2022 Moth Worlds

[MattFranzek]

I saw Harry Melges' Bieker (and Ripley's) in Miami two weeks ago. Very cool looking boats until the king post step broke leaving Ripley out in the bay. Harry had to grab a ride out to collect Ripley and the parts.

Oops... Thats moth sailing for you... That boat I think is brand new, MacKay will stand by it and make it right.

 

[WCB]

Oops... Thats moth sailing for you... That boat I think is brand new, MacKay will stand by it and make it right.

I'm sure they will...it was the weekend and he was waiting to hear from them on Monday, he hoped that he would get some advice on how to make the fix, quickly.

 

[17mika]

That's a strange failure. Material mistake in layering the carbon over the kingpost?

If I remember correctly latest biekers are also prepeg, so should not be a laminate issue.

 

[WCB]

That's a strange failure. Material mistake in layering the carbon over the kingpost?

If I remember correctly latest biekers are also prepeg, so should not be a laminate issue.

No, amazingly enough it was just the metal post that the mast sits on. It sheared off. I mentioned to him that he might consider drilling out the old piece, threading in a new stainless bolt, cutting off the head and rounding the leftover post. That would be option b though as he was hoping for a factory fix.

 

[MattFranzek]

No, amazingly enough it was just the metal post that the mast sits on. It sheared off. I mentioned to him that he might consider drilling out the old piece, threading in a new stainless bolt, cutting off the head and rounding the leftover post. That would be option b though as he was hoping for a factory fix.

Oh, so its the male piece that the mast goes on? I honestly have not heard of that piece breaking before, but it is a moth so these things happen.

 

[WCB]

Oh, so its the male piece that the mast goes on? I honestly have not heard of that piece breaking before, but it is a moth so these things happen.

Yes, the metal post. It was funny as it's not centered in the king post, it's a little forward.

 

[MattFranzek]

Yes, the metal post. It was funny as it's not centered in the king post, it's a little forward.

I texted Harry last night and its all fixed. He didn't say any more then that.

I always wondered why it wasnt centered and chalked it up to Paul Bieker is way smarter then me. Im sure there is a rig cant/rake reason behind it. Biekers were the first boat to move the king post really far back, something like 10 cm further back then the Mach 2 and Exocets (please correct me if Im wrong I dont have the exact numbers infront of me). It lets them not run as much rake while maintaining minimum helm in the rudder. Aparently thats one of the issues with the Exploders, they need a lot of rake to not have a ton of helm.

 

[17mika]

Answer is much simpler. pin is not centered, because the front of the mast (40mm diameter) has to be flush with the kingpost (which I guess is around 60mm diameter).

Since boats are heavy enough (I think a bieker fully rigged is close to 50kg, my boat I guess is similar) at least using a bigger diameter kingpost helps keeeping the weight dowbn

 

[hpsailing]

long foils are more difficult, full period. coming from a boat with short foils I feel the difference, especially downwind it all feels sligtly more loose.

@17mika - congrats on the new boat! Are Manta's new verticals long? How does the length compare to say Bieker? Also if you have seen the small horizontal compared to a Swift Small, Maguire or Bieker, I'd be curious if there is an obvious size differences. Thanks!

 

[WCB]

Maybe this is the safe place to ask. Why are there so many 2022 and 2023 Exploders for sale all of a sudden? From the outside looking in, this doesn't look good.

 

[17mika]

I

@17mika - congrats on the new boat! Are Manta's new verticals long? How does the length compare to say Bieker? Also if you have seen the small horizontal compared to a Swift Small, Maguire or Bieker, I'd be curious if there is an obvious size differences. Thanks!

Hi!
manta verticals have always been same lenght since 2019.
Rudder is same design for a few years now (in 2021 they just made a bigger horizontal).
mainfol vertical is a new design since september last year, with the new big horizontal, but I think it ie same lenght as old mainfoils. span of this is around 110; I know no details about new small mainfoil horizontal, other than it is in the plans.

I have not measured verticals, but from what I remember they are close to the long biekers.

I now have big foils (rudder and main), will probably get then smalls.

 

[17mika]

Maybe this is the safe place to ask. Why are there so many 2022 and 2023 Exploders for sale all of a sudden? From the outside looking in, this doesn't look good.

that's a good question! I've been told all alinghi team people are selling their moth cause they will have less time, but I do not know if there are any other reasons

 

[MattFranzek]

Maybe this is the safe place to ask. Why are there so many 2022 and 2023 Exploders for sale all of a sudden? From the outside looking in, this doesn't look good.

The boats are rumored to be built fast and cheap, the foils (specifically the rudders) all need to be replaced almost as soon as you get them with foils from Luka or AMac (I saw somewhere that Mach 2 foils match the top of the Exploder), and the hulls require a lot of time and work to keep together.

Ive been told the builder is working very hard to solve the issues, but for $30-35k USD ($23k Euro) for a brand new boat (shipped to the USA), you expect a little nicer of a finished product. I also was told they are not much easier to sail then a Bieker, so why not get a Bieker since sailing them is the same and it is a lot easier to take a Bieker apart to ship it.

Now saying all of that, a guy in Florida is importing a few containers (rumored to be 30-60 boats) of them and you get everything but a sail for ~$32k, which is $10-20k less then you can get a new Bieker, Aerocet, Mantra, or Swift delivered in the USA.

I think the builder is trying to do what he did with the ACat and build a ton of boats fast and cheap, flood the market with them and push the rest of the builders out. He seems to be getting boats in hands of the top guys for really really cheap (aka free) to win races. I dont see it happening with the Moth class as there are 4 to 6 established builders who matter who are building boats, and have a reputation/following of people who like their boats. When Exploder did it in the ACat class, they really only had DNA as the competition.

Now saying all of this, I have a lot of free time, a limited amount of money, so the Exploder is on the radar as a possibility. But being a one piece boat, it will be a lot harder to ship around the US and to Worlds, so Ill spend the savings in shipping 10x and have a shit boat when Im done.

TLDR: Boats are build fast/cheap, ride height/gearing sucks, foils are fragile. Lots of development still needs to be done and the builder is working on it.

 

[17mika]

Thanks Matt! I did not know the details, still honestly the weight of those exploders really looked too good to be true.
I've been told about the foils fragility in the past, the spanish guy I sailed with yesterday told me hopefully now they have found a good on (he was sailing latest proto foils) which should make production. fingers crossed, cause if they get it right, it would become a good alternative on an attractive price.

 

[WCB]

The boats are rumored to be built fast and cheap, the foils (specifically the rudders) all need to be replaced almost as soon as you get them with foils from Luka or AMac (I saw somewhere that Mach 2 foils match the top of the Exploder), and the hulls require a lot of time and work to keep together.

Ive been told the builder is working very hard to solve the issues, but for $30-35k USD ($23k Euro) for a brand new boat (shipped to the USA), you expect a little nicer of a finished product. I also was told they are not much easier to sail then a Bieker, so why not get a Bieker since sailing them is the same and it is a lot easier to take a Bieker apart to ship it.

Now saying all of that, a guy in Florida is importing a few containers (rumored to be 30-60 boats) of them and you get everything but a sail for ~$32k, which is $10-20k less then you can get a new Bieker, Aerocet, Mantra, or Swift delivered in the USA.

I think the builder is trying to do what he did with the ACat and build a ton of boats fast and cheap, flood the market with them and push the rest of the builders out. He seems to be getting boats in hands of the top guys for really really cheap (aka free) to win races. I dont see it happening with the Moth class as there are 4 to 6 established builders who matter who are building boats, and have a reputation/following of people who like their boats. When Exploder did it in the ACat class, they really only had DNA as the competition.

Now saying all of this, I have a lot of free time, a limited amount of money, so the Exploder is on the radar as a possibility. But being a one piece boat, it will be a lot harder to ship around the US and to Worlds, so Ill spend the savings in shipping 10x and have a shit boat when Im done.

TLDR: Boats are build fast/cheap, ride height/gearing sucks, foils are fragile. Lots of development still needs to be done and the builder is working on it.

Thanks for the info on this. I figured it had to be something along these lines as there are boats being offered brand new but set up, or used a couple of times...etc.