65- by 32-foot catamaran 3200sqft of living space

[Sand crab]

A (sensible?) question.

If you totally encapsulate 3/8 CDX ply in West System,how hard is it to penetrate the epoxy and get to the ply? We dont' get CDX over here, it's all graded differently and uses different woods. What I think is our equivalent is all softwood,would dent if you lean on it hard and a dewy night will warp and delaminate it. Will panel flexing do it, or would for example sitting the boat on some stones do it?

Is FH totally encapsulated in West system, or is it another type of epoxy? Or is it just epoxy inside and a thin skin of polyester resin with taped joins on the outside?

CDX is the standard construction grade plywood here and every single lumberyard and building center stocks it. It comes in various thicknesses and is really useful in many applications. It is a softwood ply which means it is made from fir, pine, hemlock etc. There's nothing wrong with it and just about every structure that has wood in it uses CDX however it is NOT generally used for boat building. It is pretty hard to dent unless you hit it with a hammer and holds up OK to rain on a job site. The X means it is rated for limited eXposure to moisture. It will not delaminate overnight if it gets wet and will be suitable for a longer period of eXposure to weather as you are building the structure. They also make an exterior verion of CDX which is more suited to long term exterior use. Hopefully HR used this. It is slightly better. OSB is now eclipsing ply because it is usually cheaper.

 

[nos4r2]

...

3) FH currently isn't leaking, so the 2x4's and framework currently isn't absorbing water from actual in-water contact....

From the Gougeon test article:

>This is an accelerated test because the Florida room conditions create water vapor, and water vapor is much more energetic than liquid water. This energized water vapor will penetrate a semipermeable membrane much faster than liquid water will.

They used water vapor because it penetrates faster, but that suggests liquid water penetrates, just more slowly.

That wasn't a test using 3/8 CDX though.

I'm assuming given my experience of the lowest grade ply over here, and referencing the uncoated or one coat data (I can't see him having used more than one coat) that it'll absorb water/water vapour far far faster than the materials used in the Gougeon test gven a 'florida room' type environment.

That or possibly the wicking of water up the ply boundaries as the glue dissolves could accelerate the absorbtion. (Is the glue in CDX water soluble?)

 

[nos4r2]

A (sensible?) question.

If you totally encapsulate 3/8 CDX ply in West System,how hard is it to penetrate the epoxy and get to the ply? We dont' get CDX over here, it's all graded differently and uses different woods. What I think is our equivalent is all softwood,would dent if you lean on it hard and a dewy night will warp and delaminate it. Will panel flexing do it, or would for example sitting the boat on some stones do it?

Is FH totally encapsulated in West system, or is it another type of epoxy? Or is it just epoxy inside and a thin skin of polyester resin with taped joins on the outside?

CDX is the standard construction grade plywood here and every single lumberyard and building center stocks it. It comes in various thicknesses and is really useful in many applications. It is a softwood ply which means it is made from fir, pine, hemlock etc. There's nothing wrong with it however it is NOT generally used for boat building.

So, it's what we'd call 'interior' ply then at a guess.

So, the glue will dissolve- rather than what we call 'Water and Boil Proof' which refers to the waterproof glue used and the amount of hardwood in it (it's usually used for boarding up windows), or proper Marine grade which is an all-hardwood,using waterproof glue, with lots of plies and almost no voids or knots.

 

[MisterMoon]

Regarding water penetration of in sheathes epoxy saturated CDX, it's pretty much irrelevant whether the epoxy offers much protection at all. Because the softwood pine veneers are rotary peeled, they will eventually check (characterized by tiny cracks in the direction of the grain) as the wood goes through moisture cycles. In plywood made from three layers of veneer, which is most 3/8", the checks will allow water to penetrate all three layers and the boat will leak. The first boat I built was from 3-layer ACX 1/4" fir plywood. It was not sheathed and it eventually developed this problem. The wood developed checks through both WEST system epoxy and the paint and water could be seen weeping up through the skin of the hull. Sheathing with fiberglass and epoxy would have prevented this. If FH isn't sheathed, it's going to start leaking pretty quickly. The god news it will take a good while before it starts rotting, especially if he stays in saltwater.

 

[Boston1]

Exterior - Exposure 1 Fully waterproof bond, but not intended for permanent ongoing exposure to moisture.

The glue is an exterior glue but the grade of wood is marginal at best.

Its absolutely not a marine grade ply.

 

[nos4r2]

Got it.

So, to sum it all up from what I see,it's more likely given the current postion of the FH, and assuming it will be towed again that the poor construction methods used are more likely to result in structural failure of the FH or leaks overwhelming the pumps than the CDX turning to mush.

Not saying the CDX won't fail, but it's more likely to fail when it's no longer part of the boat?

 

[Bitter Gnat]

Sorry to interrupt the plywood debate, but found this on the San Raphael PD Crime Blotter:



So, some sort of fight/assault occurred. Maybe no charges pressed yet?

 

[Sand crab]

If the FH is ever subjected to reasonable seas like outside the Goden Gate on just about any day I think the major issue will be the hull to bridgedeck connection. The FH will fold like a stack of cards. It will be sudden and violent. If the FH just sits in the bay then the CDX will be the issue.

 

[Steam Flyer]

Regarding water penetration of in sheathes epoxy saturated CDX, it's pretty much irrelevant whether the epoxy offers much protection at all. Because the softwood pine veneers are rotary peeled, they will eventually check (characterized by tiny cracks in the direction of the grain) as the wood goes through moisture cycles. In plywood made from three layers of veneer, which is most 3/8", the checks will allow water to penetrate all three layers and the boat will leak. The first boat I built was from 3-layer ACX 1/4" fir plywood. It was not sheathed and it eventually developed this problem. The wood developed checks through both WEST system epoxy and the paint and water could be seen weeping up through the skin of the hull. Sheathing with fiberglass and epoxy would have prevented this. If FH isn't sheathed, it's going to start leaking pretty quickly. The god news it will take a good while before it starts rotting, especially if he stays in saltwater.

Right, all good... but the clock didn't start ticking on Launch Day. That CDX has been exposed to weather for what, 2+ years? Then got coated on one side?

Frankly I'm not convinced HR was smart enough to paint the whole thing with epoxy, I bet he just did the seams. The stuff is expensive and FH was built for minimum coin. The pile of empty cans didn't even look big enough to do the hulls much less inside & out. Didn't see everything though... obviously... just being my usual little ray of sunshine.

By now it should be extremely obvious to HR and fambly that he has no clue how deal with a boat. It should also be extremely obvious that their Plan B to go back into Loch Lomond Marina ain't gonna happen. There is no way of guessing what he'll do, but hopefully tow the boat someplace where there are other maritime squatters and they can get some breathing room (plus a few pointers from their boating peers) before FH falls apart.

If FH Jr is running, then that at least gives them the option of getting off the mud flat.

My bet is that if the "HR'FH" is really His Rodness, then he'll be back on here screaming that it's our fault and we should give him money.

FB- Doug

edit to add- Another possibility: Guy LD rushes thru a successful IPO of Flyin' Hawhyinn Inc. they harvest goo-gobs of money and move to comparative luxury of a double-wide on the outskirts of Reno

 

[Sand crab]

The hulls were assembled and then trucked to LL. A lack of empty epoxy cans at LL would not be evidence one way or another. But you can see the epoxy all over the inside of the hulls on page 2 of this thread so I suspect it's all over the outside, too. What I'm more concerned about is the glass.

 

[Pertinacious Tom]

My recollection from the early daze of this thread is that FH has taped seams and a layer of chopped glass on the outside and epoxy on the inside.

 

[Sand crab]

The taped seams were just a guess. We don't know for sure.

 

[mad]

My recollection from the early daze of this thread is that FH has taped seams and a layer of chopped glass on the outside and epoxy on the inside.

Wonder if they tried epoxy on the chopped glass??

 

[AlienBowman]

I think their only hope for money is a reality TV show. Someone act like a producer and give them a couple of GoPro cameras.

 

[shaggy]

The hulls were assembled and then trucked to LL. A lack of empty epoxy cans at LL would not be evidence one way or another. But you can see the epoxy all over the inside of the hulls on page 2 of this thread so I suspect it's all over the outside, too. What I'm more concerned about is the glass.

So he had the hulls trucked in?? Did he just ring up uncle Lary and ask who he used?? Where were they built?? Cans and clues to the build quality probably there if anyone has the gumption to go take a look. B)

 

[Bitter Gnat]

This photo shows Hot Rod viewing a rather nice set of photos of the build. So, one would think the build was documented well. If only we could get a hold of that folder of photos.



Photo came from this article back in June:

http://www.marinij.com/ci_23414207/lib-at-large-father-son-finally-launch-big?source=pkg

 

[justhooked]

(used for boarding up windows)

Holy crap!! He hasn't used what we know as OSB, has he Nos?!

http://www.diy.com/nav/build/timber/sheet-materials/osb

*edit* - actually I'm thinking its probably more this stuff - http://www.diy.com/nav/build/timber/sheet-materials/plywood/Temperate-Softwood-Ply-Structural-L-2440-x-W-1220-x-T-18mm-9276280

btw - for you yanks, B&Q is the UK equivalent to your Home Depot!

 

[Steam Flyer]

The hulls were assembled and then trucked to LL. A lack of empty epoxy cans at LL would not be evidence one way or another. But you can see the epoxy all over the inside of the hulls on page 2 of this thread so I suspect it's all over the outside, too. What I'm more concerned about is the glass.

Ah, didn't realize the hulls were built elsewhere and trucked

HR really pissed away a big pile o' cash on this thing, huh?

FB- Doug

 

[dockrat]

West systems is Shit didn't use it and there is no chop on this boat layers of cloth

 

[Raz'r]

West is Shit? who knew? which brand did you use? I've used west a bunch over the years, but am trying something new(MAS) on my kids little strip planked OppiKat. So far, I can't tell the difference.