2018 Rolex Sydney Hobart Yacht Race: The Race Committee has lodged a protest against Wild Oats XI

random

Super Anarchist
6,057
365
I'm sure it's a great gig but sadly they have no presence in seppo land.

So tell me, what's the average value of the companies your study has? Not their owners net worth, the companies net worth.
I'm sure it's a great gig but sadly they have no presence in seppo land.

So tell me, what's the average value of the companies your study has? Not their owners net worth, the companies net worth.

https://sites.tcs.com/social-business-study/social-media-spending-staff/

So are you prosecuting the argument that the Oatley group of companies do not invest in responding to social media?


 

random

Super Anarchist
6,057
365
Maybe someone should have stepped up and protested them.
Definitely.  But true sportsman should have retired.




BASIC PRINCIPLES








SPORTSMANSHIP AND THE RULES
Competitors in the sport of sailing are governed by a body of rules that they are expected to follow and enforce. A fundamental principle of sportsmanship is that when competitors break a rule they will promptly take a penalty, which may be to retire."
 








"2 FAIR SAILING



A boat and her owner shall compete in compliance with recognized principles of sportsmanship and fair play. A boat may be penalized under this rule only if it is clearly established that these principles have been violated. The penalty shall be either disqualification or disqualification that is not excludable."



 

bayboy

Member
292
27
They will review the way the SI has been written and we all move on to the 2019 Sydney to Hobart, the decision has been made and if you still dont like it enter the Launceston to Hobart, thats what it all boils down too. complain all you like the decision wont change.

 

fish

Member
60
1
Ireland
None of which is relevant.  Rules say you must transmit.  If you don't you have not abided by the rules. 

To paraphrase.. If in winning you become an Internet laughing stock... 

 

Trickypig

Super Anarchist
4,399
124
Australia
Thats messing the waters Tricky.
Ok so what I believe is most concerning about this is not necessarily the safety compliance issue but the tactical advantage that may have been sort by WOXI in turning their AIS off. 

Watching a competitor find a hole and sailing around them is a wonderful new tactical input on a large scale that offshore racing navigators haven’t had before. Most race boats would decline having the drag and weight of radome and using a radar target to do calcs would be pretty furry at best)

If WOXI sort a competitive advantage through breaking rules ( and I’m not saying they did) then it’s cheating. Non compliance with a piece of safety equipment we didn’t know we needed in the last 60 odd years doesn’t bother me so much.

They sailed a bloody good race but Id hate to think the navigator turned the transmit off whilst staring at his competitors numbers.

 

Trickypig

Super Anarchist
4,399
124
Australia
hoppy said:
I'm sure the normal procedure for all of the serious racers is for someone to turn off a the AIS TX before the start of every race. That person possibly did it without being aware of or remembering the new SI. 
Could be the case....

Gross oversight if so.

edit: Someone upthread said it went off under Bradleys head where presumably they were hoisting the main. I agree... it all sounds like procedure.

However the navigator must have thought the rest of the fleet in entirety  were complete bunnies for leaving theirs on though.

 
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olaf hart

Super Anarchist
hoppy said:
I'm sure the normal procedure for all of the serious racers is for someone to turn off a the AIS TX before the start of every race. That person possibly did it without being aware of or remembering the new SI. 
Maybe it’s on an old prestart checklist and someone forgot to cross it off.

I generally favour chaos over conspiracy...

 
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random

Super Anarchist
6,057
365
hoppy said:
I understand them.

I understand that the CYCA made a dumbass decision to include mandatory transmission in the SI's

I understand that WOIX was no transmitting during the race (don't care about the reason)

I understand that BJ bitched and moaned about it in the media

I understand that BJ did not protest

I understand that the CYCA lodged the protest against WOIX

I understand that the IJ dismissed the protest because of "procedural reasons"

I understand that no other boat lodged a protest.

I understand that this is case closed and time to move on.

I understand that you are a dog with a bone and will not let go because you are a troll
You do not understand that this is now part of the zeitgeist.

It will never go away.   It is immortal and will be talked about for decades.  It is sailing history.

Only Oatley fanboys and trolls want it to be forgotten ... yesterday.

Social media campaigns are in damage control, obviously.

 

Moonduster

Super Anarchist
4,823
231
Hoppy - here's what you meant to have said, no?

I understand them.

I understand that the CYCA made a dumbass decision chose to include mandatory transmission in the SI's

I understand that WOIX was not transmitting during the race (don't care about the reason is immaterial)

I understand that BJ bitched and moaned expressed their dismay about it in the media

I understand that BJ did not protest

I understand that the CYCA lodged the protest against WOIX

I understand that the IJ dismissed the protest because of "procedural reasons"

I understand that no other boat lodged a protest.

I understand that this is case closed and time to move on.

I understand that you are a dog with a bone and will not let go because you are a troll

I understand that a competitor who learns that they were not in compliance with the rules should RAF

I understand that many, many sailors believe that by not being rule-compliant and not choosing to RAF casts our sport in a poor light

I personally believe that those at the forefront of our sport ought to lead by example and am dismayed that that has not (yet) happened in this instance



 



 
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axolotl

Super Anarchist
1,656
184
San Diego
Wow, a lot of conjecture here concerning this incident.  Here's what I "think" happened, just an opinion, nothing more:

  • WOXI has had a Class B AIS system aboard at least since the AUS RRSs began requiring them for CAT 1 races (2013?).
  • The AUS RRSs  do not require the device be on and transmitting during a race, just that it be in good working order.
  • Class B AISs transmit at a minimum a boat's SOG +- 0.1kn, COG +- 0.1 degree & position to GPS accuracy, a few meters, every 2 to 10 seconds depending on boatspeed.  They are very reliable if fed enough electricity and attached to a competent antenna system. They transmit at 2 watts in order to limit range to about 10 miles with (tall) masthead antennas, in order to make most efficient use of the bandwidth available.  The range can be considerably more than 10 miles if shoreside repeater stations are within range.  There are AIS implementations which essentially are unlimited in range (S-AIS) but that's not the situation in the S2H.
  •  AIS propagation is better than that of radar, due to the longer wavelength, so it is possible to reach around bends and behind islands if the land masses are not too high. Radar COG & SOG of target calculations involve integration which involve your SOG & COG which introduces inaccuracies.  Radar's main advantage is that the target is an unwilling partner; it is not transmitting information to the receiver so cannot hide itself.  It's main disadvantage is it becomes more inaccurate the further away the target, unlike a target that is actually transmitting its position ever 5 +- seconds directly to you real time.
  • Every AIS I'm aware of has a transmit on icon/light, etc.,  and the capability to operate in receive only mode controlled by a manual switch.
  • Race trackers (YellowBrick, etc.) are satellite based have a MAX transmission rate of every 1 1/2 minutes but for race rentals it's generally throttled to every 30 minutes +- to guarantee battery life on a several day race.  Two key aspects of the technology is that: only position is transmitted so SOG, COG is derived by integration with earlier positions which is less accurate and becomes very inaccurate at low speeds with such low update rates, and and data is not transmitted real time to nearby vessels,  instead a vessel must have an internet link of some sort and view the race's tracker webpage, entailing additional delays.

So there's the  playing field concerning electronic observations of competitors during a race.  Given that:

  • Knowing nearby competitor's precise position, SOG  & COG at a +-5 second integrated update rate (when they're not within yelling distance) can be immensely valuable and easily obtained using AIS.
  •  If not required by the RRS/SIs you'd be a fool to transmit on AIS but wise to receive AIS info from nearby competitors who are transmitting.
  • The 2018 S2H SIs required a vessel's AIS to be transmitting 24/7 during the race, an indisputable fact.

WOXIs actions are understandable:

  • They didn't notice that for this year's race AIS must be on & transmitting 24/7.  Hard to imagine such rock stars would miss it, but they've been doing this race for years with AIS in working order and maybe just got in to their pre-race routine and shut off the transmitter. Not helpful was NOC #2 (copy below)  which states "it is recommended that their AIS be turned on",  not that "their AIS shall be turned on ", a curious recommendation, should the AIS be turned on and transmitting during the race.  I could have stumbled over that and assumed AIS on is not mandatory during the race.
  • BlackJack in a media interview pointed out that WOXI's AIS was off,   pointed out it put them at a disadvantage and stated they did not intend to protest.
  • A WOXI spokesman stated that "having the tracker on was not mandatory".  Obviously, if a YellowBrick tracker was supplied it must be turned on for the duration of the race, so he was recollecting the 2017 SIs which only referred to the AUS RRS of sailing which stated AIS must be onboard but not necessarily turned on (transmitting). 
  • He also stated "we could see each other during the race so no disadvantage for BlackJack."  Bullocks; they were at times 5+ miles apart so determining exact SOG & COG was impossible through binoculars.
  • Once the press informed all parties of the "AIS shall be on 24/7 during the race" SI WOXIs story turned into "we didn't know it wasn't transmitting, a camera guy fried it at the start", "fixed it when we got to the finishing line dock", an unlikely chain of events.
  • Then somehow the RC informed the PC of the situation which rightly  dismissed hearing the protest, no valid protest lodged by a competitor.

So what's the upshot?  WOXI's main competition pointed out WOXI's transgression, didn't protest at the earliest opportunity, announced they weren't going to protest upon finishing, case closed.  WOXI most probably turned off AIS transmissions because they missed the new 2018 SI rule about it, wise if they thought  it wasn't mandatory but dumb if they didn't read the SIs; anybody could have nailed them, but chose to decide it on the water.   Race over, WOXI got line honors. 

  • rolex.gif
 

random

Super Anarchist
6,057
365
Wow, a lot of conjecture here concerning this incident.  Here's what I "think" happened, just an opinion, nothing more:

  • WOXI has had a Class B AIS system aboard at least since the AUS RRSs began requiring them for CAT 1 races (2013?).
  • The AUS RRSs  do not require the device be on and transmitting during a race, just that it be in good working order.
  • Class B AISs transmit at a minimum a boat's SOG +- 0.1kn, COG +- 0.1 degree & position to GPS accuracy, a few meters, every 2 to 10 seconds depending on boatspeed.  They are very reliable if fed enough electricity and attached to a competent antenna system. They transmit at 2 watts in order to limit range to about 10 miles with (tall) masthead antennas, in order to make most efficient use of the bandwidth available.  The range can be considerably more than 10 miles if shoreside repeater stations are within range.  There are AIS implementations which essentially are unlimited in range (S-AIS) but that's not the situation in the S2H.
  •  AIS propagation is better than that of radar, due to the longer wavelength, so it is possible to reach around bends and behind islands if the land masses are not too high. Radar COG & SOG of target calculations involve integration which involve your SOG & COG which introduces inaccuracies.  Radar's main advantage is that the target is an unwilling partner; it is not transmitting information to the receiver so cannot hide itself.  It's main disadvantage is it becomes more inaccurate the further away the target, unlike a target that is actually transmitting its position ever 5 +- seconds directly to you real time.
  • Every AIS I'm aware of has a transmit on icon/light, etc.,  and the capability to operate in receive only mode controlled by a manual switch.
  • Race trackers (YellowBrick, etc.) are satellite based have a MAX transmission rate of every 1 1/2 minutes but for race rentals it's generally throttled to every 30 minutes +- to guarantee battery life on a several day race.  Two key aspects of the technology is that: only position is transmitted so SOG, COG is derived by integration with earlier positions which is less accurate and becomes very inaccurate at low speeds with such low update rates, and and data is not transmitted real time to nearby vessels,  instead a vessel must have an internet link of some sort and view the race's tracker webpage, entailing additional delays.

So there's the  playing field concerning electronic observations of competitors during a race.  Given that:

  • Knowing nearby competitor's precise position, SOG  & COG at a +-5 second integrated update rate (when they're not within yelling distance) can be immensely valuable and easily obtained using AIS.
  •  If not required by the RRS/SIs you'd be a fool to transmit on AIS but wise to receive AIS info from nearby competitors who are transmitting.
  • The 2018 S2H SIs required a vessel's AIS to be transmitting 24/7 during the race, an indisputable fact.

WOXIs actions are understandable:

  • They didn't notice that for this year's race AIS must be on & transmitting 24/7.  Hard to imagine such rock stars would miss it, but they've been doing this race for years with AIS in working order and maybe just got in to their pre-race routine and shut off the transmitter. Not helpful was NOC #2 (copy below)  which states "it is recommended that their AIS be turned on",  not that "their AIS shall be turned on ", a curious recommendation, should the AIS be turned on and transmitting during the race.  I could have stumbled over that and assumed AIS on is not mandatory during the race.
  • BlackJack in a media interview pointed out that WOXI's AIS was off,   pointed out it put them at a disadvantage and stated they did not intend to protest.
  • A WOXI spokesman stated that "having the tracker on was not mandatory".  Obviously, if a YellowBrick tracker was supplied it must be turned on for the duration of the race, so he was recollecting the 2017 SIs which only referred to the AUS RRS of sailing which stated AIS must be onboard but not necessarily turned on (transmitting). 
  • He also stated "we could see each other during the race so no disadvantage for BlackJack."  Bullocks; they were at times 5+ miles apart so determining exact SOG & COG was impossible through binoculars.
  • Once the press informed all parties of the "AIS shall be on 24/7 during the race" SI WOXIs story turned into "we didn't know it wasn't transmitting, a camera guy fried it at the start", "fixed it when we got to the finishing line dock", an unlikely chain of events.
  • Then somehow the RC informed the PC of the situation which rightly  dismissed hearing the protest, no valid protest lodged by a competitor.

So what's the upshot?  WOXI's main competition pointed out WOXI's transgression, didn't protest at the earliest opportunity, announced they weren't going to protest upon finishing, case closed.  WOXI most probably turned off AIS transmissions because they missed the new 2018 SI rule about it, wise if they thought  it wasn't mandatory but dumb if they didn't read the SIs; anybody could have nailed them, but chose to decide it on the water.   Race over, WOXI got line honors. 
Wow, so many words "Me thinks the lady doth protestuth too much"

  • WOXI did not comply with the SIs
  • WOXI got the silver on a technicality
  • WOXI failed to withdraw from the event after they learned that they were non-compliant as is required,  the most basic rule in sailing.




BASIC PRINCIPLES








SPORTSMANSHIP AND THE RULES
Competitors in the sport of sailing are governed by a body of rules that they are expected to follow and enforce. A fundamental principle of sportsmanship is that when competitors break a rule they will promptly take a penalty, which may be to retire.





Can't get a more blatant breach than this.  Can't get a more blatant example of bad sportsmanship.

Fuck them I say.

 

olaf hart

Super Anarchist
This whole clusterfuck is another good example of trial by social media, like the Me Too stuff.

BJ owner has a whinge, media pick it up, BJ owner doesn’t protest, and Oats is fried in the court of public opinion.

A lesson for us all, don’t make a positive statement unless you have proof and are prepared to give evidence.

 




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