2018 Rolex Sydney Hobart Yacht Race: The Race Committee has lodged a protest against Wild Oats XI

[paps49]

Ok so what I believe is most concerning about this is not necessarily the safety compliance issue but the tactical advantage that may have been sort by WOXI in turning their AIS off. 

Watching a competitor find a hole and sailing around them is a wonderful new tactical input on a large scale that offshore racing navigators haven’t had before. Most race boats would decline having the drag and weight of radome and using a radar target to do calcs would be pretty furry at best)

If WOXI sort a competitive advantage through breaking rules ( and I’m not saying they did) then it’s cheating. Non compliance with a piece of safety equipment we didn’t know we needed in the last 60 odd years doesn’t bother me so much.

They sailed a bloody good race but Id hate to think the navigator turned the transmit off whilst staring at his competitors numbers.

Vila to MR, "hey boss can you believe all these monkeys are transmitting on AIS, they must be stupid!"

 

[olaf hart]

It is relevant to Pap’s question, and frankly more significant than whether the AIS is sending or not.

I see using AIS or a tracker to see your opponents position as outside assistance.

 

[bowman81]

I think the RC/CYCA is getting off too easy in this thread. The protest results facts found say they had no information about the non compliance before the BJ interview.

However, their press release indicates they informed a number of boats that their AIS wasn't transmitting during the sched. 

Was the radio vessel too far away to have them on screen? Did they simply ignore it?

It stinks like the whole HF/sat phone incident in 2010.

 

[bowman81]

Once upon a time in the deep north there were two large yachts becalmed in a major race. The slightly smaller one (that used to be owned by the same guy who now owns the bigger one) had run out of drinking water and did not have any emergency water as required by the rules. The race director himself came out in a boat and gave them water to continue racing. The larger boat was quite close and saw the outside assistance but, as the aft guard were sailmakers and the smaller boat was a customer, they did not protest. The smaller boat did put in their declaration that they had received outside assistance and had not complied with the SI’s, yet no penalty was given and they won the race over all. The smaller boat would go onto win the S2H in later years and the crew of the bigger boat would go on to get a bigger boat and come second over the line in the same race. They would then report to the RC that the boat that beat them over the line had not complied with the SI’s.

YCMTSU.

Names changed to protect the guilty? 

 

[Cal20sailor]

Once upon a time in the deep north there were two large yachts becalmed in a major race. The slightly smaller one (that used to be owned by the same guy who now owns the bigger one) had run out of drinking water and did not have any emergency water as required by the rules. The race director himself came out in a boat and gave them water to continue racing. The larger boat was quite close and saw the outside assistance but, as the aft guard were sailmakers and the smaller boat was a customer, they did not protest. The smaller boat did put in their declaration that they had received outside assistance and had not complied with the SI’s, yet no penalty was given and they won the race over all. The smaller boat would go onto win the S2H in later years and the crew of the bigger boat would go on to get a bigger boat and come second over the line in the same race. They would then report to the RC that the boat that beat them over the line had not complied with the SI’s.

YCMTSU.

Water, Water everywhere but nary a drop to drink.

 

[staysail]

It is relevant to Pap’s question, and frankly more significant than whether the AIS is sending or not.

I see using AIS or a tracker to see your opponents position as outside assistance.

So how about having a look at them with your eyes to see where they are? Outside assistance?

Some of you guys are really struggling.

 

[Svanen]

The race committee lodged the protest - they really had no choice.

Certainly they had a choice: Rule 60.2 is discretionary.

 

[Rail Meat]

This question kind of gets to the heart of it.  I suppose (but have no way of knowing) WOXI contends that their AIS was working perfectly all the way along - as far as they knew.  And they filed their Post Race Report along those lines.  Then on the strength of a suggestion that their AIS was not transmitting they should amend their report?  I would want to know myself, for sure and so perhaps (I have no way of knowing) they cranked it back up in Hobart (Cold Boot) and presto they popped right up on the net.  There is speculation about the Cameraman in Sydney taking it out but how can they know that?  Maybe they have been unable to repeat the problem and so never discovered an error.

There is the rub.  Are they responsible for a good faith effort or the outcome?  It's like putting the right postage on a correctly addressed letter and sending it off.  Something can go wrong after its out of your hands.  You don't have complete control over whether it gets where its going - the outcome.

And I am still struck by how this online inquisition is directed at only one boat.  It is said that as many as 30 percent of the fleet had AIS irregularities on the course.  If this is about safety or the proper application of the rules and fairness then why is no one demanding that these boats tracks be examined, their post race reports be reviewed and/or amended, or extraordinary protests be commenced by sailors sitting in an armchair half way around the world - to preserve the integrity of the sport?

It starts to sound personal - like a Witch Hunt - if we are not asking those boats to meet the same standards of rules compliance. 

I have seen the same claims, but have not seen any actual evidence backing it.  I also have not had the time to go check any data sources for a sampling of other boats to see what the evidence suggests is the compliance rate.  Its not that hard other than needing access to the subscription services that show satellite reception of AIS signals.  If others were not functioning, they should be penalized as well.  Its also the type of surveillance the RC should do across the entire fleet if this is going to be a requirement in the SI.

In my view, there should have been a penalty, but something less than DSQ.  Maybe a time penalty based on the duration of the outage where a given boat was not transmitting.

One other observation for RCs and ROs.  Many boats will have an AIS name that does not match the name that they are entered in for the race.  If the SIs are going to mandate transmission, it would be most fair if the RC were then to also require submission of the AIS name used by the boat, and then publish a schedule of those names. Otherwise there is a game to be played with installing an AIS that has a name with no connection to the boat's listed name in the race.

 

[Rain Man]

Yes, and I bet they think it now was not worth it.

There is no excuse for being such a cunt that you break the most fundamental rule in the sport.

I kind of get why they didn't RAF.  The fundamental rule says they should take a penalty, which MAY include retirement.  They probably thought that, worst case, they would get a time penalty at the protest.  Then the protest went away on a technicality.  What do they do now?  RAF seems too harsh for this kind of rule violation - there is plenty of precedent for boats who commit this kind of foul to receive a time penalty and not a DSQ.  If they RAF the entire effort was in vain.  They can't give themselves a time penalty, the PC has to do it.  Kind of an odd predicament.  In their shoes I think I would have re-filed the finish report noting the non-compliance and waited to see what happened, assuming the original report did not include that information.  

If the original or an amended report did note the non-compliance, and the RC chose not to act on that information, they are scot free.  This is not an unusual thing - RC's overlook things like this fairly often.  Who hasn't had a safety inspection and been scolded for a minor infraction eg. knife not tied to the binnacle in the cockpit or hatch tie-downs not readily available?  I've seen much worse be overlooked - deliberately interfering with commercial traffic to the point where the skipper of the commercial vessel complained on the radio identifying the boat by name and sail number, failing to check in on a sked even with boats beside them yelling at them to remind them etc. etc.

 

[axolotl]

  Its not that hard other than needing access to the subscription services that show satellite reception of AIS signals.  If others were not functioning, they should be penalized as well.  Its also the type of surveillance the RC should do across the entire fleet if this is going to be a requirement in the SI.

Dunce.  AIS-B is not satellite based and does not require a subscription.  Perhaps you're confusing AIS with satellite tracker systems like YellowBrick, Spot, Explorer+, etc.  Go over and stand in the corner for 60 minutes.

 

[Maw]

Here's a question.

You're batting and nick it on the way to the keepers gloves. Only you know you hit it.

The opposing team is suspicious, but not confident enough to use an appeal. 

Do you stay at the crease? 

Or walk? 

 

[Maw]

Dunce.  AIS-B is not satellite based and does not require a subscription.  Perhaps you're confusing AIS with satellite tracker systems like YellowBrick, Spot, Explorer+, etc.  Go over and stand in the corner for 60 minutes.

Axolotl, I have a Class B transponder and I can see all the GNSS satellite locations, quantity and signal quality in my config setup? Or is that simply related to the Lat Long fix?

Edit: Don't answer that, I got off my arse and looked it up. I only have 1 x Transmitter on the transponder and that is on the VHF antenna frequency. Satellite is RX only.

 

[bowman81]

Here's a question.

You're batting and nick it on the way to the keepers gloves. Only you know you hit it.

The opposing team is suspicious, but not confident enough to use an appeal. 

Do you stay at the crease? 

Or walk? 

Cricket was also once a gentlemans sport until the big $$ came in. Pros will not walk until they get the finger.. 

 

[paps49]

What would Gilly do????

 

[axolotl]

Here's a question.

You're batting and nick it on the way to the keepers gloves. Only you know you hit it.

The opposing team is suspicious, but not confident enough to use an appeal. 

Do you stay at the crease? 

Or walk? 

A stick and ball game which is played with referees on a small turf; not relevant

.

 

[olaf hart]

So how about having a look at them with your eyes to see where they are? Outside assistance?

Some of you guys are really struggling.

AIS has a 15nm radius to surrounding boats.

Can you see a boat at night at 15nm?

you would be the one struggling..

 

[Francis Vaughan]

That is just getting confused.

There are two sets of satellites being talked about.

1. The GPS/Glonass/Galileo sats that transmit the positioning information. All AIS systems use at least one of these sat sets.
   
2. The various commercial sats carrying specialised AIS receivers that provide data feeds to commercial subscription services. 
   

CSTDMA Class-B transceivers are limited to 2 watts. Generally too low power to be received by any of the satellites carrying AIS receivers. SOTDMA class B and of course class A have higher power (5 and 12 watts respectively) and can be received. Generally it seems the fleet is still using CSTDMA class B. Even if someone did subscribe to one of the services offered by the sat owners with AIS receivers, you would not usually see the fleet.

 

[axolotl]

Axolotl, I have a Class B transponder and I can see all the GNSS satellite locations, quantity and signal quality in my config setup? Or is that simply related to the Lat Long ?

Yup, Class B is based on GNSS  so your device will report tight position information (GNSS) lockup, that doesn't mean you'll transmit that information to nearby boats if your transmit function is turned off.
 

 

[Maw]

Yup, Class B is based on GNSS  so your device will report tight position information (GNSS) lockup, that doesn't mean you'll transmit that information to nearby boats if your transmit function is turned off.
 

Thanks. I was more getting confused if a Class B can output, or uplink, to a satellite as well as the VHF freq.

I think Francis clarified my confusion nicely.  

 

[olaf hart]

That is just getting confused.

There are two sets of satellites being talked about.

1. The GPS/Glonass/Galileo sats that transmit the positioning information. All AIS systems use at least one of these sat sets.
   
2. The various commercial sats carrying specialised AIS receivers that provide data feeds to commercial subscription services. 
   

CSTDMA Class-B transceivers are limited to 2 watts. Generally too low power to be received by any of the satellites carrying AIS receivers. SOTDMA class B and of course class A have higher power (5 and 12 watts respectively) and can be received. Generally it seems the fleet is still using CSTDMA class B. Even if someone did subscribe to one of the services offered by the sat owners with AIS receivers, you would not usually see the fleet.

If you are a few nm away from an opponent, and he decides to head offshore at night to follow a wind shift, his AIS B position will tip you off..