2018 Rolex Sydney Hobart Yacht Race: The Race Committee has lodged a protest against Wild Oats XI

DarkHorse

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Bury it? 

#1 - the safety issue - AIS is primarily to manage racing yachts in the shipping lanes. If the RC/ISAF allows this to be buried, AND when a boat gets hit in the shipping lanes, who has the liability when its clear the RCs state a requirement (and get regualtory approval for the race) and failed to enforce it. The RC should enforce as a clear Safety Regulation issue. If they can't protest since someone told them about the safety issue, then they can at least dissallow WOXIs entry in next years race!

#2 - Tactitical issue - everyone has a tracker and AIS - if WOXI didn't transmit either, is it considered okay? Wonder what would have happend if BJ had told the race committee of it in the middle of the race during a position report? Is the RC then allowed to protest? Or does the RC have to monitor and check every safety operation on every boat?

 

Cal20sailor

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Bury it? 

#1 - the safety issue - AIS is primarily to manage racing yachts in the shipping lanes. If the RC/ISAF allows this to be buried, AND when a boat gets hit in the shipping lanes, who has the liability when its clear the RCs state a requirement (and get regualtory approval for the race) and failed to enforce it. The RC should enforce as a clear Safety Regulation issue. If they can't protest since someone told them about the safety issue, then they can at least dissallow WOXIs entry in next years race!

#2 - Tactitical issue - everyone has a tracker and AIS - if WOXI didn't transmit either, is it considered okay? Wonder what would have happend if BJ had told the race committee of it in the middle of the race during a position report? Is the RC then allowed to protest? Or does the RC have to monitor and check every safety operation on every boat?
So what do you propose?  The PC has made a decision.  This race is special and my comment was that everyone, especially us armchair racers, should drop it and let the race maintain some dignity.  Do I agree with the decision, of course not, every rule matters.  The fact that the IJ acted like a bunch of eunuchs, so what.  WOXI would have won with it turned on and their arrogance is off the charts, but it is time to move on.  

PS. BJ are just as bad as WOXI.  

 

DarkHorse

Member
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29
This needs to be answered not just for WOXI, but going forward will/can AIS be required since there is no way to 'prove' they turned it off or they just have faulty gear on board (probably can't protest on negligent maintenance, but lawyers can sure jump on it if there is a death).

I have no dog in the fight, and have no way of knowing the facts - but it should be investigated, else AIS is dead as a 'requirement' going forward.

 

Guvacine

Member
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North CA
Have we had anyone from the race management team explain why no one other than Sailing Anarchy forum members and the odd retired Qantas Engineer on the lower north shore of Sydney seemed to watch the AIS tracks throughout the race?  After making their use mandatory in the SI's???

Its just so  ... odd. And frustrating.
Its not that odd. It happens all of the time. Its called the influence of money and power. No one in the jury, race committee or club, wants to stand up to the vested interests who just want this to go away. They are all (individually) thinking about their futures. Basically shows that "sailing" in the Corinthian sense is fucked.

 
If W.O's AIS was in fact turned off, RC must have known it. They have the power to penalize W.O.. Black Jack should have filed a protest, but I'm sympathetic to anyone protesting this kind of thing from a sour grapes perspective. I think RCs should enforce it as they do scheduled radio check ins and safety equipment post and pre-race inspections. AIS can be checked by anyone with marinetraffic.com website.

 
I would recommend the following be added to next year's S.I's.[SIZE=10pt]"RC should make it clear it is either (a) obligation of competitors to file formal protest of boats they allege didn't broadcast AIS, or (b) RC reserves the right to penalize boats it determined did not broadcast AIS and state, if possible, penalty for not broadcasting. [which I believe would act as a deterrent.][/SIZE]

 





 

See Level

Working to overcome my inner peace
From Jack's post above,

"Facts Found: Facts on Validity

1. Black Jack and Wild Oats Xl both competed in the Rolex Sydney Hobart Yacht Race 2018 (the Race).

2. Shortly after finishing, the owner of Black Jack submitted a report to the Race Committee alleging that Wild Oats Xl's AIS "had not transmitted throughout" the Race.

3. Prior to the report, the Race Committee had "no knowledge of an issue" with Wild Oats Xl's AIS.

4. As a result of receiving the report, the RaceCommittee conducted an investigation into AIS tracking records in respect of Wild Oats Xl. The Race Committee obtained evidence from its owninvestigation that Wild Oats Xl may have breached Sl 11.4 and therefore submitted the protest."

Curious about # 3

Why does the race committee require AIS if they aren't tracking the boats anyway?

 
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sledracr

Super Anarchist
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 Could not still any yacht which is about to finish log a protest? Maybe the second line honours boat should convince someone......;-)
I suspect that as soon as WOXI crossed the line, the requirement to transmit ended and that's when the time-limit started for filing a protest.

In other words, once they finished they were no longer infringing, and since you have to inform "immediately" and file within a certain time of the infringement... that window is closed.

 

jack_sparrow

Super Anarchist
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I would recommend the following be added to next year's S.I's.[SIZE=10pt]"RC should make it clear it is either (a) obligation of competitors to file formal protest of boats they allege didn't broadcast AIS, or (b) RC reserves the right to penalize boats it determined did not broadcast AIS and state, if possible, penalty for not broadcasting. [which I believe would act as a deterrent.][/SIZE]
Mate that is great but you are missing the woods for the trees. The sport is a self policing one. It is not failing because of rules. It is failing because as each year goes by no one gives a fuck about the rules. That example is being set from the top end down. No better example has been set is with this race and for two years in a row by one team. That is a fact.

How long do we let this shit continue no matter the boat race or country.is up to us. No one else is going to stan. up

 
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Cal20sailor

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If Oats would have RAF'd after learning of their mistake, that would have been sportsmanship defined.  The kind of act that I would remember to my grave.  I sure as shit won't remember they had LH in '18 in two years.  

Choose your legacy and they did not choose wisely.  

 

sunseeker

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Mate that is great but you are missing the woods for the trees. The sport is a self policing one. It is not failing because of rules. It is failing because as each year goes by no one gives a fuck about the rules. That example is being set from the top end down. No better example has been set is with this race and for two years in a row the one team. That is a fact.
I’d suggest that “traditionally, at the Corinthian level, the sport is self policing.”

Where the sport has gone wrong is in not having a more active police force for all pro racing, like in match racing and TP 52’s.

to try and think it possible to maintain the “Corinthian spirit” with a bunch of paid whores pulling ropes for rich owners” is like thinking the hooker is really a virgin.

 

jack_sparrow

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From Jack's post above,

"Facts Found: Facts on Validity

1. Black Jack and Wild Oats Xl both competed in the Rolex Sydney Hobart Yacht Race 2018 (the Race).

2. Shortly after finishing, the owner of Black Jack submitted a report to the Race Committee alleging that Wild Oats Xl's AIS "had not transmitted throughout" the Race.

3. Prior to the report, the Race Committee had "no knowledge of an issue" with Wild Oats Xl's AIS.

4. As a result of receiving the report, the RaceCommittee conducted an investigation into AIS tracking records in respect of Wild Oats Xl. The Race Committee obtained evidence from its owninvestigation that Wild Oats Xl may have breached Sl 11.4 and therefore submitted the protest."

Curious about # 3

Why does the race committee require AIS if they aren't tracking the boats anyway?
It is required for many reasons, predominantly safety under both race rules as well as overarching considerations for preventing or minimising life threatening incidents at sea. Any tactical advantage attached to that piece of equipment is immaterial. As for RC checking compliance, this is a self policing sport, not a game of football. Those abusing that self policing concept are fucking the sport for everybody.

 
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jack_sparrow

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If Oats would have RAF'd after learning of their mistake, that would have been sportsmanship defined.  The kind of act that I would remember to my grave.  I sure as shit won't remember they had LH in '18 in two years.  

Choose your legacy and they did not choose wisely.  
your back..and on the money

 

jack_sparrow

Super Anarchist
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I’d suggest that “traditionally, at the Corinthian level, the sport is self policing.”

Where the sport has gone wrong is in not having a more active police force for all pro racing, like in match racing and TP 52’s.

to try and think it possible to maintain the “Corinthian spirit” with a bunch of paid whores pulling ropes for rich owners” is like thinking the hooker is really a virgin.
Fuck this like pulling teeth. The concept in your mind is abuse of the rules is somehow restricted to pro sailors is nonsense. i'm a semi retired pro and I can assure you you are way off mark . You don't understand the sport is dieing from the bottom up. Junior sailors are copying their heros, some which are scumbags at all levels who are abusing a self policing sport, and one that can only ever be a self policing sport. It is not tennis. The concept of self policing and respect for other competitors is fast getting lost. Some pricks in this race have raised the flag about its final departure and laughing at our expense. They just happen to be the touchstone. Unless that concept is recovered and recovered quickly this sport is fucked.  

 

sunseeker

Super Anarchist
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Fuck this like pulling teeth. The concept in your mind is abuse of the rules is somehow restricted to pro sailors is nonsense. i'm a semi retired pro and I can assure you you are way off mark . You don't understand the sport is dieing from the bottom up. Junior sailors are copying their heros, some which are scumbags at all levels who are abusing a self policing sport, and one that can only ever be a self policing sport. It is not tennis. The concept of self policing and respect for other competitors is fast getting lost. Some pricks in this race have raised the flag about its final departure and laughing at our expense. They just happen to be the touchstone. Unless that concept is recovered and recovered quickly this sport is fucked.  
Actually we agree. A big part of the problem with juniors is they have paid coaches, who teach them to cheat, because they need their kids to win so they get a bigger payday elsewhere.  And they both look at this situation and think “yeah, I can pull that shit off too”.

The horse is really out of the barn. Not sure we are ever going to see a real sense of honor and integrity be at the forefront of the sport any more. Look at the continual messes of the AC and Volvo. 

The good old days really were the good old days. Now, it’s just every whore for themselves.

 
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random

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So what do you propose?  The PC has made a decision.
That the protest was invalid.

WTF is it when posters like you refuse to admit that they cheated and got away with it?

I call it social media whitewashing.  This incident will not be forgotten nor should it.  It should and will live on as an example to all sailors of what we do not want in the sport.

 

Cal20sailor

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That the protest was invalid.

WTF is it when posters like you refuse to admit that they cheated and got away with it?

I call it social media whitewashing.  This incident will not be forgotten nor should it.  It should and will live on as an example to all sailors of what we do not want in the sport.
WTF is it when posters like you cannot read!  They did cheat (IMHO) and should have been chucked. 

I call it senility.  

 
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Kenny Dumas

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There will always be those who either don't play by, or don't understand, the rules.

If, and it is an  "IF", WOXI was not transmitting AND they knew it then Basic Principles in the RRS states they should retire. But it is an IF! No accusations.

If, and this time I don't think it is an IF, Blackjack thought WOXI wasn't transmitting then they should have protested.

We are a self policing sport and when I run rules seminars I always make two points right at the beginning.

1. You should use the rules to the absolute limit -and that includes all relevant rules, the RRS, the SI's any class rules or national prescriptions etc (that's what they are there for) BUT you can only do that if you know the rules or you may overstep the mark. I would expect anyone on the race course to have rules knowledge. Could you imagine playing chess if you didn't know how to move the knight?

2. If you think someone has overstepped that mark then you SHOULD protest otherwise the self policing concept falls apart. At the very least if their infraction is through ignorance they will know the next time. 

The protest procedure has two functions in my view, firstly to penalise the deliberate rule breakers and secondly to educate those sailors who don't know the rules sufficiently.

The other thing that needs to happen is for the media, social media and anti social media to change their mindset and stop calling a protestor the bad boy. Talk of a race win through a protest being "hollow" is WRONG. However a race win through not following the rules most certainly is a hollow victory. Again - no accusations.

As Dark Horse stated "You don't win a race etc etc" - Elvstrom would be turning  in his grave.

SS
Pretty strong justification for any boat still under the time limit to file

 

jack_sparrow

Super Anarchist
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The horse is really out of the barn. Not sure we are ever going to see a real sense of honor and integrity be at the forefront of the sport any more. Look at the continual messes of the AC and Volvo

The good old days really were the good old days. Now, it’s just every whore for themselves
The horse may be out of the barn but it is still in the paddock. It is time to to start shooting the rogue horses before they get over the fence. The AC I have little interest in and only know a few first hand. I don't know what instances you refer to in the VOR, but i can assure you it contains for the most part people with the highest integrity in this sport. 

 
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