52.5' LOA motor sailer project

Zonker

Super Anarchist
9,107
5,022
Canada
Thank you for sharing this. Fun to see it at this stage. Glad you don't mind a second or third set of eyes looking it over.

A couple of things.

One commercial regulation that makes sense is to have the front sloped pilothouse windows at least 15° from vertical. Really helps with reducing reflections from the instruments at night. Also looks good.

I am not keen on painting that visor a contrasting colour. I think the visor should be there, but just not so obvious a styling feature.  Some dredges paint the visor international orange. Not a fan. Your eye is drawn to the visor which is good if you want people to avoid your dredge but otherwise it stands out too much. 

Important - paint the underside matt black or similar non reflective colour. Dark grey is OK too and maybe a bit more interesting. Having the overhead above the dash a dark colour is good here too. 

Think about Autoprops too. Better powering performance than the flat blades of a Max Prop because the blades have twist versus the inefficient flat blades of most feathering props. Little more drag under sail but that isn't the main goal here, is it?

The rig looks very far forward but I'd trust Bob since he's done a lot more sailboats of this type than I have! (What's the lead if it's not a secret?)

Not keen on the searchlight on top of the cabin. The beam hitting the mast will blind you with the reflection. Maybe mounted inverted under the radar antenna with a sail guard to the sides? Maybe it's offset enough on the cabin top that it works for say +/- 15 deg of center without hitting the mast?

Like the sideboards for the nav lights. 

Like that classic bow shape and stripe curve at the bow. We need more of them in our lives.

Do you really need side door on port side of cabin as well as stbd? I'd be so tempted to fit a L shaped lounging seat there that you can sit into the corner and put your feet up...

I think this stair/bhd might work a bit better for getting down the stairs and into the port side cabin. Just flows a little bit better, more cabin room, and easier to build and enter/exit flat door.

image.png

 

Zonker

Super Anarchist
9,107
5,022
Canada
Also being motor sailor you could motor sail with one engine at reduced fuel consumption at a more friendly rpm for a diesel instead of low revving a large diesel which ain't so good for it.
Cummins are not exactly screamers but "low load" really means something like 20%. And with common rail injection you are electronically controlling the injectors so you can really eliminate that issue (overfueling at low RPM).

 

Bob Perry

Super Anarchist
31,911
1,201
Zonks:

The curved stairway to the lower level: There is a lift up door there to the engine room. I had a curved stairway when I began.

I'll take care of the colors.

The searchlight is to dress up the drawing more than anything else.  It's me displaying my love of Bill Garden's work. Maybe I should add the axe on the side of the cabin trunk.

I never calculate "lead". Haven't in 45 years. It has never made sense to me to turn a very shapely hull  and sails with draft into 2D planes. It's not reality. I have my own method. I wanted the mast forward because this boat  will only sail when there is a good breeze and off the wind. I want to maintain good helm balance in a breeze.

I originally only had a starboard door in the side of the PH but the client asked for one to port also. I think that's the best idea for a boat that will live where it is warm and there is no outside steering station.

Thanks for taking the time to comment.

Ted.jpg

 
Last edited by a moderator:

Bob Perry

Super Anarchist
31,911
1,201
Bgytr:

The hull shape of a sailboat of this size does not lend itself to twin screws. You could fit the engines in but you could not walk around them or work on them easily. I have 24" clear space each side of the engine. They would also take volume from where I have wing tanks for 1,000 gals of fuel. This is the engine the client wants.

I have the exact opposite experience with Max props. I have used Max props for years on my full keel boats to help cure overly aggressive prop walk. The symmetrical blade of the Max prop make it excellent in reverse. I've sold hundreds of Max props. Still waiting for my commission.

 

bgytr

Super Anarchist
4,855
498
Bgytr:

The hull shape of a sailboat of this size does not lend itself to twin screws. You could fit the engines in but you could not walk around them or work on them easily. I have 24" clear space each side of the engine. They would also take volume from where I have wing tanks for 1,000 gals of fuel. This is the engine the client wants.

I have the exact opposite experience with Max props. I have used Max props for years on my full keel boats to help cure overly aggressive prop walk. The symmetrical blade of the Max prop make it excellent in reverse. I've sold hundreds of Max props. Still waiting for my commission.
Max prop on my boat has a big pull, but it's possible it could be unique to my hull due to the shape and shaft angle.  It performs great as far as thrust, and low drag under sail.  I'm used to the amount of lateral pull, it's pretty easy to adapt to it.  

Ya twins was just a thought.  If it don't work, it don't work.

 

IStream

Super Anarchist
10,729
2,932
FWIW, the Max Prop on my 50'er (20T displacement, 100hp, 3 blades prop @ 22" diameter) exhibits virtually no prop walk in reverse. 

 

Ease the sheet.

ignoring stupid people is easy
19,461
1,976
Dave:

No. I am fixated on in boom furling. I have done several boats with it over the last 20+ years  and I like it a lot.

Ease:

No it does not need the stripe. But with that much freeboard it helps bring the eye down. I will leave the stripe there for now. The stripe is now a white stripe. Maybe that works better for your eye.

It's not my style of boat either but the boat is not for me. It's my task to give the client what they want. The client saw this design of mine and asked for something in that style but bigger. He likes this look. I do too.

View attachment 504671
It's amazing what a couple of feet and a different angle can do. Colour scheme helps too.

This shorter boat looks more attractive to me, maybe mast/cabin seperation, maybe optical illusion....

The smaller boat looks more "workman" like, with associated character.

These are, of course, all my observations.

I've no doubt you will end up with another happy customer.

 

Bob Perry

Super Anarchist
31,911
1,201
Thanks for the feedback on the Max Prop. Living in Ballard for 35 years I knew the PYI guys from the start. We were almost neighbors. I have always spec'd their Max Prop since spending a week doing extensive prop tests with various props. My full keel designs all struggle in reverse and the best thing I can do to reduce the problem is spec a Max Prop. They once gave me a very mediocre case of wine.

Yes, there will be a bow thruster. With this much freeboard I think it is necessary.

 
Last edited by a moderator:
Our experience with the four blade max prop has been good, no real prop walk and significant astern thrust compared to fixed.  I wonder if the ease of adjusting pitch to asbuilt needs is one of the reasons they are preferred.  They seem to be one of the easier props to tweak pitch on.  They would do well to improve the design of their zinc attachment.  It's always sucked and would take very little effort to improve. I've bitched to Phil about it.

 

Navig8tor

Super Anarchist
7,029
1,769
Thanks for the feedback on the Max Prop. Living in Ballard for 35 years I knew the PYI guys from the start. We were almost neighbors. I have always spec'd their Max Prop since spending a week doing extensive prop tests with various props. My full keel designs all struggle in reverse and the best thing I can do to reduce the problem is spec a Max Prop. They once gave me a very mediocre case of wine.

Yes, there will be a bow thruster. With this much freeboard I think it is necessary.
Hi Bob,

I ran a 50' MS of a very similar design, had a 300 H.P. CAT shoehorned into it, and a 23 inch Maxprop. Didn't have a bowtruster- if you goosed the throttle you could literally make the Bow jump a foot to Port or Starboard. It made you a Rockstar handling it in close quarters.

The vessel was an Alloy Brewer (design-#167)  a very different Pilothouse arrangement and a additional external helm that was helpful in close quarters.

Keep drawing good looking boats!

 

longy

Overlord of Anarchy
6,240
878
San Diego
What is current thought on Solent (inner) jib sheeting?  I still like the Hoyt jib boom for ease of use (including sailing deep) if it can be made to fit. Can the inner stay be moved aft, windlass moved aft, to allow boom to be just inside stemhead?

 

Remodel

Super Anarchist
9,979
734
None
I like it. It's not necessarily my style, but it has a very workmanlike, go anywhere - do anything look to it. And while it may not be the sexiest boat in the harbor, it will draw the most attention.

Nice work Bob. Thanks for sharing.

 

Remodel

Super Anarchist
9,979
734
None
Regarding the side gates, couldn't they be built as a sort of pocket door that in order to open pops in an inch or so and then slides forward along the side of or maybe even inside of the bulwark?

 

Student_Driver

Super Anarchist
1,749
146
Darien
Let me first say that this would be a cool boat for high latitudes IMHO. I have always been covetous of boats with protected helms but there are few out there that make sense. I like it and wish I could afford to build a variation on the theme. 50-57 seems to me to be a great size range for owner operated boats. Not too big and not too small. Love the fuel capacity. Reminds me slightly of the Cheoy Lee 43 Motorsailor. (IIRC) which I think has 600 gallon of dinosaur juice.

I have one other question, at this time.

Which stateroom would be the owner's cabin? If it is meant to be the one directly in front of the pilot house (not the forward stateroom), then it seems odd that the owners head (is not en-suite) becomes the day head and requires crossing a hallway to access. I'd personally prefer that the guest head be the day head and that the owner's head be en-suite/private. I can see how it would be hard to do that while maintaining easy access to the forward stateroom. 

 

Sail4beer

Super Anarchist
9,664
3,172
Toms River,NJ
I’m just glad that we have a chance to see some work from young Will Porter. Glad that you are collaborating with him. I hope he’s enjoying some time on his Catalina 22 when not working! 

 

Bob Perry

Super Anarchist
31,911
1,201
Sass:

I think the effectiveness of the Max Prop in reverse has more to do with the fact that the blades are symmetrical. Most pros have asymmetrical blades that favor the forward gear. They suffer in reverse because they are not designed for reverse.

 
Top