2018 Rolex Sydney Hobart Yacht Race: The Race Committee has lodged a protest against Wild Oats XI

Rain Man

Super Anarchist
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Wet coast.
I have no idea, and it doesn’t matter, if WOXI actually declared that they didn’t have AIS on during the race,, then the RO, PC and IJ still didn’t do their job.... It actually makes it worse for the reputation of the race itself.
There is a further possibility: they handed in the form saying they were compliant before they knew that the AIS transmitter had been off during the race.  

 
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paps49

Super Anarchist
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Adelaide Australia
"I wonder why the CYCA decided to mandate using AIS transmitters?"

Gee, I dunno..... maybe to stop peeps getting run over by tankers with no one on the bridge at night? Just guessercising from the boon docks, I figured you blokes in the big smoke new stuff.

 

animeproblem

Super Anarchist
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Seattle
hoppy said:
In an emergency, it's the EPIRB, VHF DSC , HF DSC and HF DSC that is used. AIS is only for collision avoidance (not the only way to avoid collisions) and allowing your competitors snoop on you. For MOB you only need an AIS receiver.

For avoiding collisions with shipping, an AIS transmitter is not useful for modern large racers. Naviguesses I believe spend a lot of time below at their computer and will be watching for shipping and will plot courses accordingly. The transmitter is more useful for slow moving cruisers and solo racers giving the shipping a chance to change course in advance.

I wonder why the CYCA decided to mandate using AIS transmitters? 
Yeah I will have to grant all that, & admit it was somewhat of a dick post, however earlier this evening I went upstairs to talk to a neighbor lady who visits my wife once a week (to be frank sh'e actually proselyting but I let it slide, because tolerance & all that) like myself she is a non sailor but when I explained this situation to her she was as outraged as I & some on this thread are, I guess the point here is depending on how one's filter is set, this is bullshit.

Don Halvorson

And yes it pisses me off to no end that I have to share 1st names with POTUS. 

 

paps49

Super Anarchist
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Adelaide Australia
hoppy said:
Thanks, below explains BJ's action

They could not be critical of the CYCA for the inclusion of the AIS rule and did not want to win because of a rule they are against. So moaning about WOIX was their best option to bring up the topic and get the rule fixed.
Hoppy, step away from the keyboard.

So now you are suggesting BJ was complaining about the inclusion of AIS in the SI's???

 

Francis Vaughan

Super Anarchist
hoppy said:
So how does work if there is no one on the bridge??? Please please explain!!!!! LOL
No-one on the bridge is basically a hanging offense. Any master/captain with his ship such would never work again, once he got out of the pokey. 

This doesn't mean AIS is a foolproof way of not being run over by a some immense vessel, people forget how constrained they are in ability to navigate, especially close to shore. So you can't be stupid. But in open ocean, letting ships have some idea you are around might avoid a sad little newspaper notice a few weeks after you fail to return home.

 
hoppy said:
In an emergency, it's the EPIRB, VHF DSC , HF DSC and HF DSC that is used. AIS is only for collision avoidance (not the only way to avoid collisions) and allowing your competitors snoop on you. For MOB you only need an AIS receiver.

For avoiding collisions with shipping, an AIS transmitter is not useful for modern large racers. Naviguesses I believe spend a lot of time below at their computer and will be watching for shipping and will plot courses accordingly. The transmitter is more useful for slow moving cruisers and solo racers giving the shipping a chance to change course in advance.

I wonder why the CYCA decided to mandate using AIS transmitters? 
On what technical basis did you form that opinion?

 

paps49

Super Anarchist
8,943
315
Adelaide Australia
No-one on the bridge is basically a hanging offense. Any master/captain with his ship such would never work again, once he got out of the pokey. 

This doesn't mean AIS is a foolproof way of not being run over by a some immense vessel, people forget how constrained they are in ability to navigate, especially close to shore. So you can't be stupid. But in open ocean, letting ships have some idea you are around might avoid a sad little newspaper notice a few weeks after you fail to return home.
Hopefully these days you are correct Francis. Crossing the North Pacific in 1980, pre GPS we hailed every commercial vessel we had visuals on via CH 16 for a time and position check (I was a nervous newby navigator) about 20% were non responsive.

 
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trt131

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There is a further possibility: they handed in the form saying they were compliant before they knew that the AIS transmitter had been off during the race.  
That is very likely as the form is done electronically and is usually completed by the nav within a couple of minutes of crossing the finish line.

 
Ok, so I've bit my tongue for the past couple of days but there is so much ignorant crap flying around that I can't stand it for a second longer.

The RRS run over the four year cycle of the Olympic Games and the Special Regs attached to the back of them comes into force from July so that you don't have a change to the Special Regs half way through the sailing season in Australia.

The Special Regs that came into force in July 2013 were reviewed in late 2011. A decision was made to replace an imperfect piece of equipment being a radar reflector with a far superior piece of technology called an AIS. The fitting of AIS was mandated for Cat 1 Races from 2015 to allow a phase in period and recommended for Cat 2 races.

Prior to 2015, if you wanted to track your competitors, who all had mandated radar reflectors, the purpose of which was to make them more visible to commercial shipping, you could fit a radar to your racing yacht, as did most of the Whitbread 60's. With some knowledge of relative motion and a plotting sheet you could determine the course and speed of your competitors or any other traffic by plotting them.

AIS is part of the Global Maritime Distress and Safety System and was considered a worthwhile addition to yachts racing in Cat 1 and Cat 2 races. I notice that in the Sydney to Hobart Notices to Competitors that AIS Man Overboard devices are being promoted. Again, another worthwhile piece of safety equipment because a yacht cannot receive a PLB signal without advice from a shoreside receiver. Clearly you cannot track a MOB if your AIS is switched off!

The side effect that AIS could be used as a tactical tool was discussed and discounted due to the far greater benefits for SOLAS and collision avoidance with commercial traffic. Yachts are horrendously poor radar targets.

To say that AIS is only a requirement this year is wrong, it has been in force for the last three editions of the Sydney to Hobart. the Special Regs only require it to be operational, the S.I's require it to be functioning at all times. I would expect that whoever did the Safety Audit of WOXI would have determined that the equipment was functioning correctly.

BTW VHF DSC and MF/HF DSC were also added to the Special Regs in that same review.

 
hoppy said:
Believe it or not, it takes 2 boats to have a collision. However it only takes the watch on one of those two boats to avoid the collision, assuming they spot the possibility in sufficient time.

If you work on the assumption that the race boat has a navigator regularly monitoring their navigation tools, which will include  receiving AIS prositions from commercial shipping and other vessels that legally must transmit. Then the race boat will be aware of the ship 20-60 nm out. If the racer is moving, they can adjust their course if necessary, turn on their AIS TX to make sure the ship sees them or make a radio call. 
You said that an AIS is not useful for collision avoidance, that is incorrect.

 

Sidecar

…………………………
3,262
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Tasmania
That is very likely as the form is done electronically and is usually completed by the nav within a couple of minutes of crossing the finish line.
In which case, my post #942 applies. Ignorance or inadvertentness does not absolve responsibility.

 
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trt131

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frant said:
Further if you sign a declaration then it must be correct or did an amended declaration get submitted with a mea culpa when the error was discovered?
I dont know the answer to that and neither do you.

 

Joakim

Super Anarchist
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Finland
But the protest would likely be invalid as they have to inform the protested boat as soon as they knew there was an issue.  You cant come ashore have a discussion with other people and then lodge a protest (I guess you can but it would be invalid)
What would actually be required for a protest to be valid in a case where a boat finishing days after WOXI files a protest? Certainly they have no allowed means to inform WOXI until they are at the harbour and even then it may take some time to reach the crew.

What about the protest flag? Is this something they must find out while still racing and thus need to have a protest flag up before finishing? I don't think so. Flag is required only for "an

incident
in the racing area that she
wa
s involved in or s
aw". It is not even required when protesting about not sailing the course.



Would it even be possible to make a valid protest after seeing the protest by RC in the harbour and then filing an own protest based on that within the six hours from finishing?

 

Sidecar

…………………………
3,262
1,652
Tasmania
I dont know the answer to that and neither do you.
Irrelevant.... If WOXI were smart and they did declare no AIS, even by amendment,  that would largely absolve themselves and prove that the RO etc. didn’t do their job.

If they amended their declaration now to say no AIS, what do you think the outcome should be?

 
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Trickypig

Super Anarchist
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Australia
The only collisions I’ve heard of in a Hobart race is at the start and AIS wouldn’t have helped.

and during the race there are more crew on deck than a super tanker. Collision avoidance not a major problem really 

 


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