40mile course?

Should there be long courses in the 34th AC?


  • Total voters
    55

luminary

Anarchist
714
54
The AC in the recent past has primarily been about 'short' course bouy racing. Yet in the 33rd we saw 20mile legs as dictated by the DOG - why not have some of these in the 34th? It will add a dimension to the design that I believe would round out the boats a little and also provide a greater opportunity for dramatic s&*^t to happen.

Good idea?

 
The AC in the recent past has primarily been about 'short' course bouy racing. Yet in the 33rd we saw 20mile legs as dictated by the DOG - why not have some of these in the 34th? It will add a dimension to the design that I believe would round out the boats a little and also provide a greater opportunity for dramatic s&*^t to happen.

 

Good idea?
IT IS A GREAT IDEA AND WILL HAVE THE BOATS BE MORE D OF G COMPLIANT

PER GLS INTENT

CHEERS MSP

 

SimonN

Super Anarchist
10,530
749
Sydney ex London
IT IS A GREAT IDEA AND WILL HAVE THE BOATS BE MORE D OF G COMPLIANT

PER GLS INTENT

CHEERS MSP
It was not GLS's intent. It is clear that mutual consent was his intent and many believe that the terms he dictated if MC couldn't be reached were there as a deterent.

In my opinion, long courses lead to bad match racing, raising the chances of a procession and reducing the excitement resulting from mark roundings. In fact, it seems that the shorter the courses, the more exciting and better the match racing becomes. 20 mile legs simply turn the event into a speed one and allow for far too much seperation to make the event exciting.

 
IT IS A GREAT IDEA AND WILL HAVE THE BOATS BE MORE D OF G COMPLIANT

PER GLS INTENT

CHEERS MSP
It was not GLS's intent. It is clear that mutual consent was his intent and many believe that the terms he dictated if MC couldn't be reached were there as a deterent.

In my opinion, long courses lead to bad match racing, raising the chances of a procession and reducing the excitement resulting from mark roundings. In fact, it seems that the shorter the courses, the more exciting and better the match racing becomes. 20 mile legs simply turn the event into a speed one and allow for far too much seperation to make the event exciting.
WELL YOUR OPINION DOESNT OR ISNT CONSIDERED BY GLS

READ IT AGAIN

AS HE HAD ACTUALLY AFFIRMED BY HIS WORDS AND SIGNED AND HE DIDNT-- ''DICTATED'' ANYTHING

EQIU TRI 39 MILES SO 40 MILES IS DOABLE --EACH AT 13.333 KN WILL FORM EQ LAT TRI AS GLS SET FORTH

40 KN GREAT IDEA AND SO IS 39 KN PER GLS

This Deed of Gift, made the twenty-fourth day of October, one thousand eight hundred and eighty-seven, between George L. Schuyler as the sole surviving owner of the Cup won by the yacht AMERICA at Cowes, England, on the twenty-second day of August, one thousand eight hundred and fifty-one, of the first part, and the New York Yacht Club, of the second part, as amended by an order of the Supreme Court of the State of New York dated December 17, 1956, and April 5, 1985.WITNESSETH That the said party of the first part, for and in consideration of the premises and of the performance of the conditions and agreements hereinafter set forth by the party of the second part, has granted, bargained, sold, assigned, transferred and set over, and by these present does grant, bargain, sell, assign, transfer, and set over, unto said party of the second part, its successors and assigns, the Cup won by the schooner yacht AMERICA, at Cowes, England, upon the twenty-second day of August, 1851. To have and to hold the same to the said party of the second part, its successors and assigns, Page 17, Paragraph 2, in trust, NEVERTHELESS, for the following uses and purposes:

 

This Cup is donated upon the conditions that it shall be preserved as a perpetual Challenge Cup for friendly competition between foreign countries.

 

Any organized Yacht Club of a foreign country, incorporated, patented, or licensed by the legislature, admiralty, or other executive department, having for its annual regatta on ocean water course on the sea, or on an arm of the sea, or one which combines both, shall always be entitled to the right of sailing a match for this Cup, with a yacht or vessel propelled by sails only and constructed in the country to which the Challenging Club belongs, against any one yacht or vessel constructed in the country of the Club holding the Cup.

 

The competing yachts or vessels, if of one mast, shall be not less than forty-four feet nor more than ninety feet on the load water-line; if of more than one mast they shall be not less than eighty feet nor more than one hundred and fifteen feet on the load water-line.

 

The Challenging Club shall give ten months' notice, in writing, naming the days for the proposed races; but no race shall be sailed in the days intervening between November 1st and May 1st if the races are to be concluded in the Northern Hemisphere, and no race shall be sailed in the days intervening between May 1st and November 1st if the races are to be concluded in the Southern Hemisphere. Accompanying the ten months' notice of challenge there must be sent the name of the owner and a certificate of the name, rig and following dimensions of the challenging vessel, namely, length on load water-line; beam at load water-line and extreme beam; and draught of water; which dimensions shall not be exceeded; and a custom-house registry of the vessel must also be sent as soon as possible. Center-board or sliding keel vessels shall always be allowed to compete in any race for this Cup, and no restriction nor limitation whatever shall be placed upon the use of such center-board or sliding keel, nor shall the center-board or sliding keel be considered a part of the vessel for any purposes of measurement.

 

The Club challenging for the Cup and the Club holding the same may, by mutual consent, make any arrangement satisfactory to both as to the dates, courses, number of trials, rules and sailing regulations, and any and all other conditions of the match, in which case also the ten months' notice may be waived.

 

In case the parties cannot mutually agree upon the terms of a match, then three races shall be sailed, and the winner of two of such races shall be entitled to the Cup. All such races shall be on ocean courses, free from headlands, as follows: The first race, twenty nautical miles to windward and return;

 

 

the second race an equilateral triangular race of thirty-nine nautical miles,

 

 

the first side of which shall be a beat to windward; the third race (if necessary) twenty nautical miles to windward and return; and one week day shall intervene between the conclusion of one race and the starting of the next race. These ocean courses shall be practicable in all parts for vessels of twenty-two feet draught of water, and shall be selected by the Club holding the Cup; and these races shall be sailed subject to its rules and sailing regulations so far as the same do not conflict with the provisions of this deed of gift, but without any times allowances whatever. The challenged Club shall not be required to name its representative vessel until at a time agreed upon for the start, but the vessel when named must compete in all the races, and each of such races must be completed within seven hours.

 

Should the Club holding the Cup be for any cause dissolved, the Cup shall be transferred to some Club of the same nationality, eligible the challenge under this deed of gift, in trust and subject to its provisions. In the event of the failure of such transfer within three months after such dissolution, such Cup shall revert to the preceding Club holding the same, and under the terms of this deed of gift. It is distinctly understood that the Cup is to be the property of the Club subject to the provisions of this deed, and not the property of the owner or owners of any vessel winning a match.

 

No vessel which has been defeated in a match for this Cup can be again selected by any Club as its representative until after a contest for it by some other vessel has intervened, or until after the expiration of two years from the time of such defeat. And when a challenge from a Club fulfilling all the conditions required by this instrument has been received, no other challenge can be considered until the pending event has been decided.

 

AND, the said party of the second part hereby accepts the said Cup subject to the said trust, terms, and conditions, and hereby covenants and agrees to and with said party of the first part that it will faithfully and fully see that the foregoing conditions are fully observed and complied with by any contestant for the said Cup during the holding thereof by it; and that it will assign, transfer, and deliver the said Cup to the foreign Yacht Club whose representative yacht shall have won the same in accordance with the foregoing terms and conditions, provided the said foreign Club shall, by instrument in writing lawfully executed, enter with said part of the second part into the like covenants as are herein entered into by it, such instrument to contain a like provision for the successive assignees to enter into the same covenants with their respective assignors, and to be executed in duplicate, one to be retained by each Club, and a copy thereof to be forwarded to the said party of the second part.

 

IN WITNESS WHEREOF, the party of the first part has hereunto set his hand and seal, and the said party of the second part has caused its corporate seal to be affixed to these presents and the same to be signed by its Commodore and attested by its Secretary, the day and year first above written.

 

GEORGE L. SCHUYLER, (L.S.)

THE NEW YORK YACHT CLUB

by Elbridge T. Gerry, Commodore

John H. Bird, Secretary

In the presence of H. D. Hamilton

(Seal of the New York Yacht Club)

 

 

timminoggy

Anarchist
600
0
WELL YOUR OPINION DOESNT OR ISNT CONSIDERED BY GLS

READ IT AGAIN

AS HE HAD ACTUALLY AFFIRMED BY HIS WORDS AND SIGNED AND HE DIDNT-- ''DICTATED'' ANYTHING

EQIU TRI 39 MILES SO 40 MILES IS DOABLE --EACH AT 13.333 KN WILL FORM EQ LAT TRI AS GLS SET FORTH

40 KN GREAT IDEA AND SO IS 39 KN PER GLS

The key words in the Deed are:

In case the parties cannot mutually agree upon the terms of a match, then three races shall be sailed, and the winner of two of such races shall be entitled to the Cup. All such races shall be on ocean courses, free from headlands, etc.

Mutual consent allows the Defender and CoR to set whatever courses they like, so please stop rabbiting on about Deed compliance when you have no clue what it means.

 
WELL YOUR OPINION DOESNT OR ISNT CONSIDERED BY GLS

READ IT AGAIN

AS HE HAD ACTUALLY AFFIRMED BY HIS WORDS AND SIGNED AND HE DIDNT-- ''DICTATED'' ANYTHING

EQIU TRI 39 MILES SO 40 MILES IS DOABLE --EACH AT 13.333 KN WILL FORM EQ LAT TRI AS GLS SET FORTH

40 KN GREAT IDEA AND SO IS 39 KN PER GLS

The key words in the Deed are:

In case the parties cannot mutually agree upon the terms of a match, then three races shall be sailed, and the winner of two of such races shall be entitled to the Cup. All such races shall be on ocean courses, free from headlands, etc.

Mutual consent allows the Defender and CoR to set whatever courses they like, so please stop rabbiting on about Deed compliance when you have no clue what it means.
GARGLE BOY

YOU SELECTED THE WRONG POINT AND WORDS DUMBASS MAY IS NOT A DIRECTIVE ITS A CHOICE --DUMBASS

PARA BEFORE YOUR SPEWING LISTERINE - READ AND WEEP

''The Club challenging for the Cup and the Club holding the same may, by mutual consent, make any arrangement satisfactory to both as to the dates, courses, number of trials, rules and sailing regulations, and any and all other conditions of the match, in which case also the ten months' notice may be waived.

 
MANY 30 MILE RUNS

SEE OLD EXHIBIT

AC NYYC 1895 21345.JPG

 

SimonN

Super Anarchist
10,530
749
Sydney ex London
MSP

You really do miss the point regularly. While you are right that "may" doesn't compel them to reach mutual consent, the wording is very clear that mutual consent is the first option and only if it cannot be reached that the default consitions come into play. This is why it say

In case the parties cannot mutually agree upon the terms of a match
To mean your interpretation, the DOG would have first stated the default terms of the match and then say that those terms could be changed by mutual consent. However, it did not say that.

In addition, the stipulated courses are mandatory only where mutual consent is not reached. The DOG is very specific on that. We know it because of 2 different sections. First

The Club challenging for the Cup and the Club holding the same may, by mutual consent, make any arrangement satisfactory to both as to the dates, courses, number of trials, rules and sailing regulations............
Next it later states

In case the parties cannot mutually agree upon the terms of a match, then three races shall be sailed, and the winner of two of such races shall be entitled to the Cup. All such races shall be on ocean courses, free from headlands, as follows...
The phrase "all such races" refers to the previous sentence, not the whole document.
 

Chris 249

Super Anarchist
5,238
0
IT IS A GREAT IDEA AND WILL HAVE THE BOATS BE MORE D OF G COMPLIANT

PER GLS INTENT

CHEERS MSP
It was not GLS's intent. It is clear that mutual consent was his intent and many believe that the terms he dictated if MC couldn't be reached were there as a deterent.

In my opinion, long courses lead to bad match racing, raising the chances of a procession and reducing the excitement resulting from mark roundings. In fact, it seems that the shorter the courses, the more exciting and better the match racing becomes. 20 mile legs simply turn the event into a speed one and allow for far too much seperation to make the event exciting.
WELL YOUR OPINION DOESNT OR ISNT CONSIDERED BY GLS

READ IT AGAIN

AS HE HAD ACTUALLY AFFIRMED BY HIS WORDS AND SIGNED AND HE DIDNT-- ''DICTATED'' ANYTHING

EQIU TRI 39 MILES SO 40 MILES IS DOABLE --EACH AT 13.333 KN WILL FORM EQ LAT TRI AS GLS SET FORTH

40 KN GREAT IDEA AND SO IS 39 KN PER GLS

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AArrrghh and Simon are right. George L Schuyler, and the committee of the NYYC who drafted the Deed of Gift, clearly intended that the America's Cup be governed by mutual consent, with the DoG provisions only as a default. That applies to courses too.

To take a contemporary source;

As early as May 1888, just a few months after the DoG was adopted, the NYYC made a special resolution binding itself to accept a challenge under the rules of the previous three challenges, therefore effectively walking away from the DoG default provisions almost as soon as they had been released.

And Schuyler's emphasis in passing the Deed is clear. As the NY Times of Oct 19 1890 put it, "A few weeks before his death Mr George L. Schuyler told a TIMES representative that in accepting the present document his special aim was to provide for open courses for races, to be sailed without time allowances, and with a centreboard boat to race in case the parties could not mutually agree upon the conditions of the matches. The dimension clause, in Mr Schuyler's opinion, was a secondary matter..." There you are - Schuyler said the default provisions were there JUST IN CASE THERE COULD BE NO MC.

The negotiations about the first challenge under the new DoG clearly showed that the NYYC believed that mutual consent, not being "DoG compliant", was the priority. This was demonstrated in the NYYC's July 16 1889 letter to Dunraven, which assured him that the DoG defaults could be varied by MC. It's interesting to note that the British reply of June 7 1889 said that "the NYYC appears to hold that all the conditions laid down in the new deed may be waived", which confirms what the NYYC was telling the only potential challenger of the time. The Brits actually showed concern that the NYYC may be going too far in its belief that MC, not the DoG, was the vital matter.

Further evidence that Schuyler's belief that MC was the key (rather than the DoG default) was shared by the club itself can be found in the NYT of Jan 3 1891. "There is no question that the sentiment of the leading men of the club (ie the NYYC) is in favour of not enforcing the demand of the deed for dimensions of a challenging vessel, thus acting under the "mutual consent" clause, and Lieut Henn says he should think this concession is all that is necessary to insure a challenge". (My emphasis) So once again, we have evidence that the NYYC were walking away from the DoG defaults and towards MC.

Even more significant is the NYT account of Dec 7 1892. This asserts noted that the NYYC AC committee initially believed that MC only applied to the "conditions of the match", not the dimensions clause and other parts of the DOG. However, the hugely influential Gen Paine (of whom, the Oct 19 piece said, everyone in the NYYC was waiting to give an opinion or take action) convinced them that everything could be varied under MC. Paine was not only the owner of the previous defenders, but one of the five men who wrote the DoG.

So;

The NYYC told challengers that MC was the key with the default provision just that - mere defaults;

Challengers actually thought the NYYC's interpretation of what could be varied under MC went too far. They didn't think the NYYC was trying to go DoG compliant, they thought they were going too far from compliance.

Schuyler said that MC was the key with the default provisions just that - defaults.

The top owner and a member of the committee that wrote the DoG said that everything could be varied under MC, even when it went against DoG provisions.

Dunno what more evidence we could want than the thoughts of Schuyler, Paine, the NYYC and Dunraven????????

 
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Chris 249

Super Anarchist
5,238
0
Oh, and some more information.

"The matter which I thought of greatest importance when the new deed was drawn up was that of courses. I wanted it so arranged that in case of a disagreement as to the conditions of the races, the boats would race on the sea without time allowance, and thus avoid the possibility of a challenger being left to the mercy of a club course, where she would not have an equal chance to win."

The speaker? George L himself, May 13 1890, quoted in the NY Times of the following day.

So the DoG default provisions about courses were NOT so intended to cause them to be long, but to ensure equal racing IF there was a failure to reach mutual consent.

You're wrong, Mahguah, according to the man himself.

 
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Tony-F18

Super Anarchist
2,402
0
+31
I agreed with the original poster, until I saw that MSP also agreed, at which point I reconsidered.

 
Oh, and some more information.

"The matter which I thought of greatest importance when the new deed was drawn up was that of courses. I wanted it so arranged that in case of a disagreement as to the conditions of the races, the boats would race on the sea without time allowance, and thus avoid the possibility of a challenger being left to the mercy of a club course, where she would not have an equal chance to win."

The speaker? George L himself, May 13 1890, quoted in the NY Times of the following day.

So the DoG default provisions about courses were NOT so intended to cause them to be long, but to ensure equal racing IF there was a failure to reach mutual consent.

 

You're wrong, Mahguah, according to the man himself.

LONG IS NOT 39 MILES SO GLS INTENDED THEM TO BE AT SEA AND NOT SOME REGATTA MINI COURSE

AND EQUAL MEANS BALANCED TO HAVE THE BOATS BEST POINTS USED

REMEMBER THESE WERE PILOT BOATS -FAST WORK BOATS THAT THEY WERE DEVELOPING

SO I AM NOT WRONG

ALL OF YOU NEED TO LOOK AT THE HISTORIC DOCUMENTATION

ALL GOOD POSTS THANKS BACK TO THE POINT OF THE THREAD IS THERE WERE LONG RACES EVEN UNDER MC UNDER GLS

MY POINT IS AND MOST HAVE MISSED IT WHICH HAPPENS REGULARLY

LONG RACES [ BY YOU POSTERS STANDARDS] [ NOT GLS ] ARE WITHIN THE D OF G AND SO GREAT

THE CONTEXT OF THE D OF G AND ITS COMPLETENESS PRIOR TO NYSC BUTCHERY OF IT

GLS WANTED BOATS TO SAIL ON THEIR OWN BOTTOMS

SO HOW FRGING LONG WAS THAT THOUSANDS OF MILES

JUST TO RACE

SO I SEE IT IN THE LIGHT OF THE DAYS AS IT WAS INTENDED AND DEEDED TO BE

I AM SEEING THAT ALL OF A SUDDEN ALL YOU THAT COUNTER ME THINK THE DEED RACES ARE LONG

YOUR ALL COMPARING WHAT IS LONG

NOT YOUR CHOICE

LOOK AT NYYC RACE DATA AGAIN I POST IT SEE MILES UNDER DEED OR MC 30 MILE AVG COURSES

BUT THANKS FOR THE EXCHANGE AND I RESPECT ALL OF YOUR OPINIONS AS THEY APPLY DIFF THINKING AND

ARE FROM AC BENEFICIARIES

CHEERS MSP

AC NYYC 1895 21345.JPG

 

HamishMacdonald

Super Anarchist
2,675
0
Christ no. I've rarely been so bored, whilst watching such exciting boats.

Give us four laps, with five minute legs - forty minute races. Boom.

 

Rennmaus

Super Anarchist
10,462
1,997
The beauty of the Deed is that it can adapt to changing times. This is probably the main reason why there is still a fiercely contested for America's Cup. Make it interesting, mix the requirements for the boats and people, have short and long races, so that the most complete boat and crew wins in the end, and not some 6kn-sweet-spot-specialized-bathtub-racer.

 
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luminary

Anarchist
714
54
It was not GLS's intent. It is clear that mutual consent was his intent and many believe that the terms he dictated if MC couldn't be reached were there as a deterent.

In my opinion, long courses lead to bad match racing, raising the chances of a procession and reducing the excitement resulting from mark roundings. In fact, it seems that the shorter the courses, the more exciting and better the match racing becomes. 20 mile legs simply turn the event into a speed one and allow for far too much seperation to make the event exciting.
It can also be argued that short courses dont reflect the true character of the sailors or boat - just who picked the first shift, and hence the emphasis in current racing on the skill of primarily the tactician and helmsman.

Some longer races coupled with short course races would, I think, add an element that would increase my interest in and appreciation for the racing. Imagine a race starting off Fishermans Wharf, out under the Golden Gate, into some swell, up and down the coast a little and storming back under kites.

Think cricket, motorsport, tennis, golf. These all have long format and short course "races". I am not suggesting abandoning one for the other, just mixing it up a little.

l.

 

Chris 249

Super Anarchist
5,238
0
LONG IS NOT 39 MILES SO GLS INTENDED THEM TO BE AT SEA AND NOT SOME REGATTA MINI COURSE

AND EQUAL MEANS BALANCED TO HAVE THE BOATS BEST POINTS USED

REMEMBER THESE WERE PILOT BOATS -FAST WORK BOATS THAT THEY WERE DEVELOPING

SO I AM NOT WRONG

ALL OF YOU NEED TO LOOK AT THE HISTORIC DOCUMENTATION

ALL GOOD POSTS THANKS BACK TO THE POINT OF THE THREAD IS THERE WERE LONG RACES EVEN UNDER MC UNDER GLS

MY POINT IS AND MOST HAVE MISSED IT WHICH HAPPENS REGULARLY

LONG RACES [ BY YOU POSTERS STANDARDS] [ NOT GLS ] ARE WITHIN THE D OF G AND SO GREAT

THE CONTEXT OF THE D OF G AND ITS COMPLETENESS PRIOR TO NYSC BUTCHERY OF IT

GLS WANTED BOATS TO SAIL ON THEIR OWN BOTTOMS

SO HOW FRGING LONG WAS THAT THOUSANDS OF MILES

JUST TO RACE

SO I SEE IT IN THE LIGHT OF THE DAYS AS IT WAS INTENDED AND DEEDED TO BE

I AM SEEING THAT ALL OF A SUDDEN ALL YOU THAT COUNTER ME THINK THE DEED RACES ARE LONG

YOUR ALL COMPARING WHAT IS LONG

NOT YOUR CHOICE

LOOK AT NYYC RACE DATA AGAIN I POST IT SEE MILES UNDER DEED OR MC 30 MILE AVG COURSES

BUT THANKS FOR THE EXCHANGE AND I RESPECT ALL OF YOUR OPINIONS AS THEY APPLY DIFF THINKING AND

ARE FROM AC BENEFICIARIES

CHEERS MSP
Thanks for the polite reply.

Yes, 40 mile races aren't particularly long for big boats. But the point is that it was clearly assumed by the NYYC and the Brits that Mutual Consent could vary the course length (among many other matters).

Apart from the first event, by the way, the AC wasn't "about pilot boats' unless you define 'pilot boats' to mean any schooner. The first AC race, in the UK, was sailed by one boat derived from a pilot boat (America) and a bunch of cutters and schooners. The owners of the America also owned boats like the beamy centreboard sloop Maria, which caned America in trials, so they weren't just concerned about pilot boats. The typical US yacht was very different from America, being a beamy centreboarder like a big sandbagger or the infamous Mohawk (30 feet in beam compared to America's 22 feet; seven feet in draft compared to America's 11).

The first consisted of a challenge of a UK schooner against a varied NYYC fleet, lead home by the centreboard schooner Magic, which had originally been a sloop.

The second challenge consisted of a UK schooner racing against a centreboard schooner (Columbia), and a keel schooner (Sappho).

The third challenge saw a Canadian centreboard schooner race the US centreboard Madelaine, originally sloop-rigged.

The fourth challenge saw a Canadian sloop beaten by a British-owned "compromise" sloop that narrowly won selection against a beamy centreboard 'skimming dish' sloop.

The next three challenges were all sailed in cutters, like boats like the 'compromise' designs inspired by events such as the victory of the UK cutter Madge. In fact the NYYC refused to even allow schooners into the trials for the matches from 1885(see Coffin's history).

So by the time the new DoG was created, there hadn't been a race win to a 'pilot schooner' since America's own victory. A 'pilot schooner' hadn't been selected as defender at any time. The schooners that won had been beamy centreboarders, quite different from the pilot boat style (with the exception of Sappho, which did half a Cup). There hadn't been a schooner in the AC in the last three challenges and the NYYC hadn't defended with a schooner in four matches.

None of the boats involved in the AC were work boats, although a couple ended up as working craft. These were racers and cruiser-racers. They were the toys of rich men - there wasn't any 'work boat' aspect to them.

 
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LONG IS NOT 39 MILES SO GLS INTENDED THEM TO BE AT SEA AND NOT SOME REGATTA MINI COURSE

AND EQUAL MEANS BALANCED TO HAVE THE BOATS BEST POINTS USED

REMEMBER THESE WERE PILOT BOATS -FAST WORK BOATS THAT THEY WERE DEVELOPING

SO I AM NOT WRONG

ALL OF YOU NEED TO LOOK AT THE HISTORIC DOCUMENTATION

ALL GOOD POSTS THANKS BACK TO THE POINT OF THE THREAD IS THERE WERE LONG RACES EVEN UNDER MC UNDER GLS

MY POINT IS AND MOST HAVE MISSED IT WHICH HAPPENS REGULARLY

LONG RACES [ BY YOU POSTERS STANDARDS] [ NOT GLS ] ARE WITHIN THE D OF G AND SO GREAT

THE CONTEXT OF THE D OF G AND ITS COMPLETENESS PRIOR TO NYSC BUTCHERY OF IT

GLS WANTED BOATS TO SAIL ON THEIR OWN BOTTOMS

SO HOW FRGING LONG WAS THAT THOUSANDS OF MILES

JUST TO RACE

SO I SEE IT IN THE LIGHT OF THE DAYS AS IT WAS INTENDED AND DEEDED TO BE

I AM SEEING THAT ALL OF A SUDDEN ALL YOU THAT COUNTER ME THINK THE DEED RACES ARE LONG

YOUR ALL COMPARING WHAT IS LONG

NOT YOUR CHOICE

LOOK AT NYYC RACE DATA AGAIN I POST IT SEE MILES UNDER DEED OR MC 30 MILE AVG COURSES

BUT THANKS FOR THE EXCHANGE AND I RESPECT ALL OF YOUR OPINIONS AS THEY APPLY DIFF THINKING AND

ARE FROM AC BENEFICIARIES

CHEERS MSP
Thanks for the polite reply.

Yes, 40 mile races aren't particularly long for big boats. But the point is that it was clearly assumed by the NYYC and the Brits that Mutual Consent could vary the course length (among many other matters).

Apart from the first event, by the way, the AC wasn't "about pilot boats' unless you define 'pilot boats' to mean any schooner. The first AC race, in the UK, was sailed by one boat derived from a pilot boat (America) and a bunch of cutters and schooners. The owners of the America also owned boats like the beamy centreboard sloop Maria, which caned America in trials, so they weren't just concerned about pilot boats. The typical US yacht was very different from America, being a beamy centreboarder like a big sandbagger or the infamous Mohawk (30 feet in beam compared to America's 22 feet; seven feet in draft compared to America's 11).

The first consisted of a challenge of a UK schooner against a varied NYYC fleet, lead home by the centreboard schooner Magic, which had originally been a sloop.

The second challenge consisted of a UK schooner racing against a centreboard schooner (Columbia), and a keel schooner (Sappho).

The third challenge saw a Canadian centreboard schooner race the US centreboard Madelaine, originally sloop-rigged.

The fourth challenge saw a Canadian sloop beaten by a British-owned "compromise" sloop that narrowly won selection against a beamy centreboard 'skimming dish' sloop.

The next three challenges were all sailed in cutters, like boats like the 'compromise' designs inspired by events such as the victory of the UK cutter Madge. In fact the NYYC refused to even allow schooners into the trials for the matches from 1885(see Coffin's history).

So by the time the new DoG was created, there hadn't been a race win to a 'pilot schooner' since America's own victory. A 'pilot schooner' hadn't been selected as defender at any time. The schooners that won had been beamy centreboarders, quite different from the pilot boat style (with the exception of Sappho, which did half a Cup). There hadn't been a schooner in the AC in the last three challenges and the NYYC hadn't defended with a schooner in four matches.

None of the boats involved in the AC were work boats, although a couple ended up as working craft. These were racers and cruiser-racers. They were the toys of rich men - there wasn't any 'work boat' aspect to them.
THANKS FOR THE POINTS AND REF

I THINK YOU OVER STATED MY PILOT BOAT REF TOWARDS/ INTO WORK BOATS

PILOT BOATS WERE IMPORTANT AND WERE A MAJOR INFLUENCE

AS I PROVIDE THESE REFS FROM THE HISTORICAL WRITINGS OF THE TIMES

AND MAYBE IT WILL ADD SOME CLARITY TO MY PILOT BOAT REF

MSP

AC PILOT BOATS 01.JPG

AC PILOT BOATS 001234.JPG

AC PILOT BOATS 012.JPG

AC PILOT BOATS 0123.JPG

AC PILOT BOATS 01234.JPG

AC PILOT BOATS 012345.JPG

 

kadyca

Super Anarchist
1,097
5
IT IS A GREAT IDEA AND WILL HAVE THE BOATS BE MORE D OF G COMPLIANT

PER GLS INTENT

CHEERS MSP
In my opinion, long courses lead to bad match racing, raising the chances of a procession and reducing the excitement resulting from mark roundings. In fact, it seems that the shorter the courses, the more exciting and better the match racing becomes. 20 mile legs simply turn the event into a speed one and allow for far too much seperation to make the event exciting.
Simon, you want "Exciting"???

Why don't you come out to SF for a 20 mile windward/leeward jaunt out the gate and around the Faralons when it's honking.

Now that is exciting!!! So exciting, in fact, that, over the years, a number of sailors have died from the "excitement" they encountered on that course.

A course like that would bring some real sailing to the AC. As much as I enjoy rounding the bouys in the bay, it's a whole different ball of wax once you go outside. Definitely worth of the AC, especially if they are serious about their desire to have the boats be able to sail in upto 35 knots.

 

Finnfart

Super Anarchist
1,734
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SF Bay Area
IT IS A GREAT IDEA AND WILL HAVE THE BOATS BE MORE D OF G COMPLIANT

PER GLS INTENT

CHEERS MSP
In my opinion, long courses lead to bad match racing, raising the chances of a procession and reducing the excitement resulting from mark roundings. In fact, it seems that the shorter the courses, the more exciting and better the match racing becomes. 20 mile legs simply turn the event into a speed one and allow for far too much seperation to make the event exciting.
Simon, you want "Exciting"???

Why don't you come out to SF for a 20 mile windward/leeward jaunt out the gate and around the Faralons when it's honking.

Now that is exciting!!! So exciting, in fact, that, over the years, a number of sailors have died from the "excitement" they encountered on that course.

A course like that would bring some real sailing to the AC. As much as I enjoy rounding the bouys in the bay, it's a whole different ball of wax once you go outside. Definitely worth of the AC, especially if they are serious about their desire to have the boats be able to sail in upto 35 knots.

Adding to the excitement: Tons of sharks. Every time I see some 1 foot triangular fin tooling around me out there, I hold onto whatever sheet I have just a tad harder. Don't want to over stress the hull Australian style out there!

 
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