7 Broken Masts on N17's in one day!

[gavparker]

Nacra must be laughing all the way to the bank with this. I'm sure they're a fantastic boat to sail - the sailors love them.

But to say they're better value than what the T's were or an F18 option is simply wrong. Ongoing problems with foils, hulls and masts must be making these one of the most expensive boats to campaign ever.

I sailed the T worlds in Perth in 25 knots, a number of F18 nationals in 20+ knots and never see any of the failure levels these N17's present.

 

[darth reapius]

It is a pretty big joke Gav, insider shit going on, on that decision for sure.

Aren't the 17's more expensive than the new Windrush T's? Yet has there been more than 2 rig failures since the Marstrom rigs were introduced? More than a decade ago! (Has there even been any???)

And similar enough cost to a Flying Phantom, yet no where near the same level of boat (The tornado's took decades to be superseded, this boat took a year), heard that they are built to an impeccable level (The phantoms), and also would rock them round a course, and produce a better spectacle to watch?

 

[Tornado_ALIVE]

I think you would be hard pressed finding a HP cat that would be as cost efficient to campaign as the Big T however they were not really dumped because of price. The association just did not play the political game right. I still believe they are the best boat for the Games.

I have heard of at least one Marstrom mast failure though........ I believe they are yet to build a mast that can take the weight of a prime mover. . However I believe that mast had been repaired and is still sailing.

 

[F18 Sailor]

The Marstrom T was not the right choice for mixed teams, and that is what they wanted. I still think the F16 was a better choice than the N17, for a number of reasons, but the decision has been made.

As to the 7 mast breakages reported in Palma yesterday, well, frankly, from what I understand of the conditions, that could have happened in any fleet. It wasn't 20 kts, try 35kts with standing waves on the starting line. Kind of stinks that they were expensive carbon tubes, but from what I know, they aren't too much more than aluminum sticks to replace...

 

[Tcatman]

I still believe they are the best boat for the Games.

Agreed, I think you want a well built boat that is seaworthy and allows the skill of the sailors to decide the gold medal. The Tornado would have met those criteria for mixed teams. (The trials demonstrated that... New, sexy looking and quirky to sail won the selection)

What ISAF did was select a boat that ISAF controlled the rules completely.... (aka strict SMOD... no more code zero's going upwind), was sexy looking (curved board), had the Pete Melvin/Americas Cup pedigree (state of the art) and was brand new (completely untested) and supposedly much cheaper then the T (great spreadsheet magic astericks). Cheaper would grow the sport in the world by getting more countries into the game.

What we have is a half baked N17, that injects a huge amount of chance in getting to the gold medal. If you crash and break stuff including the teams because the boat is not quite state of the art seaworthy....that is a huge factor in the game.

ISAF screwed this up. Nacra knows the fix... T foil rudders....(They could grow their market with a seaworthy boat that weekend warriors wanted) ISAF buggered the selection and development progress.

 

[F18 Sailor]

^^^ I do agree with most of that, save the fact that the T is ideal for mixed crews, the sheet loads are higher than the N17 and the N17 sheet loads are higher than a F18. Not ideal for mixed teams!!!

Nacra has had a lot of ups and downs. The N20 was a great boat, but when pushed hard stuff broke and Nacra made some changes. The same happened on the Infusion, and has happened again on the 17. I'm not sure they have solved the daggerboard trunk issue for good, nor do I think they properly designed the boat to handle the abuse Olympic athletes will put on it. I also think they should have made the boat in carbon/epoxy, or at least carbon/vinylester. The cost of making a boat is in the labor, not the materials, even when you are trying save money this isn't the area to do it. Using lesser materials is a good way to sell more boats though!

 

[Just Sail]

"(The trials demonstrated that... New, sexy looking and quirky to sail won the selection)"

I was of the impression that the boat that was selected (N17) was the one most of the sailors at the trials liked best (by coincidence perhaps it was also the boat chosen). Is it possible they wanted SMOD to avoid the gear surprises and the arms race that can happen in Olympic sailing as the richer teams do more and more tested to find the best go fast gear? The cost may be high here but everyone is playing with the same toy(level playing field). I recognize that it is far from perfect. Changes can be made as far as I understand, but obviously after the 2016 games are over.

I was very upset when the T was booted. I have owned a T and like sailing it much more than the F18 I currently sail, The f18 is far more practical for me.

 

[Tcatman]

True the N17 with an F18 mast was the boat the sailors liked the best. (The one prototype mast broke)

True, the technical committee with Enrique Figoroa among others who liked the specs of the N17.

The specs suggested that the F16 was underpowered... and the T had much too high sheet loads for a mixed crew to have balance with crew and helm and this was the theory that led to the N17 selection.

True, the price of entry was a selection factor....

True, the argument for better materials /build technique in the build was made to control campaign costs and not persuasive to the selection process.

True, ISAF insisted on air tight One design rules to stop the culture of the T class innovating/cheating (YMMV) under the T class rules.

Would have been great if it worked out that way. The issue is less the selection process.... rather why was the boat not fixed in the first two years. That was a choice... It is a mistake to value crash and burn survivor racing in mulithulls over high speed tactical sailboat racing in multihulls. It does represent our niche of the sport particularly well.

 

[NacramanUK]

I think some who have posted in this thread should actually speak to some of the teams (as I have) who raced in this race that saw the mast breakages,as well as their support ribs (as I have) and check the facts before commenting .........the race over its duration had a massive variation in wind speeds (and direction) with peak gusts hitting 41knots.......

 

[NacramanUK]

And as for quoting prices of the 17 compared to the FP......well......you really do need to go check the facts....

 

[gavparker]

I wonder how much gear breakage there was in all the other fleets sailing that day?? Serious question if anyone's got some info. It will help put the N17 durability issue into some perspective.

This talk of loads being too high on T's and F18's is rubbish. The mainsheet is easier to sheet on the T than an F18. The sail area of the N17 is very similar to the F18 so similar loads. The only issue on either of these boats would be the spinnaker loads, which are overcome simply with a 2-1 set up on the sheets.

We sailed the T worlds in January that included a warm up event. 9 days sailing over 11 days total. 3 weeks later went to the Aus F18 nationals run over 4 days. Both myself and my brother pulled up worse for wear after the F18's than the T's. Given the amount of athletic work required to keep the N17 on the water and not tipping over I can't believe they're considered an easier boat to sail for a mixed crew.

Nahid Gaebler works the front of the T as well as anyone. She wouldn't be considered a "big" lady by any means. She is fit but so is any world class level sailor. It's a mute excuse.

It is a mistake to value crash and burn survivor racing in mulithulls over high speed tactical sailboat racing in multihulls.

Stop the gear failures and let the sailors win events on their merits.

 

[darth reapius]

And as for quoting prices of the 17 compared to the FP......well......you really do need to go check the facts....

What's the cost now for a N17? Didn't say they were the same, but said they were similar, I was under the assumption it was 30k and 40k retrospectively, but ones a bigger boat with more stuff, and the aus dollar has shot from over $1.05 to $0.75 so I can't say.

41 knots? Would love to see the official wind readings there

EDIT: Wind quote I've seen is "Sailing the Nacra today proved to be quite an athletic performance with gusts reaching over 30 knots. Only ten boats managed to finish the first race in both groups where capsizes and broken equipment was a common sight."

Feels a little shocking that those are the words used, and they're professional teams, with boats that can't be more than a couple years old at most

I think you would be hard pressed finding a HP cat that would be as cost efficient to campaign as the Big T however they were not really dumped because of price. The association just did not play the political game right. I still believe they are the best boat for the Games.

I have heard of at least one Marstrom mast failure though........ I believe they are yet to build a mast that can take the weight of a prime mover. . However I believe that mast had been repaired and is still sailing.

They're all repaired and working well to my knowledge (there was a couple that were in the pallet that got driven over by the truck), pretty amazing that in its own! But have any others failed...

 

[mustang__1]

how did the rigs fair on the Star course? oh right...

What about the laser course? at least those are "cheap", though.

Conditions like that shit is going to break. Underspecced dental floss control lines, blocks, suspect lashings, sails from flogging, sails from people going through them, etc. shit happens.

 

[darth reapius]

how did the rigs fair on the Star course? oh right...

What about the laser course? at least those are "cheap", though.

Conditions like that shit is going to break. Underspecced dental floss control lines, blocks, suspect lashings, sails from flogging, sails from people going through them, etc. shit happens.

How is a 105 year old design with an alloy spar and a 46 year old design with a free-standing alloy spar comparable to the N17 with a modern carbon rig? They are their own boats in their own...

We're all comparing similar boats, IMO 3 similar cats from cheaper to more expensive, slower to faster.

 

[gavparker]

how did the rigs fair on the Star course? oh right...

What about the laser course? at least those are "cheap", though.

Conditions like that shit is going to break. Underspecced dental floss control lines, blocks, suspect lashings, sails from flogging, sails from people going through them, etc. shit happens.

I don't know...that's why I asked the question.

Do you have the answers??

 

[NacramanUK]

And as for quoting prices of the 17 compared to the FP......well......you really do need to go check the facts....

What's the cost now for a N17? Didn't say they were the same, but said they were similar, I was under the assumption it was 30k and 40k retrospectively, but ones a bigger boat with more stuff, and the aus dollar has shot from over $1.05 to $0.75 so I can't say.

41 knots? Would love to see the official wind readings there

EDIT: Wind quote I've seen is "Sailing the Nacra today proved to be quite an athletic performance with gusts reaching over 30 knots. Only ten boats managed to finish the first race in both groups where capsizes and broken equipment was a common sight."

Feels a little shocking that those are the words used, and they're professional teams, with boats that can't be more than a couple years old at most

I think you would be hard pressed finding a HP cat that would be as cost efficient to campaign as the Big T however they were not really dumped because of price. The association just did not play the political game right. I still believe they are the best boat for the Games.

I have heard of at least one Marstrom mast failure though........ I believe they are yet to build a mast that can take the weight of a prime mover. . However I believe that mast had been repaired and is still sailing.

They're all repaired and working well to my knowledge (there was a couple that were in the pallet that got driven over by the truck), pretty amazing that in its own! But have any others failed...

Pricing:

I have just checked the SI FP site and the FP starts at US$ 39900 excluding tax and shipping for a white FP up to US$ 45,750 excluding tax and shipping for the zebra stripped boat and all prices in between for the various colour options......... http://www.phantom-international.com/flying-phantom/ I couldn't find pricing in Euros, GBPounds or Aus$ on the website......

The msrp for a new Nacra 17 today is Euro 20,680 excluding tax and shipping which converts to US$ 22,265 excluding tax and shipping...........

Wind speeds on day one:

I have contacted a friend of mine who was on the water on day 1 in a support rib (for one of the teams) who reported to me that gusts hit 41 knots at times and have asked to send me some official data on wind speed and direction during that first day of racing (race one in particular).......as soon as I have received it I will post it here........

 

[Tornado_ALIVE]

The T class has quiet a few mixed teams and Olympic female sailors would not have an issue with the loads

The T is significantly cheaper than a N17

In the conditions the N17 fleet saw, a Tornado would not have broken their carbon mast. I sailed in an Olympic class regatta that one day averaged 36 knots, gusting 41. We were the only T to fly a kite. The whole fleet, including other classes were cleaned up with the majority making it back to shore. We raced 2.5 races. First 2 races were low 30s gusting mid 30s and built for the last race.............

Not a single mast broke.

The T class played the political game wrong however the code zero had no bearing on the result.

The code zero was brought about because ISAF forced a change in the Tornado Class rules removing the 5 knot min wind limit for races. This then drove the development of sails for sub 5 knot sailing. This is NOT the Tornado class's fault and ISAF should take a little ownership here. At the end of the day the regatta was the windiest games in a long time and the code zero was a flop. If ISAF did not screw with the Tornado Class rules, we will not be having a conversation about code zeros

 

[Tornado_ALIVE]

Sorry, the Tornado is significantly cheaper than the N17 to campaign.

 

[darth reapius]

I have just checked the SI FP site and the FP starts at US$ 39900 excluding tax and shipping for a white FP up to US$ 45,750 excluding tax and shipping for the zebra stripped boat and all prices in between for the various colour options......... http://www.phantom-international.com/flying-phantom/ I couldn't find pricing in Euros, GBPounds or Aus$ on the website......

The msrp for a new Nacra 17 today is Euro 20,680 excluding tax and shipping which converts to US$ 22,265 excluding tax and shipping...........

Wind speeds on day one:

I have contacted a friend of mine who was on the water on day 1 in a support rib (for one of the teams) who reported to me that gusts hit 41 knots at times and have asked to send me some official data on wind speed and direction during that first day of racing (race one in particular).......as soon as I have received it I will post it here........

Can you actually send me the price list for the N17 then? I was under the impression that the boat was much more expensive as only yesterday I saw one advertised for sale for 27.8k euro (year old, well used boat packed on trailer ready to be shipped). (approx. 40k aud + shipping)

At the same time I saw a phantom, delivered and not sailed for sale due to owners change of situation, 40k usd, so about 50k aud

PS. To quote that the boat can be 5k more for a silly paint job is worse than them quoting that say... you dont even offer class legal custom zebra paint jobs on your N17's so the bloody things look identical HA-HA

PPS. What is the price for the mast?