52nd Thrash to the Onion Patch

us7070

Super Anarchist
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243
No. That is the same. The issue is the corrected times for the Gibbs Hill Division seem to be calculated differently than the St. Davids. Case in point, Warrior Won and Callisto, both Pac 52's with virtually the same rating. The finished 1 hour apart, but their corrected times are 8 hours different. WW is in Gibbs Hill and Callisto in St. Davids (Pro vs. no Pro).

Under PCS scoring, the corrected times are not meaningful - they depend entirely on the choice of scratch boat.., so if two divisions have different scratch boats.., two identical boats that finish in identical times will have different corrected times.

the order of finish under PCR scoring is fully determined by a boat's implied wind speed - calculated from their ORR rating, the time it took them to sail the course.., and the distance of the course; the wind it "looks like" the boat sailed the course in Different boats will have different implied win speeds. The boat with the highest implied wind speed wins.

Implied wind speeds are not assigned by the committee - they are your result...

your corrected time is how long the scratch boat would have taken to sail the race in your implied wind speed. since they usually choose the fastest boat in a division to be the scratch boat, corrected times are always less than elapsed times.

the choice of scratch boat does not afffect the order of finish.., which is determined by the order of implied wind speeds. . The choice of scratch boat does determine the corrected time deltas, but does not change the order of finish

Because of this, you can't compare corrected times across divisions with different scratch boats
 
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Roleur

Super Anarchist
2,958
653
Orcas Island
Illusion then WW. I'm using WW and Callisto as a way to cross-reference between the two divisions. Handy to have two boats with basically the same rating in both divisions and finish very close to each other.
 

Just A Skosh

Super Anarchist
1,386
65
New Hampshire
I wonder what happened with Artemisia. Still not on the results sheet despite appearing to finish last evening... either RC is being slow (wouldn't be a surprise) or maybe they didn't cross the line. Yellowbrick track makes it look like they might've missed the finish, although of course that's not perfectly accurate.
 

Sinn Fein

New member
12
7
New Jersey
Well…it’s a wrap. I enjoyed watching the u tube videos that featured the divisional and fleet winners this year. Props to Mr. Rives Potts who was the only speaker (that I watched the video on) to acknowledge the tragedy with MOM in this race and put everything into perspective…I don’t know the man but he seems to be very down to earth and I really commend him on doing that…no offense to the others, they are in their Bermuda Bliss…
 

accnick

Super Anarchist
3,245
2,268
No. That is the same. The issue is the corrected times for the Gibbs Hill Division seem to be calculated differently than the St. Davids. Case in point, Warrior Won and Callisto, both Pac 52's with virtually the same rating. The finished 1 hour apart, but their corrected times are 8 hours different. WW is in Gibbs Hill and Callisto in St. Davids (Pro vs. no Pro).
They are scored against different scratch boats, so you can't compare results between St. David' and Gibbs Hill unless you re-score to the same scratch boat. It has nothing to do with pros vs no pros.
 
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accnick

Super Anarchist
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Yes, it does have to do with Pros vs. no Pros. WW is Pro and Callisto is no pro, therefore they are in different divisions.
Yes, the two divisions are pro drivers vs no pro drivers. But that does not impact on handicaps. ORR handicaps the boats, not the crews. The calculation of corrected times in the two divisions is a function of the rating of the reference scratch boat in each division.

Each division is a self-contained race, unlike many ocean races. Cross-divisional comparison of results, included corrected times, can only be done if all divisions use the same scratch boat as a reference. This is not done in the Newport-Bermuda race. It is sometimes done by the technical committee post-race, for purposes of analysis.

Boats in St. David's are permitted a limited number of professionals, but they are not permitted to drive.
 

robalex117

Super Anarchist
Yes, the two divisions are pro drivers vs no pro drivers. But that does not impact on handicaps. ORR handicaps the boats, not the crews. The calculation of corrected times in the two divisions is a function of the rating of the reference scratch boat in each division.

Each division is a self-contained race, unlike many ocean races. Cross-divisional comparison of results, included corrected times, can only be done if all divisions use the same scratch boat as a reference. This is not done in the Newport-Bermuda race. It is sometimes done by the technical committee post-race, for purposes of analysis.

Boats in St. David's are permitted a limited number of professionals, but they are not permitted to drive.
I know accnick knows this, but for the group there are other criteria besides pro drivers that would make the boat ineligible for St. Davids but still eligible to race in the Gibbs Hill division. Moveable ballast and powered winches.

It would also be nice to see how the DH winner would have done in the St. Davids or Gibbs Hill. My guess is a podium, probably 2nd.
 
From the skipper interviews, seems like every boat has torn up at least one sail and all of them spent some time sideways.
Interesting to hear how R/P 74 Wizard tore their mainsail which the sailmaker attributed to a manufacturing defect and they went with a trysail for a few hours and then used a J2 attached to the main track cars as a mainsail. There must be some good stories to tell for boats down in the standings.
I was on a boat in the St. David's division and we had some gnarly conditions one day with gusts over 40kn and sustained mid-30's. We blew our pulpit and lost use of the spi and code 0, then ended up behind the front and were almost becalmed. The boats after us fared worse - the calm conditions behind us meant that they need a full extra 24 hours for the final miles!
 

accnick

Super Anarchist
3,245
2,268
We had about 25-33 WNW on entering the Stream, with a few higher gusts, running off the wind. We stayed E of rhumb for the stronger winds and better currents, and it paid off well. I kept watching Stan Honey over my shoulder on the tracker and on AIS, and figured out that if he and I were in the same patch of water, we must be doing something right.

We had maybe 5 hours of extremely light air just S of the stream before it filled in a bit, but was light W-NW the rest of the way to the finish, so starboard tack for 98% of the race, plus a couple of tacks and gybes. Fortunately we had three really, really good spinnaker trimmers, and a couple of good drivers.

All in all, we got as much out of an Oyster 53 as you can expect. Sort of like flogging a Clydesdale in the Kentucky Derby
 

Sinn Fein

New member
12
7
New Jersey
Expand or elaborate?
If you go to the GW Blunt White Library in Mystic, CT there are various collections of paperwork and photos from mostly deceased sailors as well as old records from the N/B Race. In the early years this was an invite only race where you needed to be a member of NYYC, RBYC or CCA or at the very least have a sailor connected with one of these clubs sponsor you. Other controversial moves by the organizers of the race included banns on certain boats for their activities in Bermuda, some deserved and some made up rumors, as well as changing the rules to exclude smaller boats from competition(Burgoo). Our Boat was originally named “Powhatan”, built in 1965, I was able to look it up in these library archives and determine that it first raced to Bermuda in 1968. If you are into this sort of thing check out this library…the nautical photo collection is amazing!
 

TwoRockKnock

Member
109
25
Bermuda
If you go to the GW Blunt White Library in Mystic, CT there are various collections of paperwork and photos from mostly deceased sailors as well as old records from the N/B Race. In the early years this was an invite only race where you needed to be a member of NYYC, RBYC or CCA or at the very least have a sailor connected with one of these clubs sponsor you. Other controversial moves by the organizers of the race included banns on certain boats for their activities in Bermuda, some deserved and some made up rumors, as well as changing the rules to exclude smaller boats from competition(Burgoo). Our Boat was originally named “Powhatan”, built in 1965, I was able to look it up in these library archives and determine that it first raced to Bermuda in 1968. If you are into this sort of thing check out this library…the nautical photo collection is amazing!
Interesting, but you seemed to suggest "skullduggery" in applying penalties, ratings and scoring? Did I misunderstand?
 
I know accnick knows this, but for the group there are other criteria besides pro drivers that would make the boat ineligible for St. Davids but still eligible to race in the Gibbs Hill division. Moveable ballast and powered winches.

It would also be nice to see how the DH winner would have done in the St. Davids or Gibbs Hill. My guess is a podium, probably 2nd.
Maybe even first in GH. Holy crap did Vlad and Zach sail an incredible race. I was on a much faster boat, finished quite well, and did not pass them until monday morning.
 

Sinn Fein

New member
12
7
New Jersey
I just saw 30 minute penalties given for infractions in this years race…but the NOR for N/B changes for every race. I am fairly sure that ten to fifteen years ago penalties started at 1 hour, period. Now it seems that it may be at the discretion of the R/C which in some ways is a bit worse… A local boat from our area, Saline Solutions, had a great race one year, had guys sleeping on the rail, and beat Idler on corrected time. they had won their class and as such were subjected to a thorough inspection. They were given a one hour penalty for lifelines that were not tight enough to be in compliance…(probably from the extreme hiking). Needless to say I was gutted by this move by the R/C but also learned a lesson to retighten the lashings before our finishes…there are quite a few rules that every owner should be aware of. In our 2008 race we got one of there “super inspections” and almost had a problem with our bottled water supply…(we finished on a hot day and actually started drinking this water on our motor to Hamilton) they don’t care about any tank water and we could have just filled some empty bottles from our tanks before finishing…fortunately we had enough but it was very close and technically we finished with more water but got inspected more thoroughly for the SECOND time at the dock after we had drank about 2 gallons of rum and some of this water.

In 2018 there was a very high finisher who required a tow into Hamilton due to having run out of diesel…I’m not sure if this rule was changed but there had been a rule that required finishing with enough fuel to motor either 100 or 150 miles….we always carried this extra fuel even though it was not ideal for us due to the location of our tank…if this towed boat was in the “commoner” category I don’t think this would have been overlooked…and this would have been fairly easy for the R/C to confirm at RBYC if they were interested…I think their winning margin was less than 5 minutes so there was no room for a penalty of any kind…

My overall point here is that there seems to be some preferential treatment for certain boats/owners while other competitors, like Saline Solutions and Sinn Fein, get penalized and given a time penalty that is just big enough to change the results…or get the full prostate exam by the R/C…the best moment after racing in 2006 and being respected at the dock was when they asked for our second manual compass…my Dad went right into his skinny drawer in the nav. station and pulled out his old 3 ounce Boy Scout compass from the 50’s with a big grin…he finished as an Eagle Scout BTW…
 
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accnick

Super Anarchist
3,245
2,268
To clarify:

Discretionary penalties are applied by the International Jury after a hearing, unless a penalty is applied automatically, such as the new 30 minute OCS penalty. The International Jury is an independent entity that has nothing to do with the Race Committee, which happens to be the NYYC Race Committee.

Likewise, the Bermuda Race Organizing Committee, which is the Organizing Authority, does not assign discretionary penalties.

Discretionary Penalties are generally in lieu of disqualification, and allow a competitor to be scored when under the standard application of a Rule, they might be disqualified.

Virtually every class, division, and major prize winner gets a post-race inspection, which is a follow-up to the pre-race inspection, covering exactly the same items. This is outlined in both the NOR and the NBRSR (Newport Bermuda Race Safety Requirements), and should come as no surprise to anyone.

Loose lifelines are a priority in the post-race inspection protocol, as they are a critical safety requirement. If your lifelines were tight at the pre-race inspection, and determined to be too loose afterwards, you may be using the wrong material for end lashings, and should seriously look at an alternative material if you plan on doing the race in the future.

The test for looseness is specifically described in the NBRSR. It is not a subjective evaluation.

Likewise, any boat that has to be towed in after the finish is generally queried to discover the nature of the problem.

NBRSR 2.7.1 (a) relates to fuel onboard after finishing:

"2.7.1(a) Fuel On Board: A boat shall carry sufficient fuel to provide a cruising range under power of at least 100 nautical miles after finishing."

This is not a new rule.

It is obviously not practical for the inspectors to measure the amount of fuel aboard, but if a boat must be towed in after the finish, the inspectors will generally investigate.

NBRSR 3.37 discusses emergency drinking water:

"3.37 Emergency Drinking Water: A boat shall carry 1 gallon (3.785 liters) per crewmember of emergency drinking water in sealed containers in addition to any other water carried aboard the boat, and it shall be aboard after finishing." You would be ill-advised to break into your emergency water after the race until you determine if your boat will be subject to a post-race inspection.

Rumors, gossip, and innuendo are the currency of ocean racing and yacht racing in general, and bitching at the race organizers and their representatives is hardly limited to the Newport Bermuda Race.

We do our best to run a fair, safe race for all competitors. But we very much depend on the efforts of competitors to follow the rules and to exercise good judgement in order to keep our sport largely self-policing, as well as safe.
 




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