70' Cruising Proa....Big Red Yacht

[TwoBirds]

The issues with the rig didn't really depend on the changes Gary made, IMO. I never sailed without a boom, but I fixed the mast vertically a few times with my original white sail. It didn't make much difference. The issues I had centered around a big sail swinging around one point of contact at the top of the mast. Making that point of contact slide around seems like it would not make the situation better.

But who knows. As you say, I used the Dierking rig which has a boom. Maybe if you try a boomless version it'll work for you. It's fun to play with, anyway.

Sorry, I tend to think of the Gibbons and Gary Dierkings version of the Gibbons as two different rigs, My bad.

I was thinking that when I pulled the tack forward and down to the bow of the boat it would pull the parrel tight on the (fixed) mast so the mast/sail connection would be fairly secure once tied down, but I see what you mean, during the actual shunt while the sail is only loosely secured at one corner it could get pretty wild in any more than a bit of wind, I guess if a fix was easy someone would have done it already.

I'll play around with the proa rigs and probably have fun, but I doubt I'll use them for anything but light air or spares, the Dierking/Gibbons looks like it would go together quickly and stow neatly.

After watching your boat I'm seriously considering putting in mast steps/partners in the bows so I can try a schooner as well, on top of fixing my balance problem  being able to walk from one end to the other instead of scrambling across the tramp would be a huge plus with my bad back.

My Salamba, should push the limits of proa evolution.  It has a full carbon rig ,new Blast sail, Harkin blocks and a windward skyhook sidestay on brails, that can tilt the mast to windward like a windsurfer.  Might as well use the sail to lift the main hull out of the water at speed.  I will keep. you posted.    Health has slowed down my sail time, ,but this spring should be the bomb.

Is this you?  looks like fun

 

[guerdon]

That is. the designer and. his boat in France, with traditional rig.   Mine has a rig like a giant windsurfer.  Craigslist hooked me up with a bundle of North, Finnish uni carbon spars that were joined to make the monster rig.  Aloha, Guerdon.

 

[harryproa]

Jeremie contacted me about the crab claw (more correctly, oceanic lateen, the crab claw has the big hollow roach) rig on the mini cargo proa.   He is a sailmaker, has tried a lot of things, reckons he has it pretty well sorted,  but the most important part is the boom shape and bend, with which I agree.  The proa guys in Poland use bent spars and pocket luffs, reckon they perform well, but there are no performance numbers and they don't race.    

Jeremie entered the boat in the Route de Rhum, was accepted by the race organisers, was told the authorities would alter the rules, but they didn't, so he did not compete.  The boat in the pics looks like it could use bigger foils and some righting moment.  

Shunting a crab claw is difficult in any breeze until you learn how.  The locals make it look like ballet.  Grab the upper boom in one hand, take a step on a small boat, a couple on a large one, grab the mast, turn and another step and it is done.  Stronger breeze is no harder than light breeze as it is all about balance and using the wind.  Being beam on at the beginning is critical.     

There have been attempts by westerners to remove this dance from crab claw sailing with tracks along the lee side of the hull.  The one I sailed 20 years ago worked well, but the expense and weight are significant.  The mini cargo proa in the Marshalls used a rope traveller, but once I had seen how it should be done, I was embarrassed enough to remove it.

There is a plywood Harryproa ready to launch in Germany which has a crab claw.  The builder is a foiling A cat sailor, worked with me in the Marshalls, has done a lot of research, including models, reckons they are the way to go for cruising.    

Harryproas shunt well because the windward hull is designed for the load it carries, it is nothing to do with the extra weight there.  The air drag of the windward hull makes little or no difference in a shunt as the wind is from the beam until you get going.    A stalled dagger board (almost inevitable, during a  reach to reach shunt) acts like a brake.  If it is in the ww hull, it is added wetted surface, plus the stalled drag is trying to luff the boat.     

A better solution is two large rudders mounted where you can see them and no daggerboard.  This allows you to get the water flow moving over the rudders as soon as the boat starts moving in the new direction.  Once flow is attached, steering is easy.

Another option is a rig with the coe forward, although this then becomes unbalanced when the boat is sailing.  The schooner overcomes this as the forward sail is sheeted on first while tack shunting, then the aft one to balance the rig.   Gybe shunting speeds up considerably if you sheet on the fore sail first.     On a una rig, a similar result is achieved by lifting the relevant rudder.  

Wetsnail

An alloy mast that was 6 times bigger/stronger/heavier to allow for fatigue seems unlikely.  Another 6 reasons why unstayed carbon masts are better/lighter and, if you build them yourself, cheaper.

Janet,

I can see how you relate to "the soulless minions of orthodoxy", but there is no evidence you "get" either Harryproas or the cargo proa.

I wish you would "argue" (discussing would be better) about the boats.  It would be so much more interesting than continually spouting your view on me not racing Bucket List.

Enjoy your racing.  If you ever design and build an innovative boat, you will realise how comparatively shallow the race thrill real[SIZE=small]ly is.[/SIZE]

The Harry haters,

No comment about Rick Willoughby's description of Harrypoa sailing, your allegations that Steve C or Russ was lying or the other points in post #211 or #215?    This is great if you have accepted that what you said was incorrect, not so much if you are ignoring it so you can brown troll and bring them up as "new" points in a couple of weeks time.

 

[TwoBirds]

Yes Janet, stop doing the exact same things Rob does to everybody else to Rob, it's just not fair.

 

[Russell Brown]

The Harry haters,

No comment about Rick Willoughby's description of Harrypoa sailing, your allegations that Steve C or Russ was lying or the other points in post #211 or #215?    This is great if you have accepted that what you said was incorrect, not so much if you are ignoring it so you can brown troll and bring them up as "new" points in a couple of weeks time.

You are a piece of work,  Rob. You spout absolute bullshit, twist other people's words, and tell outright lies. The scary thing is that the shit you say sounds logical and some people actually believe you.

How about you just turn off the bullshit? If you want to spread hatred and lies, keep them on your side of the pond. 

 

[JanetC Gougeon32]

Janet,

I can see how you relate to "the soulless minions of orthodoxy", but there is no evidence you "get" either Harryproas or the cargo proa.

I wish you would "argue" (discussing would be better) about the boats.  It would be so much more interesting than continually spouting your view on me not racing Bucket List.

Enjoy your racing.  If you ever design and build an innovative boat, you will realise how comparatively shallow the race thrill real[SIZE=small]ly is.[/SIZE]

The Harry haters,

No comment about Rick Willoughby's description of Harrypoa sailing, your allegations that Steve C or Russ was lying or the other points in post #211 or #215?    This is great if you have accepted that what you said was incorrect, not so much if you are ignoring it so you can brown troll and bring them up as "new" points in a couple of weeks time.

It takes more than histrionics, melodrama and anecdotes to win races. I doubt I'll ever tire of racing because "for me" the best part is being a part of a shared experience with other sailors - not necessarily "discussing" the theoretical performance predictions of unfinished designs while staring at my phone.  

I can see how this "proa perseveration" can go on forever.  I sincerely hope to see a harry proa in the 2023 race to Alaska. 

It's Christmas Rob, enjoy the holiday with your family. 

 

[TwoBirds]

animation of an easy shunt crabclaw rig.

 

[MRS OCTOPUS]

No comment about Rick Willoughby's description of Harrypoa sailing,

So that we may fully appreciate the weight of Rick Willoughby's description of Harry proa SAILING, please Rob can you give us an outline/overview of Ricks

SAILING career. What one design classes, offshore events  etc did he compete in and how did he go. What is his Blue Water mile tally, etc etc..... You know the drill.

Thanks in advance.

 

[TwoBirds]

ever notice that if you were to chop about a third off the forward end of a crabclaw the remainder would essentially be a lug sail?

 

[Mal Smith]

ever notice that if you were to chop about a third off the forward end of a crabclaw the remainder would essentially be a lug sail?

I think what is interesting about the crab claw sail is that with only a flat piece of material and two light spars, you get a pretty good twisted airfoil, assuming the sail bellies out to an approximately conical shape. I'm not sure the same could be said of the lug sail, which would probably require some shape to be cut into it for best results.

Side view:



Plan view:

 

[TwoBirds]

apparently lugsails evolved from lateen sails which explains the resemblance.

Lugsails get much of their shape from rounding at the head and foot same as the crabclaw does, they need a lot more to keep the downhaul from pulling all the draught out of the sail though.

Crabclaws really are an amazing rig considering their simplicity, unfortunately they owe a lot of their versatility to the canting mast which for me is a non starter, the spars get pretty crazy once you get much over 100 sq ft, and they're a huge pain to reef and doing so spoils their shape, it's easier just to carry extra sails in various sizes which isn't very easy on a proa. 

here's a research paper done on 10 traditional crabclaw shapes

always thought this was a great endorsment for the crab claw rig

 

[TwoBirds]

from the research paper on traditional oceanic rigs I linked to above

"3. Lewis noted that mat sails make stiffer and better shaped aerofoils. He further
wrote that in Ninigo, cloth sails were used for day-to-day fishing and mat sails
for racing (Lewis 1999: 29, 30)."

must say that's a real surprise, be interesting to find out how they wove their sails.

 

[TwoBirds]

Wonder if one could reef a crabclaw neatly by making a second boom pocket and shifting the boom to the second pocket and brailing the slack up under the boom.

wouldn't be very handy, should give much better control over the shape of the reefed sail though.

 

[harryproa]

So that we may fully appreciate the weight of Rick Willoughby's description of Harry proa SAILING, please Rob can you give us an outline/overview of Ricks SAILING career. What one design classes, offshore events  etc did he compete in and how did he go. What is his Blue Water mile tally, etc etc..... You know the drill.

Thanks in advance.

I'm not sure what Rick's one design or offshore experience is or what difference it makes to a simple explanation of a day's sailing on a cruiser, but Rick is as near a genius as anyone I know, has designed the world's fastest human powered boat, helped me, Russ, Sidecar and many others with free propulsion advice, knows more practical and theoretical sailing stuff than most, has heaps of original ideas and doesn't mind experimenting to prove/disprove them.  We get on well.   When Russ asked for Harryproa sailing experience, I quoted Rick.  Russ reckoned it was bullshit (Post #355 Best Boat for Race to Alaska thread).     

If you want a racer's opinion,  Paul Larsen (Sail Rocket, Team Phillips, etc) sailed on the same boat, thinks the cargo proa is cool, wants to race it to Hobart and keeps the rendering on his screensaver to remind him to KISS.  BTW, some interesting developments on the cargo proa, follow them on http://harryproa.com/?p=3788

The guy with more high level offshore race experience than most on this thread (post #137) reckons Harryproas are a pretty good combination of low cost, comfort, safety, easy to build and sail, decent performance and sensible use of space.  ;-)

Or, do what most people do.  Visit www.harryproa.com, read the specs and the information, study the photos and videos, analyse it, and ask questions (either here or direct to me at [email protected]) about anything that doesn't make sense to you.  Then decide for yourself. 

There is some more from Rick on Harryproas on the Race to Alaska Best Boat thread, post #446.

You spout absolute bullshit, twist other people's words, and tell outright lies.

Where and when?

The scary thing is that the shit you say sounds logical and some people actually believe you.

Based on interest in Harryproas and the increasing number of people on the forums calling you out for trolling me (the latest is Post #40  https://www.boatdesign.net/threads/80-foot-cargo-harryproa.64736/page-6),  it is "most" people believe me, not "some".  

To them, the scary thing is that you and your acolytes can't/won't acknowledge the logic makes sense, appear to be afraid to discuss it and have to resort to personal abuse and brown trolling.  

How about you just turn off the bullshit? 

You accused Rick Willoughby of bullshitting (Post #355 R2A thread), not me.  

The others accused you of lying in Cruising World (post #38, this thread) , I thought you were telling the truth (Post #211).  You don't seem to know whether you were or not.

If you want to spread hatred and lies, keep them on your side of the pond. 

Where and when have I spread either?     I don't lie and I don't hate anyone.   Ryan (Jzerro) and I get along well (away from the forums), as will Rob Z (Sidecar) and I when we can meet in person.   I pity you and I have no idea who 2 Birds and Janet are and care less.    

Maybe compare the tone of my posts with yours and the other Harry haters and brown trolls and decide who is spreading what.

 

[Russell Brown]

Facts are facts and the facts remain: You are selling an unproven concept. Instead of building & thoroughly testing before selling your designs, you have marketed wild claims and flashy images. Half the cost & weight? Faster? There is no proof of that, just your words. In fact, there is no proof that your boats sail well at all, let alone quickly. Do they go upwind? do they steer downwind in big waves? Has one ever been thrashed in real ocean conditions and come out okay? Why isn't anyone but you willing to speak for your boats? If they are good, then why can't the boats speak for themselves? I know there are plenty of Harry proas sailing, so how can there be no testimony from owners who are cruising or racing them?

I think it's a flawed concept. I've never said that about your boats before, in fact I have never said anything critical about them on the forums, only asked for some form of proof to verify your claims. I have offered to post my views on the Harryproa concept, which you didn't seem excited about and I've respected that. I do have them ready if you change your mind

Your marketing methods leave a lot to be desired. Denigrating other proa designers (even Newick, but mostly me). Fabricating interviews with my crew from a race. Making claims that cannot be true about your own boats and a myriad of things you have said about mine that aren't true. Why do you feel the need to be this way? No one would have bothered you in your endeavors if you hadn't been spouting such bullshit about our boats. Why should you care if someone said my mast would fall down if caught aback? I'm not selling proa designs and never have. I'm not in competition with you. I do detest false advertising. I think you probably believe a lot of what you say, but that doesn't make it true.

 

[MRS OCTOPUS]

I'm not sure what Rick's one design or offshore experience is 

Ha, that’s funny.

Man with no sailing experience critiques sail boat for free lunch.

 

[Zonker]

Has one ever been thrashed in real ocean conditions and come out okay?

I do recall this statement from Rob. Any other ocean crossings Rob?  

"The 12m sailed from Aus to NZ, spent 3 days in 45 knots, had some easily fixed damage, nothing to do with the design philosophy."

http://www.multihulls4us.com/forums/showthread.php?3817-A-little-bit-different

 

[MRS OCTOPUS]

I do recall this statement from Rob. Any other ocean crossings Rob?  

"The 12m sailed from Aus to NZ, spent 3 days in 45 knots, had some easily fixed damage, nothing to do with the design philosophy."

http://www.multihulls4us.com/forums/showthread.php?3817-A-little-bit-different

Ha, thats funny too.

Aroha started to break up on that trip.

If it wasn't for the skill, seamanship and resourcefullnes of the skipper it may have turned out very differently.

From memory it wasnt Robs fault, apparently.

It may have been the builder/business partners fault, apparently.

I'm sure Rob will fill us in on the blanks shortly.

 

[TwoBirds]

ahhhh, the elusive Harry Hater, often found peacefully coexisting with like minded individuals such as unicorn haters, vampire haters, and pushmepullyou haters...

It's never robs fault.

 

[Zonker]

Wow. Had no idea, just recalled a vague posting from long ago. So I googled the boat name and found this on Rob's site. http://harryproa.com/?p=1759

I'm not a Rob hater. I think he's an interesting fellow with too many good or strange ideas that he seems to try out on other people. And tries them all in a new boat such as his current cargo boat. He is very good at self promotion but follow through and final execution are not his strengths.
 

"The trip from Coffs harbour (Aus east coast) to Houhora (NZ north east coast) via Lord Howe Island was interesting. The boat performed well apart from a couple of minor breakages and the leeward hull flexing issue.....

It settled down after 36 hrs. About 200 miles out from Lord Howe the leeward hull started flexing badly in a beam chop. I was very concerned, turning back wasn’t a good option – strong westerly forecast to the west and the island didn’t seem like a place to do repairs. The wind dropped so we decided to use the jib halyard as a shroud. Worked a treat so decided to continue and take it easy. So did the rest of the trip under main only, with 1 and 2 reefs in the whole way. I was amazed how well she went, approaching North Cape had 18 – 20 knots a bit behind the beam, couldn’t slow her, had 2 reefs in still doing 12 knots on the gps. This is with heaps of food and water and gear onboard. It took 7 days L H to Houhora (730 n miles). Only problem we had was she would occasionally round up into the wind when going to windward. Still haven’t quite figured that one out."