2022 Moth Worlds
- Thread starter MattFranzek
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WCB
Super Anarchist
MattFranzek
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- #24
He got a Bieker in the fall and took his Bieker to Worlds. I believe he had a Mach 2 before that and now a buddy in Wisconsin sails it.
Im hearing very mixed reviews on the Exploder. Some people say they are great, others that the boats need some more refining. Its going to be really interesting to see a mix up of multiple Aerocets, Biekers and Exploders in England next summer. DFS probably would of won in a Bieker, but to see Aerocets go 1/3/7 makes you wonder if the platform is a step up, or if its a foil thing.
17mika
Anarchist
my 2c
re exploders I heard of some foil breakage issues in arg, so not fully dialled in yet.
it's a pity ruggi could not come, so we hsve not seen where manta stands. some boats there had liftoff issues in the waves, definitely that hull has low buoyancy so heavy people could struggle in that. I guess I will see next feb when I hit the water.
I think there is no big difference in performance between aerocets and biekers really. foils of aerocets are not better than biekers and that's a fact I would say. One thing that would really be interesting to know of biekers is about foil verticals. this summer I heard about the trend of people going with short verticals. I have not asked really to people in arg but looking at photos I think people is going short (short bieker verticals are basically similar to all other boats verticals)
re exploders I heard of some foil breakage issues in arg, so not fully dialled in yet.
it's a pity ruggi could not come, so we hsve not seen where manta stands. some boats there had liftoff issues in the waves, definitely that hull has low buoyancy so heavy people could struggle in that. I guess I will see next feb when I hit the water.
MattFranzek
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- #26
I think Worlds will be huge again after the AC and Olympics in 2024, hopefully they are December 2024. Be really cool to see the starting lines stacked with the whose who again. Not knocking the fleet in Arg, but a lot of guys and girls couldnt make it.
I hear only good things from the guys who have gotten Explodes already, but then I ask around and just hear they have lots of trouble. Hard to tell?
I ordered my Bieker with the short v3 verticals. They are the same length as the current Mach 2 long verticals and Exocet foils. Same ones that Slingsby used in Guardia worlds in 2021. I think it mostly comes down to preference. The longer ones you have to be more precise with your tacks and gybes because the arc the boat travels is further. There is also an argument about if the longer ones really are faster or not. Im really excited to watch worlds in 2023, hopefully its a tight battle for the top between Explodes, Mavricks, Aerocets, Swifts, and Biekers. My boat should arrive right about then, so fingers crossed Im not really depressed that it cant keep up any more...
17mika
Anarchist
I have not spoken to amac recently, so no first hand info, but it definitely looks like so.
regarding short/long foils. I am getting a long foil boat in 2 months. let's hope it doesn't get too difficult. we will see.
MattFranzek
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- #29
AMac would need to move the mast stump back 100mm, design new wings for the new boat, and possible come up with new horizontals and verticals? I think you also would need to move the centerboard trunk forward, but dont quote me on that. At that point it would be a Mach 3, a complete new boat. On the other hand, Waszps are selling 500ish boats a year, the class is exploding, and its getting tons of people into foiling. AMac has said he would like to see builder trophies in the Moth class at big regattas, rewarding people who bring Mach 2s, Exocets, etc. I thought about completely tearing down my Mach 2, moving the the mast stump, but idk.
17Mika, youll have to let me know how the long foils go. I get to make adjustments to my order up to sometime in May, so Im curios how you like the long verticals. Im pretty set with the v3 short verticals, but I am torn on the hard tramps. I keep hearing people are going back to soft tramps because their knees hurt, and its a (small) weight penalty. Not getting them also saves me a good chunk of money, which matters.
Sure, that's one way to look at it. On the other hand Nathan did pretty good on the very sock Mach 2 at Garda with a KA sail that has bean so long out of fashion. Before that TB went also very well with an older gen M2. I don't doubt there are significant speed differences but I think they are vastly exaggerated by the top guys moving to newer boats all the time. Hard to comment on this worlds though as it had the worst coverage ever.
MattFranzek
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- #31
Most people are in agreement the reason Nathan did so well is his boat handling of a Mach 2 is way better than just about anyone else’s, no matter the boat. But, he wasn’t as fast.
The masts on the new board are 50mm to 100mm further back from the bow than the Mach 2 mast. Moving the center of effort aft changes things I don’t 100% understand except it’s faster.
The tramps/wings also are more aerodynamic on the new boats. No matter what you do a Mach 2 isn’t getting to 21kts up wind. Too much wind resistance. Even the Exocets aren’t there.
Boat speed matters, but it’s boat handling that makes most of the difference. Yes the top guys are gold medalists, but to get close from what I understand you need to not touch down/crash on >75% of your tacks and all of your gybes. If you can foil tack/gybe/crash less, you’ll be at the front end of the fleet no matter the boat. Then the boat matters.
I did order a Bieker. My Mach 2 needs a lot of love and at this point in my head it makes sense to get a new boat instead of adding a bow sprit, getting a new mast/boom, getting new foils, and the wing bars with out the compression struts. Will I be able to keep up? Probably not, but I’ll have no excuses.
MattFranzek
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- #33
Luka Damic talked about the masts moving back in a MothCast a year or two (or three?) back. Lee helm, windward heel, center of effort/drive I think were all part of it.
Moth Cast has been awesome to learn about the boats, fleet, and history. Wish they hadn’t stopped/paused but the pandemic screwed a lot of things up.
17mika
Anarchist
I think speedwise thinair has been pretty ok. not sure really comparable to aerocet/biekers, but not slow either. I remember eddie bridle doing some pretty good results.
I know from when boat was first out there (the first thinnair with 2 "n") there were definitely some quality issues, but I do not anything about the quality of the "thinair v2" boats.
Michele
17mika
Anarchist
are you sure it has no kingpost? and with kicker loads we have, i do not think any mast can take boom loads high up the mast.
Anyway I finally got the manta 2.0 wet! just a couple of hours.
- geometry is less insane than what I thought. boat is really well thought in its unconventional ideas. Only "practical" issue is that for self lauch I need to fabricate a wing trolley cause the120cm long ds makes it impossible to self launch
- upwind boat feels like a rocket. super confortable with high wings, supersilent.. awesome feeling.
-i have big foils which are fairly forgiving and with early lift. i know in ARG people were struggling with takeoff, but I felt all ok.
- @mattfr long foils are more difficult, full period. coming from a boat with short foils I feel the difference, especially downwind it all feels sligtly more loose.
- high wings and big fairing make for a different tacking tecnique... I still have to understand really how to move in the tacks. very much WIP. I hope next we to start to get this right.
overall pretty happy.. i have to work out timing and feet placement in the tacks really now
Daniel Holman
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- 136
I think that is the aerocet prototype which had lowers - you can just make them out in the pic and the cutout in the sleeve. This in turn I guess allowed a taller kingpost (or perhaps no kingpost!) and much lower vang loads to achieve same leech tension. That said the production aerocets seem to be on beiker / exploder style kingposts so presumably the lowers idea was not so good in practice.
MattFranzek
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- #39
That is the prototype Aerocet that Magurie just sold, I think. I saw the post on FB. A buddy inquired about it and Maguire would not sell him the boat as its more of a boat for someone with boat building skills. It does not have a king post, looks a bit weird actually.
@mika, congrats on the new boat! Im exited to hear about it and now the learning curve goes. Noted on the long v short foils, I switched my order to the short foils and am super excited about it. Im sure the footwork will be slightly different, but youll get it!
There is still some debate internally about soft v hard tramps. The check book might win that argument no matter how many people suggest the hard tramps. The top US finisher at ARG worlds swears by the soft tramps so Im not too stressed about it. Plan is to next winter order small foils, long verticals, and possibly hard wings then.
@Daniel, I was confused at what those were when I first saw the picture. Makes sense they are lowers of some sort.
On a separate note, if anyone is looking for an Expolder Moth, check the US Moth FB page. Sounds like there are more then a few being imported by a dealer into Florida, like 30... I don't have any official word on price or connection to the dealer, but just to seeing the class grow!
@mika, congrats on the new boat! Im exited to hear about it and now the learning curve goes. Noted on the long v short foils, I switched my order to the short foils and am super excited about it. Im sure the footwork will be slightly different, but youll get it!
There is still some debate internally about soft v hard tramps. The check book might win that argument no matter how many people suggest the hard tramps. The top US finisher at ARG worlds swears by the soft tramps so Im not too stressed about it. Plan is to next winter order small foils, long verticals, and possibly hard wings then.
@Daniel, I was confused at what those were when I first saw the picture. Makes sense they are lowers of some sort.
On a separate note, if anyone is looking for an Expolder Moth, check the US Moth FB page. Sounds like there are more then a few being imported by a dealer into Florida, like 30... I don't have any official word on price or connection to the dealer, but just to seeing the class grow!
WCB
Super Anarchist
I saw Harry Melges' Bieker (and Ripley's) in Miami two weeks ago. Very cool looking boats until the king post step broke leaving Ripley out in the bay. Harry had to grab a ride out to collect Ripley and the parts.
