260 Mass Shootings 160 Days, When Will it be Too Much?

Mark_K

Super Anarchist
I think you’re kissing the point. Let’s say they followed procedure. Then, what the fuck are they even for if the procedures don’t stop a massacre of children in progress? The “cops” used to wrar a halo of “good guys”, well, unless you are black, but that was the reputation. Back the blue and all that.

After Uvalde? Waste of resources is more appropo. Fucking useless.
I'm looking at the report there was a massive number of shots in the first few minutes and very little after that, and the article Fake posted that says the officers approached the door and in response he put a few rounds through it.

It's hard to imagine the officer in charge making the barricade-situation call if rounds were still being fired in that room at kids. It really is. I suspect the investigation will show there were long periods of silence, or the officer was told there was, and that led to the barricade-situation call. The notion that if there are police nothing bad must happen or heads must roll is downright silly. No set of procedures can promise that. Everybody is begging the question of "in progress" here. We lack the detail necessary to determine that at the moment.

I've done 18 monthly drills as one of the NCO I/Cs at our Cairo embassy. I know how the barricade-situation call is made. IF you have the perp contained and there an extended lull in the firing and there are civis adjacent, you may decide to evac the surrounding area before proceeding with taking him out. The assumption is the perp has killed everyone he wants to kill in his contained area.
 

Fakenews

Super Anarchist
13,848
1,899
I'm looking at the report there was a massive number of shots in the first few minutes and very little after that, and the article Fake posted that says the officers approached the door and in response he put a few rounds through it.

It's hard to imagine the officer in charge making the barricade-situation call if rounds were still being fired in that room at kids. It really is. I suspect the investigation will show there were long periods of silence, or the officer was told there was, and that led to the barricade-situation call. The notion that if there are police nothing bad must happen or heads must roll is downright silly. No set of procedures can promise that. Everybody is begging the question of "in progress" here. We lack the detail necessary to determine that at the moment.

I've done 18 monthly drills as one of the NCO I/Cs at our Cairo embassy. I know how the barricade-situation call is made. IF you have the perp contained and there an extended lull in the firing and there are civis adjacent, you may decide to evac the surrounding area before proceeding with taking him out. The assumption is the perp has killed everyone he wants to kill in his contained area.
Yeah, I see whats going on here. A complete lack of imagination. once I never imagined a sitting president would organize an attempted coup or that the entire GOP would go along with it. I didn’t imagine our COVID response would be so pathetic. I never imagined there’d be mass shootings every day, there’s lots I didn’t imagine. But in a world that’s going to shit and all the murders of civilians by cops it not hard for anyone with a brain to grasp that the cops didn’t go in because they were afraid of getting shot. They collectively thought ”let someone else do it“ which the CBD to their credit did because they were not incapacitated by a fear of getting shot.
 

Raz'r

Super Anarchist
63,141
5,853
De Nile
I'm looking at the report there was a massive number of shots in the first few minutes and very little after that, and the article Fake posted that says the officers approached the door and in response he put a few rounds through it.

It's hard to imagine the officer in charge making the barricade-situation call if rounds were still being fired in that room at kids. It really is. I suspect the investigation will show there were long periods of silence, or the officer was told there was, and that led to the barricade-situation call. The notion that if there are police nothing bad must happen or heads must roll is downright silly. No set of procedures can promise that. Everybody is begging the question of "in progress" here. We lack the detail necessary to determine that at the moment.

I've done 18 monthly drills as one of the NCO I/Cs at our Cairo embassy. I know how the barricade-situation call is made. IF you have the perp contained and there an extended lull in the firing and there are civis adjacent, you may decide to evac the surrounding area before proceeding with taking him out. The assumption is the perp has killed everyone he wants to kill in his contained area.
Kids were still calling 911, and you know not all the kids were dead in first shot. They just had to die while trying to play dead.

Either the cops fucked up

Or

The cops ain’t worth a shit and we should be looking to a new civilian force that CAN protect us.
 

Mark_K

Super Anarchist
Kids were still calling 911, and you know not all the kids were dead in first shot. They just had to die while trying to play dead.

Either the cops fucked up

Or

The cops ain’t worth a shit and we should be looking to a new civilian force that CAN protect us.
Put yourself in their shoes for a moment.

Part of the barricade call decision is the proximity of others. Few walls can withstand high-v rounds. Even cinder block saws through pretty quick. This was a school still packed with kids in adjacent rooms. If there had been a long lull in the firing (as is insinuated by accounts) the barricade call might have been the right one at the time....even if it didn't work out well. T'was reported this week a cop declined a shot at the perp outside because he didn't have a clear field of fire. Behind him was a school filled with kids. He fucks up whether he takes the shot or not.
 

Fakenews

Super Anarchist
13,848
1,899
Put yourself in their shoes for a moment.

Part of the barricade call decision is the proximity of others. Few walls can withstand high-v rounds. Even cinder block saws through pretty quick. This was a school still packed with kids in adjacent rooms. If there had been a long lull in the firing (as is insinuated by accounts) the barricade call might have been the right one at the time....even if it didn't work out well. T'was reported this week a cop declined a shot at the perp outside because he didn't have a clear field of fire. Behind him was a school filled with kids. He fucks up whether he takes the shot or not.
Spin this…

 

Raz'r

Super Anarchist
63,141
5,853
De Nile
Put yourself in their shoes for a moment.

Part of the barricade call decision is the proximity of others. Few walls can withstand high-v rounds. Even cinder block saws through pretty quick. This was a school still packed with kids in adjacent rooms. If there had been a long lull in the firing (as is insinuated by accounts) the barricade call might have been the right one at the time....even if it didn't work out well. T'was reported this week a cop declined a shot at the perp outside because he didn't have a clear field of fire. Behind him was a school filled with kids. He fucks up whether he takes the shot or not.
So, why bother investing in SWAT then if you just have to wait for big brother to come in and do your job? And I’m no cop hater. I’m a white guy, whose dad was a cop. Something is fucked up when cops won’t go in to save kids calling 911.
 

Mark_K

Super Anarchist
So, why bother investing in SWAT then if you just have to wait for big brother to come in and do your job? And I’m no cop hater. I’m a white guy, whose dad was a cop. Something is fucked up when cops won’t go in to save kids calling 911.
We don't know when the cops in the hall became aware of the 911 calls yet, or when the OIC became aware of them. That will come out. We will also learn exactly when the barricade call was made, and what he knew, or thought he knew, at the time he made it.
 

Fakenews

Super Anarchist
13,848
1,899
Put yourself in their shoes for a moment.

Part of the barricade call decision is the proximity of others. Few walls can withstand high-v rounds. Even cinder block saws through pretty quick. This was a school still packed with kids in adjacent rooms. If there had been a long lull in the firing (as is insinuated by accounts) the barricade call might have been the right one at the time....even if it didn't work out well. T'was reported this week a cop declined a shot at the perp outside because he didn't have a clear field of fire. Behind him was a school filled with kids. He fucks up whether he takes the shot or not.
Put yourself in the children’s place.
 

Raz'r

Super Anarchist
63,141
5,853
De Nile
We don't know when the cops in the hall became aware of the 911 calls yet, or when the OIC became aware of them. That will come out. We will also learn exactly when the barricade call was made, and what he knew, or thought he knew, at the time he made it.

I’m not sure where you’re coming from here. How is the excuse of the 911 call not getting through NOT yet another indication that the money spent on these cops was wasted?
 

Mark_K

Super Anarchist
I’m not sure where you’re coming from here. How is the excuse of the 911 call not getting through NOT yet another indication that the money spent on these cops was wasted?
I'm introducing to the group the notion that in this game "didn't work" does not automatically equal "gross incompetence/cowardice". You have to be willing to act with fragmentary information.

“And thus, the actions of life often not allowing any delay, it is a truth very certain that, when it is not in our power to determine the most true opinions we ought to follow the most probable.”
― Rene Descartes




The narrative that the cops did nothing but tremble in fear in the hallway was where I jumped in. Has that passed now? If it's down to nit-picking it's a different kettle of fish.
 

giegs

Anarchist
938
467
Arid
Your understanding needs correction: I believe the full investigation is likely to show didn't act nearly as badly as you think they did.
This changes little and assumes much.

It seems like most of your concern centers around ideas of individual accountability and the potential impact on a specific group of second victims you have affinity for.

I'm mostly interested in how institutions and systems create/worsen the bad outcomes they're intended to prevent. This is probably a topic for another thread (in General?), but I think what we're dancing around here is central to how modern ideas about safety and security produce the absurd outcomes they set out to avoid. Relative to competing priorities, if taxpayer funding of the growing police state doesn't prevent or appreciably mitigate this type of event, what purpose does it serve? Again, you're right to sympathize with everyone involved. None of this is rad. It's foolish however to think that institutions of authority don't a) sometimes contribute to undesirable outcomes or b) attempt to insulate themselves from scrutiny. Even in a conspiratorial sense, none of this is necessarily ill-willed.
 

Raz'r

Super Anarchist
63,141
5,853
De Nile
I'm introducing to the group the notion that in this game "didn't work" does not automatically equal "gross incompetence/cowardice". You have to be willing to act with fragmentary information.

“And thus, the actions of life often not allowing any delay, it is a truth very certain that, when it is not in our power to determine the most true opinions we ought to follow the most probable.”
― Rene Descartes




The narrative that the cops did nothing but tremble in fear in the hallway was where I jumped in. Has that passed now? If it's down to nit-picking it's a different kettle of fish.
nitpicking? Cowardice or incompetence. Neither is a nit.
 

Pertinacious Tom

Importunate Member
62,914
2,021
Punta Gorda FL
Depends on what Congress, constitutionally empowered to regulate the militia, determines. Could limit them to hash language if they want. Pretending all the people who want to play with military weapons are militia might not be a good tack to take.
Lots of congresscritters have already determined that battlefield .22's are weapons of war. That means they're suitable militia weapons for The People.

I'm pretending that "the people" means "the people" wherever it appears in the Bill of Rights. What do you like to pretend it means?
 

Fakenews

Super Anarchist
13,848
1,899
Hoo boy @Mark K isnt going to like this assessment from the head of Texas’s DPS

At the top of his remarks before the Texas Senate Committee, the director of the Texas Department of Public Safety said there was "compelling evidence" the law enforcement response to the Uvalde shooting was a failure.

Director Steven McCraw noted it had been 28 days since the shooting, and there remains much to be done before the investigation is completed and presented to the district attorney.

"However, we do know this: There's compelling evidence that the law enforcement response to the attack at Robb Elementary was an abject failure and antithetical to everything we've learned over the last two decades since the Columbine massacre," McCraw said.
"Three minutes after the subject entered the west building, there was a sufficient number of armed officers wearing body armor to isolate, distract and neutralize the subject. The only thing stopping a hallway of dedicated officers from entering room 111 and 112 was the on-scene commander, who decided to place the lives of officers before the lives of children."
 

Burning Man

Super Anarchist
10,764
2,196
Back to the desert
THe article doesn't say what he thinks it said.

The instant damning of the police in this is something we should come to expect. The Capital police were similarly damned early on.

I feel a kinship with them because I trained to do that myself. I know the "common knowledge" the rule is charge all the time is bullshit, and those who claim that's how they are trained have never seen their training manuals or current procedures. I also know situations may not allow for the person(s) in charge to wait for all the facts before making a call. Drills are formatted specifically to test this, you have to be willing to make a call and live with it.

I imagine myself in that team in the hall. In full knowledge, from being tagged dozens of times in drills, placing my life on the line. Obeyed orders and saw the butchered kids. Went home and woke up the next morning to discover CNN has irrevocably labeled me the worst kind of coward, and any who say different are ostracized for even suggesting there might be more to the story that CNN's valiant reporters know. Can't live in that town again, it would be unfair to my family, who also catch the hell. It's something that sticks. Need a new career no matter how the investigation shakes out because it won't get covered much. It will be months away anyway, and the people of that town will be spitting on ya every chance they get. The people who scream obscenities at police in that town are depicted as fully justified.

Perhaps they were cowards. But we don't know that yet, we just think we do.
That's 100% fair. I think the facts will eventually come out. The early predictions are usually wrong.

And you are correct, I (we) do not know their TTPs or their orders. But I seriously struggle to understand how all those armed and armored cops could stand around that long knowing there was a shitbag inside killing kids. And at least one cop allegedly went in and saved his own kid.

I don't in any way suggest rushing in headlong and blind at the first gunshot. But the growing body of evadents in previous mass shooting lessons learned is: time is of the essence in these situations. That the CBP team finally said "Fuck it" and went in anyway and ended it will likely not look good for the locals.

I don't think the investigation is not going to go well for them. I'm happy to be wrong, but in this case - I don't think so.
 

Burning Man

Super Anarchist
10,764
2,196
Back to the desert
I'm curious why you're so afraid. Carrying at work? That afraid? Get a different job. That afraid at home AND you have a trained attack GS? You a drug dealer or something?
I carry TOO and FROM work. I don't bring them into the buildings. The work thing is because of a very specific threat to folks here due to the nature of the work and the miles of empty highway we commute on. Several years ago, there were middle eastern dudes caught watching the people arriving and leaving base and taking down license numbers.

The home thing? I have a glock in a nightstand safe and I don't even think about it. The GSD is not "attack" trained. He has a ferocious bark, but an intruder would have a 110lb ball of puppy in his lap if he threw a tennis ball for him a couple of times.

Dude, If I were a drug dealer - I'd have a much nicer airplane.
 

Raz'r

Super Anarchist
63,141
5,853
De Nile
I carry TOO and FROM work. I don't bring them into the buildings. The work thing is because of a very specific threat to folks here due to the nature of the work and the miles of empty highway we commute on. Several years ago, there were middle eastern dudes caught watching the people arriving and leaving base and taking down license numbers.

The home thing? I have a glock in a nightstand safe and I don't even think about it. The GSD is not "attack" trained. He has a ferocious bark, but an intruder would have a 110lb ball of puppy in his lap if he threw a tennis ball for him a couple of times.

Dude, If I were a drug dealer - I'd have a much nicer airplane.
Like I said, if you're afraid, do something else. No one forces you to drive the empty highway, loaded with middle-eastern dudes ready to kill you.
 




Top