2018 Rolex Sydney Hobart Yacht Race: The Race Committee has lodged a protest against Wild Oats XI

random

Super Anarchist
6,057
365
OKAY. The victory of WOXI is tainted with a hint of cheating, the attitude of Black Jack is incomprehensible and that of the jury is shameful. But it seems to me that someone is forgotten in that story: Comanche. Because, if a boat has been fucked in this story, it's Comanche. If I have understood the race, Comanche was leading by 3 NM, she fell in a hole with no wind and ended up with 3NM late. But why did they not cover their opponent? Did they make a tactical error or did they not know where WOXI was? If so, why did they not put a protest? The fact they did not is in favour of WOXI, don't you think so?



 
So you joined in 2009, your post count says 10, but your profile only has two posts.

How the fuck does that work?

 

random

Super Anarchist
6,057
365
I have races against boats who did not carry all of the required equipment, and who had Spinnakers of questionable size and number appear during races, and never did anything about it. For
If you did not protest then you are the problem.

 

staysail

Super Anarchist
2,131
334
It gave no disadvantage to anyone whatsoever.
Of course it disadvantaged everyone who played by the rules and left their AIS transmitting! If you really think having AIS info of your opponents whilst hiding your own is no advantage you can't have done much racing since it was invented!

If it was a genuine mistake and it was all about what a jolly good fun race it was (as you seem to think) Woxi could and should have retired after the finish and just enjoyed being first over the line. Picking up the first prize when you know you have not won it is what I find so mind boggling.

 

Black Sox

Super Anarchist
3,113
1,167
Dublin, Ireland
Sad day and wrong outcome in my view. WOXI crew should be embarrassed - there is no honor in this outcome. 


Mark Richards in the interview says that it was a gruelling race, 2 days with no sleep..

If he sticks around in Hobart long enough maybe he could buy the guys of Gun Runnner a few beers, and find out what gruelling really is....


Paul Elvstrom said it all.

View attachment 294269
These three are it for me.

(Apart from the misplaced apostrophe in the last one.)

 

Crazy Cat

New member
27
3
Of course it disadvantaged everyone who played by the rules and left their AIS transmitting! If you really think having AIS info of your opponents whilst hiding your own is no advantage you can't have done much racing since it was invented!

If it was a genuine mistake and it was all about what a jolly good fun race it was (as you seem to think) Woxi could and should have retired after the finish and just enjoyed being first over the line. Picking up the first prize when you know you have not won it is what I find so mind boggling.
My point (partially) was that every boat has access to the Yellowbrick data which provides more info than rolling your mouse over the boats AIS icon. So isn’t it a bit like missing the weather on the radio sked but still having access to the  BOM weather on your laptop?

 

Rail Meat

Super Anarchist
7,193
175
Mystic, CT
My point (partially) was that every boat has access to the Yellowbrick data which provides more info than rolling your mouse over the boats AIS icon. So isn’t it a bit like missing the weather on the radio sked but still having access to the  BOM weather on your laptop?
Not really.  Yellow Brick tracking is a better source than no source, but three factors make it less powerful than using AIS. 

  1. First, many races don't show heading or even speed on their tracker page.  The data is there, its up to the race to display it.  AIS always shows it
  2. Yellow Brick is very, very, very rarely real time.  Their pricing model is based on a per transmission model, and as a result the refresh rate is stretched out to economize.  I don't know what it was for SH, but it felt like 5 or 10 minutes. Lots of decisions can be made in those windows between transmissions where if I was looking at AIS there would be the option to react immediately to a competitors actions.
  3. Pulling down position data via your sat phone is expensive.  If you try to look at the race tracker on the race web site, it is ghastly expensive.  Many races offer a download, either through Expedition or through an FTP site.  But the update of the data on those downloads will never be more frequent than what you see on the race website, and often can be less frequent.  And will still cost money to do.  Its useful simply because it will give you fleet information for boats out of AIS range, but still not as good as having a target up on AIS.

 Mind you, I personally don't like the outcome of having AIS data available since it tends to turn racing into an exercise of "follow the leader and wait for mistakes".  Just look at the Volvo race or the start of the RdR for examples.  But if it is going to be mandated then I am sure as shit going to use the data to make decisions.  And if one boat is not transmitting then the other boats are disadvantaged.

 

staysail

Super Anarchist
2,131
334
My point (partially) was that every boat has access to the Yellowbrick data which provides more info than rolling your mouse over the boats AIS icon. So isn’t it a bit like missing the weather on the radio sked but still having access to the  BOM weather on your laptop?
I don't know what sort of kit you are using with your AIS but mine gives me a continuous, almost real time, plot of the other boats tracks on my nav pc screen from which I can see the instantaneous COG, SOG, and the historic tracks plotted out, for all boats within a few miles of me. Courses accurate to one degree and speeds to a small fraction of a knot. Enables me to see if they have better (or worse) wind speed, wind angle, boat speed etc. where they are compared with what I have at my location, and I can see how the wind has been shifting where they all are, and it even helps me guess what the wind will do where I am in the near future. Pretty handy data to have, and even more beneficial for me, and a big disadvantage for them, when I can switch off my transmit switch and prevent them from seeing all the same data from me at my location. And I don't even need an internet connection. Don't quite see how I could get equivalent data from the other boats yellowbrick transmissions.

 
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Crazy Cat

New member
27
3
Not really.  Yellow Brick tracking is a better source than no source, but three factors make it less powerful than using AIS. 

  1. First, many races don't show heading or even speed on their tracker page.  The data is there, its up to the race to display it.  AIS always shows it
  2. Yellow Brick is very, very, very rarely real time.  Their pricing model is based on a per transmission model, and as a result the refresh rate is stretched out to economize.  I don't know what it was for SH, but it felt like 5 or 10 minutes. Lots of decisions can be made in those windows between transmissions where if I was looking at AIS there would be the option to react immediately to a competitors actions.
  3. Pulling down position data via your sat phone is expensive.  If you try to look at the race tracker on the race web site, it is ghastly expensive.  Many races offer a download, either through Expedition or through an FTP site.  But the update of the data on those downloads will never be more frequent than what you see on the race website, and often can be less frequent.  And will still cost money to do.  Its useful simply because it will give you fleet information for boats out of AIS range, but still not as good as having a target up on AIS.

 Mind you, I personally don't like the outcome of having AIS data available since it tends to turn racing into an exercise of "follow the leader and wait for mistakes".  Just look at the Volvo race or the start of the RdR for examples.  But if it is going to be mandated then I am sure as shit going to use the data to make decisions.  And if one boat is not transmitting then the other boats are disadvantaged.
Your points RM:

1. Confining the discussion to this race only, the YB data shows SOG & COG over previous 1m, 5m& 10m intervals. 

2. Agree. 10m updates this race for data listed above. 

3. Not advocating using sat phone to look at CYCA tracker, that will cost a bomb. However for the data above (no graphics) which Expedition can then store and present as tracks. 

Your summary - spot on. Last few years in our fleets many of the leaders have turned off their transmitters (not mandatory) simply because the bunnies were following them and cashing in on their hard fought gains and risks. 

 

Joakim

Super Anarchist
1,468
102
Finland
It would be most unlikely for any of the smaller boats to be carrying internet capabilities beyond a weather service.

On top of that there would be no reason for any of them to monitor the AIS transmission of any of the maxis.

Now don't you forget to keep feeding those reindeer. A visit to Rovaniemi is on my bucket list and I also want to buy a Marrtiini knife while I'm there. Some things must be earned..
They most likely have several mobile phones with internet capabilities near stat and finish. Maybe even some other part of the race. Why wouldn't they be interested in the results, protests and what is written about the race? They may even look how far ahead the maxis are after the start and wonder why WOXI is not shown.

I live about 1000 km south from Rovaniemi. No reindeers around here. AFAIK they don't need to be fed, they find their food (lichen) from nature. Haven't used the Marttiini knives I have for ages. Sorry to disappoint you.

 

Cal20sailor

Super Anarchist
12,835
3,334
Detroit
I have races against boats who did not carry all of the required equipment, and who had Spinnakers of questionable size and number appear during races, and never did anything about it. For some reason, only boats known for their strict adherence to the rules ever seemed to be audited post race . . . 

Given this steaming turd of an outcome, what is the proper process for ensuring a boat you suspect does not comply is investigated? Is it a protest? What about a boat who has never taken the required water and fuel, same steps?
I raced in a class where crew weight was paramount.  On the last day of the regatta, one of the boats had 2 or 3 more bodies than the rest of us.  The boat Captain on one of the competitors met them at the dock with a scale...they RAF'd.  

 

Alcatraz5768

Super Anarchist
There are a lot of people on here that are fully butt hurt over this, however none of the other competitors obviously gave a shit as they didn't protest. If they don't care about it, which they obviously don't, why are all of you so angry.

If you want to see WOXI bought to justice, enter your boat next year and protest whatever dastardly thing they do next race. 

Not a WOXI fanboy, actually backing BJ, but BJ didn't care enough about the breech of rules to lodge a protest, so why should I? 

 

Cal20sailor

Super Anarchist
12,835
3,334
Detroit
There are a lot of people on here that are fully butt hurt over this, however none of the other competitors obviously gave a shit as they didn't protest. If they don't care about it, which they obviously don't, why are all of you so angry.

If you want to see WOXI bought to justice, enter your boat next year and protest whatever dastardly thing they do next race. 

Not a WOXI fanboy, actually backing BJ, but BJ didn't care enough about the breech of rules to lodge a protest, so why should I? 
I believe in living by the rules.  Not losing sleep over this one but someone should.  

 




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