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2022 Sydney To Hobart

Recidivist

Super Anarchist
I belong to a similar club - we make a decent profit every year, and have done for most of the 150 years we have existed. We have never, and still don't need crew to be members to survive.
My current club is entirely volunteer. Club racing is a pretty small scene, and income from that and memberships would not pay the insurance, let alone maintenance on building and rescue/course boats.

Fortunately the club has a history of running regattas, which are well supported by competitors from far and wide. We try to give the competitors good race management and enjoyable racing. They in turn appreciate the efforts and enjoy themselves, so they come back year after year. Without those regattas, the club would disappear in short order.

I deliberately stay clear of club management, but it seems to me that when AS say something, the club complies without question. Accordingly, they charge for Sailpass - not sure how much, but the annual financials disclose that income from Sailpass is less than $100. That is NOT going to save the club! I am convinced that the administration burden makes Sailpass a nett negative for the club - but then it's not about the clubs, is it? It's about funding for AS, which is the single largest issue they have spent most of the past 15 years or so worrying about.
You are in the minority to hold supportive views of the AS Prescription to Rule 46.

Hear, hear. Totally agree with this. And mccroc's very valid point that, if Sailpass is good for the sport, why does no other country in the world have a similar prescription?


Edit: Wait, why are we discussing this in the S-H thread? Surely this should be in the AS thread? Oh fuck it - it should be discussed as widely as possible, so have at it.
 
Just came across this.! Some legends there. Sorry it's so long but IMO it deserves the mention.!

The list of 'Hobart Heroes' up to and including 2018 Rolex Sydney Hobart Yacht Race is:

  • Tony Cable (NSW) - 53 since 1961 (1 overall win, 2 line honours)
  • Tony Ellis (NSW) - 52 since 1963 (1 overall win, 2 line honours)
  • Colin Wildman (NSW) - 51 since 1963 (1 overall win, 1 line honours)
  • Bill Ratcliff (NSW) - 50 since 1963
  • Syd Fischer (NSW) - 47 since 1962 (1 overall win, 2 line honours)
  • Bruce Gould (NSW) - 46 since 1963 (2 overall wins, 2 line honours)
  • Lindsay May (NSW) - 46 since 1973 (3 overall wins, 1 line honours)
  • David Kellett (NSW) - 46 since 1968 (1 overall win, 2 line honours)
  • John 'The Fish' Bennetto (TAS, dec) - 44 since 1947 (1 overall win, 1 line honours)
  • Lou Abrahams (VIC, dec) - 44 since 1963 (2 overall wins)
  • Michael Spies (NSW) - 43 since 1976 (1 overall win, 1 line honours)
  • Mike Green (NSW) - 41 since 1977 (3 overall wins, 1 line honours)
  • Richard 'Sightie' Hammond (NSW, dec) - 40 since 1952 (2 overall wins, 2 line honours)
  • Bernie Case (VIC) - 40 since 1962 (1 line honours)
  • Roger Hickman (NSW, dec) - 39 since 1974 - (3 overall wins)
  • Bruce Taylor (VIC) - 39 since 1980
  • Ed Psaltis (NSW) - 38 since 1979 (1 overall win)
  • Kingsley Piesse (VIC) - 37 since 1983
  • Ralph Carlier (NSW) - 36 since 1973
  • Colin Tipney (NSW) - 36 since 1979 (1 overall win, 2 line honours)
  • Jack Goluzd (NSW) - 36 since 1978 (2 overall wins, 3 line honours)
  • Phil Eadie (NSW) - 35 since 1972 (3 overall wins, 2 line honours)
  • Peter Green (NSW, dec) - 35 races since 1947 (1 overall win)
  • Richard Norman (NSW) - 35 since 1955 (2 overall wins)
  • Fraser Johnston (NSW) - 35 since 1963 (2 overall wins)
  • Tony Kirby (NSW) - 35 since 1983
  • Robert Case (NSW) - 35 since 1985 (1 overall win)
  • Colin Betts (NSW) - 34 since 1955 (3 overall wins, 2 line honours)
  • Don Mickleborough (NSW, dec) - 34 since 1958 (1 line honours)
  • Colin Anderson (VIC) - 34 since 1973 (2 overall wins)
  • Kim Jaggar (NSW) - 34 since 1977
  • Carl Crafoord (NSW) - 34 since 1980 (4 overall wins)
  • Larry Jamieson (NSW) - 34 since 1983 (2 overall wins, 1 line honours)
  • David Lawson (NSW, dec) - 33 since 1961 (1 line honours)
  • Geoff Rouvray (NSW) - 33 since 1967
  • Roger Howlett (TAS) - 33 since 1969
  • Tony Hearder (NSW) - 33 since 1975 (3 line honours)
  • John Woodford (NSW) - 33 since 1979 (1 overall win, 1 line honours)
  • Noel Drennan - 33 since 1980 (2 overall wins, 3 line honours)
  • Gavin Gourlay (VIC) - 33 since 1984
  • Adam Brown (NSW) - 33 since 1985 (3 overall wins, 1 line honours)
  • James Permezel - 33 since 1985
  • Peter Fletcher (VIC) - 33 since 1987
  • Don Lang (VIC, dec) - 32 races since 1952 (1 overall win)
  • Maurice Cameron (NSW) - 32 since 1974
  • Steve Jarvin (NSW) - 31 since 1981 (2 overall wins, 14 line honours)
  • Ian (Barney) Walker (VIC) - 32 since 1983 (3 overall wins, 3 line honours)
  • Damian Parkes (NSW) - 32 since 1976 (1 line honours)
  • Peter Inchbold (NSW) - 32 since 1980 (1 overall win)
  • Alby Burgin (NSW, dec) - 31 since 1955 (1 overall win)
  • Peter Shipway (NSW) - 31 since 1968 (2 overall wins, 5 line honours)
  • John Harris (NSW) - 31 since 1971 (2 overall wins, 2 line honours)
  • Michael Coxon (NSW) - 31 since 1979 (1 overall win, 5 line honours)
  • Bill Sykes - 31 since 1981 (1 overall win)
  • Julian Freeman - 31 since 1982 (2 overall wins, 2 line honours)
  • David Blanchfield - 31 since 1985 (1 overall win)
  • Max Crafoord (NSW, dec) - 30 races since 1953 (3 line honours)
  • Albert Mitchell (NSW) - 30 since 1954 (2 overall wins)
  • Peter Kurts (NSW, dec) - 30 races since 1964 (2 overall wins)
  • Magnus Halvorsen (NSW, dec) - 30 since 1946 (5 overall wins, 3 line honours)
  • Lester Nibbs (TAS) - 30 since 1960
  • Rod Jackman (TAS) - 30 since 1971
  • Geoff Barter (NSW) - 30 since 1974
  • Robbie Burns (NSW) - 30 since 1974 (1 overall win, 1 line honours)
  • Ian Potter (NSW) - 30 since 1976 (1 line honours)
  • David Ellis (NSW) - 30 since 1977 (2 overall wins, 3 line honours)
  • Peter Messenger (NSW) - 30 since 1980 (4 overall wins)
  • Matt Allen (NSW) - 30 since 1980 (3 overall wins)
  • Richard Grimes - 30 since 1983
  • Bruce Jackson (NSW) - 29 since 1952
  • John Solomon (TAS) - 29 since 1967
  • Peter Duffield (NSW) - 29 since 1968
  • Graeme Fraser (NSW, dec) - 29 since 1973
  • Phil Molony - 29 since 1975
  • Greg Prescott (TAS) - 29 since 1980
  • Hugh Brodie (NSW) - 29 since 1982 (1 overall win)
  • Sean Langman (NSW) - 29 since 1982
  • Robert Moore (NSW) - 29 since 1985
  • Sven Runow (NSW) - 29 since 1985 (4 overall wins, 8 line honours)
  • Erik Adriaanse - 29 since 1986 (1 overall win, 2 line honours)
  • Steve Grellis - 29 since 1987
  • Bill Thompson (NSW, dec) - 28 since 1956 (2 line honours)
  • Hugh Treharne (NSW) - 28 since 1968 (2 overall wins)
  • Bob Fraser (NSW) - 28 since 1973 (1 overall win, 2 line honours)
  • Michael Bellingham - 28 since 1976 (1 overall win)
  • Ian Davis - 28 since 1977 (2 overall wins)
  • Greg Johnson (NSW) - 28 since 1980 (1 overall win, 1 line honours)
  • David Hodgson (NSW) - 28 since 1981 (5 line honours)
  • Adrienne Cahalan (NSW) - 28 since 1984 (2 overall wins, 6 line honours)
  • Bruce Clarke (NSW) - 28 since 1986 (2 overall wins, 4 line honours)
  • Andrew Taylor - 28 since 1986
  • Peter Sheldrick - 28 since 1987 (1 overall win, 1 line honours)
  • Bob Thomas - 28 since 1988 (1 overall win)
  • Brad Kellett (NSW) - 28 since 1992 (1 overall win, 1 line honours)
  • Stan Darling (NSW, dec) - 27 since 1947 (5 overall wins, 2 line honours)
  • Des O'Connell (NSW, dec) - 27 since 1947
  • Rolfe Mische (NSW, dec) - 27 races since 1963 (1 line honours)
  • Mike Hesse (NSW) - 27 since 1965 (2 overall wins, 1 line honours)
  • Josko Grubic (SA, dec) - 27 since 1966
  • Peter Joubert (VIC, dec) - 27 since 1968
  • Richard Bearman (NSW) - 27 since 1969
  • John Mooney (VIC) - 27 since 1969
  • Graeme Freeman (TAS/NSW, dec) - 27 since 1970 (4 line honours)
  • Simon Firth (TAS) - 27 since 1973 (1 overall win)
  • Lew Carter (NSW, dec) - 27 since 1973
  • Michael Formosa (NSW) - 27 since 1981
  • Jeremy Rae - 27 since 1992 (2 overall wins, 1 line honours)
  • Alan Butler (VIC, dec) - 26 since 1946 (3 overall wins, 1 line honours)
  • Warren Anderson (NSW) - 26 since 1970
  • Jim Dunstan (NSW) - 26 since 1972 (1 overall win)
  • Bill Watson (TAS, dec) - 26 since 1973 (3 line honours)
  • Colin O'Connor - 26 since 1974
  • John Williams - 26 since 1975
  • Iain Murray (NSW) - 26 since 1977 (3 overall wins, 9 line honours)
  • Peter Hopkins (TAS) - 26 since 1982
  • Grant Wharrington (VIC) - 27 since 1982 (1 line honours)
  • Darren Senogles (NSW) - 26 since 1987 (2 overall wins, 2 line honours)
  • John Whitfeld - 26 since 1990 (1 overall win)
  • Jim Nixon - 26 since 1992
  • Sam Hunt (NSW) - 26 since 1993 (2 overall wins, 1 line honours)
  • Russell Evans (VIC, dec) - 25 since 1958
  • Robert Green (VIC) - 25 since 1965
  • Ian Treharne (NSW) - 25 since 1967
  • Toby Richardson (TAS) - 25 since 1973 (3 overall wins, 3 line honours)
  • George Snow (NSW) - 25 since 1975 (1 overall win, 2 line honours)
  • Graeme Ainley - 25 since 1975
  • Hugo van Kretschmar (NSW) - 25 since 1976 (3 line honours)
  • Bill Riley (NSW) - 25 since 1976
  • Tony Poole (NSW) - 25 since 1977
  • Hugh O'Neill (NSW) - 25 since 1981
  • John Walker (NSW, dec) - 25 since 1981
  • Robbie Naismith - 25 since 1984 (2 overall wins, 12 line honours)
  • Jim Holley (NSW, dec) - 25 since 1986
  • Matt Shillingtpn - 25 since 1989 (2 overall wins, 9 line honours)
Kingsley Piesse may sail on a Vic boat (Chutzpah) but he’s from WA
 

dchs89

Member
80
102
It says a lot that SailPass can derail a discussion about the foremost yachting race in Australia.

I think we have an unspoken gentleman's agreement at our club to leave the rule unenforced but it sounds like it's being taken pretty seriously elsewhere. Great topic for one of those Hitler meme videos.

On topic, I think Ichi Ban will win again.
 

Onthelock!

Member
69
48
My current club is entirely volunteer. Club racing is a pretty small scene, and income from that and memberships would not pay the insurance, let alone maintenance on building and rescue/course boats.

Fortunately the club has a history of running regattas, which are well supported by competitors from far and wide. We try to give the competitors good race management and enjoyable racing. They in turn appreciate the efforts and enjoy themselves, so they come back year after year. Without those regattas, the club would disappear in short order.

I deliberately stay clear of club management, but it seems to me that when AS say something, the club complies without question. Accordingly, they charge for Sailpass - not sure how much, but the annual financials disclose that income from Sailpass is less than $100. That is NOT going to save the club! I am convinced that the administration burden makes Sailpass a nett negative for the club - but then it's not about the clubs, is it? It's about funding for AS, which is the single largest issue they have spent most of the past 15 years or so worrying about.


Hear, hear. Totally agree with this. And mccroc's very valid point that, if Sailpass is good for the sport, why does no other country in the world have a similar prescription?


Edit: Wait, why are we discussing this in the S-H thread? Surely this should be in the AS thread? Oh fuck it - it should be discussed as widely as possible, so have at it.
France has it, the FFV “licence”
 

PIL66 - XL2

Super Anarchist
2,837
969
Stralya
I belong to a similar club - we make a decent profit every year, and have done for most of the 150 years we have existed. We have never, and still don't need crew to be members to survive. Many crew have become members, but of their own volition. I can't speak for your club, but to me the issue is your club management if you need crew to pay.

Name one other sport where one person supplies everything and offers anyone the chance to compete with potentially no skill? AS have said when you play golf, you have to pay. How can you compare them? A sailing club doesn't supply the harbour or the ocean. How can you compare sailing to netball or football? It is a really poor comparison, to hide the worse reason for SailPass, and that is more money for AS from the Government.

And just because other sports require membership then that means sailing must? I repeat, we are the ONLY country in the world that has this prescription. If this was in the best interest of the sport, then why doesn't NZ do it? Or the UK, France or Spain?

So why should it be free? Well for the crews why not? The owner is paying thousands per year, why should the crew pay as well? I do not see anywhere a group of owners saying to AS - make my crew pay - the freeloading bastards!

And then AS change their entire constitution so that the club member has no voting rights and no say. The club is the member, and the bigger the club the better. At least in the past you could challenge for positions to create some change.

And as for your comment regarding criticism coming from people that aren't involved in the day to day running of a club - well I can only assume you live in a bubble - pretty much everyone that has commented on this issue are either serving, or past serving directors or volunteers of their club(s).

You are in the minority to hold supportive views of the AS Prescription to Rule 46.

Luckily, I can just ignore it as far as my sailing is concerned, but it is very sad to see a sport I love go down this path. Worse is that it is based on lies and misinformation.
Sorry for the derail but nothing worth noting on the Hobart atm... except a pack of sunfish wearing Stefan merch gathering off Eden.
@mccroc as you are discussing your club and it's financial state, how does your club make a profit specifically....? I assume the club is licensed and open everyday.... food..? Drinks..? ...? Does the club own the land..?
Ok, I'm learning here, I get that SA and sail pass are not liked by many so for now let's take them out of the conversation ......
Back to club membership ...
Simply put, if we let all crew sail for free and only charged owners yearly membership and race fees we would have been long gone.... and this goes for all small volunteer clubs whether they are SA affiliated or not and many are not. This has been the case for all clubs i've been involved in since the 70's except for a few that were licensed and had poker machines (funded mostly by non sailors)... and those clubs actually paid us to sail...
I am curious for others to jump in and tell us their club structure and income source that keep their doors open.......
CYC for example, have marina berths and membership (now $600 or $800 per year..?) and run races ..... it's a profitable business....
 

duncan (the other one)

Super Anarchist
5,555
567
Siderney
Sorry for the derail but nothing worth noting on the Hobart atm... except a pack of sunfish wearing Stefan merch gathering off Eden.
...
Back to club membership ...
Simply put, if we let all crew sail for free and only charged owners yearly membership and race fees we would have been long gone.... and this goes for all small volunteer clubs whether they are SA affiliated or not and many are not.

not this little black duck.

Our (dinghy) club survives quite ok without forcing membership on crews. We follow the sail-pass scheme for (dubious) insurance purposes, but don't charge for it.

We will (obviously) encourage newcomers to become more involved and sign up for membership, but it is not mandatory.
 

terrafirma

Super Anarchist
7,725
1,406
Melbourne
Sorry for the derail but nothing worth noting on the Hobart atm... except a pack of sunfish wearing Stefan merch gathering off Eden.
@mccroc as you are discussing your club and it's financial state, how does your club make a profit specifically....? I assume the club is licensed and open everyday.... food..? Drinks..? ...? Does the club own the land..?
Ok, I'm learning here, I get that SA and sail pass are not liked by many so for now let's take them out of the conversation ......
Back to club membership ...
Simply put, if we let all crew sail for free and only charged owners yearly membership and race fees we would have been long gone.... and this goes for all small volunteer clubs whether they are SA affiliated or not and many are not. This has been the case for all clubs i've been involved in since the 70's except for a few that were licensed and had poker machines (funded mostly by non sailors)... and those clubs actually paid us to sail...
I am curious for others to jump in and tell us their club structure and income source that keep their doors open.......
CYC for example, have marina berths and membership (now $600 or $800 per year..?) and run races ..... it's a profitable business....
As for club membership and I don't want to piss of us sailors, I am both a sailor and power boat user but I know when I've done some deliveries/trips around various parts of Australia and we anchor somewhere and go ashore to a resort/venue/beach club the first question they ask you is are you on a sailboat? The reason for that is their dislike for non-paying sailing sailors. Off course not all sailors are like that but I can tell you there is a genuine dislike. Point being many sailors have a reputation for being stingy and I think the same would apply for paying membership fees or simply putting money into a sailing club etc. Sailing Clubs have to make a living thank god they have alcohol licenses and catering facilities.!
 

mccroc

Anarchist
651
440
Sydney
Sorry for the derail but nothing worth noting on the Hobart atm... except a pack of sunfish wearing Stefan merch gathering off Eden.
@mccroc as you are discussing your club and it's financial state, how does your club make a profit specifically....? I assume the club is licensed and open everyday.... food..? Drinks..? ...? Does the club own the land..?
Ok, I'm learning here, I get that SA and sail pass are not liked by many so for now let's take them out of the conversation ......
Back to club membership ...
Simply put, if we let all crew sail for free and only charged owners yearly membership and race fees we would have been long gone.... and this goes for all small volunteer clubs whether they are SA affiliated or not and many are not. This has been the case for all clubs i've been involved in since the 70's except for a few that were licensed and had poker machines (funded mostly by non sailors)... and those clubs actually paid us to sail...
I am curious for others to jump in and tell us their club structure and income source that keep their doors open.......
CYC for example, have marina berths and membership (now $600 or $800 per year..?) and run races ..... it's a profitable business....
It does sound like your club is in a less stable state financially.

We do not have a public bar or restaurant. The bar is only open after races, and closes early except Friday nights. So during Winter it would only be open 6 times or so. Spring/Summer it is open Friday nights and Saturdays, with monthly Sundays as well. We have one paid staff for the hours it is open, everything else is done by volunteers - mostly directors with RSAs.

We do have a slipway where you can do your own work. We also have a reasonable number of moorings. This is the highest income part of the club.

Pretty much all repair and maintenance work is done through working bees.

As I said earlier, if crew members want to join, that is encouraged, and we have a pathway for them. Many of our racing members started out as crew and then joined when they bought their own yachts. I am all for clubs having their own programs to encourage membership, I feel SailPass and the RRS46 prescription is way too harsh. Every skipper I have asked when told anyone sailing them would have to buy a SailPass membership, or join the club, basically said: fuck no! Admittedly we are mostly "older" sailors!

CYCA is profitable mainly through the Clubhouse facilities I would have thought - but also a huge amount of sponsorship. I would think RSYS is similar - the restaurant, accomodation etc is a huge part of their profitability.

There is a saying in Sydney that CYCA operates for the sponsors, RSYS operates for the staff. We, like you it seems, operates for the sailors.

Hopefully end of thread drift!
 

Bill E Goat

Super Anarchist
4,614
402
Sydney
You would want to be at least 60 miles off the coast

1671233708964.png


1671233748176.png
 

duncan (the other one)

Super Anarchist
5,555
567
Siderney
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