65- by 32-foot catamaran 3200sqft of living space

so - should he pull her back on land, let her dry out a bit, and then cover her with 3/8" glass and polyester? (I'd say epoxy as it's wood, but we know that's not in the budget)

say he builds a "pan" up to about 6" above the WL, and then uses waterproofing paint above that. Will it keep the water out long enough to go "full taco"?
C'mon, Occam, let's not make it any less biodegradable than it already is. Think of the impact on our future generations, amigo.

 

Boston1

Super Anarchist
3,653
0
BF colorado
I don't see how wiring is going to end up being his problem. HR seems to have enough, shorter term concerns than something as trivial ( har har ) wiring. One week in and he's likely to start seeing some alterations in how its floating. That 3/8 will begin soaking up water through all those screw holes if nothing else. Not sure it will even have time to rust.

From what I can gather so far about the structural design, its got some kinda truss system is what I'd guess. Wont work cause of how badly its put together but its was, to put it in its best possible light, a try. Roof trusses are generally held together with gussets pressed into the 2xs, they often fall apart before they are even on the roof and even there they're spaced 2 OC rather than 4.

Bolts you say, nope not going to alter the outcome just as described in so many other posts before, so I'll forgo getting to far into something already discussed to death. But I will mention that the tensile strength of the 2/4 at the connection is far far below the forces that would be put on it in even a mild sea, hell probably just what he might experience in a rough day at the dock. That bolts going to pull through in an eye popping jaw dropping moment of realization for ole Rod Moe. I just wish there was a camera rigged to go off when it does. Maybe someone could sneak a box camera in there and set up a string off the trigger to the end of that 2x and kinda aimed in the most likely direction our boy Rod Moe might be gawking at it from. If it survives, it's be one of the most famous engineering disaster shots of all time.

Long story short whoever's doing the pool, I'll take Wed the 25th of this month right around midnight. Or whenever the first storm hits.

Cheers
B

 
In respone to a recent post, Yes, Hotrod does have a gasoline powered generator, plus 2 large solar panels and a wind generator. I hope he has a VHF radio and EPIRB. Photo in post 2164 shows generator.

Maybe SA should crowd source a yellowbrick system for our buddy HR. Now that he's out on the end tie its difficult to see him.

Last night the 3 amigos were still cleaning up the build lot, so everything must be just dandy abound the HF. Maybe he will get his deposit back. Ha ha, you know he's behind in fees.

I commented on the bilge water being pumped out but that was during the wash down. I decided not to taste test it for fresh/salt water.

The substandard building materials really don't matter, nothing is stronger than surf and rock. Sails won't work, outboards wont work. If he gets towed out to the central bay it might get sucked out to sea if he manages to miss the bridge towers. Better hurry, it's expensive to get that crap out of the water in the marina. How long will it be before it ends up in the bay debris dock in Richardson Bay? The Claw is coming. Never should have been launched!

 

Monkey

Super Anarchist
11,082
2,713
Wind loading

I understand the plan is to install one 10hp outboard on the back of each hull. The question "is 20 hp enough for this 'boat'?" has been asked a number of times and no one has answered.

This is a little outside my area of practice (I am an engineer) but here are some thoughts.

I have an engineering textbook that says "wind pressures on a wall of building should be assumed at 15 lb/sq ft." A boat is not a building but in this case, let's assume it is (not as far off as one might think).

That is an upper design limit: so let's assume a "breeze" is 1/20 that amount. So let's go with 0.75 lbs/sq ft.

I think it reasonable that, if you held up a 1' x 1' piece of plywood in a breeze, you might feel 0.75 lbs of force.

So far, so good.

What is the area of this 'boat'? I will assume the wind is on the beam. Let's go with a length of 65 feet and a height of 15 feet. That is 975 sq feet. I will round that to 1000 sq feet to make the math easy.

0.75 lbs/sq ft X 1000 sq feet = 750 lbs.

I found on the Internet, someone who claims his 20 hp outboard has a force of 300 lbs. Let's go with that. Converting hp to force depends on a number of factors, but let's just go with that.

So if the wind force is 750 lbs of force and the outboards produce 300 lbs, it is pretty clear the engines are undersized for use in what I call a breeze.

If anyone wants to improve on this very approximate, back-of-the-envelope calculation, please go ahead. But someone had to make the first estimate.

Note that a Gunboat 60 (I checked their website) has 2 x 18 kW propulsion motors (total 36 kW of propulsion). 36 kW = 47 hp.
To be fair, most of the 9.8/9.9 HP outboards are actually around 12 HP in real life. HotRod's much safer with 24 HP! :D

 

Steam Flyer

Sophisticated Yet Humble
45,607
10,282
Eastern NC
I don't see how wiring is going to end up being his problem. ... ... ...

Long story short whoever's doing the pool, I'll take Wed the 25th of this month right around midnight. Or whenever the first storm hits.
Can you make book on "when the first storm hits?" I think if you want to hedge, you need to be more specific.

I think the Moment Will Arrive a week sooner, put me down for the 18th. Or winds exceeding 20 kt, or a big-ass motorboat wake, or the first time he takes it outside the breakwall of the marina.

HotRod is already seeing changes in the way it floats, the hulls are rotating outward and are slanted visibly as well as lower in the water. But if our boy knows one thing, it's how to work in truly bull-headed fashion against all obstacles. I think the good sailing vessel FH is already compromised beyond being able to pull it out of the water, plus it's going to take a much bigger tow vehicle to get it up than to let it down.

FB- Doug

 

βhyde

Super Anarchist
8,358
1,958
Beside Myself
Note that a Gunboat 60 (I checked their website) has 2 x 18 kW propulsion motors (total 36 kW of propulsion). 36 kW = 47 hp.
I think the weight is the determining factor when sizing motors.

The Gunboat 60 weighs in at 40,000lbs if I'm reading the website spec right. That's about 850lbs/hp.

HR's turbo FH only weighs 12,000lbs to 15,000lbs in "race mode" and has 18hp (2 x 9hp). So that's 830lbs/hp.

FH is going to motor faster than a Gunboat 60. Of course, with no daggerboards and a steering system that couldn't turn a bathtub, it's anyone's guess where the motors will take it.

 

Sand crab

Member
307
1
Montana
One rule is about 4 HP per ton minimum. Another is about 1HP per ft. HRs boat will weigh over 20 tons if completed and holds together. Check 60' cats and you will see that they all have pretty substantial motors. 100 HP per hull is not unreasonable.

Many boats use untinned non marine grade stranded wire. It's not that expensive. They say Romex is not made for a moving vehicle but my 2 RVs had it. WTF?

 
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Jangles13

Anarchist
785
12
Maine
Note that a Gunboat 60 (I checked their website) has 2 x 18 kW propulsion motors (total 36 kW of propulsion). 36 kW = 47 hp.
I think the weight is the determining factor when sizing motors.

The Gunboat 60 weighs in at 40,000lbs if I'm reading the website spec right. That's about 850lbs/hp.

HR's turbo FH only weighs 12,000lbs to 15,000lbs in "race mode" and has 18hp (2 x 9hp). So that's 830lbs/hp.

FH is going to motor faster than a Gunboat 60. Of course, with no daggerboards and a steering system that couldn't turn a bathtub, it's anyone's guess where the motors will take it.
I think the website is off. The brochure pdf says 27k light or 33k loaded. Seems more likely and in line with what I recall reading in previous reviews. 40k is just way too much given all that CF.

HR just needs 2 more outboards. Quads = awesome.

 
bluenosejr - why should one only use stranded conductors on a boat? What is wrong with solid? Is it a corrosion issue? Any more pictures of his wiring jobs? I did notice a completely exposed blue plastic junction box with everything hanging out. Aslo who know how much work he is getting done on it now that he has his TV and xbox360 installed in the boat!

everyone talking about outboards - Isn't the gunboat comparison off as prop design/pitch and engine torque are much more important than hp numbers. Everyone just uses hp because the outboard buying fishing crowd is already familiar with the measurement and like their car / truck the bigger the number the better. Where as its been proven time and time again that if you spend the same amount of money increasing HP or lightening a car, lightening the car will have a much larger impact on speed/acceleration. I only bring it up because the gunboat with only 46 hp seems low (I know its has electric motors and HP was calculated of from KW)

I'm thinking that he might get a knot or 3 out of the outboards he has. That is if he mount them correctly and the boat so that they don't tear the boat apart when he goes to full throttle. In fact if he can make the boat move in within 10 degrees of where his bows are pointed (those are pointed in the same direction right?) he should consider that a success.

Thanks for the education about low grade building lumber carriage bolts and how not to do fiberglass.

Where did Nana the sock puppet go? That was good for at least two or three more posts.

PLEASE POST MORE PICTURES EVEN JUST IT SITTING AT THE DOCK. NOT ALL OF US CAN GET TO SAN FRAN TO WATCH THIS THING SINK!

And someone please push him to take it out for a 'shake down cruise'. This thing, for his and our sakes, needs a climatic finish to it. FH falling apart at the dock just won't be a fitting end to this story. And perhaps HR might figure out that he was completely over his head the entire time and should not attempt anything like this again, or at least listen to the skeptics and it doesn't seem that anything less than the traumatic experience of FH sinking beneath him and the coasties pulling him out of the bay will convince him otherwise.

Or who knows he might prove us all wrong and the thing might make it to Hawaii. If it does look for me at Home Depot buying CDX, low grade plywood and galvanized screws for FH2!

 

nos4r2

Member
134
0
UK
why should one only use stranded conductors on a boat? What is wrong with solid?
Vibration/fatigue makes solid cables fracture.

Just finished a big rewiring job, 200 metres of tinned multistrand with glue lined heatshrink butts and Bulgin connectors on a loom that should still operate when completely submerged.

For what it's worth, I have a friend over here who's a bit of an HR. He even looks like him, and he has just as many wacko ideas. I think it's the hat that does it...

By the way, I have photos of my mates girlfriend's tits, do you want to see them? :D

 
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Mike_Fink

New member
38
0
Maysville
And someone please push him to take it out for a 'shake down cruise'. This thing, for his and our sakes, needs a climatic finish to it. FH falling apart at the dock just won't be a fitting end to this story. And perhaps HR might figure out that he was completely over his head the entire time and should not attempt anything like this again, or at least listen to the skeptics and it doesn't seem that anything less than the traumatic experience of FH sinking beneath him and the coasties pulling him out of the bay will convince him otherwise.
So HR needs to take HR out "over his head" so he can be properly shown that he is over his head? I like it it! Lets go with it. We all get credit for being great humanitarians in the process. Its beautiful man.

 

mikewof

mikewof
45,868
1,246
so - should he pull her back on land, let her dry out a bit, and then cover her with 3/8" glass and polyester? (I'd say epoxy as it's wood, but we know that's not in the budget)

say he builds a "pan" up to about 6" above the WL, and then uses waterproofing paint above that. Will it keep the water out long enough to go "full taco"?
I was started down that thought path, but the continuing string of 'shoulda-woulda-coulda's made my head hurt.

Yes, nice thick coat of glass/resin over the whole outside might make it waterproof.

A nice thick coat on the inside of the hulls might turn that frame/stringer mess strong enough to hold up to a few bumps

And if he glassed all the around the connections between hull and bridgedeck...

And if he did this... and that... and a few other things...

He'd still have an worthless pile of shit.
That much glass and resin would cost $50k? More?
It doesn't seem reasonable to throw that kind of money at it, because it might still.have major structural issues. I say, get a good liferaft, keep it in the bay, when it starts leaking too much get it to a dock, keep it pumped out enough to float, find someone to buy it for $1, let them haul it out and use the wood for one of those University homecoming rally bonfires.

The students will be too drunk to notice that they're breathing in epoxy and burning polyethylene.

 
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Diarmuid

Super Anarchist
3,757
1,827
Laramie, WY, USA
bluenosejr - why should one only use stranded conductors on a boat? What is wrong with solid? Is it a corrosion issue?
Fatigue issue. Copper (and all copper alloys) work harden very easily & become brittle. A single fat strand is more prone to fatigue than a bundle of thin strands. You can only bend a piece of solid copper wire (like Romex) about 3 times to 90 degrees before it snaps. That's why you don't want it anywhere flex, vibration, or cyclical loading might come into play. Like on a boat.

Stranded wire will also fatigue, given enuf motion and time. So any sort of wire should be well supported and neatly dressed to prevent flex.

 

Steam Flyer

Sophisticated Yet Humble
45,607
10,282
Eastern NC
Bla - Bla - Bla

By the way, I have photos of my mates girlfriend's tits, do you want to see them? :D
Yes !!!!



Untitled.jpg

 

bluenosejr

New member
23
0
bluenosejr - why should one only use stranded conductors on a boat? What is wrong with solid? Is it a corrosion issue?
Fatigue issue. Copper (and all copper alloys) work harden very easily & become brittle. A single fat strand is more prone to fatigue than a bundle of thin strands. You can only bend a piece of solid copper wire (like Romex) about 3 times to 90 degrees before it snaps. That's why you don't want it anywhere flex, vibration, or cyclical loading might come into play. Like on a boat.

Stranded wire will also fatigue, given enuf motion and time. So any sort of wire should be well supported and neatly dressed to prevent flex.
That's what I would have said.

 

Timmys_Trick_Turkey

Super Anarchist
1,604
2
Someone said that the Lateen sail will probably be something the mother in law whipped up from patchwork quilt squares or polytarps. Hotrod is saving the greatest spectacle until last. That will be the hoisting of an old mainsail UPSIDE DOWN as a lateen sail. Its a given that FH wont be sailing to windward ever, so when he eventually is towed into a broad reach position with the UPSIDE DOWN mainsail already hoisted and sheeted on, what is likely to happen first ?

(a) The mast spears through the cabin roof and through the wheelchair seat because the bowman mother in law was in the sewer already, waiting for the kite drop ?

( b ) The verandah roof self furls and the verandah posts are automatically removed by the backstay, giving the helming station unsurpassed and momentary views of the self reefing rig...

(c ) The windward aft chainplate coachbolt decides to shear given its loading exceeds the walmart garden gate stress test.

(d) The tapered mast section realises its upside down, in relation to the mainsail loads and direction, and automatically self reefs.

(e) The lateen sheet turning block realises it is loaded beyond the walmart roller blind authorised load limits, and the flapping sheet wraps itself around the leeward rudder controls...

(f) The boat chinese gybes, the biggest bits head for china (straight down) and North Korea, thinking they are being gybed at again, launches in retaliation.

(g) Budda intervenes and teaches Rod the sacred sideslip, automatically self furling the leeward hull.

(h) Nothing at all. The boat just sits there motionless while rigging wire strands go ping ping ping. The anticlimax for the antichrist.

(i) The Kraken is summonsed by the low frequency hum of a finely tuned machine racing at 40 knots...

(j) The leeward rudderblade joins the pacific gyre ahead of schedule, and the windward one washes up as debris on the Japanese coastline ( thats karma).

(k) Spectator vessels are obliterated from the shrapnel of 2000 exploding cabin windows.

(L) The hulls fold like a taco shell and before it can crazy ivan even once, the sea closes over it all with barely a hiss. Moms foredeck glove (minus mum) floats to the surface where it is choked on by Flipper, the only talking dolphin in the world because he was laughing too much to notice (barsteds).

 
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βhyde

Super Anarchist
8,358
1,958
Beside Myself
Note that a Gunboat 60 (I checked their website) has 2 x 18 kW propulsion motors (total 36 kW of propulsion). 36 kW = 47 hp.
I think the weight is the determining factor when sizing motors.

The Gunboat 60 weighs in at 40,000lbs if I'm reading the website spec right. That's about 850lbs/hp.

HR's turbo FH only weighs 12,000lbs to 15,000lbs in "race mode" and has 18hp (2 x 9hp). So that's 830lbs/hp.

FH is going to motor faster than a Gunboat 60. Of course, with no daggerboards and a steering system that couldn't turn a bathtub, it's anyone's guess where the motors will take it.
I think the website is off. The brochure pdf says 27k light or 33k loaded. Seems more likely and in line with what I recall reading in previous reviews. 40k is just way too much given all that CF.

HR just needs 2 more outboards. Quads = awesome.
Yeah, I was just using some "Hotrod Logic" there. A pair of 9hp outboards with trolling props isn't going to move that thing more than 0.01 knots in any direction. However, once free of the bridge deck, it might be entertaining to watch the individual hulls motor around in slow circles in the harbor. Hope the Xbox doesn't get wet.

 


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