260 Mass Shootings 160 Days, When Will it be Too Much?

[Burning Man]

border patrol goons

Border patrol "goons"???  You mean the ones who actually DID go in and end this?  Goons, really?

 

[badlatitude]

This runs into questions of enforceability with the modular platform. A 10 round magazine for one caliber might be identical to a 30 round for another. It's one of the more common workarounds currently.

Oh, you lose the choice, you buy what they tell you to buy. They can do the same for semi autos also.

 

[badlatitude]

[No message]

 

[giegs]

Oh, you lose the choice, you buy what they tell you to buy. They can do the same for semi autos also.

I appreciate the intention, just pointing out a hurdle.

 

[Ease the sheet.]

Why is there still an argument?

 

[The Main Man]

What a surprise…


Mass shootings a reason to arm, not disarm - Trump


https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/world-us-canada-61614746

 

[Se7en]

I honestly don't know.  There are a LOT of them out in the wild and yes there are the poseurs who buy them for the cool factor, unfortunately.  But I'm not sure what the point of the question is, though.  What are you getting at?  How is the amount to training relevant to some psycho shooting up a school?

The theory put forward was that the psycho's are not the same people who have the discipline to get training in proper use of firearms, and keep that current through regular time at the range. The corollorary to that theory is that if a potential nutter does turn up at a range, there is a chance that being surrounded by responsible shooters might get that person to not be a nutter with a gun. The hitherto unspoken second corollorary is that if the nutter is at a range when he tries to go nuts with a gun, you probably wouldn't need to wait for a hour before someone else took out the nutter.

So what I was getting at was - only let competant and current people have guns. Enforce the 'well regulated militia' bit. Even Hamilton said that the militia should be called out once or twice a year.

 

[sparau]

I am surprised at the blame the cops rhetoric, he had body armour and semi autos, the cops initially at the scene had what?  Crappy 38 snub pistols and a cotton shirt?

What is the reasoning behind anyone being able to buy body armour?  How does it help you hunting?  Or is it just the 'self defence' line of insanity?

 

[Pertinacious Tom]

What is the reasoning behind anyone being able to buy body armour?

What is the reasoning behind cops being able to buy it? Just the self-defense line of insanity?

 

[Jules]

Clearly, you miss the point of term limits!

Clearly you missed the point politicians will never vote in favor of it..  The only way to limit the terms of these blood suckers is to vote them out.

 

[Jules]

What is the reasoning behind anyone being able to buy body armour?

What is the reasoning behind cops being able to buy it?

Wow!  Great point!  If we got all the guns off the street, cops wouldn't need body armor.  And think of all the money we'd save.  We could use it to remove the prison-like conditions in schools across the country.

Thanks for supporting wholesale gun confiscation.  Great idea!

 

[Sol Rosenberg]

 

[Jules]

View attachment 512099

One shoe incident forever changed air travel.  Yet hundreds of innocent children being senselessly mowed down in a gun crazed country hasn't moved the needle an inch.

 

[Steam Flyer]

I honestly don't know.  There are a LOT of them out in the wild and yes there are the poseurs who buy them for the cool factor, unfortunately.  But I'm not sure what the point of the question is, though.  What are you getting at?  How is the amount to training relevant to some psycho shooting up a school?

Look, whether you like it or not - the AR style platform has become the new Rem 700.  It's ubiquitous among ALL shooting disciplines.  Hunters have embraced it bigly.  And NOT because they can spray rounds at deer.  It's because it's an inherently accurate, lightweight, and versatile platform.  It's the Lego gun, jack of all trades - master of most.  It's highly customizable both in caliber and configuration.  So it appeals to a huge range of users across almost all use cases.  It's a great hunting weapon as a well as a great home defense weapon.  It's easy to shoot, has low recoil even in bigger calibers, and easy to master very quickly.  

So good luck disarming all those hunters, competition shooters and just plinkers out there who chose the AR platform as a multi-discipline, multi-use weapon.  For all the reasons the military has a love/hate relationship w/ the design that they can't walk away from (despite trying over and over) - the civilian world has embraced it.  

blah blah blah

You love it because it's in those Rambo-esque movies, and so you see a plethora of virtues that may or may not exist. And that would be fine if it weren't for killing people.

But really, why do so many mass-produced sailboats have cast-iron bolt-on fin keels? Because it lends itself to mass production. Is it a good configuration? It has some good points (not the cast-iron). Same-o same-o... you love the AR-15 because it's ubiquitously manly, and it's ubiquitous because it's profitable to manufacture in mass quantity.

The theory put forward was that the psycho's are not the same people who have the discipline to get training in proper use of firearms, and keep that current through regular time at the range. The corollorary to that theory is that if a potential nutter does turn up at a range, there is a chance that being surrounded by responsible shooters might get that person to not be a nutter with a gun. The hitherto unspoken second corollorary is that if the nutter is at a range when he tries to go nuts with a gun, you probably wouldn't need to wait for a hour before someone else took out the nutter.

So what I was getting at was - only let competant and current people have guns. Enforce the 'well regulated militia' bit. Even Hamilton said that the militia should be called out once or twice a year.

excellently said.

- DSK

 

[Gangbusters]

You're getting wrapped up around the "well-regulated" bit in the preamble - as does everyone else.  Alex Hamilton made it very clear in his writings in Fed 29 that having a "well organized and trained militia" that drilled often was more of an aspirational goal than it was set in stone as a limiter.  Because just like now, people had other lives back then and it would be hard to expect them to drill regularly enough to be at the same level as an active duty army guy.  Just having them armed was enough and they could show up when called up by the state bearing arms they themselves supplied and could get up to speed fairly quickly.  

Interestingly, the UKR experience has pretty much born out that that is not a limiting factor in being able to defend your homeland.  Young and old men and women who have probably never held an AK-47 in their lives all lined up for a crash course in small arms training in the days before and immediately after Russia attacked.  And the UKR militia of citizens who never worn a uniform before seem to be doing quite well at kicking a massive modern army's ass.

Ok then, keep your gun locked up until you are called upon by the state. Which you and I know would probably be never.

 

[Clove Hitch]

I am surprised at the blame the cops rhetoric, he had body armour and semi autos, the cops initially at the scene had what?  Crappy 38 snub pistols and a cotton shirt?

What is the reasoning behind anyone being able to buy body armour?  How does it help you hunting?  Or is it just the 'self defence' line of insanity?

This isn't 1972.  Cops have been militarized.  They wear body armor, they have shotguns in their cars.   How many cops does it take to put down an untrained teenager?  10? 20? 100?

The more info that comes out the more cowardly they seem.  The cops had SWAT on scene, including 3 with armored shields and they still didn't go in to save kids who were bleeding out.  

 

[badlatitude]

What is the reasoning behind cops being able to buy it? Just the self-defense line of insanity?

Because cops know the damage an assault weapon can cause.

It’s possible to argue about everything when it comes to the politics of guns---including about the definition of “assault rifle” itself---but it’s harder to argue about physics. So let's consider the physics of an AR-15. 

A bullet with more energy can do more damage. Its total kinetic energy is equal to one-half the mass of the bullet times its velocity squared. The bullet from a handgun is---as absurd as it may sound---slow compared to that from an AR-15. It can be stopped by the thick bone of the upper leg. It might pass through the body, only to become lodged in skin, which is surprisingly elastic. 

The bullet from an AR-15 does an entirely different kind of violence to the human body. It’s relatively small, but it leaves the muzzle at three times the speed of a handgun bullet. It has so much energy that it can disintegrate three inches of leg bone. “It would just turn it to dust,” says Donald Jenkins, a trauma surgeon at University of Texas Health Science Center at San Antonio. If it hits the liver, “the liver looks like a jello mold that’s been dropped on the floor.” And the exit wound can be a nasty, jagged hole the size of an orange. 

These high-velocity bullets can damage flesh inches away from their path, either because they fragment or because they cause something called cavitation. When you trail your fingers through water, the water ripples and curls. When a high-velocity bullet pierces the body, human tissues ripples as well---but much more violently. The bullet from an AR-15 might miss the femoral artery in the leg, but cavitation may burst the artery anyway, causing death by blood loss. A swath of stretched and torn tissue around the wound may die. That’s why, says Rhee, a handgun wound might require only one surgery but an AR-15 bullet wound might require three to ten.

https://www.wired.com/2016/06/ar-15-can-human-body/

 

[sparau]

This isn't 1972.  Cops have been militarized.  They wear body armor, they have shotguns in their cars.   How many cops does it take to put down an untrained teenager?  10? 20? 100?

The more info that comes out the more cowardly they seem.  The cops had SWAT on scene, including 3 with armored shields and they still didn't go in to save kids who were bleeding out.  

Ok.  So there is now an arms race between the public and the police?  Side note: semi auto vs shotgun, situational which is better and isn't the asshole kinda in the drivers seat as to where the conflict will play out at least for the first police person?

Seems to me it wouldn't be a fun job for pretty shite money.  I struggle to understand where their heads will be after just witnessing this, let alone now everyone saying they are at fault.

As to how many cops does it take, are you asking how many it is ok to have die?  It only takes 1 cop with perhaps some luck of course to have stopped it.

 

[Sol Rosenberg]

[No message]

 

[sparau]

What is the reasoning behind cops being able to buy it? Just the self-defense line of insanity?

It's their job?

Is there some kind of union agreement regarding the maximum number of times you risk your life for your $25 / hour?

My personal choice is fucking zero times per hour and if I was to be a cop I'd hope the society I was working for wanted to tip the scales in my favour for that.