70' Cruising Proa....Big Red Yacht

[TwoBirds]

Nobody is fighting with rob, Rob has been an absolute bully for decades, the only way to stop a bully is to stand up to them.

There are no camps in the proa world just rob and his bullshit with a few people who buy into his poor little me act and don't really understand the history and just how venomous robs little digs and barbs are, and everybody else.

You multihull guys got miffed when rob started flogging his proa plans in the r2ak thread, he pulls that crap in every single proa thread.

enough is enough, if rob is only  here to sell harryproa then he should buy an add and sell it there, no one could argue with him in his add thread.

And keep in mind, rob is the only one that's in this for the money, everybody else just wants to talk about proas without him blowing up our threads.

 

[Guvacine]

Never said you should care and doubt either of us do.  Nor do I care if you continue your fight w Rob or not.  Makes no difference to me.  Carry on.

I am interested in multihulls and have followed multihull-related threads on SA for many years. Whenever Rob Denney, or one of his sock puppets, turns up in a thread, its all over. He destroys every thread he joins. If SA would just ban Denney (and his socks), this would be a better place to talk boats.

And yes Wess loves to play the innocent bystander but he is basically a troll.

 

[Groucho Marx]

Hyper sensitive, beyond angry, US  proa freaks, your asinine, demented posting history sucks defecation.

Are you not embarrassed?

Rhetorical question.

 

[Sidecar]

Hyper sensitive, beyond angry, US  proa freaks, your asinine, demented posting history sucks defecation.

Thank you for your polite, eloquent and constructive contribution to this thread.......

 

[ProaSailor]

Thank you for your polite, eloquent and constructive contribution to this thread.......

You forgot the purple font. 

It's the fallacy of "bothsidesism", AKA the balance fallacy, for those who don't understand the issues and consider themselves neutral arbiters, above it all.

https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Balance_fallacy

The balance fallacy is an informal logical fallacy that occurs when two sides of an argument are assumed to have equal or comparable value regardless of their respective merits, which (in turn) can lead to the conclusion that the answer to a problem is always to be found between two extremes. The latter is effectively an inverse false dilemma, discarding the two extremes rather than the middle.

While the rational position on a topic is often between two extremes, this cannot be assumed without actually considering the evidence. Sometimes the extreme position is actually the correct one, and sometimes the entire spectrum of belief is wrong, and truth exists in an orthogonal direction that hasn't yet been considered.

"There's a kind of notion that everyone's opinion is equally valid. My arse! A bloke who's been a professor of dentistry for 40 years doesn't have a debate with some eejit who removes his teeth with string and a door!"

 

[gui]

You proa guys make the average anarchy posters look like saints. Here's an actual comment about the Big Red Boat,Gary has sold the boat. 

View attachment 419625

Such a cool looking boat, for those of us with a proa obsession problem! Any videos of the red boat sailing in a blow?

 

[TwoBirds]

None that I've ever been able to find, I think most of the videos of this boat were posted on the first page of the thread.

 

[TwoBirds]

Hyper sensitive, beyond angry, US  proa freaks, your asinine, demented posting history sucks defecation.

Are you not embarrassed?

Rhetorical question.

After twenty years of rob's relentless trolling are you at all surprised that people are reacting badly?

are you not embarrassed for your countrymans underhanded sales tactics?

There are no sides, no camps, no war, unless you put rob and his bullshit on one side and the victims of his trolling on the other.

Because the reality is that there is no fight between Rob Denny and Russell Brown, it's just another one of the myths rob has created to sell harryproa by provoking russel into defending himself, and it's time this myth was laid to rest too.

 

[Anotherclarkey]

After twenty years of rob's relentless trolling are you at all surprised that people are reacting badly?

are you not embarrassed for your countrymans underhanded sales tactics?

There are no sides, no camps, no war, unless you put rob and his bullshit on one side and the victims of his trolling on the other.

Because the reality is that there is no fight between Rob Denny and Russell Brown, it's just another one of the myths rob has created to sell harryproa by provoking russel into defending himself, and it's time this myth was laid to rest too.

Denney wasn't even on this thread before the snide remarks started in post #32.  It seems rather sad if you have to goad your 'troll' into turning up.

 

[TwoBirds]

I have had only one memorable backwinding which happened while I was asleep. I woke to a lot of wind and the main against the back stay. The main came down, the jib went up and away we went.

Please don't encourage you-know-who to rail against all who don't believe in the true path in proas.  

Those Snide remarks are more like a antelope looking over his shoulder for the stalking lions, I'm sure Russell would love to be able to post without having to worry about rob picking his post appart for ammo to troll him with, hardly surprising that he's developed reflexes after 20 years of being stalked by rob.

Denney wasn't even on this thread before the snide remarks started in post #32.  It seems rather sad if you have to goad your 'troll' into turning up.

You know, you sound a lot like denny there, he uses post numbers instead of just quoting the post too, I suspect it's something to do with the way he keeps his notes. are you rob on another account?

 

[Solarbri]

Those Snide remarks are more like a antelope looking over his shoulder for the stalking lions, I'm sure Russell would love to be able to post without having to worry about rob picking his post appart for ammo to troll him with, hardly surprising that he's developed reflexes after 20 years of being stalked by rob.

You know, you sound a lot like denny there, he uses post numbers instead of just quoting the post too, I suspect it's something to do with the way he keeps his notes. are you rob on another account?

Simmer down there twobirds. 
not everybody sees it your way. 

 

[Anotherclarkey]

Those Snide remarks are more like a antelope looking over his shoulder for the stalking lions, I'm sure Russell would love to be able to post without having to worry about rob picking his post appart for ammo to troll him with, hardly surprising that he's developed reflexes after 20 years of being stalked by rob.

You know, you sound a lot like denny there, he uses post numbers instead of just quoting the post too, I suspect it's something to do with the way he keeps his notes. are you rob on another account?

20 years of trolling and you can't even spell his name.  Isn't it a bit paranoid to assume I am Rob despite the fact that I live literally half a world away?  Is it so hard to believe that people who have endured this circle jerk for 20 years may find the 'US proa freaks' so pleasantly described by Groucho the more tiresome side of the argument?

 

[TwoBirds]

Simmer down there twobirds. 
not everybody sees it your way. 

I'd love to simmer down, will in fact simmer down, as soon as rob stops being an ass, in fact if rob stops trolling I'll even put a link to harryproa in my sig.

I'm sure lots of people don't agree with me, hardly surprising, rob has gotten very good at what he's been doing, 20 years of practice will do that.

Before you stand up for this guy read the following conversation between rob and Mrs Octopus and the bit I'll be posting from psychology today and see if it applies.

So that we may fully appreciate the weight of Rick Willoughby's description of Harry proa SAILING, please Rob can you give us an outline/overview of Ricks

SAILING career. What one design classes, offshore events  etc did he compete in and how did he go. What is his Blue Water mile tally, etc etc..... You know the drill.

Thanks in advance.

Ha, that’s funny.

Man with no sailing experience critiques sail boat for free lunch.

This is despicable and absolutely untrue.  

Russ, you should be ashamed of yourself for not pointing out in strong terms that Rick would not take a bribe or tell lies.   

Joe ("Truth is important" ) O as well for liking it.

So should Rob Z and anyone else who knows Rick.

I will respond to the brown trolls that followed Octopus' post when I have nothing better to do.  
 

Rob Denney

Jeesus Rob,  settle down.

Adding your words to my snipped quotes is absolutely despicable.

Get it in perspective, I asked for an outline of Ricks sailing experience after you  dragged his name into the discussion. You provided NOTHING, stating you had no idea what difference that makes.

I posted a tounge in cheek quip to point out the idiocy of your reply in the context of your earlier posts.

You added the  rest.

SHAME ON YOU.

I have never met Rick but have followed his exploits with  human powered boats.

A very clever and talented man and no disrespect to him  was implied or intended.

I'm tapping out.

this is from a link about standing up to bullies on psychology today  

"If it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, swims like a duck ... it’s probably a duck. Bullies have most if not all of these identifying characteristics:

Dominating – Have to be the “alpha”; fear of looking “one-down”; thus must find targets who seem weaker; no compassion
Defensive – Never wrong; fault and scorn others; avoid personal responsibility
Deceptive – Manipulate grievances to gain support; blame scapegoats; cheat; hide truth since power is based on lies"

20 years of trolling and you can't even spell his name.  Isn't it a bit paranoid to assume I am Rob despite the fact that I live literally half a world away?  Is it so hard to believe that people who have endured this circle jerk for 20 years may find the 'US proa freaks' so pleasantly described by Groucho the more tiresome side of the argument?

I've already answered this

There are no sides, no camps, no war, unless you put rob and his bullshit on one side and the victims of his trolling on the other.

Because the reality is that there is no fight between Rob Denny and Russell Brown, it's just another one of the myths rob has created to sell harryproa by provoking russel into defending himself, and it's time this myth was laid to rest too.

 

[ProaSailor]

I'd love to simmer down, will in fact simmer down, as soon as rob stops being an ass, in fact if rob stops trolling I'll even put a link to harryproa in my sig.

OK, that's crazy.  When someone who disagrees with you says "Simmer down there", the proper response is to say "Fuck off" and be done with them.

No need to rehash all the old crap with every clueless sucker that comes along, just consider the source(s) and let it go.

You know the old saying about wrestling in the mud with a pig?  “You’ll both get dirty but the pig likes it."

 

[TwoBirds]

Hyper sensitive, beyond angry, US  proa freaks, your asinine, demented posting history sucks defecation.

Are you not embarrassed?

Rhetorical question.

you know, you assume that they're that way because they're all a pack of bastards, but that just doesn't make any sense.

On the other hand it would be a very human reaction to years of being e-bullied...

 

[TwoBirds]

OK, that's crazy.  When someone who disagrees with you says "Simmer down there", the proper response is to say "Fuck off" and be done with them.

No need to rehash all the old crap with every clueless sucker that comes along, just consider the source(s) and let it go.

You know the old saying about wrestling in the mud with a pig?  “You’ll both get dirty but the pig likes it."

I'm a retired farmer, raised hogs for over 30 years their amazing animals much smarter than my dogs, and I had smart dogs, I'm ok with a little mud if that's what it takes to lay this to rest 

it's fairly normal when standing up to a bully for people to get uncomfortable and want to sweep it under the rug, but if I learned anything from lord of the rings, all it takes is a bright light to deal with a troll

 

[ProaSailor]

if I learned anything from lord of the rings, all it takes is a bright light to deal with a troll

That depends on the troll.

View attachment 415085

This crazy world is full of belligerent know-nothings.  Almost half of U.S. voters believe Trump and will never be dissuaded.  Go figure.

By the way, you meant to write "they're" (they are), not "their"  (possessive pronoun).  Cheers.

 

[harryproa]

Janet,

Your harryproa related posts are at odds with the pleasant guy I met in Chicago, so I figured you had sold the boat.   

BTW, Joe Norwood did not invent weight to windward.  That was done by the first guy to sail in more than a light breeze.  The 'novel' discovery was sitting to leeward and pumping water to windward to stop the boat capsizing.

Zonker,

Glad you find me interesting.    Any "ideas I have tried out on other people" have been at their behest.      For some background and a point of view not tainted by envy, you might read post 1451 on the most informative multihull construction thread on any forum:   https://www.boatdesign.net/threads/multihull-structure-thoughts.62361/page-97  

"Follow through and execution" depend on what you are trying to achieve.  How it works for me:   I have (or someone suggests) an idea, I build a roughy,  analyse it for improvements, test them and repeat until I understand what is happening and cannot improve it, then move on to the next idea.   My clients tend to be smart enough to realise that getting an obviously fast (weight/length/sail area/personal experience) boat into race condition or putting a show room finish on a boat is neither relevant nor a good use of either my time, energy or money.  

No other ocean crossings, and the story Sven/Azurspeed relates is different to the one I got from the owner and put on the web page.  In your opinion, is there anything about the Harryproa type (ie, ignore the contribution of the crew, builder and engineer) that makes it unsuitable for ocean crossing? 

Aroha  rounding up was peculiar.  It had not happened before so I (and the owner, after we discussed it) attributed it  to being overloaded with ~double it's designed payload, all carried in the windward hull.  We learnt from that to provide space in the lee hull for excess gear.  Have not had problems since.

Pil,

There is no "hate in this camp". Quite the opposite, I appreciate them keeping Harryproas in the limelight.   I'm here to discuss boats, not people and certainly not US politics or pigs' intelligence.  

You have twice posted about how proas don't appeal to you for racing or cruising.  If the reason is that you think all proa people are argumentative wankers, then there is no need to reply.  But if it is about the boats, could you elaborate, please?     Note: Some of the Harryproa ideas stemmed directly from the racing and cruising I did in in XL2  (PIL's boat).  

The advantages I see for cruising  are: 

1) Weight/length/righting moment/cost:  A Harryproa is lighter/cheaper than a same materials cat for the same length and will have more rm for a given weight. eg, the 15m strip planked cedar glass cruiser Rare Bird weighs 3 and a bit tonnes, near enough the same as 11m (now 12?)  XL2, despite the latter being foam and light kevlar.  A 15m boat will be more comfortable and faster than a 12m one, all else being equal.

2) Nicer upwind motion as the bows hit the waves together, eliminating the corkscrew motion on a cat.  Like a mon, but without the heeling. 

3) Daggerboards and rudders.  Maybe you will hit something hard, maybe you won't, but the thought of what would happen to the crew, the board and the case if it hit something solid at 25 knots was a big part of the reason for the Harryproa combined rudder/daggerboard which is liftable and kicks up in a collision.  It's amazing how far the rudders have progressed from the draggy early versions.  The latest variation is shaft mounted under the hull, without a slot, yet kicks up in both directions.

4) Unstayed mast. Pointing head to wind to raise/lower the main, luffing to reef, bearing away in squalls and snafus, unable to comfortably stop the boat, having to go up the mast to check the rig periodically, dropping it due to rigging failure and paying for and carrying extra sails which are only used occasionally are all unnecessary on an unstayed rig.  Maybe not so good for a hot crew round the buoys racing but safer, easier and less maintenance on a cruiser, short handed  or ocean racer.

5) Shunting: Maybe you have fixed this, but the need to back the jib while tacking in big waves and to dump the mainsheet, then winch it back in to avoid getting into irons was hard work on XL2.  It's much less work in a shunt with a self vanging main and no jib.  

6) More of a benefit for foreign cruisers looking for "real" experiences than coastal cruisers in Aus, but looking different means making friends with locals and other cruisers is easy.  Looking similar to the traditional boats in the Pacific makes it even easier.

Cynophobe,

According to the backyard 60' proa builder who dropped into the shed for a look at the cargo proa this week, the red proa was sold to an overseas buyer.  Any idea who or where? 

Groucho,

Erudite as usual.   I guess you have answered Russ' question in post #344 of the R2A Best Boat thread.    

Last week I got the 6m/20' bow section of the 24m/80' cargo proa lee hull assembled.  Square section hulls are so much easier to build (and worse looking!) than other shapes.    Pics (and descriptions of a couple of balls ups for the haters) on https://www.facebook.com/Harryproa/?ref=page_internal.  

Next big job is the truss beams.

My response to the haters and brown trolls is pretty much the same as 8 years ago in post 65 at http://forums.sailinganarchy.com/index.php?/topic/145232-someone-explain-a-proa-to-me/   where I make a peace offering (which Russ ignores),  Russ asks the same (unreferenced) questions and I give the same (referenced) answers,  he insults my clients and refuses to discuss Harryproas, I explain how my information on his boats is quotes from magazines and praise Jzerro.    Interesting that in those days Harryproa had near zero support (thanks Luc and Philly), Russ had heaps and the loonies were less desperate and more restrained.  

In that 8 years, Russ has trolled me through several forums.  He has apologised for doing so twice, has asked for it to stop when it was obvious more people supported me than disliked me and has made several excuses and apologies for his poor behaviour. But he still turns up every time I post with the same negative, unsubstantiated comments.  Jealous of Harryproa's success, or nothing better to do with his time?  Pretty sad either way.    Other posters are starting to see through him and saying so.   

Also in that 8 years, Harryproas have been continually developed, plan sales have increased significantly, the proceeds from which I am using to build an experimental 80'ter to help remote Pacific Islanders,  Russ has swapped his proa (Go, Ryan!) for a small cat and been deeply involved with the Team Pure and Wild fiasco (his claims for honesty in advertising are a joke), Sven spent a heap refitting Cimba/Pacific Bee, put it on the market after 2 trips (damaged beam on the second one) to build a new, improved version which (of course) never happened,  and disappeared.    The loonies are getting more desperate, resorting to psychobabble and conspiracy theories.

Russ (and anyone else who cares to do so), bring on the harryproa comments.  I have been asking you to for 10 years.  Maybe you can start by addressing Rick's comments here and on the R2A Best Boat thread.  Please also say where and when I have said all the things you accuse me of so I can respond with facts, data and post references.



 

 

[JanetC Gougeon32]

You proa guys make the average anarchy posters look like saints. Here's an actual comment about the Big Red Boat,Gary has sold the boat. 

View attachment 419625

Does anyone know where it ended up? This boat has an interesting history.               

When it was under construction imagined it transporting cargo for those avoiding more traditional shipment methods; and I would see the boat again in an article similar to the ones showcasing home built submarines captured by the US coast guard.  

 

[PIL66 - XL2]

@harryproa
Rob....I know I'm never going to convince you that standard cats and tris are more efficient pound for pound even though the overwhelming boating / design fraternity disagree with you.
And that's ok.
And the above is the sole reason I would not own one.... nothing to do with the colorful people that sail them