89er

[allweather]

I don't have any hydraulics on the boat, we take the D2's off, because that's were we attach the lifting slings, but other than lowering the mast a few times, I have not backed the tension off.

Sorry, I got jumbled between thread, my mistake.
Even better about retaining tension over the days then for nailing things down.

Good to know about using weights, I'm currently debating going with that or winding twine around the stay but no idea but trial and error about the diameter... 1mm sounds good to start since I already have it on hand.

We would hit a wind speed and the wires on BNZ would take-off, as in hum, and BNZ exited backwards.

That's amazing to hear about and a bit funny considering dyform is often coined the superior wire!

Got it on the fence.

 

[DickDastardly]

Had coffee with GT this morning, helping him with your problem and I believe it's resolved.

McMillan has just brought 800kgs of 29er mast material (2 lots/extrusions of 1/2 tonne press excluding wastage, each, minimum order) and it's up 240% in cost at that quantity. Just getting it pressed was a one year process. Then getting it from NZ to AUS, holly shit.

And it's not just the 29er or Tasar, it's across all parts of the sport and off-course the alloy window industry will feel that acutely!

We as a industry need to look at alloys (if we chose to stay that way) for-instance, the 29er alloy is a military grade alloy that can only be pressed in NZ. The POMs (UK) have tried, the Canadians, the Mericans, in-fact the only other place that I am aware of that can do it is Brazil.
Can get really good extrusions out of Asia and Iceland but not 29er mast alloy, so when Ovington next orders it will be probably NZ extruded, add to that logistics is not going to be pretty. And I stress, this is across the board, no alloy mast-ed boat will escape this fate!

The other bit's like booms and simple "no-bending tubes" (but booms bend) there are plenty of extruder's across the world that can do that and minimises costs, but good hi end masts that last more than a year, ya got a problem!

The 787/A350 possibly very smart decisions, going away from alloy to something which has a significantly longer life span.

49er going to 3Di sails was also driven by that decision process, sails that are 125% (in cost) so more expensive, but if the decisions made by the 2 (49er & FX) Dutch WC (mirrored by others in the fleet) are anything to go by, the Jibs, at-least, are lasting 3+ times as long and we could be down to 1 main a year. Matters not if it's 3di or Stratis or any of another 10 processes, need to think running cost rather than purchase price. The Tasar mast is extraordinary, last 10-15 years easily. But the Tasar mast can only be extruded in Seattle! The sails are multi year.

All classes are going to have to look at costs, that was a major theme of my conversations in Toronto and making early calls to evolve (like 787/A350 process) will save the sailors a lot of money, time and effort.

Lots of money, let me just give you an example. 29er, JC (Kiwi Builder, Ex Norths and Southern) made a statement 6-7 years ago that the jib was now out of spec. So by that, the kids have evolved and are pushing the boats so much harder that the life span of a jib and the number of jibs per year that a boat goes through was starting to become un-acceptable.

And this is not just a 29er problem, most of the other "youth" classes burn through jibs at twice the rate of a 29er, a) because they are dacron, b) because they have light, medium and heavy air jibs so often they end up caught out and destroying a jib in a single outing & c) we (29er) can mandate that a jib is made to a specific weight.

2018 HK worlds, should have been a wake up call. 14 brand new jibs blew out in one day, (it was really fresh, but the kids had evolved and could handle it). It was limited to 14, because we only had 14 new spares ( and I repeat, it was a extraordinary worlds, kids had a huge time).

Getting modifications to the jib, post HK has been like pulling teeth. You often don't get it right the first time, this was one of those cases, it's better, slowed it down, but, for us, not good enough. So a 2nd "prototype" was generated after a conversation between the 3 builders (JC, CT and me) and we were (or I was) pilloried for doing it (it was trialed in Australia, it's now being trialed in Europe). Re-active rather than pro-active, it's now being considered for adoption.

If you do that maths, the money spent on existing technology is mind blowing.
And again I stress, the cost to the 29er parents is far less compared to other classes!

Your exec (Tasar) seem to be taking all that on-board, hence my comment your in good hands. 49er has constantly evolved, in-fact they have been really pro-active on this.

About a year back a committee in WS made a report and the builders and the class (49er) took that on-board, used that report, and made changes to the hull construction to double the life expectancy of a 49er hull in competitive trim. Using the WS report, got it through all the stages. Most importantly worked as a team, all players, CRH, Class, Builders & WS.

We also developed a "retro-fit" kit to enhance existing boats.

We all need to be pro-active rather than re-active, if we want the sport to grow.

I am confient that the Tasar Exc, (and I know that 49er Exc) are pro-active!>

Great news on both fronts Julian. I do hope the Tasar Exec does get the message. A look at the entry list for the Nats is telling. Short, and old. Not much of a visible pipeline of younger crews. I'd gently disagree that a Tasar jib is multi-year, however. 12 months tops. Mains maybe 24.

From an economics perspective (as in the persepective that looks at supply and demand) cost needs to be assessed at the end-user point in the supply chain. Your analysis is no doubt correct at a materials and technology costs level but there's more to it. In general technological improvement reduces costs. Except in sailing and medical devices...

While bespoke units such as Tasar mast sections are wonderful in their own right, if they become effectively made of unobtainum (e.g. through being a unique and proprietary item, even if made from a bog standard material) then monopoly pricing dynamics will kick in all along the supply chain (not just at the origin) and kill a class just as effectively as arms race pricing dynamics near killed the 18s a few decades back. Hopefully class executives and other interested parties get that. As you've pointed out, (re)designing around these constraints can be an excellent strategy - and should be a strategy that's built into the class rules.

 

[JulianB]

Sorry, I got jumbled between thread, my mistake.
Even better about retaining tension over the days then for nailing things down.

The other bit of useless information is that as I understand, if when backing your rig off, you DON"T go below about 10-12% of WL, then the Dynema dose NOT recoil.

In my case, that's about 50-60kgs on the shrouds and to just ensure the mast stays in the boat on the trailer, on the hard at RANSA, I will have to exceed that.

Obviously SYD -> PL, 20 hours behind the car, it will re-coil, so we will have to re-settle, but that is a 5 min job and compared to potential damage, it irrelevant!

 

[DickDastardly]

@JulianB - looks the goods, even if the sight of GT with the Instrument of Authority in hand is somewhat unsettling.

Have you ever considered whether the scow concept as currently being promulgated in open classes plays to sports boats? (as opposed to the USA Lake variety of scows).

 

[JulianB]

I'd gently disagree that a Tasar jib is multi-year, however. 12 months tops. Mains maybe 24.

Maybe the WTC could take a leaf out of the I29erCA (if they do it, don't count your chickens) which would be to go up one weight in Jib material.

I think the 29er anbd Tasar sails are made from the same stuff as in um weight, think it's 4 or 5.
The idea WRT the 29er was to up the Jib say 4 to 5 which just happens to be the 49er material.

So post HK, what we did was look at the failure points in a 29er jib and re assess all the reinforcement, some were blatantly obvious, and what could only be described as a no bariner, even so, the Europeans who had not experienced HK conditions (it was blowing hi 20's and into the low 30's every day, the screams of joy as these kids came back to the club through the "gutter" where Middle Island is squashed up against the main land, and the wind often went up over 30+ knts, were delightful, I was on the ramp helping kids drag their boats out, and the look of delight, and can we go do that again, was priceless) so they (Europeans) blocked and blocked and blocked the spec change. Not even sure how it ended up going through.

Now our suggestion is that rather than use a lot of "sticky back" which is far more expensive than the sail cloth and heavy, is to go up a um (um = 1/1000 of an inch) and reduce the sticky back to what it should be.

Result is a jib almost the same weight, almost the same price, but infinitely tougher and if the trail jib in AUST is anything to go by, should last a lot longer.

Tasar could do the same thing.

When I started sailing 18teens (1970's), you always had a jib that was 1 oz (/yard²) heavier than the main, so if you main was 5oz, your jib was 6oz, not sure went that changed, probably with the introduction of mylar. Same - same, it never changes!

This lateral thinking is what we all need to do.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Boat (DP) all measured, came in at 572kgs (Light ship) so a bit heavier than I expected, but still approx 100kgs lighter than Skeeter or Vivace.
Beam came in at 3495mm, Length, quite short 8165mm. Draft 1815mm.

I should have a CBH in a week, once I get it, very happy to publish the whole measurement form for all to see.

Got 6 for Saturday, probably 460kgs, so be very interesting to see how we go!

jB

 

[JulianB]

Draft being measured!

 

[DickDastardly]

Maybe the WTC could take a leaf out of the I29erCA (if they do it, don't count your chickens) which would be to go up one weight in Jib material.

Now our suggestion is that rather than use a lot of "sticky back" which is far more expensive than the sail cloth and heavy, is to go up a um (um = 1/1000 of an inch) and reduce the sticky back to what it should be.

Result is a jib almost the same weight, almost the same price, but infinitely tougher and if the trail jib in AUST is anything to go by, should last a lot longer.

Tasar could do the same thing.

This lateral thinking is what we all need to do.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Boat (DP) all measured, came in at 572kgs (Light ship) so a bit heavier than I expected, but still approx 100kgs lighter than Skeeter or Vivace.
Beam came in at 3495mm, Length, quite short 8165mm. Draft 1815mm.

I should have a CBH in a week, once I get it, very happy to publish the whole measurement form for all to see.

Got 6 for Saturday, probably 460kgs, so be very interesting to see how we go!

jB

Hmm Tasar jibs fail in predictable ways so while a heavier material would help it may be beneficial to look at the construction.

Great news on the measurement. Very keen to see DP in action. It’s been a compelling story watching it emerge.

 

[JulianB]

As promised Don't Panic measurement form,

Not sure why it's not needed but draft is 1815mm, so 160mm of Bulb (Dia), 1420mm of fin depth & the boat is 235mm in the water at the keel (at 572kgs)

Another great sail yesterday, GT over cooked the crew, so we had 7, so he opted out, we went sailing with 6, and rough calc had us at almost exactly 1/2tonne crew weight.
So we had Jack, AlexB, Jimie (Beck), Oille, Me and Jess (Jack's GF and a bloody good sailor).

I got Jess to do a lot of the steering as I darted about looking at things, we started playing with rig tensions, and made a big difference, started getting the sail looking really good, 1/2 way, Jess steering, we started doing mid to hi, 7's all the time (uphill), I grabbed the helm back, we push the nose down (Jess was squashed up between Jimie and me) and she was calling the wind really well, anyway cut a long story short, started getting into the 8's uphill, and then it stopped being 7's and constantly 8's. Interestingly, we have the capacity to step the jib out at about 10°, did not like it at all, slowed down, bring it back into 7-8° and it took off, and sat in 8's.
Also much better when confronting chop/waves, inboard it did not notice waves, Jess (who normally sails a Flying Tiger) commented & was suprised by that.


Wind was 9-12 the occasional 14, max speed was 14.5knts, we assume under spinnaker. All the issues of the (few) days before had gone, but the loads on the spin sheet are massive, possibly running to tight! The decision to go with a A3 is the right decision even if the loads are massive, we would over run a A2 all the time. Even talk about the Code Zero.

Saturday, is likely to be fresh, we have 6 again, we are now measured and Code 7 cert.

Coming together quickly. Plan is to do the drone shoot in the next 2 weeks, so you will all have a bit to look at.

Should be fun, jB

 

[Foredeck Shuffle]

Is the spin pole length really 6.5 meters? Does that include a meter still inside the boat?

 

[Snowden]

Great stuff. What's the solution to the spin sheet load - double breakfast for the trimmer or more hardware?

 

[DickDastardly]

Is the spin pole length really 6.5 meters? Does that include a meter still inside the boat?

I guess it's measured from the mast but still sounds way long

 

[JulianB]

Is the spin pole length really 6.5 meters? Does that include a meter still inside the boat?

SPL is from the mast, and yes it's tad over 3m off the bow, as it should be with a 10.7m mast.

 

[JulianB]

Great stuff. What's the solution to the spin sheet load - double breakfast for the trimmer or more hardware?

Plan is to go racing and see what the loads are like in a race, trying to get depth, rather than honing about on the harbor. Near impossibly to work in a 2:1 spinsheet, so it may be just go to the gym young man. We used to have cleats sewn into our trapeze harnesses, going back to the mid 80's and the wire luff flatties (now Code Zeros), they had some load. Biggest issue is getting the swing straps long enough so the trimmer can get his arse over the side and brace himself, also good comms, so the guy alongside can lead a hand when needed.

But light boats, will get hi VMG's downhill and with that come low AWA's and with that comes load!

 

[sheeting yarns]

Would a snubbing winch work for the gennaker sheet? The loads are going to be high pulling a ton of displacement..

 

[Foredeck Shuffle]

SPL is from the mast, and yes it's tad over 3m off the bow, as it should be with a 10.7m mast.

That's awesome.

 

[JulianB]

Would a snubbing winch work for the gennaker sheet? The loads are going to be high pulling a ton of displacement..

Snubbing winch dose not help you pull it on, that's the issue. Already got 2 ratchets to hold it, maybe we increase the rope thickness as it goes through those ratchets for say 1m. But the boys inc Alex are gym bound!

 

[Bill E Goat]

Just had it over to GT

 

[JulianB]

Not sure why but out jib halyard decided to navigate itself into a strange position where we could only get it maybe 2m up the mast. Very inconvenient when trying to raise the jib in the lee of Clark Island. Many not pleasant words latter, and once we had back the tension in the D2's, (so we think it was about 4m off the deck, inside the mast, associated with the D2's) we got the jib up, 10-15mins late for the start, but better than returning to the dock. Off we went, GT steering (I was fuming). They tell me we took a lot of time out of all the boats (in our race), we certainly overtook a few going up the first work, great downhill ride, interrupted by a pretty big bang, which was the block that pulls the pole out, letting go, so we stripped 2 x M5 MT out of 6mm of brass. Spin was no longer at full hoist, but after some looking about, we could not see anything wrong so what the hell, we sent it, Max speed on one device was 16.8knts, on the other was 18.4knts, it was quick. Boat behaved well, no fin/bulb whopping, certainly some hum, GT still steering, we had to drop to get over Shark, then re set, no issue. (I'm guessing that we where carrying all the pole out load (about 2 tone) on a small low friction ring) pretty fast/pressed ride to Garden Island, GT relinquished the helm, I had calmed down by now, so another 2.5nmwork back up to Lady Bay, boat was doing between 7.4 and 8.2 knts, we were pointing similar angles to a Laser, tweaking the shrouds and D2's. Could not sheet the jib right, (the whole day) not sure why, got to the top mark, set the spin, hoping to catch the last of the boats in our race (we probably did not even properly start) and that low friction ring said enough and gave way, so pulled the kite off and 2-sailed home.

Sailing, were Hazza (my eldest son), Martin Mok, Shane Fairweather, GT, Kevin (Kiwi) Nixon and me, probably 510 kgs, wind was 16-20 knts, gradient NEer, perfect day. Other than the small issues, boat was great. Fastest sail to date, not unhappy, and the list (which Harry has emailed me) is getting shorter each time. Going to crawl up under the deck tomorrow and devise a plan, annoying (Alex is really pissed) but pretty minor in the scheme of things.

If it was easy, everyone would do it. Everyone wants to go again, 20knts not a issue now.

jB

 

[tedrules]

Hey Julian, She looks good. it will be good to see her when you get her fully cranked with no bugs. BTW LOA 8.17 looks a little short for an 8.5m boat. You may also find that the MUW is a little small with the MHB and MTW listed.

 

[JulianB]

Hey Julian, She looks good. it will be good to see her when you get her fully cranked with no bugs. BTW LOA 8.17 looks a little short for an 8.5m boat. You may also find that the MUW is a little small with the MHB and MTW listed.

Technically or theoretically HS of DP is 6.15kts, so if I was worried about maximising HS, then I would have gone to some effort to make sure it was 8.5m.

But I don't think I have taken it up-wind yet at or under HS, so whether its 8, or 8.2 or 8.5m is neither here nor there. I did have Dave (Lambourne) tell me I under cooked it, but again, not sure it's anything to get hung up about. I carries 1/2 tonne crew weight well, it's seemingly viceless so at the moment, maximise width, because that is important, but hull length, not so phased!

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

BTW, yep, pulled the 2 x M5 MT out of the brass, was up under there this morning (before the heat kick in). Brass is still there, and a rip in the FRP receiving tube. Not major! GT and I will be on the case Tuesday with the expectation of sailing Thursday, possibly Friday, and also Saturday.