89er

longy

Overlord of Anarchy
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San Diego
Some beginner q's - the crew didn't seem to concerned with the mounts of overlap between pieces of cloth; the vertical panels for the wing extensions weren't glassed; the joint between the center and the side pieces of cloth have the regular cloth between the two pieces of basalt cloth  (instead of the b cloth overlapping b cloth) ?

 

JulianB

Super Anarchist
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Sydney mostly
Some beginner q's - the crew didn't seem to concerned with the mounts of overlap between pieces of cloth; the vertical panels for the wing extensions weren't glassed; the joint between the center and the side pieces of cloth have the regular cloth between the two pieces of basalt cloth  (instead of the b cloth overlapping b cloth) ?
The side pannels are just water proof baffels, they need virtually no structual intergrity so whats needed is completly resolved by the inner layers.   But they are glassed with bi-axial, for 2 reasons, #1, it navegates the curves and scollops better & #2 it on itself is about the right weight as a single layer.

The working surface of the hull is covered with 320gm Basalt, the high stress areas from wave impact, etc then have a aditional 200gm S-Glass, both of those are longitudinal for 2 reasons 1) far fewer seams but 2) far easier to get a singnificant amount of tension in the material (both S-Glass and Basalt, so as to make the final structure pre tesioned so to speak.

We then switch to the bi-axial where we actually want a bit more idiot factor and where we want to drop down to a single layer for reasons of weight reduction.

Re overlaps, if you actually do the test, the amount of overlap that you need is 1:10 -> 15:1 so 0.32mmm thick basalt needs only 3.2mm -> 4.8mm of overlap.

We did de-string the edge of the baslat and used a 100:1 overlap, which ofcourse is a over kill, the S-Glass joing was then staggered.

The 250gm B-Axial glass "overlapp" will probably be virtually all removed in the fairing process, but there will be the Basalt overlapp to carry the load more than sufficently. 

That's my logic!

            jB

 

JulianB

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Boat in the Australian oven, it's sitting at about 85c now. Left the perforated plastic ( blue and pink) on to contain the heat.  Really impressed in the paper transfer medium (Golden brown),  far better traditional stuff (white).

We are cleaning up, probably only 2 hrs in the sun. Move it around a bit to get plenty of heat on the sides.

Then back inside and generate a receiving jig.

20211214_090645.jpg

 

WCB

Super Anarchist
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Park City, UT
Boat in the Australian oven, it's sitting at about 85c now. Left the perforated plastic ( blue and pink) on to contain the heat.  Really impressed in the paper transfer medium (Golden brown),  far better traditional stuff (white).

We are cleaning up, probably only 2 hrs in the sun. Move it around a bit to get plenty of heat on the sides.

Then back inside and generate a receiving jig.

View attachment 479129
You mean 85F right?  

What does the transfer paper do?  When I've done vacuum bagging it's peel ply, breather fabric, then the vacuum bag. It seems like you have additional materials in there.

 
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JulianB

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You mean 85F right?  

What does the transfer paper do?  When I've done vacuum bagging it's peel ply, breather fabric, then the vacuum bag. It seems like you have additional materials in there.
What you call breather fabric, I call transfer medium, 6 of 1, 1/2 doz of the other, the pink/blue is perforated plastic, which allows the separation of the breather and the peelply simply.    I only just commented to Alex that perforated plastic is very new, we used to have to strip the peel-ply to get the breather/transfre medium off, now we leave the peel ply on until we are ready for the next phase which may be weeks or months.

And no, we are metric so about 85C, way to hot to keep your hand on it for more than 1 sec.    Put my thermometer on it, and straight past it limit of 60C.     I'm guessing we are at low to mid 80's!

 

WCB

Super Anarchist
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Park City, UT
What you call breather fabric, I call transfer medium, 6 of 1, 1/2 doz of the other, the pink/blue is perforated plastic, which allows the separation of the breather and the peelply simply.    I only just commented to Alex that perforated plastic is very new, we used to have to strip the peel-ply to get the breather/transfre medium off, now we leave the peel ply on until we are ready for the next phase which may be weeks or months.

And no, we are metric so about 85C, way to hot to keep your hand on it for more than 1 sec.    Put my thermometer on it, and straight past it limit of 60C.     I'm guessing we are at low to mid 80's!
That makes sense re: peel ply/breather. I'm used to the removal of peel ply a day or two later after full cured with plenty of breather attached to it. It would be nice to be able to leave the peel ply on longer, especially on bigger projects.  I'll have to remember this as we get going on our build. 

That's hot!  185F...scorcher. 

 

JulianB

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That makes sense re: peel ply/breather. I'm used to the removal of peel ply a day or two later after full cured with plenty of breather attached to it. It would be nice to be able to leave the peel ply on longer, especially on bigger projects.  I'll have to remember this as we get going on our build. 

That's hot!  185F...scorcher. 
It's 25C inside today, 42C outside in the sun, bloody hot shower is 45C, so it's way past that, the arimine blush is happening with gusto on the non-black side panels, I', guessing it's already totally gassed off the Basalt coated parts.   Rotating the boat side to said every 30 mins.  

 

JulianB

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You speak of overlaps, I think we did a great job, just de-perfporated plastice it, and really happy with the result, may yet clear coat it!   And this was not me picking the best spot, it's pretty uniform.

This is the Bi-Axil to the S-Glass overlap, and if you look closely at around 55-75, you can just make out the Basalt to Basalt joint.   It's really pretty flat.

Boats had a big cook, now we are assembling the recieving jig, just go my centrecase plug today, so a flip on Friday most likely and then into the innards!

      Get me spin-pole recieving tube, Thursday with any luck.

                    jB

Overlap.jpg

 

Steve Clark

Super Anarchist
How much heat do you think got to the inside skin?

Getting all the bits hot is always a concern for post curing.

You might consider letting the inside bake in the sun once you turn it over.

One concern is that the PET core I have seen has Tg of around 75C ( which is marginally low)and  things might start  moving during a free standing post cure.

So more control, less hot for longer, might be advised.

Rock and Roll

SHC

 

JulianB

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Sydney mostly
If the surface temp (at the perforated plastic) is 85C then the outside skin temp will be about 80C, the inner skin temp will be 75-78, the bog temp will be low 70's.    P115 is good for 80C, and in our tests it dose not move until you get over mid 90's, so very sure we are pretty safe.

The Industrial Chemist wants us to get to 65-70C to post cure his brew, so that's what we are doing.

This is the same epxoy that I used on most of my 18teens and 49ers, and we have treated it similarly for 30-40 years.  We also get the curative to a special brew so we get an initial kick, that then needs a post cure, which is exactly what we have done.

My guess, thought I really need to get a better thermometer that goes to say 120C is the whole boat was 70-75c for 2 hrs and then pretty hot (65-70C) for another 2 hrs.    You could still put your hand on it and not "scalled".     Scallding happens at aboput 82C for 30secs, so that's my reference.   58-60C same scalding happens in 2 1/2 min, so you can get pretty acurate by how long your willing to keep you hand there.

Just the way we do this down here, plus we have free natural heat.

                    jB

PS, they have just opened the QLD border (Covid ) so next Wednesday, another dash up the coast to get the long quarintined 6Pac!  Slow my program down a bit, but it happens!

 

Steveromagnino

Super Anarchist
Starboard is a global windsurfing company, the #1 windsurf brand globally, with a Norwegian owner Sven Rasmussen, and the head designer Tiesda Yu iis Vietnamese.  They are based in multiple locations but their head office is just down the road from me in Bangkok Thailand, their test centre is near Pattaya, Thailand.  Their business model would be like Apple - they invent and design the boards, sails, etc etc and they get someone to build them.

The reason why is because almost all the major windsurf brands are located here (I used to sail with a bunch of the designers especially in Nov - April) is....becuase...almost all the windsurfers globally get made in 1 factory Cobra International located about 1 hour south of Bangkok.  All this "Asian" reference is probably thinking of China - Thailand is not China, and Starboard is not really an Asian company, or a European company, it is a global company with a very strong sense for sustainability; they didn't do the wood decks solely for sustainability in the early 2000s, they did for performance, now they are pushing hard for environmentally friendly solutions and Cobra I presume is working with them, jointly they create new ways to build certain things, in some cases it is probably Starboard or F2 or Exocet or JP or whoever who has a proprietory way to build or make something.

huge numbers of SUPs, surfboards, kite boards, foilers, most of the RS dinghies, many of the other trailerables like Nacra - all made either by Cobra or CMI which is located next door and shared some ownership in some way - there is strong access to manufacturing expertise, skilled labour at a reaosnable price + expats in key positions where needed (Cobra has 1000+ staff, CMI maybe 100+ from memory), well priced materials, a deep sea port (well until COVID that mattered, now it's clogged), testing grounds etc.

In fact the reason why Starboard became so dominant so quickly was partly because they were the first WS brand to locate their test centre where the tropics wind punch is less, and the normal wind is 8-12 knots.  So that's why they quickly went to 1m wide boards, big rigs and dominated formula windsurfing in the early 2000s, leading to a lower wind range and wider boards planing earlier - it also helps that Sven is a genius and so is Tiesda and many of the ppl who they work with. Located next to Cobra they could cut down production time to a minimum too.

Sidetrack complete - JulianB my late father adored your dad's book and himself was a yacht designer and racer similar era; I've never seen the 79er but met Peter Perfect and some of the guys who raced them back when I was building SHaw 650s up here.  Look fwd to seeing the 89er, it will be a fantastic boat I'm sure ;-)

 

JulianB

Super Anarchist
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Sydney mostly
Starboard is a global windsurfing company, the #1 windsurf brand globally, with a Norwegian owner Sven Rasmussen, and the head designer Tiesda Yu iis Vietnamese.  They are based in multiple locations but their head office is just down the road from me in Bangkok Thailand, their test centre is near Pattaya, Thailand.  Their business model would be like Apple - they invent and design the boards, sails, etc etc and they get someone to build them.

The reason why is because almost all the major windsurf brands are located here (I used to sail with a bunch of the designers especially in Nov - April) is....becuase...almost all the windsurfers globally get made in 1 factory Cobra International located about 1 hour south of Bangkok.  All this "Asian" reference is probably thinking of China - Thailand is not China, and Starboard is not really an Asian company, or a European company, it is a global company with a very strong sense for sustainability; they didn't do the wood decks solely for sustainability in the early 2000s, they did for performance, now they are pushing hard for environmentally friendly solutions and Cobra I presume is working with them, jointly they create new ways to build certain things, in some cases it is probably Starboard or F2 or Exocet or JP or whoever who has a proprietory way to build or make something.

huge numbers of SUPs, surfboards, kite boards, foilers, most of the RS dinghies, many of the other trailerables like Nacra - all made either by Cobra or CMI which is located next door and shared some ownership in some way - there is strong access to manufacturing expertise, skilled labour at a reaosnable price + expats in key positions where needed (Cobra has 1000+ staff, CMI maybe 100+ from memory), well priced materials, a deep sea port (well until COVID that mattered, now it's clogged), testing grounds etc.

In fact the reason why Starboard became so dominant so quickly was partly because they were the first WS brand to locate their test centre where the tropics wind punch is less, and the normal wind is 8-12 knots.  So that's why they quickly went to 1m wide boards, big rigs and dominated formula windsurfing in the early 2000s, leading to a lower wind range and wider boards planing earlier - it also helps that Sven is a genius and so is Tiesda and many of the ppl who they work with. Located next to Cobra they could cut down production time to a minimum too.

Sidetrack complete - JulianB my late father adored your dad's book and himself was a yacht designer and racer similar era; I've never seen the 79er but met Peter Perfect and some of the guys who raced them back when I was building SHaw 650s up here.  Look fwd to seeing the 89er, it will be a fantastic boat I'm sure ;-)
That's left feild with a final swing back to the thread, Thankyou for your confidence, one thing I am sure of is this is my last big build.

Love doing it, love working with my son, but I prefer to be sailing (or gliding (need to go do that again before I die)).

I promised you the 49er "guiding principals" today.   So I have attached it.

Super interestingly, recently a WS committee came out with a statment re longivity of the 49er/FX, that was about 3 weeks ago.   We had plans to up-grade the longivity (therefor increased enviormental legacy) of the 49er/FX going back 3-4 years but have always stumbeled WRT WS and the EXC approval.   This WS committee has triggered a EGM and a urgent Spec change to WS to impliment those changes.   Been a frantic few days, WS now need to hold up their end and I have no doubt they will.

That's the key word, "WILL".   If you have the will then you will find the way.    It's not that hard, but you need the will!

View attachment 9er Guiding Principles for Sustinability Dec 7th 2021.docx

 

Sailabout

Super Anarchist
Starboard is a global windsurfing company, the #1 windsurf brand globally, with a Norwegian owner Sven Rasmussen, and the head designer Tiesda Yu iis Vietnamese.  They are based in multiple locations but their head office is just down the road from me in Bangkok Thailand, their test centre is near Pattaya, Thailand.  Their business model would be like Apple - they invent and design the boards, sails, etc etc and they get someone to build them.

The reason why is because almost all the major windsurf brands are located here (I used to sail with a bunch of the designers especially in Nov - April) is....becuase...almost all the windsurfers globally get made in 1 factory Cobra International located about 1 hour south of Bangkok.  All this "Asian" reference is probably thinking of China - Thailand is not China, and Starboard is not really an Asian company, or a European company, it is a global company with a very strong sense for sustainability; they didn't do the wood decks solely for sustainability in the early 2000s, they did for performance, now they are pushing hard for environmentally friendly solutions and Cobra I presume is working with them, jointly they create new ways to build certain things, in some cases it is probably Starboard or F2 or Exocet or JP or whoever who has a proprietory way to build or make something.

huge numbers of SUPs, surfboards, kite boards, foilers, most of the RS dinghies, many of the other trailerables like Nacra - all made either by Cobra or CMI which is located next door and shared some ownership in some way - there is strong access to manufacturing expertise, skilled labour at a reaosnable price + expats in key positions where needed (Cobra has 1000+ staff, CMI maybe 100+ from memory), well priced materials, a deep sea port (well until COVID that mattered, now it's clogged), testing grounds etc.

In fact the reason why Starboard became so dominant so quickly was partly because they were the first WS brand to locate their test centre where the tropics wind punch is less, and the normal wind is 8-12 knots.  So that's why they quickly went to 1m wide boards, big rigs and dominated formula windsurfing in the early 2000s, leading to a lower wind range and wider boards planing earlier - it also helps that Sven is a genius and so is Tiesda and many of the ppl who they work with. Located next to Cobra they could cut down production time to a minimum too.

Sidetrack complete - JulianB my late father adored your dad's book and himself was a yacht designer and racer similar era; I've never seen the 79er but met Peter Perfect and some of the guys who raced them back when I was building SHaw 650s up here.  Look fwd to seeing the 89er, it will be a fantastic boat I'm sure ;-)
I think Cobra out of anything that has more than 2 parts?
CMI gone and started again with the usual suspects down in Chonburi as Element6 and doing lasers now as well.
No idea where RS went but I'm sure Julian knows.
Boat building not easy as it requires skilled workers.

 

JulianB

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Sydney mostly
I think Cobra out of anything that has more than 2 parts?
CMI gone and started again with the usual suspects down in Chonburi as Element6 and doing lasers now as well.
No idea where RS went but I'm sure Julian knows.
Boat building not easy as it requires skilled workers.
No idea where RS are, but yes, CMi is now 6E6 very close to RVYC and making sensational ILCA's (but then again, so is ZOU, Oving, Rio Techna and Nauctivela, I have never seen a Devoti, but can't see how they could not be a improvment on everything but a PSA)

I was in 6E6 Jan 2020 and what they where doing especially with infusion was impressive.   We have 29er plugs going there in March, that could be interesting.

 

huey 2

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syd
I just found this thread via Swedish and Finish friends,  its a worldwide group thats for sure

  people messing around in boats....




 
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huey 2

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syd
It just seems to be strangely appropriate to post this pic from 1980-81 of Mike Todd... the talk of windsurfers and having the 12' skiff Nationals racing of Balmain last week....and the memory of Frank and the experimental tri with windsurfer hulls flexing fast down the waves of Dobroyd Bombora to Grotto

182309480_10218807165840822_1469845425509939122_n.jpeg

 

JulianB

Super Anarchist
1,173
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Sydney mostly
and to post from earlier posts about comparisons between designs similar to plan

View attachment 479883
Yes, but no!

I do remember building a 16 or 18ft long windsurfer from Laclan Gilbert (I think) that was 100gm Carbon or Arimid on the inside, 200gm S-Glass on the outside, varying thickness strip planked balsa from 4mm to 10mm, the good old 1mm aircraft ply vacuumed on where the feet where.  I think it weighed less than 4kgs, certainly less than 10lbs, and he paid a pretty penny for it, but made that back in the 1st 6 months in prize monies just here in SYD.   He must have kept it for 4 years, it was a long skinny thing, 99% displacement, but if you pushed it, it planned very cleanly.

He was certainly mad enough to carry a spinnaker, how you dropped it and where you put it was interesting.    They also had jibs hanging off the front to maximise slot effect down hill, that was pretty interesting, mostly feathered uphill, not needed, but turn the corner, bit like a Tasar and it's over rotating mast.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Just detailing the receiving jig,

image.jpeg

image.png

I'm exploiting the chemical difference between Polyester and Epoxy, these are 300gm CSM tabbed on with Polyester.  I have already done a trial and you can peel the cured Polyester of the epoxy peel ply, so I am getting maybe 20-30% adhesion, which is more than enough.   All I want is the receiving jig to stay put while I roll the hull.   The hull laminate will be 100 x stiffer and stronger than the jig.    And if all else fails, just peel the peel ply off and clean epoxy laminate.

Speaking of epoxy laminate, I could not help myself and de-peelply-ed the bow.

image.jpeg

Really happy with the result, I can and most probably will clear coat it!

Roll it late Monday or early Tuesday.

                      jB

PS, my dash north (to pick up 6Pac) has been put back to the other side of NY, can't say I'm un-happy about that.

 

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