Russell Brown
Super Anarchist
It certainly can be, especially if you know what kind of beer your dockmaster likes, speaking from experience.
Sidecar is one badass machine!
Sidecar is one badass machine!
70' Cruising Proa....Big Red Yacht
- Thread starter Happy
- Start date
OK, that is incredibly neat, but looking at that photo, I can't tell what the heck is going on with the rig, foils, etc. I am guessing from the little bit of wake there is (doesn't disturb the water much, that it is going in the direction you are facing, which would put the ama(?) to windward? Is there a good video out there showing these boats actually sailing and doing their thing to go upwind? Consider me very uneducated on the subject.
ProaSailor
dreaming my life away...
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Thanks....almost more confused. I could not find anywhere that you "tacked"? It looked like in one that you had a jib hanked on the stay at what was currently the aft end of the boat. Do you keep the outrigger to windward at all times, lower one jib, let the boom and mast swing around, raise the other jib and set the other rudder? Short "tacking", do you just not use the jibs? Is the mast only stayed to the outrigger? If so, I imagine it would be a no-no to back wind it.
Found the video for "Cheers" and it looked like they kept the outrigger to leeward all the time with semi free standing spars. If I had to guess I would have thought that would be the way to go. Then the video for "Madness" which appeared to be arranged as "Jzerro", but again, they did not show the boat tacking.
Am I guessing correctly on the maneuver to go through the wind? What is the advantage/disadvantage of having the outrigger to leeward or windward? Sorry for the stupid questions. I am sure these are the normal idiotic questions you have answered thousands of times.
Found the video for "Cheers" and it looked like they kept the outrigger to leeward all the time with semi free standing spars. If I had to guess I would have thought that would be the way to go. Then the video for "Madness" which appeared to be arranged as "Jzerro", but again, they did not show the boat tacking.
Am I guessing correctly on the maneuver to go through the wind? What is the advantage/disadvantage of having the outrigger to leeward or windward? Sorry for the stupid questions. I am sure these are the normal idiotic questions you have answered thousands of times.
TwoBirds
Member
Cheers is an atlantic style weight to windward proa, jezzero is a pacific style weight to leeward design.
hmm, wonder if Atlantic style proas Like cheers tie up with the big hull towards the dock...
Rob denny's proas are sort of between the two
2b
hmm, wonder if Atlantic style proas Like cheers tie up with the big hull towards the dock...
Rob denny's proas are sort of between the two
2b
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ProaSailor
dreaming my life away...
JZERRO is not my boat, I've never owned a proa. Your description of the tacking/shunting procedure is basically correct. The mast is to windward of the main hull so is stayed to leeward by the two headstays carrying the jibs. JZERRO is a Pacific proa, CHEERS is an "Atlantic proa" (non-traditional). I explained the difference as best I could here:
Why not keep the heavy hull to windward?
http://pacificproa.com/faq.html#WTW
Keeping the smaller, lighter hull to windward is a difficult concept for many people to understand, even though it was pretty obvious to ancient Micronesians who invented the concept. It doesn't require two full length hulls, each capable of carrying 100% of the boat's displacement. So you get a longer main hull for the same total weight as a shorter catamaran (or Atlantic proa). The windward hull is like floating ballast. As it lifts to skim or clear the water, the longer, bigger and heavier main hull carries all the weight, as it alone is designed to do. It's a balancing act that is amazing when it's done right.
Large version of that image (2864 X 2200 pixels, 1.5 Mbytes): http://pacificproa.com/micronesia/marshall_isles_proas_lg.jpg
Why not keep the heavy hull to windward?
http://pacificproa.com/faq.html#WTW
Keeping the smaller, lighter hull to windward is a difficult concept for many people to understand, even though it was pretty obvious to ancient Micronesians who invented the concept. It doesn't require two full length hulls, each capable of carrying 100% of the boat's displacement. So you get a longer main hull for the same total weight as a shorter catamaran (or Atlantic proa). The windward hull is like floating ballast. As it lifts to skim or clear the water, the longer, bigger and heavier main hull carries all the weight, as it alone is designed to do. It's a balancing act that is amazing when it's done right.
Large version of that image (2864 X 2200 pixels, 1.5 Mbytes): http://pacificproa.com/micronesia/marshall_isles_proas_lg.jpg
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They do...... That is largely the point about them. For any given displacement they are very efficient and economic.
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TwoBirds
Member
Funny thought, I don't recall how many times I've seen someone comment on Jzerro being a problem when back winded, lots and lots, but I've never seen the same comment made about Cheers where it was a serious problem as it could, and occasionally did, lead to a capsize.
I suspect the reason that you don't see a lot of shunting videos is because the process of shunting is, well, boring... Unlike tacking where sails are flogging and you HAVE to get through the wind, most of the time you could take a tea break at any given point in the process of shunting without doing anything but making it take a bit longer, yawn, this video illustrates the point rather well, for those that are having trouble staying awake skip ahead to 2:40
There's been a lot of hype and a fair amount of drama over proas on the net, they really seem to strike a spark with some people. but the the thing I find most interesting is how the islanders took building materials that'd make a European shipbuilder throw up his hands in disgust and developed the technology to build boats that could literally sail circles around the European ships
I suspect the reason that you don't see a lot of shunting videos is because the process of shunting is, well, boring... Unlike tacking where sails are flogging and you HAVE to get through the wind, most of the time you could take a tea break at any given point in the process of shunting without doing anything but making it take a bit longer, yawn, this video illustrates the point rather well, for those that are having trouble staying awake skip ahead to 2:40
There's been a lot of hype and a fair amount of drama over proas on the net, they really seem to strike a spark with some people. but the the thing I find most interesting is how the islanders took building materials that'd make a European shipbuilder throw up his hands in disgust and developed the technology to build boats that could literally sail circles around the European ships
ProaSailor
dreaming my life away...
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Russell Brown
Super Anarchist
TwoBirds
Member
Is backwinding a serious problem for any of the modern pacific proas? In the traditionally built proas with their crabclaws and canting masts the whole rig could blow over if backwinded, but all the modern proas seem to have designed around the problem.
I've been backwinded a few times in my Wa'apa and it hasn't been any kind of problem or taken more than about 7 seconds to put right.
I could see needing to avoid being backwinded adding extra complication to the process of beating off a lee shore, but other than that...
I've been backwinded a few times in my Wa'apa and it hasn't been any kind of problem or taken more than about 7 seconds to put right.
I could see needing to avoid being backwinded adding extra complication to the process of beating off a lee shore, but other than that...
Russell Brown
Super Anarchist
I have had only one memorable backwinding which happened while I was asleep. I woke to a lot of wind and the main against the back stay. The main came down, the jib went up and away we went.
Please don't encourage you-know-who to rail against all who don't believe in the true path in proas.
Please don't encourage you-know-who to rail against all who don't believe in the true path in proas.
randii
Member
Definitely not. I was commenting on another post that wondered about Harleys. Honestly, HDs don't generally make much sense to me, but to each their own, and I'm glad there are choices.
Now cut an EVO motor out, give it some top-end work, and run it in a Buell tube frame and that Harley motor starts making sense to me. I've not straddled a later-model Buell, so I can't comment on how those work, just my Thunderbolt. The engineering looks tops, though!
Nothing to do with proas, really... but I like that there are choices there in boats as well as bikes.
BTW, I'm a fan of roads less travelled, too.
r.finn
Super Anarchist
- 2,001
- 662
It's happened one time in 10K miles of sailing Jzerro and this was due to an abrupt wind shift under a rain shower in the Gulf while sailing to Cuba. I dropped the jib, lowered both rudders and put them hard over to tighten the turning radius. Then I wound the mainsail to the other bow and Jzerro started moving "backwards" until she essentially gybed back onto the correct orientation and we were off again. It was a low stress event that was quick to sort out.
Much depends on the rig and rudder set up. I get backwinded occasionally due to the sudden geographically induced wind changes in the Sound and Norfolk Bay, especially when it is really light.
When caught aback and pinned, I start to shunt and steer the boat ASAP “backwards” into a normal wind abeam situation, ie a half shunt, whilst deciding whether to complete a shunt on the other (lifted) tack or sheet in again and head up to somewhere near the original heading again..... I have a club footed windward jib so no foresail dropping or furling/unfurling involved, which makes it pretty easy. The new reversible rudders being built should make It easier still.
When caught aback and pinned, I start to shunt and steer the boat ASAP “backwards” into a normal wind abeam situation, ie a half shunt, whilst deciding whether to complete a shunt on the other (lifted) tack or sheet in again and head up to somewhere near the original heading again..... I have a club footed windward jib so no foresail dropping or furling/unfurling involved, which makes it pretty easy. The new reversible rudders being built should make It easier still.
Recidivist
Super Anarchist
Rob Denney tried to convince me to build a proa years ago, but the very idea hurt my symmetrical brain.
I think they're interesting, but they are not for me.
I think they're interesting, but they are not for me.
harryproa
Anarchist
- 926
- 160
Gary anchored outside our place for a few days on his way north, then he and his crew dropped into the shed for a very interesting discussion about proas, servicing the remote Pacific and survey requirements. Nice people, a cool boat and excellent intentions, but lacking cash to implement them. See their FaceBook page to donate to a worthy cause.
Sidecar,
Great that the boat is sailing. Well done. If the new rudders have carbon in them, we have found the cheapest material is pultruded strips (70% carbon, 1.2mm x 50mm). I have a couple of rolls, let me know if you want some.
Recidivist,
If you are in Qld or can get here after the borders open, come for a sail and we'll see if we can sort your brain out. ;-) You too, Pil.
Two Birds,
Not sure 'modern proas have designed around getting caught aback' if all you have to do is "drop the main (which is held hard against the backstay), raise the jib and sail away" Piece of cake at 2 am in a rain squall. They definitely have not designed around accidentally gybing in a breeze. This is an accepted risk for a racer, but not much fun for a cruiser.
Staying angles and backstay arrangements that are unacceptable on other boats are not likely to be acceptable on caught aback or gybing proas. A better solution is an unstayed mast(s), no headsails (which don't make much sense on a proa anyway as demonstrated in the shunting videos above) and the main sheet(s) lead directly to the windward hull.
Russ,
Which of the attached "You Know Whos" were you referring to? Old articles, but the rigs (and problems) are still the same.
Sidecar,
Great that the boat is sailing. Well done. If the new rudders have carbon in them, we have found the cheapest material is pultruded strips (70% carbon, 1.2mm x 50mm). I have a couple of rolls, let me know if you want some.
Recidivist,
If you are in Qld or can get here after the borders open, come for a sail and we'll see if we can sort your brain out. ;-) You too, Pil.
Two Birds,
Not sure 'modern proas have designed around getting caught aback' if all you have to do is "drop the main (which is held hard against the backstay), raise the jib and sail away" Piece of cake at 2 am in a rain squall. They definitely have not designed around accidentally gybing in a breeze. This is an accepted risk for a racer, but not much fun for a cruiser.
Staying angles and backstay arrangements that are unacceptable on other boats are not likely to be acceptable on caught aback or gybing proas. A better solution is an unstayed mast(s), no headsails (which don't make much sense on a proa anyway as demonstrated in the shunting videos above) and the main sheet(s) lead directly to the windward hull.
Russ,
Which of the attached "You Know Whos" were you referring to? Old articles, but the rigs (and problems) are still the same.
TwoBirds
Member
How did you like the Gibbons KONeill? I'd like to try one, but only if the water's warm 
Is there a build thread somewhere for Sidecar? I tried googling but all that came up was motorcycles. It looks like Gais Dream has a windward staysail too, I haven't been able to find any footage of it in use, maybe a downwind sail?
Proas are symmetrical, well except "Tacking Proas".
I dunno Rob, my wa'apa is rigged the way you describe although I use an aero-junk instead of a blaestrom rig, no head sail or standing rigging, and I'm seriously considering adding backstays just to catch the sail when it gybes because it sweeps right across the entire tramp and I'm too fat and old to be ducking
I'm no expert, heck, most folks on this forum have forgotten more about boats than I'll ever know so I'm having trouble getting my head around your assertion that standing rigging isn't appropriate for proas.
When I first read about proas the thing that really jumped out at me is that the main doesn't have to pass beneath the back stay so you could in theory fully stay virtually any rig, not just that but with their wide staying angles proas have far less mast compression to boot.
then you add in the fact that the back stays lift any ballast in the ama so there's no need to beef up the crossbeams to carry the extra load while protecting the passengers and crew from being swept off the tramp by an unexpected gybe and it just seems like proas and standing rigging are a match made in heaven.
2b
Is there a build thread somewhere for Sidecar? I tried googling but all that came up was motorcycles. It looks like Gais Dream has a windward staysail too, I haven't been able to find any footage of it in use, maybe a downwind sail?
Proas are symmetrical, well except "Tacking Proas".
I dunno Rob, my wa'apa is rigged the way you describe although I use an aero-junk instead of a blaestrom rig, no head sail or standing rigging, and I'm seriously considering adding backstays just to catch the sail when it gybes because it sweeps right across the entire tramp and I'm too fat and old to be ducking
I'm no expert, heck, most folks on this forum have forgotten more about boats than I'll ever know so I'm having trouble getting my head around your assertion that standing rigging isn't appropriate for proas.
When I first read about proas the thing that really jumped out at me is that the main doesn't have to pass beneath the back stay so you could in theory fully stay virtually any rig, not just that but with their wide staying angles proas have far less mast compression to boot.
then you add in the fact that the back stays lift any ballast in the ama so there's no need to beef up the crossbeams to carry the extra load while protecting the passengers and crew from being swept off the tramp by an unexpected gybe and it just seems like proas and standing rigging are a match made in heaven.
2b
