note you and I have very similar views and we both clearly don’t have a dog in the fight as indicated by our respective posts below, albeit in your case you were disadvantaged by not having full information to hand making yours thinking a competitor protest was afoot, due to time zone delay in the USA  3rd world.

Chickenshit to turn off AIS, Chickenshit to protest over it.

If Matt Allen as President of AS has any balls he should put Harburg/Bradford and Oatley/Richards in a room and read them the riot act. Harburg for not protesting but having a cry on national TV and Oatley for doing what ever they fuckin did to make this shitfight appear in peoples lounge rooms.

I betcha he doesn't as that Oatley trough of money that Australia Sailing's snout is in, is way too big to put at risk.  

QUESTION FOR GLENN

Mate do you reakon a Rule 69 Protest by a third-party as outlined above are "time barred" under RRS, noting boats are still out there on the course into tomorrow? Don't confuse this request with one of Protest prospects, but do note there are many crazy fuckers online with funny names with more money than God and may have some New Year save sailing resolution going..

Don't chicken out on me now Glenn.

 

[Cal20sailor]

I want what you're drinking.  

 

[DarkHorse]

wouldn't it be interesting if a 4ksb heard of this as they hit the dock and then protested woxi within her time limit, and used the RC investigation as a fact?

 

[Rain Man]

... (lots of ad hominem attack bs due to lack of a sound argument)

Intention has nothing to do with it.

The log shows it was not working.  There is no excuse.  They are either cheats or incompetent.

... (more ad hominem attack bs due to lack of a sound argument)

It sounds to me like you desperately want to believe that WOXI cheated, but can't prove it, so now you're just saying it over and over again hoping that no-one will notice the lack of proof.  In your statement above you admit that they might not have been cheating, but simply incompetent.  

But wait, didn't you say that they are "proven" to have cheated?  Which one is it?  Do try to keep up with your own statements, will you.  

 

[jack_sparrow]

I want what you're drinking.

I'm not a drinker..I don't go to the meetings.

 

[ateam]

 Could not still any yacht which is about to finish log a protest? Maybe the second line honours boat should convince someone......;-)

 

[Cal20sailor]

 Could not still any yacht which is about to finish log a protest? Maybe the second line honours boat should convince someone......;-)

I'm sorry, but the best thing would be to bury this with a shovel and then bury the shovel.  

 

[jack_sparrow]

I'm sorry, but the best thing would be to bury this with a shovel and then bury the shovel.  

Spoken from someone from the US where sailing is already dead in the water and who doesn't give two fucks about Australian sailing and any ramifications this fuckup may have world wide. Chime out if your bored...or to to be blunt.. fuck off.