260 Mass Shootings 160 Days, When Will it be Too Much?

giegs

Anarchist
909
451
Arid
Perhaps they were cowards. But we don't know that yet, we just think we do.
We know that they were mission ineffective.

Was this a result of cowardice, ineptitude, adherence to SOP, a skipped cup of coffee, trouble with the spouse, or who really cares what else? It won't be just one thing, or the same set of things for all groups and participants. People are complex and tragedy isn't so easily reducible. You're right to have compassion for everyone involved, it's a good instinct. You're wrong to insist on withholding assessment and judgement of known facts in deference to some potentially vindicating future perfect knowledge. It's entirely appropriate to highlight the disconnect between "protect and serve" messaging and (in)action. When the public trust is broken, the public can no longer rely on established process to generate good outcomes or understanding.

We probably agree that focusing too much on the individual can mislead assessments. So can focusing too little.
 

Fakenews

Super Anarchist
13,839
1,895
Withholding judgement until all the facts are known and the people making the a calls are heard from?
Yup. even in a court of law all the facts are never known. All the witnesses are not heard. In real life we all make decisions, important decisions without anywhere close to all the facts. We use common sense, past experiences, our intellect and eyes and ears to inform our judgement. This “let’s not rush to judgement“. Is a BS smokescreen
 

Mark_K

Super Anarchist
We know that they were mission ineffective.

Was this a result of cowardice, ineptitude, adherence to SOP, a skipped cup of coffee, trouble with the spouse, or who really cares what else? It won't be just one thing, or the same set of things for all groups and participants. People are complex and tragedy isn't so easily reducible. You're right to have compassion for everyone involved, it's a good instinct. You're wrong to insist on withholding assessment and judgement of known facts in deference to some potentially vindicating future perfect knowledge. It's entirely appropriate to highlight the disconnect between "protect and serve" messaging and (in)action. When the public trust is broken, the public can no longer rely on established process to generate good outcomes or understanding.

We probably agree that focusing too much on the individual can mislead assessments. So can focusing too little.
Known facts? But we don't know shit. Case in point:

What's the current criteria of that PD's SOP for making the barricade situation call? I've tried to find their FM. Not available, as are most, lest it provide a manual for defeating it to terrorists or other sum-such. Yet we KNOW that the guy who made it was incompetent??

This compelling need for immediate judgement...from what does it spring?
 

Raz'r

Super Anarchist
63,069
5,823
De Nile
That, but It's far more than that. They are also unreliable and in the heat of the moment if something goes bump in the night - I want muh gunz to work the first time.
I'm curious why you're so afraid. Carrying at work? That afraid? Get a different job. That afraid at home AND you have a trained attack GS? You a drug dealer or something?
 

giegs

Anarchist
909
451
Arid
But we don't know shit.
An easy feat for someone so willing.

As for "immediate" judgement, this ain't a court of law and public pressure through the 4th estate does have an influence on how things are investigated and handled. There is no perfect justice to be had here. The investigation, reporting, and public response all interplay. The local DA seems to believe that transparency and information sharing is not in the public interest at this time, and that appears to dovetail nicely with Abbott's reelection bid. A delayed investigation into a delayed police response. Apt. Certainly not reflective of systemic issues.

Keep holding out for whatever proof lets you think the operation failed successfully. You can only extend the benefit of the doubt so far until it's obvious you're tripping over yourself for other reasons.
 

sparau

Super Anarchist
1,172
235
Sunshine Coast Aus
And the vast majority of that 40k number are suicides. So they don’t count in a discussion about gun murders. Even if it’s “self murder”
'Vast majority' ? Almost 2 to 1 !
In the United States, suicides outnumber homicides almost two to one
Also, while trying to find a rope, strong branch etc, people relent.
Studies show that most attempters act on impulse, in moments of panic or despair. Once the acute feelings ease, 90 percent do not go on to die by suicide.”
 

sparau

Super Anarchist
1,172
235
Sunshine Coast Aus
Sry, I shouldn't post here, it is none of my business. I check Vice News usually for non US world content but caught this, it sounds like a whole community afraid : (
 

Se7en

Super Anarchist
1,464
586
Melbourne
Hmmm, I wonder what changed between then and now?

A common standard in problem solving and crisis management is to look at what’s changed from a previous condition where there was no crisis or problem to the current state where there is obviously a crisis level problem.

The point is: GUNZ have not changed.
You've put forward this argument a fe times now, clearly you think it's compelling.
But the reality is that it just shows how simplistic your thinking is - you are only capable of thinking about individual factors, you seem to lack the understanding that in a complex world, factors more oftern interreact than stand seperate.
Start thinking of the pressures of society as a catalyst, or an accelerant, acting on the large number of guns in your society.

Think of it like this - you can throw a heap of sugar into water and mix it up. Leave it sitting around for as long as you like. Nothing will happen, you have sweet water.
But then one day some naturally yeast lands in the water. Few days later you drink it. Whoa - that's different!

Is yeast the problem? Clearly not, put yeast in water by itself and nothing happens. Is sugar the problem?

Likewise - guns weren't the problem 50 years ago when there was only one gun for every 2 people. Your population density was about half what it is now, and society was much less stressful.
But now you have twice as many people, and society is a bunch more stressfull. You also have 4 times as many guns.

I like fast cars. And I like drinking wine. But maybe, just maybe, I shouldn't combine these two things?

A growing, stressed society with huge numbers of guns. Which of these things is easier to fix?
 

Blue Crab

benthivore
16,499
2,710
Outer Banks
Withholding judgement until all the facts are known and the people making the a calls are heard from?
This compelling need for immediate judgement...from what does it spring?
"Immediate judgement" makes me smile, Mark. As Giegs mentions, our trust in our leaders and facilitators to act in OUR best interests has eroded faster than the banks of the Yellowstone R.
The local DA seems to believe that transparency and information sharing is not in the public interest at this time, and that appears to dovetail nicely with Abbott's reelection bid. A delayed investigation into a delayed police response. Apt. Certainly not reflective of systemic issues.
JFK was killed 60 years ago ... still no explanation that matches ballistics or environment.
Jack Ruby make any sense to anyone?
Did Sirhan kill Bobby? Ballistics suggest it may have been the plainclothes officer by the door.
Bush v. Gore
Trump over Hillary. Really? Too many loose threads.
"Too big to fail" meant we got hosed, Tommy.
WMD
Gulf of Tonkin
Burger King lunch for Nazi kid shooting Blacks at church
Almost a free ride with Arbery in GA.
Musk's tax bill
Trust but verify
Lauren Boebert et al still free as birds
Covid as hoax
Presidential pardons
SCOTUS


That's before coffee. Whether you buy any or all of these situations, one needn't go full Random conspiracy nut to know that somewhere along the line, unelected and elected alike decided to withhold, obfuscate, dirty trickster, or just plain old lie to the American people. It probably began in 1776 but I'm not old enough to recall the specifics.
 

Blue Crab

benthivore
16,499
2,710
Outer Banks
"Studies show that most attempters act on impulse, in moments of panic or despair. Once the acute feelings ease, 90 percent do not go on to die by suicide.”

Heh

Yep, that's what they say about "most attempters." The others aren't available for comment at this time.
 

Mark_K

Super Anarchist
"Immediate judgement" makes me smile, Mark. As Giegs mentions, our trust in our leaders and facilitators to act in OUR best interests has eroded faster than the banks of the Yellowstone R.

JFK was killed 60 years ago ... still no explanation that matches ballistics or environment.
Jack Ruby make any sense to anyone?
Did Sirhan kill Bobby? Ballistics suggest it may have been the plainclothes officer by the door.
Bush v. Gore
Trump over Hillary. Really? Too many loose threads.
"Too big to fail" meant we got hosed, Tommy.
WMD
Gulf of Tonkin
Burger King lunch for Nazi kid shooting Blacks at church
Almost a free ride with Arbery in GA.
Musk's tax bill
Trust but verify
Lauren Boebert et al still free as birds
Covid as hoax
Presidential pardons
SCOTUS


That's before coffee. Whether you buy any or all of these situations, one needn't go full Random conspiracy nut to know that somewhere along the line, unelected and elected alike decided to withhold, obfuscate, dirty trickster, or just plain old lie to the American people. It probably began in 1776 but I'm not old enough to recall the specifics.
Yes, this does have some things in common with the processes of conspiracy theorists.

In this case people are taking what they heard on CNN in the first days as gospel....because it was what they want to hear. See the Giegs post above, and witness the outrage at the mere suggestion the conclusions drawn in those first reports might not be the whole story or even inaccurate generates in them. They cling so desperately to the narrative that a dozen officers were trembling in fear while kids were being shot that I MUST be a guy who just defends cops. I MUST be!

There are some now who will never accept anything but the narrative of cops cowering in the hall while kids were being shot now. Nothing can now convince them otherwise, as any who suggest that might not have been the case are lying...
 

Fakenews

Super Anarchist
13,839
1,895
I could have been hasty. Maybe they weren’t cowering and trembling in fear. Maybe it was just that they figured if they approached the door they’d get shot at and thought to themselves “yeah fuck that - let someone else go in”.
 

Steam Flyer

Sophisticated Yet Humble
45,317
10,142
Eastern NC
100% Not true. I have offered numerous numerous remedies. Some are burdens on law abiding gun owners, but I think they are still reasonable. ...

Then you turn around and raise all grades of hate & angst about goddam libby-rull DemonRat gun-grabbers and your sacred 2nd Amendment rights; and blame lefty-loonies who want less school shootings for the whole problem.

Same as it ever was.
 

Steam Flyer

Sophisticated Yet Humble
45,317
10,142
Eastern NC
"Immediate judgement" makes me smile, Mark. As Giegs mentions, our trust in our leaders and facilitators to act in OUR best interests has eroded faster than the banks of the Yellowstone R.

JFK was killed 60 years ago ... still no explanation that matches ballistics or environment.
Jack Ruby make any sense to anyone?
Did Sirhan kill Bobby? Ballistics suggest it may have been the plainclothes officer by the door.
Bush v. Gore
Trump over Hillary. Really? Too many loose threads.
"Too big to fail" meant we got hosed, Tommy.
WMD
Gulf of Tonkin
Burger King lunch for Nazi kid shooting Blacks at church
Almost a free ride with Arbery in GA.
Musk's tax bill
Trust but verify
Lauren Boebert et al still free as birds
Covid as hoax
Presidential pardons
SCOTUS


That's before coffee. Whether you buy any or all of these situations, one needn't go full Random conspiracy nut to know that somewhere along the line, unelected and elected alike decided to withhold, obfuscate, dirty trickster, or just plain old lie to the American people. It probably began in 1776 but I'm not old enough to recall the specifics.
Don't attribute to malice what can be explained by stupidity and/or laziness.

Yeah the white-supremacist far-right have mostly been supported by (and support) the upper 0.1% wealthiest. This is part of how they've managed to keep & exercise such an outsized grasp on power.

Yet we manage to stumble toward a more perfect union, at least some of the time. Enough to be hopeful IMHO
 

giegs

Anarchist
909
451
Arid
In this case people are taking what they heard on CNN in the first days as gospel....because it was what they want to hear. See the Giegs post above, and witness the outrage at the mere suggestion the conclusions drawn in those first reports might not be the whole story or even inaccurate generates in them. They cling so desperately to the narrative that a dozen officers were trembling in fear while kids were being shot that I MUST be a guy who just defends cops. I MUST be!
Eh now? Outrage? Look in the mirror.

You're having to do a lot of projecting and hedging to tilt at these windmills. I understand that you think some crucial piece of evidence yet to be revealed will show the officers involved to have behaved appropriately. Looking at their involvement in the immediate tragedy and subsequent actions with information releases and transparency, this seems unlikely. Consequently, until that crucial piece of evidence comes to light, there is little reason to believe the full after action review will be favorable. I'm happy to entertain the possibility, but insisting on waiting for that possibility to play out, ignoring how issues with law enforcement are often minimized or swept under the rug, is asinine.

Have you ever done accident investigations? It's not a sure thing, but when you get a whiff of fuckery there's almost always something to it. When it comes to American policing in the 21st century, fuckery is rightly assumed.
 

Grog

Anarchist's Anarchist
1,339
927
Germany
Yep they are just as dead by self murder as if they used a rope or drugs. When does the rope ban start?

The rope ban will start in a timely manner, I am sure, if after the gun ban the mass stranglings start to skyrocket. And it would be a lot easier to do since ropes are not covered by the holy, fucking, dreadfully misinterpreted 2nd.

(Where the fuck did the sub and upper script options go?! The new overlords owning this place are sure dumber than a fucking brick!)

On a more serious note: While you do at times offer serious ideas on gun control and distribution you spend much more time and effort on preaching the oppostite. Preaching as in not accessible to reason. Is this some kind of voluntary Tourette's? You might just as well drop it, because there is no reasonable point to grant almost unlimited access to Police or Military grade weapons to the general public, even in a somber and healthy society.

And this is probably the most overlooked point in that discussion: The USAnian society does no longer qualify for the 2nd, it has outgrown and outdumbed that privilege as well as brutally abused it.

I take the risk of repeating myself, but the single problem behind gun violence is the broad and mostly unrestricted access to guns, any kind of guns, in an unhinged and overheated society.
 

Mark_K

Super Anarchist
Eh now? Outrage? Look in the mirror.

You're having to do a lot of projecting and hedging to tilt at these windmills. I understand that you think some crucial piece of evidence yet to be revealed will show the officers involved to have behaved appropriately. Looking at their involvement in the immediate tragedy and subsequent actions with information releases and transparency, this seems unlikely. Consequently, until that crucial piece of evidence comes to light, there is little reason to believe the full after action review will be favorable. I'm happy to entertain the possibility, but insisting on waiting for that possibility to play out, ignoring how issues with law enforcement are often minimized or swept under the rug, is asinine.

Have you ever done accident investigations? It's not a sure thing, but when you get a whiff of fuckery there's almost always something to it. When it comes to American policing in the 21st century, fuckery is rightly assumed.
Your understanding needs correction: I believe the full investigation is likely to show didn't act nearly as badly as you think they did.
 

Raz'r

Super Anarchist
63,069
5,823
De Nile
Your understanding needs correction: I believe the full investigation is likely to show didn't act nearly as badly as you think they did.

I think you’re kissing the point. Let’s say they followed procedure. Then, what the fuck are they even for if the procedures don’t stop a massacre of children in progress? The “cops” used to wrar a halo of “good guys”, well, unless you are black, but that was the reputation. Back the blue and all that.

After Uvalde? Waste of resources is more appropo. Fucking useless.
 

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