260 Mass Shootings 160 Days, When Will it be Too Much?

Burning Man

Super Anarchist
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Back to the desert
Let's say there is an organization called the Freighters.   I explain to you that the Freighters have no leadership, no head-quarters, indeed no organization at all.  Furthermore the Freighters have no requirements to join nor is it possible to find out who is a member because, I explain, everyone is a member.  There is no membership card, of course, nor any other indication that you are a Freighter, you just are.  Additionally, the Freighters do not gather. Ever. 

Would you call the Freighters a "well-organized" group? 
You're getting wrapped up around the "well-regulated" bit in the preamble - as does everyone else.  Alex Hamilton made it very clear in his writings in Fed 29 that having a "well organized and trained militia" that drilled often was more of an aspirational goal than it was set in stone as a limiter.  Because just like now, people had other lives back then and it would be hard to expect them to drill regularly enough to be at the same level as an active duty army guy.  Just having them armed was enough and they could show up when called up by the state bearing arms they themselves supplied and could get up to speed fairly quickly.  

Interestingly, the UKR experience has pretty much born out that that is not a limiting factor in being able to defend your homeland.  Young and old men and women who have probably never held an AK-47 in their lives all lined up for a crash course in small arms training in the days before and immediately after Russia attacked.  And the UKR militia of citizens who never worn a uniform before seem to be doing quite well at kicking a massive modern army's ass.

 

Ishmael

52,344
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You're getting wrapped up around the "well-regulated" bit in the preamble - as does everyone else.  Alex Hamilton made it very clear in his writings in Fed 29 that having a "well organized and trained militia" that drilled often was more of an aspirational goal than it was set in stone as a limiter.  Because just like now, people had other lives back then and it would be hard to expect them to drill regularly enough to be at the same level as an active duty army guy.  Just having them armed was enough and they could show up when called up by the state bearing arms they themselves supplied and could get up to speed fairly quickly.  

Interestingly, the UKR experience has pretty much born out that that is not a limiting factor in being able to defend your homeland.  Young and old men and women who have probably never held an AK-47 in their lives all lined up for a crash course in small arms training in the days before and immediately after Russia attacked.  And the UKR militia of citizens who never worn a uniform before seem to be doing quite well at kicking a massive modern army's ass.
Sure, Jeff.

 

Fakenews

Super Anarchist
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Turns out the Border Patrol was disgusted by the inaction of the SWAT team said fuck it and went in themselves.


 

Burning Man

Super Anarchist
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Back to the desert
And well-regulated doesn't mean "regulated" in the modern sense.  It means "training and standardization".  So, the first part of the amendment cannot be used as a justification for regulation, and actually can't be used as a justification for "training and standardization" because that is too hard. 

Do I have this right?   I want to make sure I correctly define the part of the amendment that is ignored. 

(I've really got a hankering right now for Pentecostal Tom to dig up something I said 10 or 15 years ago on this.)
The part of the amendment that deals with organized and trained militias is a preamble.  It is not the operative clause.  Furthermore, one of the guys who actually WROTE the amendment gave his interpretation here:

By a curious refinement upon the spirit of republican jealousy, we are even taught to apprehend danger from the militia itself, in the hands of the federal government. It is observed that select corps may be formed, composed of the young and ardent, who may be rendered subservient to the views of arbitrary power. What plan for the regulation of the militia may be pursued by the national government, is impossible to be foreseen. But so far from viewing the matter in the same light with those who object to select corps as dangerous, were the Constitution ratified, and were I to deliver my sentiments to a member of the federal legislature from this State on the subject of a militia establishment, I should hold to him, in substance, the following discourse:

"The project of disciplining all the militia of the United States is as futile as it would be injurious, if it were capable of being carried into execution. A tolerable expertness in military movements is a business that requires time and practice. It is not a day, or even a week, that will suffice for the attainment of it. To oblige the great body of the yeomanry, and of the other classes of the citizens, to be under arms for the purpose of going through military exercises and evolutions, as often as might be necessary to acquire the degree of perfection which would entitle them to the character of a well-regulated militia, would be a real grievance to the people, and a serious public inconvenience and loss. It would form an annual deduction from the productive labor of the country, to an amount which, calculating upon the present numbers of the people, would not fall far short of the whole expense of the civil establishments of all the States. To attempt a thing which would abridge the mass of labor and industry to so considerable an extent, would be unwise: and the experiment, if made, could not succeed, because it would not long be endured. Little more can reasonably be aimed at, with respect to the people at large, than to have them properly armed and equipped; and in order to see that this be not neglected, it will be necessary to assemble them once or twice in the course of a year.

"But though the scheme of disciplining the whole nation must be abandoned as mischievous or impracticable; yet it is a matter of the utmost importance that a well-digested plan should, as soon as possible, be adopted for the proper establishment of the militia. The attention of the government ought particularly to be directed to the formation of a select corps of moderate extent, upon such principles as will really fit them for service in case of need. By thus circumscribing the plan, it will be possible to have an excellent body of well-trained militia, ready to take the field whenever the defense of the State shall require it. This will not only lessen the call for military establishments, but if circumstances should at any time oblige the government to form an army of any magnitude that army can never be formidable to the liberties of the people while there is a large body of citizens, little, if at all, inferior to them in discipline and the use of arms, who stand ready to defend their own rights and those of their fellow-citizens. This appears to me the only substitute that can be devised for a standing army, and the best possible security against it, if it should exist.''
One need not IMAGINE what the FF's were thinking when you can read their actual reasonings and logic about why they wrote it the way they did.   

 
You're getting wrapped up around the "well-regulated" bit in the preamble - as does everyone else.  Alex Hamilton made it very clear in his writings in Fed 29 that having a "well organized and trained militia" that drilled often was more of an aspirational goal than it was set in stone as a limiter.  Because just like now, people had other lives back then and it would be hard to expect them to drill regularly enough to be at the same level as an active duty army guy.  Just having them armed was enough and they could show up when called up by the state bearing arms they themselves supplied and could get up to speed fairly quickly.  

Interestingly, the UKR experience has pretty much born out that that is not a limiting factor in being able to defend your homeland.  Young and old men and women who have probably never held an AK-47 in their lives all lined up for a crash course in small arms training in the days before and immediately after Russia attacked.  And the UKR militia of citizens who never worn a uniform before seem to be doing quite well at kicking a massive modern army's ass.
Ukraine's at war. 

America has a general population of highly armed out of control child killing gun nuts.

See the difference?

I sure fucking hope so....

 

badlatitude

Super Anarchist
30,280
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You're getting wrapped up around the "well-regulated" bit in the preamble - as does everyone else.  Alex Hamilton made it very clear in his writings in Fed 29 that having a "well organized and trained militia" that drilled often was more of an aspirational goal than it was set in stone as a limiter.  Because just like now, people had other lives back then and it would be hard to expect them to drill regularly enough to be at the same level as an active duty army guy.  Just having them armed was enough and they could show up when called up by the state bearing arms they themselves supplied and could get up to speed fairly quickly.  

Interestingly, the UKR experience has pretty much born out that that is not a limiting factor in being able to defend your homeland.  Young and old men and women who have probably never held an AK-47 in their lives all lined up for a crash course in small arms training in the days before and immediately after Russia attacked.  And the UKR militia of citizens who never worn a uniform before seem to be doing quite well at kicking a massive modern army's ass.
I'm afraid that you are lost in a fantasy if you think America would resemble the Ukraine in any way if we suddenly had an urgent need to fight a war. Any chance for disciplined organization is lost in this country. Too many people want to be in charge, and the number one killer of battle is disorganization. Besides, the United States would never arm or resupply its own citizens, that's why we have a military. Ukraine trained for 15 years prior to battle, Americans lose interest after 15 minutes. The only thing the vast majority of citizens know is how to defend their own property. Sure, a lot of people here are disciplined shooters, that and a rose will get you a grave marker.

Whatever Hamilton professed in Fed 29 disappeared when the court ruled in Heller. You have a right to gun ownership unrelated to membership in a militia. Heller also made sure that it was not an unlimited right, and that guns could be subject to extensive government regulation.

 

Clove Hitch

Halyard licker
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around and about
The article I read, the Daily Beast link which you posted above, says it was sporadic fire "at the door". Didn't you read it??
In your attempt to plug the blue wall you've got your head in the sand.  What do you make of the Border patrol going in because they were disgusted by the inaction of the craven cops?

 

Mark_K

Super Anarchist
In your attempt to plug the blue wall you've got your head in the sand.  What do you make of the Border patrol going in because they were disgusted by the inaction of the craven cops?
Ad-hominem to distract from the point? I had thought better of you. Explaining isn't advocacy. I take all information from un-named sources with a grain of salt. Wait for the real investigation to sort out the BS. 

 
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Lark

Supper Anarchist
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1,685
Ohio
The part of the amendment that deals with organized and trained militias is a preamble.  It is not the operative clause.  Furthermore, one of the guys who actually WROTE the amendment gave his interpretation here:

One need not IMAGINE what the FF's were thinking when you can read their actual reasonings and logic about why they wrote it the way they did.   
Mr. Hamilton did not speak as a uniform voice of the founders, but as a voice for adoption of a flawed and controversial constitution.    He certainly can’t speak for the present.    He wanted the military to be so weak it needed a bunch of citizen soldiers to save its butt in battle.   His primary concern, as I read your quote, is that enough people with guns exist to disband the dreaded standing army and send them on to productive work.   That means we need adequate weapons, such as IEDs, aircraft, missiles, to face down and defeat the military per Mr. Hamilton.  
Drones and aircraft should require less license or restrictions of operation then guns, considering their greater strategic value.  

The 2A, both phrases, was an add on.   The primary discussion of militias, article I sec 8,  is the need for congressional oversight.    

 
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Mrleft8

Super Anarchist
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Suwanee River
The stupid is always strongest when the indefensible happens.

Alexander Hamilton had no way of knowing what would happen 200 years later. Quoting his comments on the 2nd amendment is like quoting Nostradamus on the fall of the Soviet union. PURE FUCKING BULLSHIT!

19 cops in the hallway, outside of 2 classrooms where 19 little kids, and two young adults were murdered..... for between 30 minutes to almost an hour.

 This is not about cowardly cops. This is not about a deranged kid with guns.

 THIS IS ABOUT THE ABILITY OF THE KID TO GET THE GUNS!

 If he had a muzzle loading flint lock, this never would have happened. Alexander Hamilton could have ridden his fucking horse to Texas before 21 people were killed in a school back in the day when the 2nd was written. The 2nd amendment no longer has any relevance in modern society.

 

Lark

Supper Anarchist
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Ohio
It seems logical the police response to an active shooter should be one of containment:    Prevent escape and let the citizens battle it out.    Thus schools should be built with defensive niches enabling fields of fire designed to control corridors and the ever important cafeteria.  Interior walls must be reinforced to stop small arms fire.   Old schools with ceramic tile need to be razed and replaced to reduce shrapnel.    Playground equipment should be replaced with combat gear, and the kids allowed to train daily.   Rain days allow them to bring their practice indoors, where they can stage tactical retreats and counterattack.   I’d suggest tear gas, but we all know masks are bad.    

 
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Steam Flyer

Sophisticated Yet Humble
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You're getting wrapped up around the "well-regulated" bit in the preamble - as does everyone else.  Alex Hamilton made it very clear in his writings in Fed 29....
Sure, Jeff.
Jeff is getting wrapped up around The Federalist Papers which are not, and have never been, actual law. They were editorials from a partisan slant, intended to persuade voters.

The fact that they seem all intelligent and legalistic n'shit nowadays just goes to show how fucking hopeless our democracy has become.

- DSK

 




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