89er

[Steve Clark]

I think it is possible to make a multi purchase spinnaker sheet. Look at Dragon Genoa sheets. In effect there is a fore and aft traveler. There is a jam cleat on the traveler car. There is a multi part tackle attached to the car such that when the sheet is in the cleat you have as much purchase as you need. The cool bit is that the cleat is arranged so that at the aft end, when the purchase is fully eased, there is a wedge that opens the cleat. So when you blow the sheet, the cleat opens and you aren’t stuck just at the end of the purchase range. You can leave the car aft, with the jaws open and have a conventional 1:1 sheet in light air or times when the sheet load is low.
The balls out elegant way to do this would be to have the whole thing under the deck.
SHC

 

[WCB]

I think it is possible to make a multi purchase spinnaker sheet. Look at Dragon Genoa sheets. In effect there is a fore and aft traveler. There is a jam cleat on the traveler car. There is a multi part tackle attached to the car such that when the sheet is in the cleat you have as much purchase as you need. The cool bit is that the cleat is arranged so that at the aft end, when the purchase is fully eased, there is a wedge that opens the cleat. So when you blow the sheet, the cleat opens and you aren’t stuck just at the end of the purchase range. You can leave the car aft, with the jaws open and have a conventional 1:1 sheet in light air or times when the sheet load is low.
The balls out elegant way to do this would be to have the whole thing under the deck.
SHC

210s have been doing this as well. It makes that fine tuning of the genoa that much easier, save for the wedge which I hadn't seen

 

[JulianB]

I have a spin foot lenght of about 8m, I have a pole protruding in front of the forestay 3+m. So my spin clew is coming back past the shrouds. The chafe on the spin sheet is 1 - 1.2m.

So I need to be able to play this spin sheet when in the gutters west of the bridge, and occasionally haul on to get up over a ferry wharf probably 800mm.

In less than a month's time I will be in PL, no ferry's wharfs where we are sailing. Gust hits, nose down 15⁰ sheet eased 600mm, boat accelerates. Gust dies, load drops, maybe Alex is helped by Jimmy to get it back on 500, then 600.

I won't do anything until well after PL.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I do have a 2:1 mainsheet with a 4:1 fine tune and the fine tune works with a Constrictor so when you run out of finetune it releases the coarse and after 2-3 iterations, that's working very well, few traps/tricks to be learnt!

I will detail it shortly if you wish.

jB

 

[sheeting yarns]

On Saturday, as you can see in the photo, we have big windows.
Had a fight with North (49er&FX) and also with Doyles about the inappropriateness of sending someone down to leeward to look for other boats. Yah got to be able to see if you want to have confidence to push it.

If you look closely at that photo that Adrian took, just above the bottom white speed strip on the jib, you will see a red leach ribbon!

Pretty obviously while sailing, it very visible, through the window.

Going up wind, particularly on the way home, I noticed that 90-95% of the time that leach ribbon was flying upwards. If I had to quantify it, I would say between 45-70 deg upwards.
(On the first leg, I had other things, front and center, so can't comment if it was or was not happening, I'm guessing it was)

Sure occasionally we had a fair bit of heel, and we would have had span-wise-drift but most of the time, we were within 10deg of flat. And even span-wise-drift, if you do the apparent wind vector would not account for the degree of verticalness! (new word)

So where is this vertical gradient of air flow coming from?

If it is, as I suspect, a vortex going from the hi-presure windward side of the main, the extent to which that is happening and how quickly it has formed, as this leach ribbon (it's a self tacking jib so right behind the mast and out 450mm) is surprising.

One of the things that is to be measured up and made as soon as I get back is a Cuff. We first did this with the late, great, Ian Bruce and the C2-Byte rig. My son mirrored it on the 18teen and they are now quite common. I'm doing it because it hard to reef a Cuff-Luff main quickly. Ian did it because he believed it would be hard to sell the technology of a Cuff-luff and possibly he is right.

We have done a lot of research on Cuff-luffs, initially we stumbled on it in 1996, (49ers) Dad had a not all together harmonious interchange with a Harvard Prof but empirical trumps theoretical. Now they are common place from Moths to AC.
The new 49er/FX mains have a very deliberate increased cuff size and the 49er sailors "close" the TE (of the cuff at the bottom) where as the Moth sailors leave it open and wide. That in itself is interesting.

If it is a vortex, and if a cuff minimises it then think of the benefits ;-

a) if you have vertical flow at the TE of the jib one would think that has to reduce the performance of the lower jib significantly.

b) if a vortex is forming that early that low down and that far fwd, then likewise, that has to reduce the performance of the lower main significantly,

c) That all lifts the CoE which reduces the SCP and therefore reduces available drive/speed, &

d) If the jib and main are working as seperate elements and not as one wing, that again reduces the efficiency and increases the drag of the whole package.

I was always going to put a cuff on! I find halyards exiting masts right at the point of max airspeed for 10 secs of ergonomic benefit a very screwed sense of priorities plus the evidence of cuffs reducing drag and increasing efficiency are so overwhelming I just was going to do it, but now I have a "right in you face" tell-tale (excuse the pun) indicator of whether its working or not.

I will close it, probably with velcro, (so I will follow the 49er route, but they do it by shackeling the downhaul tabs together), right behind the vang but it could be a interesting experiment to leave it open, like a Moth or the top of a 29er/49er and see what happens. Maybe there will be a flow through to the 29er/49er with velcro and maybe a tie 50mm below the boom.

That's the sort of thing that I am really looking fwd to quantifying.

All while having fun drinking quality Van Rouge (I am in French speaking New Caledonia after all) and occasionally sailing with some great mates against other great mates!

jB

There are definitely benefits in many areas to having a partial deck-sweeper on mainsails in classes which don't restrict development. In the 18's, Noakes Red started playing with a modified #2 mainsail and a new #1 mainsail last season and showed some incredible pace at times but suffered from being late on the water and with tuning and development time. They have refined the ideas over winter in Auckland so will be interesting to see how it goes at the 2023 JJ's. There is a downside to deck-sweeper mainsails that is apparent to 49er and moth sailors. Adjusting the cunno has a major effect on leech tension and foot depth due to the sail geometry. As you pull the cunno on, the foot gets flatter and leech twist is reduced. The leech twist is less consequence in the moths because the cunno is also bending the mast tip aft which compensates somewhat for the clew point coming down as the cunno is trimmed. Less so for the 49er and 18 footer. More work for the crew. But the gains from parasitic drag reduction and increased drive force at the bottom of the rig where there is minimal increase in roll-moment mean a significant increase in performance through the wind range but particularly at the top of the wind range.

 

[Frogman56]

See pics below, 'early' Code zero and 2:1 sheet!!

See the last pic with a flying block on the tail about 200 mm above the leecloth...

Evrything old is new again!

Frog

Arawatta 1927​

Builder: Charlie Hayes* for J.J.Watt.
Known measurements:Length 17'11 3/4", beam 7'7", depth 2'5". Another of Hayes' snub designs (flat stem),she was described as "more powerful than Yendys", and was kept in a shed next to Kurrawa Wharf (Neutral Bay).

 

[JulianB]

View attachment 571643

Need to update my spell check!

 

[JulianB]

See pics below, 'early' Code zero and 2:1 sheet!!

See the last pic with a flying block on the tail about 200 mm above the leecloth...

Evrything old is new again!

Frog

Arawatta 1927​

Builder: Charlie Hayes* for J.J.Watt.
Known measurements:Length 17'11 3/4", beam 7'7", depth 2'5". Another of Hayes' snub designs (flat stem),she was described as "more powerful than Yendys", and was kept in a shed next to Kurrawa Wharf (Neutral Bay).

Just to be clear, a 2:1 spin sheet would mean over 10m of rope to juggle in a gybe. That's really not a option. 5m is more than enough.

 

[JulianB]

Just to be clear, a 2:1 spin sheet would mean over 10m of rope to juggle in a gybe. That's really not a option. 5m is more than enough.

Actually I'm being stupid (yet again) presently juggling 10m.
The clew of the spin is about 5m aft of the forestay so it's 5m out and 5m back in.

That's 10m (dur) and we are slowly getting there.

2:1 would be 20m and I think it would be intolerable.

 

[Steve Clark]

I’m going to have to draw you a picture. I can see how you could do this with a constrictor, instead of a cam cleat, but I worry about the sheet being really able to fly out through a constrictor. I bought one, but never really trusted it..
I recognize ze that this might not work because of where your sheeting points are located, but then again, if the whole mess ran athwartship, one of the complications would vanish.
SHC

 

[beercanned]

I have a spin foot lenght of about 8m, I have a pole protruding in front of the forestay 3+m. So my spin clew is coming back past the shrouds. The chafe on the spin sheet is 1 - 1.2m.

So I need to be able to play this spin sheet when in the gutters west of the bridge, and occasionally haul on to get up over a ferry wharf probably 800mm.

In less than a month's time I will be in PL, no ferry's wharfs where we are sailing. Gust hits, nose down 15⁰ sheet eased 600mm, boat accelerates. Gust dies, load drops, maybe Alex is helped by Jimmy to get it back on 500, then 600.

I won't do anything until well after PL.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I do have a 2:1 mainsheet with a 4:1 fine tune and the fine tune works with a Constrictor so when you run out of finetune it releases the coarse and after 2-3 iterations, that's working very well, few traps/tricks to be learnt!

I will detail it shortly if you wish.

jB

Yes, love to see this arrangement. Thank you!

 

[JulianB]

View attachment 571788

In the photo directly above, you have the very wide cuff.
Every thing from my gliding days would tell me that is very hi drag.
The rule of thumb used to be a significant proportion of the drag was proportional the the width of the wake, and obviously you have quite a width there.

Re making cuffs work, if it was easy everyone would do it.
Maka, was quite inspirational when it came to cuffs, you never get them right the first time.
The C2 Byte was a Maka rig, and possibly along with Ian's apprehension, being a cantilever mast, Maka was possibly at his limit there.
5 years later with the C-Rigs and the Wing rigs, Maka, not a problem.

Nitro & Benny (Norths) had a few goes (49er & FX), I have not seen the latest version but I am told the tags are a little too far aft.
But that's one nationality speaking, another continent or nationality maybe tickle pink over how it works.

I do agree that Downhaul become a different animal with a cuff, but a good sailmaker will use that to his advantage provided he has enough guidance from the sailors.

(and that segways into whats happening in 49er/29er lands, watch this space)

That's possibly the big thing, Cuffs are not one-offs, they take a few goes and some patience, perseverance. Mass made sails, they become repeatable and a very good tool, but one-offs not so.

Call them something different, so say Cuff-socks, so what I am talking about is a 2ndary extra bit of sail material that is independant of the main, that wraps around the mast low down and cleans up the flow, I'm sure someone did it earlier, but in about 2002 we did it with the C2 Byte for reasons already mentioned. It worked! The test we did to make sure there was a benefit showed that there was. 2 boat testing done right is a power full tool.

Harry had it on Shaw and Partners, I'm sure some of you watch the 18teens. Interesting that Langman is now doing it, I know Whitty (Johno, as in the had his wings/pilot Whitty) was all about drag so no doubt he did it.

(BTW, Harry is now sailing on Lazarus, for those watching, often in the bow.)

I am doing it, again for the risk of repeating myself, so I can reef efficiently. I will have it fitted, hopefully tested and working before I go to PL. Happy to share that with you all.

My plan is to have it closed at the bottom, and most of the way up, just aft (50mm) of the vang.

Rational is is it's closed and I get re-attachment of the airflow even at deck level, then that should aid in sealing the front Hi-pressure regions of the main, which maybe, just maybe that VERTICALNESS (spell-check dose not like it) of the leach ribbon indicated it happening earlier and more aggressively that I would have thought.

jB

 

[JulianB]

I’m going to have to draw you a picture. I can see how you could do this with a constrictor, instead of a cam cleat, but I worry about the sheet being really able to fly out through a constrictor. I bought one, but never really trusted it..
I recognize ze that this might not work because of where your sheeting points are located, but then again, if the whole mess ran athwartship, one of the complications would vanish.
SHC

Hi Steve, if I chose to optimise the 89er for gutter sailing, first thing I will do is go for a true A2 (maybe a A1) and the sheet loads will probably 1/2ve, just because the CoE of the sail will move fwd and that will down load the sheet.

But I suspect that in PL and Airlie and Magnetic and Port Stephens, they are all passage races and we will have the opportunity to "bear-away" as far as we need.

I completely understand what your saying, I get it. My mainsheet is in the same vain.

Constrictors, did not work on the main halyard, no idea why the latest version failed, but shit happens. I will give it another go in the future.

On the mainsheet, we are at V4 I think and it works pretty well, Biggest benefit is lack of rope in the cockpit. 90% of the time you only touch the coarse pre-start and when something goes astray. The boat is so light that the boom never goes out past the qrt anyway, max AWA is probably 40 degs other than dropping or setting the spin.

 

[JulianB]

JB, -----------------------------------------------------

On a separate note: where I can read up on the developments in the 49er and (especially) 29er? We bantered back and forth on this a few years ago and it was super interesting... Kinda like Joe Greasemonkey (me) having a chat with Adrian Newey about the latest Red Bull F1 mods, but this is the glory of sailing...

I have not forgotten you Speng just :-

a) need to work out what I can and cannot say
b) need to talk to a few people whom I trust about this &
c) need enough time to get my chain-mail amour on as this will result in a hiding from hell

Plus I am on holiday in Noumea with a gorgeous woman who stupidly married me almost 40 years ago and really not in the mood for a downer of this magnitude.

The really stupid thing is that maybe in 2006-7 I was sat down on a veranda just outside Montreal by the late great(s) Ian and Ward and they for-told exactly what would happen and exactly how it would end and what they recommended I do, and why I should do that.

To date, I can't fault their advice and am following it to the tee.

The even more absurd thing is it's all so pointless, monumental waste of time.

The 2 classes are so different in their approach to issues, it's hard to believe they are both 9ers.
One is pro-active, the other is re-active.

One is a pleasure to deal with.
The other, have not had a constructive conversation for over 4 years.

Ping me in a week, by then I will have enough time to converse with others.

But I'm constantly under pressure to "do something, anything".

The issue for me is whats the benefit for the sailor in doing anything when all the power lies in their hands and they arn't doing anything.

Ping me in a week, I will be back in SYD then, preparing for PL.

 

[JulianB]

Yes, love to see this arrangement. Thank you!

Let me get back to SYD and take some photos.
Very happy to explain it, it seems to work well.

 

[Speng]

I have not forgotten you Speng just :-

a) need to work out what I can and cannot say
b) need to talk to a few people whom I trust about this &
c) need enough time to get my chain-mail amour on as this will result in a hiding from hell

Plus I am on holiday in Noumea with a gorgeous woman who stupidly married me almost 40 years ago and really not in the mood for a downer of this magnitude.

The really stupid thing is that maybe in 2006-7 I was sat down on a veranda just outside Montreal by the late great(s) Ian and Ward and they for-told exactly what would happen and exactly how it would end and what they recommended I do, and why I should do that.

To date, I can't fault their advice and am following it to the tee.

The even more absurd thing is it's all so pointless, monumental waste of time.

The 2 classes are so different in their approach to issues, it's hard to believe they are both 9ers.
One is pro-active, the other is re-active.

One is a pleasure to deal with.
The other, have not had a constructive conversation for over 4 years.

Ping me in a week, by then I will have enough time to converse with others.

But I'm constantly under pressure to "do something, anything".

The issue for me is whats the benefit for the sailor in doing anything when all the power lies in their hands and they arn't doing anything.

Ping me in a week, I will be back in SYD then, preparing for PL.

Not looking to know any future plans that can't easily be shared but more like wanting to know what's happened in the last few years when I wasn't paying attention. I really like the 49erFXs in the Olympics. I thought they were far more visually appealing than the Nacras (and I'm a cat guy). I would love to see more coed racing at the highest level (especially when the teams get smart and have the women helm 🤦🏾‍♂️) and I think the FX could be the boat.

IIRC the 29ers went to composite foils because the Al ones were getting difficult to source. Have there been other significant changes? I think the 49er sails look cool, it's ridiculous that IMOCAs are talking about new sails every four years including a Vendee Globe and we still have dinghy sails made out of old raincoats.

 

[jackolantern]

So you've got the turning block on the rail that the sheet leads through before leading to a fairlead block then to the trimmer.

Add a cleat on the inboard side of the fairlead block and add a 4:1 purchase on the top of the wing aft of the turning block on the rail. That 4:1 purchase manipulates a friction ring in between the turning block and the fairlead. The spin sheet is run through that friction ring full time. The tail of the purchase is led in such a way that it's easy for the trimmer to reach.

When you're loaded up and at a roughly happy gross trim, cleat the 1:1 spin sheet and take up on the 4:1 sheet fine tune/deflector. The friction ring pulls the sheet aft in a dogleg and you're trimming the spin sheet with a 2:1 power factor via that friction ring.

Same concept as an Etchells halyard fine tune setup where the halyard itself is the coarse tune and you deflect the halyard under deck with a purchase to fine tune tension.

 

[JulianB]

So you've got the turning block on the rail that the sheet leads through before leading to a fairlead block then to the trimmer.

Add a cleat on the inboard side of the fairlead block and add a 4:1 purchase on the top of the wing aft of the turning block on the rail. That 4:1 purchase manipulates a friction ring in between the turning block and the fairlead. The spin sheet is run through that friction ring full time. The tail of the purchase is led in such a way that it's easy for the trimmer to reach.

When you're loaded up and at a roughly happy gross trim, cleat the 1:1 spin sheet and take up on the 4:1 sheet fine tune/deflector. The friction ring pulls the sheet aft in a dogleg and you're trimming the spin sheet with a 2:1 power factor via that friction ring.


Same concept as an Etchells halyard fine tune setup where the halyard itself is the coarse tune and you deflect the halyard under deck with a purchase to fine tune tension.

Guys, I'm not going to adopt some elaborate purchase system for a race that I may do once a year.

Possibly doing a complexe modification for an eventually that may happen 1% of its racing life and then for maybe 1/3 of that race (downwind) and then for maybe 10% of the time (coming up over a ferry wharf) all the time f--king up 2/3's of the race (upwind with tracks and blocks under your arse) all the while next year wind maybe screwed 20⁰ and we won't have the problem.

You guys can devise whatever elaborate system you wish, but this is a racing sportsboat and the crew inc me just need to suck it up!

 

[longy]

^^ Totally agree. Send the trimmer back to the gym!

 

[allweather]

You guys can devise whatever elaborate system you wish, but this is a racing sportsboat and the crew inc me just need to suck it up!

The owner has spoken, crew ordered to lift weights go sailing until strength improves. Which is the best kind of burning to be honest.

Anyway, a second vote of curiousity for that main sheet arrangement. I've tried to come up with how you're doing it since you first mentioned the system, but can't quite figure it out.

 

[JulianB]

OK, devil is in the detail

Top is showing when the finetune is active.
Bottom is showing when you have let the finetune go and the primary sheet becomes active.

Black circles are my main mainsheet blocks, I'm using 55mm Ronstan air blocks with dynema attachments.
White is quite light schockcord, started with 4mm, now down to 3mm, it pulls the constrictor aft.
Red is my primary mainsheet, I'm using a 8mm something hardish and coarse
Cyan is the low friction ring, think its a 12mm ID.
Dark-green is the constrictor trip line. I have used a Allen exit box in the bottom of the boom with a plain sheave,
Blue is the constrictor body (which I cut way down)

So in the top one, with the fine-tune active, the stopper is fwd, the shockcord pull the constrictor aft, the constrictor grabs the 8mm Red line, so there is no load in the red line fwd of the blue block.

In the lower one, you have let the fine-tune go, the stopper/knot, comes right aft, and pushes up against the low-friction ring which in turn moves aft, and the green trip line is pulled, that overcomes the tension in the shockcord and pulled the constrictor sock fwd and releases the red rope, so it becomes active.

Ok, the leasons we learnt.

Primary mainsheet has not altered, same rope, same stopper, same low-friction ring, same blocks. We have always had ratchet block on the primary and fine-tune sheets.

We initially had a cleat on the fine tune, big mistake.
We also only had 2:1 on the fine-tune, that plus the 2:1 on the primary = 4:1 and that was not enough. We also only had 800mm of throw, which also was not enough.

We then went 3:1 on the fine-tune and increased the range/throw to 1m, took the cleat away, a lot better but still not good enough.

Now we have a 4:1 cascade purchase on the fine-tune, so by that, there is a 2:1 4mm Dynema, with another 2:1 using M6 Dinghy-sheet-line on the end of that. It runs almost the full length inside the boom which is 4m LOA. We use 40mm Ronstan air-blocks, and we have done that (Cascade and airblocks) to reduce the friction/lag in the system. So we have approx 1600-1700mm throw/range in the fine tune, so that = 1/2 or 800-850mm throw in the mainsheet and that is more than enough to get to boom out over the qrt.

We put a big blue mark on the primary sheet and provided thats infront o the constrictor block we know we can go block to block with the mainsheet.

When you let the fine-tune go, about 300mm hangs out of the bottom of the boom, just infront of the primary mainsheet ratchet block.

Still early days but it seems to work, very little mainsheet in the cockpit, sheet hand can haul the main on quickly and then he or someone else grabs the fine tune and it (primary) locks off.

If the primary is over sheeted, again, 2nd set of hands grabs the primary as the sheet hand eases the fine-tune until the blue mark is approx where it should be, and then lets go (off the primary) as the fine-tune takes over again.

I will take photos in a few days for you.

jB