89er

JulianB

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Punisher, with a handle like that, I think it is beholden on you to take on the experimentation and finding of the correct recipe for a PGGB and publish it here for all to behold!
My 4 fat old bastards (& one young buck) will be very happy to move away from Negronis.
 

JulianB

Super Anarchist
1,181
1,605
Sydney mostly
Punisher, the plan is to do the Goolwa/Murray Bridge event 10 days before Port Lincoln, then park the boat at my mates house (Rob Remington) and come back and do PL, so given you about 1/2 way between where RR is and the airport, I'm guessing we may just have to take you up on your offer. Very found memories of Adelaide, NS14's sailing with Dad, late 60's and early 70's, Cherubs with my sister in 1976 and then a string of 18teen events. I know your way south of Adelaide, so possibly can't be called Adelaidian's (my mother name was Adelaide, BTW).
Anyway the original purpose of Don't Panic was to have a reason for 4 fat old bastards (and one young buck) who were drinkers with a sailing problem. Your offer fits that bill perfectly.
 

JulianB

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Sydney mostly
BTW
1662167499089.png
BTW, 2 of the founding "fat old bastards" Rob Reynolds (not to be confused with Remington) LHS and Mark Riley on Maggie as I type this, (I'm in Mudgee at a family wedding, so had to bail on Maggie this year).
It's raining and cold here, dose not look like that in Maggie.

BTW, GT has already booked our accom in PL, so we are 99.99% definite's, I believe Tubby (Dave Lambourne) in the new Lamborghini (Don't Painic's sister ship, which is just now being started to be built) is also lining up for the event. It's a IRC championship, so we may have a few starters.
 

JulianB

Super Anarchist
1,181
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Sydney mostly
Just got this from the UK, looks like a S8 being tarter-ed up in Cowles. It definitely looks like a Bethwaite!
1662416563572.png


Because I will be asked,
Vivace was the original boat, built by Peire Gal, (2002) in Coffs Harbour. Still sailing today (or 10 days ago) and won one of the division at Airlie beach.
Peire (a Sailmaker) built a few boats and they are referred to as 79ers. Skeeter was a 79er and won the other division at Airlie beach.
Between them they won every race and I think took every 2nd place also (maybe one slipped)

Geoff Person took Vivace, faired it right up and made moulds, he added a lot of laminate and a Canting keel, that boat is know as a S8.

The reason I think this is a S8 and not a 79er is the smoothness of the interface between winglet and hull, the Chain-plate mounts and tell-tale hatch over were the top of the Fin would be.
 
Just got this from the UK, looks like a S8 being tarter-ed up in Cowles. It definitely looks like a Bethwaite!
View attachment 539234

Because I will be asked,
Vivace was the original boat, built by Peire Gal, (2002) in Coffs Harbour. Still sailing today (or 10 days ago) and won one of the division at Airlie beach.
Peire (a Sailmaker) built a few boats and they are referred to as 79ers. Skeeter was a 79er and won the other division at Airlie beach.
Between them they won every race and I think took every 2nd place also (maybe one slipped)

Geoff Person took Vivace, faired it right up and made moulds, he added a lot of laminate and a Canting keel, that boat is know as a S8.

The reason I think this is a S8 and not a 79er is the smoothness of the interface between winglet and hull, the Chain-plate mounts and tell-tale hatch over were the top of the Fin would be.
That's my ship. Originally imported to the UK by Tony Rayer. I Bought and collected it from some great guys in the Czech Republic. They were sailing on a narrow lake so got good at tacking and gybing. Was hoping to be on the water this year but work has spoiled the plans. Still got plenty of mods saving weight to do over this winter. I'm leaving it canting at present as I'm short on mates.
Looking forward to seeing the 89er.
 

JulianB

Super Anarchist
1,181
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Sydney mostly
Just an update, boat is upstairs, being worked on daily. The biggish issue is preparing the deck for the EVA foam. Lots of details like working out the self tacking jib, and were the solids should go. Boom is just about finished, Foils have been started, I hope to get it on the water before I go to Europe, (October 16th) but we have a few complications right now, so that is looking tight.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I got an email/rant from Len Burke who is ex-Aussie, in Florida but has connections to the Squaddie and Double B(pay)ay, and an even more unique connection in that I think he brought Baby AMMI which was a B14, all done up in AMMI regalia must have been 1992-ish.

Len’s rant is a few pages, all positive, he is a yacht broker, yad yad, so knows just a tad more than the rest of us, and he asked some questions, which have been asked before by quite a few of you and I have not answered, so blame Len, and here goes.

I did love his analogy re ADHD and claiming my mathematical prowess, which is complete BS, I was a dumb shit at school, but if I have to work something out, I tend to be like a dog at a bone, and keep going until I understand it, and if that needs maths, so be it. I do remember my mother being dragged in front of my primary school headmistress and presented with my apparent googol goop. Mum was a decipherer during the WW2 so her maths was far far better than mine and apparently the teacher. At 11ish I was doing algebra. Interesting conversation and I was not popular.

That being said comparing Richo’s Palm Beach power boats with VX Ones and Vipers, throw in a 16ft skiff and a Sportsboat, very interesting mix, and I quote;

“I regard to your chines on skiff like boats, and now ocean racers (big sea going skiffs), do you think Racheal-Pugh did the Melges 14, and 15 a disservice designing a round bilged skiff?:

I think is possibly a step to far because you are lumping everything in together rather than working out what is you want to do.

I have not looked at the Melges 14 – 15 so I really can’t comment all that much, but given they are predominantly American, and given they will predominantly be sailed sub HS (hull speed) by mostly recreational sailors, then round bilge boats are probably appropriate.

OK, now we get into the Bethwaite school of design, it was probably started by my brother Mark in 1970ish. Mark has more letters behind his name than in it, very smart boy, and quite a few Laser Cubes, 2 Olympics and a few WC to add to his cache.

Not sure of the date but he designed 2 “Medium Dribby’s ” (NS14). 1 for himself, his then GF who became his wife and another one for a friend, JAD.

He went on and won the then NS14 Nationals, and this was no small affair, lots and lots of boats, very heightened tensions, I think it was in Canberra. I sail with Dad in Markutu which was NS 3, and designed by John Spencer.

That was a tipping point. We sold Markutu.

Within 2 years, we were making 100+ Dribblies a year and Dad as Dad did then set about to work out what it was that Mark had done. This boat was a major departure from your std round bilge hull that Len is ranting on about. And we started going through the Marque numbers.

Not 100% sure Dad work out what it was, or maybe he was just pandering to me, but in around 1991 ish, so this was the era of the B18 and the AMMI’s (and Ella Bache’s, Xerox, and GP sailing) he and I had this conversation where I laid out what I was trying to do when I altered the 18teen. My Mantra!

I have mentioned it before, but I will say it again now. These days open your Garmin App and look at your course.

The great bulk of any sailing, of off the beach boats, either passage (as go and come back) or around the cans, both in terms of distance and in terms of time is upwind.

So I came to consider the front ½ of the boat as “up-wind” (in front of the Fin) and the back ½ was all about down wind and you did not compromise either section other than to mesh the 2 together and make sure that one did not over power the other in it’s chosen function.

For me, the front sections are all about “carving” through the water with the least resistance possible and there is virtually no altering of those sections to say, stop the boat plunging as it come off a wave going downhill. When I say front sections BTW, I do mean that those which are most likely to be in the water going up wind, so in the case of a 49er or a 18teen or the 89er, it’s everything up to 50-100mm above the WL.

I do need to stress that above this level we look at surviving a “plunge” so launching of the face of a wave doing 20+knts and into the back of the one in front of you. You don’t want to pitch-pole, but you only “just don’t” want to pitch-pole so 75-100mm of green water over the foredeck is OK, 200mm is not.

We use a Vee, because as soon as you have wind, you have chop, and slamming into chop and shaking the sails is very very slow, if you loose flow, it takes 3 cords to re-establish, in the case of the 89er that’s 22m approx. but you ½ ve that because its AWS, so 11m, but even at 6knts hull speed you only doing 3m/sec so that 3+ secs without power, so you won’t be doing 3m/sec for long. BTW shaking the boat and the foils is equally as slow, and possibly more significant in terms of drag.

Then the back ½ ve. Go look at any shot of a 49er at speed, the bow is ½ - 1m out, so it’s fwd shape is almost irrelevant for downwind speed. And certainly, it’s shape is not going to do anything to keep the bow out if it’s out already, ½ -1m in the air.

It’s all about the aft sections, they need to be the right size, as in area, they need to be straight right aft, so the back of the boat is sucked down to the water surface, and the way you handle the chines and the run aft of the fin is important.

The boat is NOT going to teeter and rock fwd, just think about how much dynamic lift is coming from the flattish surfaces at and just aft of the centercase. If it did rock fwd, then long before the bow hit the water surface, the transom would be well out, you would have lost the rudder and in all sorts of strife.

Interesting side note, there is a Cat, here in Australia and NZ called the Paper Tiger, very simply hull, and there is a very notable kink in the hull surface 300mm from the transom. It kinks up probably 10mm. One sailor decided that this was slow, so he faired it out, I would have been 14 at the time. He never made it down wind, kink was back within a week, the suck generated by that kink, keeps the bows out.

Then, you launch of the face of a wave, there is no water under the mast, and the boat starts to rotate downwards (at the bow) and it will hit the water surface at some stage. If you have big fat “Uish” sections fwd, sure you will get some lift, but you will also be driving a big wedge into the back of the wave in front of you, slow down rapidly, inertia of the rig will increase and your lining up for a pitch pole.

WRT the 49er, it’s fine and straight and in many cases the “Freud” angle at the gunwale of a 49er is less than that of say a 470, 50mm above WL.

So the 49er carves, is dose not slow down as much, and as the water level rises it meets almost the same Freud angle all the way to the gunwale.

Yes you can pitchpole 49er (and 29ers) but you really have to try or come off a really big wave.

Yes it’s scary, doing 20+knts in a GP 18teen with 100mm of green water over the foredeck require fortitude and confidence that it would come out. If you need any proof of that go, look at the Nokia video again.

In summary, in front of the FIN is all about upwind with virtually no compromise made, no round “Uish” sections to promote lift, quite the contrary, the Vee sections, allow the boat to stay down and have a far lower “sum of drags” rather than slapping about trying to plane before you have enough speed to do so. 49ers just comes out when it’s good and ready too!

The aft-run (aft of the fin) is all about downwind, sure some careful maths is down to make sure that there is not too much area, which could be overly draggy and the run aft especially in the last 10% is as straight as a gun-barrel. (Chine width of the 89er is less than the 79er because the run is longer)

Few transition tricks at the mid-point, to fuse the 2 sections together, but otherwise, “best the 2 shall never compromise each other”.

Few comments on chine sharpness and hollows aft.

Dad did cover this in his books, and more recently, initially with the 49er, we had to stipulate the minimum sharpness of the chine. Rule has been discarded because it was to hard to police! And there is the famous Laser experiment I did with the late Ian Bruce in Canada in 1978. Everything that tells us that if you can get a clean water release (ie sharp chine or a change in interface) the faster you will go, especially once planning. BTW, point of diminishing return seem to be about a RAD of ½ mm when it come to chine radius.

Hollows, there is that famous shot in Dad’s book of Entrad on the Nth shore of Auckland, in 1985-6 doing +30knts, I was in the bow, and I was probably 1m behind the transom, and Matt and Brownie where behind me, get up over 20 knts and the hollow work amazingly well, under 15 knts it sucks!

70-75% of any race is up-wind and likely to be sub 15knts.

When I said my mantra to my father around 1991-2, and you have to understand that we did the NE course that year at an extraordinary speed, that is yet to be bettered! If you’re on a good thing, why not stick to it? My father took off into his study and we lost him for a few days only to emerge with a new appetite for design and a very willing partner in what we (he and I) were doing. He was an amazing man, never told me I could not do something, often asked me why and even if I did not know why, if I was adamant, he backed me and worked out why later.

He never said, “that’s clever” or “I had not thought of it like that before” but this, in the midst of the GP, lots of 18teens, lots of experimentation, it was only 2 years before we started penciling the 49er, a year or so after that the 29er, they were very busy times.

But we never looked at Uish section fwd & terms like isoclinal entered our vocabulary!

jB
 

JulianB

Super Anarchist
1,181
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Sydney mostly
So I have a request as to whats a Freud angle.
To be honest I only heard the term a few years ago.
I used to refer to it as a wedge angle, so it's the angle the water is split at.
I have done a comparison between the 49er and 470 and that's because I have both sets of 3D files, no other reason.
1663048047946.png

Blue/yellow is the 470
Red/White is the 49er
Yellow and White are the ref waterlines.
470 is 17.86°/ 35.72° @ WL
49er is 11.63°/23.26° @ WL

Even at the gunwale the 49er is still finer than a 470 at the WL.

People can argue that a 470 is 4.7m LOA and a 49er is 4.99m LOA, so the 49er should be for-shortened but it still won't alter the above facts much.
I have left them as is for authenticity, rather than fudge, I will leave that to others.
 

JulianB

Super Anarchist
1,181
1,605
Sydney mostly
So I have a request as to whats a Freud angle.
To be honest I only heard the term a few years ago.
I used to refer to it as a wedge angle, so it's the angle the water is split at.
I have done a comparison between the 49er and 470 and that's because I have both sets of 3D files, no other reason.
View attachment 540830
Blue/yellow is the 470
Red/White is the 49er
Yellow and White are the ref waterlines.
470 is 17.86°/ 35.72° @ WL
49er is 11.63°/23.26° @ WL

Even at the gunwale the 49er is still finer than a 470 at the WL.

People can argue that a 470 is 4.7m LOA and a 49er is 4.99m LOA, so the 49er should be for-shortened but it still won't alter the above facts much.
I have left them as is for authenticity, rather than fudge, I will leave that to others.
Thanks Julian. I have the original mast which is in good shape. Will be re laqueuring it so I'll be able to see any problems. Got some sails good enough for a few outings I reckon. I'll have some questions when it all starts coming together.
I'm here if you need help! jB
 
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Thanks Julian. I have the original mast which is in good shape. Will be re laqueuring it so I'll be able to see any problems. Got some sails good enough for a few outings I reckon. I'll have some questions when it all starts coming together.
Looking forward to the re-fit thread on this too!
 

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