2018 Rolex Sydney Hobart Yacht Race: The Race Committee has lodged a protest against Wild Oats XI

trt131

Super Anarchist
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Wrong.

Every competitor has 6 hours from finishing as per sailing instruction 27.3.
But the protest would likely be invalid as they have to inform the protested boat as soon as they knew there was an issue.  You cant come ashore have a discussion with other people and then lodge a protest (I guess you can but it would be invalid)

 

random

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But the protest would likely be invalid as they have to inform the protested boat as soon as they knew there was an issue.  You cant come ashore have a discussion with other people and then lodge a protest (I guess you can but it would be invalid)
So how's that rule book check going on 69.2?

 

shanghaisailor

Super Anarchist
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Shanghai, China
I’d suggest that “traditionally, at the Corinthian level, the sport is self policing.”

Where the sport has gone wrong is in not having a more active police force for all pro racing, like in match racing and TP 52’s.

to try and think it possible to maintain the “Corinthian spirit” with a bunch of paid whores pulling ropes for rich owners” is like thinking the hooker is really a virgin.
You do have a point sunseeker and in actual fact more and more regattas have officials on the water..

Trouble is most events use judges and not umpires and actually call it "On the Water Judging".

And here I should mention a "conflict of interest";-). I a an aspiring umpire but with only around 700 races under my belt so far. 

I say trouble with judges not because I would doubt their rules knowledge but because in most cases their skill set is different.

Their knowledge of procedure (validity and all that) is right up there but they normally have the luxury of being able to take their time to reach a decision. As an umpire, you have seconds - typically 3-5 of them - to make a call. Add to that the boat handling ability and positioning to be in the right place at the right time to view potential incidents and flags.

Add to that, certainly out our way some of them wouldn't recognise an ooch or a rocket if it bit them in the ass having never been sailors themselves.

It is sad to even be writing this as someone who grew up in a sport where I witnessed someone retiring because they broke a rule but were unseen by other competitors (yes I am that old) but that appears to be the world we live in.

Having said that most of the calls we make on the water are because people DO know the rules and ARE playing fairly. It is rather because the competition is so intense and because they are pushing the limit more that they are slipping over the limit and believe they are right.

Perhaps more "Go-Pro" type devices might help, not because they DO catch the action but because they MIGHT catch the action but many PCs are loath to allow their evidence so I am unsure on that. Or perhaps PCs need to move with the times?

One thing I am certain of, and that is if we don't address the situation it will only become worse. Do examples need to be made of? Probably!

 

trt131

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Random, you suggested joining some to protest under RRS 69.  Again you cannot lodge a protest for that rule.  The protest committee are the only ones that can decide to have a hearing.  It is pointless carrying on with you as you are just too stupid to understand.  I love the way LB puts you down.

 

random

Super Anarchist
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Random, you suggested joining some to protest under RRS 69.  Again you cannot lodge a protest for that rule.  The protest committee are the only ones that can decide to have a hearing.  It is pointless carrying on with you as you are just too stupid to understand.  I love the way LB puts you down.
Weasel words, all you got?

You read 69.2 and it is so clear that even a fuckwit like you could understand it.  No protest required.  Just have to provide the PC with eveidence that the sport has been bought into disrepute and they do the rest.

But you got that i''m sure, you are just playing fucking dumb, not that you have to try hard.

 

trt131

Super Anarchist
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321
Weasel words, all you got?

You read 69.2 and it is so clear that even a fuckwit like you could understand it.  No protest required.  Just have to provide the PC with eveidence that the sport has been bought into disrepute and they do the rest.

But you got that i''m sure, you are just playing fucking dumb, not that you have to try hard.
Instead of spouting on this forum why dont you do just that.  Come back later and report the outcome.

 
All of the above is immaterial as they were not even eligible to start due to non-compliance with the clause in the SI's that required all competitors to have a functioning AIS that both received and transmitted.

End of story!~

 

sunseeker

Super Anarchist
3,584
547
You do have a point sunseeker and in actual fact more and more regattas have officials on the water..

Trouble is most events use judges and not umpires and actually call it "On the Water Judging".

And here I should mention a "conflict of interest";-). I a an aspiring umpire but with only around 700 races under my belt so far. 

I say trouble with judges not because I would doubt their rules knowledge but because in most cases their skill set is different.

Their knowledge of procedure (validity and all that) is right up there but they normally have the luxury of being able to take their time to reach a decision. As an umpire, you have seconds - typically 3-5 of them - to make a call. Add to that the boat handling ability and positioning to be in the right place at the right time to view potential incidents and flags.

Add to that, certainly out our way some of them wouldn't recognise an ooch or a rocket if it bit them in the ass having never been sailors themselves.

It is sad to even be writing this as someone who grew up in a sport where I witnessed someone retiring because they broke a rule but were unseen by other competitors (yes I am that old) but that appears to be the world we live in.

Having said that most of the calls we make on the water are because people DO know the rules and ARE playing fairly. It is rather because the competition is so intense and because they are pushing the limit more that they are slipping over the limit and believe they are right.

Perhaps more "Go-Pro" type devices might help, not because they DO catch the action but because they MIGHT catch the action but many PCs are loath to allow their evidence so I am unsure on that. Or perhaps PCs need to move with the times?

One thing I am certain of, and that is if we don't address the situation it will only become worse. Do examples need to be made of? Probably!
A big part of the problem is that the “protest committee” of old has morphed into a lot of things it probably has no place being involved in.  The rules don’t deal well enough with technology, employment or maritime law, and yet the “protest committee” is God, or at least a lot of them act that way.

things need to really be broken down into actual racing issue, the fundamental rules, then separately there needs to be technical experts handling things like whether or not this AIS was actually broken, and all sorts of other things. To have this catch all of a protest committee where people are certified but often haven’t sailed in years, it just makes the sport a lot less fun. 

And pros are going to cheat until they get caught and penalized. The whole issue of financial penalties needs to be addressed too, that’s the only thing that’s going to stop this crap, though Oatley might not care about about a $100,000 fine. 

 

random

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Instead of spouting on this forum why dont you do just that.  Come back later and report the outcome.
Do I take that as conceding to the point?  That I successfully skooled you on the RRS?  Hahshahhaaaaa.

I might just do that.  All the evidence is here, including people claiming that the sport has been tarnished, including the AIS logs.  Great idea tr!

 

trt131

Super Anarchist
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Do I take that as conceding to the point?  That I successfully skooled you on the RRS?  Hahshahhaaaaa.

I might just do that.  All the evidence is here, including people claiming that the sport has been tarnished, including the AIS logs.  Great idea tr!
Random, I was pointing out the word PROTEST and the fact that a competitor cannot PROTEST under that rule, but I am sure you understood that but as usual you were being obtuse for the sake of an argument.

 

random

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The rules don’t deal well enough with technology, employment or maritime law, and yet the “protest committee” is God, or at least a lot of them act that way.
Before you get anymore off the track .... Read the fucking rules!   You have no excuse not to understand them, but you do not.

3.3
Acceptance of the rules includes agreement

  1. to be governed by the rules;
  2. to accept the penalties imposed and other action taken under the rules, subject to the appeal and review procedures provided in them, as the final determination of any matter arising under the rules;
  3. with respect to any such determination, not to resort to any court of law or tribunal not provided for in the rules; and
  4. by each competitor and boat owner to ensure that their support persons are aware of the rules.

Edit: There is no requirement for you or anyone else to agree with the Rules.  If you do not, do not sign on to the race, if you do then in effect it is a legally binding contract between you and the Organising Authority.  It is the law.
 
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If there is a requirement in the sailing instructions, and such requirement is not met, surely it shouldn't matter whether it was on purpose or not? If one doesn't honor a mark and finishes and says "oops, I didn't realize that was a mark", not knowing doesn't absolve them. 

Whether or not the AIS is a necessary safety feature, whether or not WOXI shut it off on purpose, or it got damaged, or if Black Jack had protested correctly shouldn't matter.

The bigger problem seems to be that there is a rule in the sailing instructions that is very clear, and that was broken. Subsequently the Race Committee finds a technicality so they (likely) don't even discuss the issue.  What if a boat had raced without the required number of life jackets, or life rafts on board, and were found out afterwards? One would think that Black Jack, or any competitor for that matter- wouldn't have to protest properly for that to be dealt with...

It's troubling that a rule was broken and nothing was done about it. I would have thought that the AIS requirement would have been considered a safety item, and as such that the RC would have been able to deal with any (not just WOXI) yachts that infringed the requirement to have it transmitting for the duration of the race. 

If it's not that important, which their attitude seems to convey, then perhaps they will change the rule for subsequent years to not require it to be on? Whats the likelihood of that happening? 

 

random

Super Anarchist
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365
And about the rest of the crew not knowing

3.3
Acceptance of the rules includes agreement

  1. to be governed by the rules;
  2. to accept the penalties imposed and other action taken under the rules, subject to the appeal and review procedures provided in them, as the final determination of any matter arising under the rules;
  3. with respect to any such determination, not to resort to any court of law or tribunal not provided for in the rules; and
  4. by each competitor and boat owner to ensure that their support persons are aware of the rules.
 

bayboy

Member
280
24
Best part its been dealt with and a few have their knickers in a knot about the ruling, Sandy Oatley promises to give you a reach around next year, Wild Oats still won line honors and Alive Overall end of story.

 

savoir

Super Anarchist
4,914
201
I wonder if the ais will be on for the trip back to Sydney. ..


Fair question.

WO has left Hobart and at this very minute is almost at Tasman Island. The AIS information displayed by Marinetraffic shows that the unit appears to be working perfectly.

Damn those Tasmanian electricians are good.

 

Maw

Member
90
16
If you implement something, you must be able to measure/monitor it, or it will die.

The measure/monitor for AIS transmission compliance can only consistently be done on the water. 

So this means us. We're a self policing sport, so all good. 

But stop right there. This. means . us. I think we need to get our heads in the game that it really is us. By not protesting, the default position for nearly everyone who sails, we're blowing off the responsibility of self policing. 

No regulation and enforcement? Then the concept of racing under rules will die. 

Looking forward regards monitoring AIS, I'm sitting here thinking:

  • How the fuck do I determine when a boat has broken the rule? (Without a WoXI full length of race instance) Is the decision threshold when it's Intermittent? Or 10 mins? An hour? In total?  Should it be cumulatiive? 
  • How do I know without watching the tracker all the time? 
  • Will I wait for some other boat on the water to protest so I don't go to the room, or have to look bad?
  • Do we need to add some clarification of expectations to the meagre one line mandatory requirement in the SI's? 
  • What about distance? Will another boat 5nm away protest me for going silent when it's  because I''ve got a little mast?






















 
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