70' Cruising Proa....Big Red Yacht

Anotherclarkey

New member
29
22
UK
I think it was built by Jeremie Fischer (known for 'Equilibre') in Martinique with the intention of competing in the Route du Rhum. There is an image gallery here:  https://imgur.com/a/bQse540 .  There is apparently another imgur gallery showing construction but it doesn't seem to be loading for me at the moment.

There is a short sailing video on YouTube but the poster (Jeremie's brother, I think) has asked that it not be shared.  Suffice to say that if you search for 'Unnamed Proa' you might be pleasantly rewarded.

Latest status seems to be:

i79mAva.jpeg


 

ProaSailor

dreaming my life away...
6,123
807
Oregon
There is a short sailing video on YouTube but the poster (Jeremie's brother, I think) has asked that it not be shared.
How silly!

wip.png

Cool boat.  From the angle of hull tracks in the water, it appears to need more leeway resistance (daggerboard?).

From the imgur page, cropped:

UnnamedProa.jpg

link to full size cropped image

 
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I think it was built by Jeremie Fischer (known for 'Equilibre') in Martinique with the intention of competing in the Route du Rhum. There is an image gallery here:  https://imgur.com/a/bQse540 .  There is apparently another imgur gallery showing construction but it doesn't seem to be loading for me at the moment.

There is a short sailing video on YouTube but the poster (Jeremie's brother, I think) has asked that it not be shared.  Suffice to say that if you search for 'Unnamed Proa' you might be pleasantly rewarded.

Latest status seems to be:

That looks fun! 

 

Sidecar

…………………………
3,236
1,628
Tasmania
Cool boat.  From the angle of hull tracks in the water, it appears to need more leeway resistance (daggerboard?).
Probably. There is not much hull in the water. There looks to be a daggerboard/rudder aft on the starboard bow, but no apparent sign of one forward on the port bow? Hence the mods from red sails to a blue sail?

But could also have been photo’d whilst changing course?

 
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Anotherclarkey

New member
29
22
UK
Probably. There is not much hull in the water. There looks to be a daggerboard/rudder aft on the starboard bow, but no apparent sign of one forward on the port bow? Hence the mods from red sails to a blue sail?

But could also have been photo’d whilst changing course?
That is a still from the video clip. During that film the boat seems to be  constantly, gently, rounding up with the aft sail sheeted in - just before the end the foresail shakes and the aft sheet is let go.  In the picture with the blue sail there are boards at both ends but they seem very small and must be aimed more at trimming CLR than providing substantial leeway resistance?

 

ProaSailor

dreaming my life away...
6,123
807
Oregon
But could also have been photo’d whilst changing course?
I was referring to the one minute video where it looks like their heading was steady but they were slipping to leeward.  Why would they be turning to windward to set up for a shunt?  Too bad the video stops just as they were about to shunt.  Very cool looking boat.

 

Russell Brown

Super Anarchist
1,755
1,424
Port Townsend WA
I'll bet it sails great. Anything that long, narrow, and light would have to. The ama has too little volume for bigger conditions and for carrying weight in my opinion. With no pod, water ballasting would be necessary.

 

TwoBirds

Member
194
88
Gulf Islands
Rael Dobkins built a crabclaw schooner a few years back, Crystal Clear I think, said it was great fun until the wind got up over 15 knots or so, then not so much, mind you he was singlehanding, so a bit ambitious maybe.  





Be interesting to know whether they went from 2 crabclaws to one or vice versa

 

Russell Brown

Super Anarchist
1,755
1,424
Port Townsend WA
I sailed on a crab claw rigged proa in New Zealand and was very surprised to learn that they can flog. When they flog the lower spar flails around and it's kind of alarming. Not that I don't like them as a result. The boat was a ripper. The "Toroa" Had the most amazing motion in a short chop and around 20 knots of wind.

 
I sailed on a crab claw rigged proa in New Zealand and was very surprised to learn that they can flog. When they flog the lower spar flails around and it's kind of alarming. Not that I don't like them as a result. The boat was a ripper. The "Toroa" Had the most amazing motion in a short chop and around 20 knots of wind.
Shunting that huge crabclaw in heavy air might be a challenge. The simplicity and efficiency of crab claws has always interested me - maybe a Gibbons rig would be easier to manage - however I have a feeling the crabclaw is better to windward.  

Maybe a smaller proa, like free radical, would be a fun platform to experiment with.. 

 

TwoBirds

Member
194
88
Gulf Islands
I suspect shunting even a small crabclaw in heavy winds could get "Interesting" pretty quickly, even without a canting mast to deal with, I'm planning on experimenting with them next summer when the water is warmer :)  but on a canting A-frame mast so I have a bit more control.

I actually built my proa to experiment with, info on the web being sparse and often contradictory.

The problem with the Gibbons rig and non canting rigs in general is that the CE is too far aft and tends to push the aft end over before the boat can gain enough headway for the foils to generate sufficient lift to keep the boat out of irons, I've been trying to compensate with a large sliding leeboard on the ama, low rocker,  and balanced rigs with very limited success thus far.
I think that an easy fix for the Gibbons would be to hang the sail from a parrel attached aboud 25% from either end of the spar so the sail could be pulled forward on the mast when shunting instead of the mast canting .

harryproa may actually have an advantage in theory here, having the weight to windward creates drag that tends to rotate the boat into the wind so it might be slower to go into irons coming out of a shunt giving the foils more time to generate lift, seems like a small upside all considered though, drag being, well, a drag.

I've been serious considering shelving the idea and going to a sloop or schooner, but maybe I'll play around with that a bit next time I'm out, rig an oar so I can generate drag to windward and see if shunts go better, I'm not adverse to learning from the mistakes of others.

 

KONeill

Member
147
75
I think that an easy fix for the Gibbons would be to hang the sail from a parrel attached aboud 25% from either end of the spar so the sail could be pulled forward on the mast when shunting instead of the mast canting .
Man, more degrees of freedom is the opposite of what you need.

 

TwoBirds

Member
194
88
Gulf Islands
Are you thinking Gibbons rig? basically a latteen rig with the non-canting mast in the middle? Or the Dierkings rig you had before the schooner?

Man, more degrees of freedom is the opposite of what you need.


IMG_20201219_114525620.jpg

Wow, talk about obscure, couldn't find a single picture online.

 
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Sidecar

…………………………
3,236
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Tasmania
The problem with the Gibbons rig and non canting rigs in general is that the CE is too far aft and tends to push the aft end over before the boat can gain enough headway for the foils to generate sufficient lift to keep the boat out of irons, I've been trying to compensate with a large sliding leeboard on the ama, low rocker,  and balanced rigs with very limited success thus far.

 harryproa may actually have an advantage in theory here, having the weight to windward creates drag that tends to rotate the boat into the wind so it might be slower to go into irons coming out of a shunt giving the foils more time to generate lift, seems like a small upside all considered though, drag being, well, a drag.
Rounding up into irons before you get enough speed is a slow speed balance problem. Having a large draggy ama  to windward can only make it worse.

My proa has a windward staysail, which set by itself gives leehelm. Luff it enough and it’s drag will pull the boat into irons. And I have a relatively small ama.

The location of lateral resistance relative to the CE of the rig is as, if not more, important than the longitudinal relationship. In both cases, the more aligned, the easier to balance.

To reduce the lateral balance problem you need to get your rudders as far apart and as far to leeward as possible and have enough inherent hull lateral resistance and directional stability.

Little wonder most traditional proas have small low resistance log amas and were leeward oar steered with the helmsman hanging off the back of the boat.

 
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TwoBirds

Member
194
88
Gulf Islands
I don't actually have rudders yet, the sliding leeboard handles steering well enough that shifting weight does most of the rest and a paddle gets the job done when all else fails :)  I usually have to paddle when shunting to keep the boat straight till the leeboard bites.

I'd really prefer to use a proa specific rig but they tend to resemble kites loosely attached to the boat which makes them problematic at best in heavy winds

I've been trying to find more info on the canting A-frame mast John Pizzey used on one/some of his proas, as well as canting fore and aft it could be canted to leeward to spill wind in gusty weather and might be just the thing to tame the crabclaw and Dierking rigs while still letting them do all those amazing things they do.

I've always wondered, how do you keep the windward staysail from spoiling the airflow to the main? did you get the idea from John Pizzey's atlantics?

 

Sidecar

…………………………
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1,628
Tasmania
I've always wondered, how do you keep the windward staysail from spoiling the airflow to the main? did you get the idea from John Pizzey's atlantics?
Upwind, it doesn’t.

They behave as two separate sails and theoretically at least, the jib improves mainsail efficiency due to biplane positive stagger (ie leebowing). Ditto deep downwind, once I can get the jib leech top to leeward of the mainsail luff to regain positive stagger and where in a conventional rig, an aft sail increasingly blankets a forward sail. 

The boat does best upwind (boat speed ~ = TWS up to ~ 10 knots and ~ 11.7 knots max so far) and near DDW, I am way above the polars (~13.7 knots max so far). All in less than 15 knots TWS gusting 20. And ~ 13.7 knots VMG DDW is pretty handy also, especially if it helps to avoid gybe shunting.

In between, the sails are in varying degrees of negative stagger (ie in dirty air) and performance is not so good, but I am working on it. I will fly a screecher off the bow on long legs eventually, which will maintain positive stagger to the mainsail itself and to the rig as a whole somewhat longer, even if I have to drop the windward jib.

I wasn’t aware that John Pizzey has tried a biplane rig until Paul Napper mentioned it after I had already built it. Sadly, I was unable to compare notes with John before he passed away. He seemed to be either unimpressed or bored with the idea, and move on to other things......

My main reasons for going biplane were avoiding duplication of headsails and/or trips to the bow, and faster, easier shunting. From that perspective it works perfectly. And I would rather be faster upwind and shunting at the expense of reaching, than the other way round.

 
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KONeill

Member
147
75
Are you thinking Gibbons rig? basically a latteen rig with the non-canting mast in the middle? Or the Dierkings rig you had before the schooner?
The issues with the rig didn't really depend on the changes Gary made, IMO. I never sailed without a boom, but I fixed the mast vertically a few times with my original white sail. It didn't make much difference. The issues I had centered around a big sail swinging around one point of contact at the top of the mast. Making that point of contact slide around seems like it would not make the situation better.

But who knows. As you say, I used the Dierking rig which has a boom. Maybe if you try a boomless version it'll work for you. It's fun to play with, anyway.

 

guerdon

Anarchist
My Salamba, should push the limits of proa evolution.  It has a full carbon rig ,new Blast sail, Harkin blocks and a windward skyhook sidestay on brails, that can tilt the mast to windward like a windsurfer.  Might as well use the sail to lift the main hull out of the water at speed.  I will keep. you posted.    Health has slowed down my sail time, ,but this spring should be the bomb.

 

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