89er

Raz'r

Super Anarchist
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De Nile
I was thinking an extra auto-ratchet block. One at the normal spot, then one at the forward end of the cockpit before the lead to the trimmer. So you get 2 big turns around a ratchet. Still need to grunt it in, but takes a load off the shoulders to hold it, once in. Drop it and the auto-ratchet disengages. No extra line.
 

JulianB

Super Anarchist
1,335
1,977
Sydney mostly
I was thinking an extra auto-ratchet block. One at the normal spot, then one at the forward end of the cockpit before the lead to the trimmer. So you get 2 big turns around a ratchet. Still need to grunt it in, but takes a load off the shoulders to hold it, once in. Drop it and the auto-ratchet disengages. No extra line.

There is a 150⁰ wrap around the primary ratchet block which is one of those Fredriksens (now Ronstan) which are the only blocks that will hack the load. We then have a 2nd auto ratchet fwd with probably a 100⁰ wrap around that.

What I may try, if we have issues with holding in PL is to fatten the 8mm spinsheet up for the 1m where it goes around the Fredriksen sheave. That plan A if we have an issue.


KISS!!!!
 

JulianB

Super Anarchist
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Sydney mostly
Ultimately sheet load is driven by sail load, which is a function of square footage and righting moment. But you know that.
When were you planning to be in RI?
SHC

Hi mate.

I will be there late June.
This Feb-March trip will be UK, France, Italy and Swiss.

The trip got severely bookended.
Coming to UK straight from Port Lincoln and have to be back in Sydney on the 8th.

No time to do you fine people justice.

Re spins, it's obviously to position of the CoE WRT the axis (mast head to tip of pole) as well as area.
Code Zero, wire luff flattie will have a bucket load more load than a A1/balloon per m² .

A3 is a lot harder to hang onto than a A2 all other things being equal.
 

Steve Clark

Super Anarchist
Did I forget the cosine of the angle of the sheet to centerline?
I recently learned that Harken has introduced small ratchets with variously more holding power. These would obviously vaporize on contact with Don’t Panic’s sheet loads, but maybe there is an opportunity to do something custom and tricky.
Hope to see you in June.
SHC
 
problem with twin auto ratchets is that they rarely allow gybes freely. one liitle bit of drag on rope causes the first one to catch then the second one loads up.. and then the leech wont come around the forestay.... bastard bastard bastard!!!!! the big phu has the fredrickson autos and i didnt get along with them. we run harken 55s on the viper because you can adjust when the auto ratchet comes in to play. we have them dialled up to the highest setting and the viper is a tiny kite. tried dual autoratchets on the rocket and it never gybed properly. went back to single autos and 55 air block. and you need to have the autratchet at the last block before it gets to trimmer.. having it at the back of boat and then to another block creates too much friction and the autoratchet will kick in when your trying to free run rope out. however each boats setup is different and you will need to experiment with ropes, sizes, ratchets and beer holders... shit im racing against the 89er in 2 weeks... go dual ratchets JB!! LOL
 

JulianB

Super Anarchist
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Sydney mostly
Did I forget the cosine of the angle of the sheet to centerline?
I recently learned that Harken has introduced small ratchets with variously more holding power. These would obviously vaporize on contact with Don’t Panic’s sheet loads, but maybe there is an opportunity to do something custom and tricky.
Hope to see you in June.
SHC

I have possibly 30 Harken blocks and another 20 Harken cleats on the boat.
I am not married to anyone, I also have Ronstan, Allen, Wichard and Nodus, all picked for what they are best at.

Back in the good old days, I think they where 0009 Ratchets, big blocks, 50 or 75mm sheave, really good on the rope and holding power until the paw blew up, which was not flash on the back 9 on the way to the finish.

Someone worked out how to pull the block apart and put a brass or Ti Paw in there and then they lasted 1/2 season, where as the old faithful Riley (rope-eater) never blew up (SS paw) but ate the rope vaicarously.

Then we started using the Fredriksens, and I still have some of the originals that I used and they still work to this day, possibly 20 years on.

That being said, for a 29er the 2135 I love, Harken have done a fabulous job with those.
 

allweather

Member
446
83
baltic
OK, devil is in the detail
Okay, this is neat and I like that the fine tune ends up hidden in the boom. Very tidy.
A little less insane than what impression I got at first though. Misunderstood that you only have one rope(sheet) that somehow auto engages a fine tune at the end of travel. Puzzled over how that would work and it's just super messy instead.

Going to keep that bit about friction in mind for when I next need to service outhaul on another boat. That one is sticky in low winds but otherwise not getting anywhere once it's above 20knots.
 

JulianB

Super Anarchist
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Sydney mostly
Punisher, the big upside of the Fredriksen is that they are very rope diameter sensitive.

Not sure of the actual diameters but own spin sheets are "nominally" 8mm, and the center of the sheave is smooth, so they slide across that if you don't put too much load on the sheet.

But if you load the sheet and it flattens into the sheave, it pick out the holes in the edges and grips.

If that is not enough, you thread in a bit of 1 or 1.5mm whatever dow the inside of the core for 800mm or a 1m whee you need it, and then it always grabs because yu have fattened the rope out to say 9.5mm Dia for that 800mm -> 1m distance.

Very KISS, and gybes are not a problem!
 

Rantifarian

Rantifarian
We used twin harkens on the Elliott 780. It was easy enough to hold the kite on breeze, zero chance of trimming on without a bearaway though. As others have said it made gybing harder. We did try switching the transom ratchet off and that made a big difference in lighter air.

We killed two of the ronstan ratchets in the three or so years we had the boat, and no harkens. I wondered if the higher holding power loaded an individual block more than spreading it over two ratchets, causing the failure.
 

JulianB

Super Anarchist
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Sydney mostly
Seems some people are confused

A RF46100 good for main-sheet on a 29er but not Spin-sheets
RF56100 OK for 29er and 49er spin sheets and main sheet.

What I am refering to as a Fredriksen is now a RF62100 and I am using them as the primary ratchet on the 89er spinsheet, the 2ndary is the RF56100 (in auto mode). I am not expecting to have any issues with those and looking around the boat park, the bulk of the top end Sports boats use this combination.

The Fredriksen/RF62100 has a 60mm dia alloy sheave and a large number of holes give it grip.
Beautiful bit of industrial design (Danish).

I am using RF56100 (50mm sheave/plastic) on my main-sheet & fine-tune.
and I am using RF46100 (40mm sheave/plastic) in my traveler system.

I believe both of those blocks are well speced for the job, and don't expect any issues.
A Harken 2135 or a Allen 2360 I would also have total confidence on my main/fine-tune.

The RF72100 is a really big block made in the same vein as a 62100/Fredriksen, just bigger and I have little doubt would be able to handle the 89ers spin loads, infact I think it would be a over kill.
I would probably need to use 10-11mm rope, (it's speced to 12mm) and I ani't going to do that.
I have not seen many in use on 18teens or Sportsboats, possibly a great ratchet block for a heavier boat (2-3-4 Tonne)

Again, the Fredriksen/62100 is speced up to 10mm rope, if I have a issue, then I will fatten it up from 8mm to say 9 - 9.5mm just where I need it.
 

pqbon

Anarchist
517
252
Cambridge UK
problem with twin auto ratchets is that they rarely allow gybes freely. one liitle bit of drag on rope causes the first one to catch then the second one loads up.. and then the leech wont come around the forestay.... bastard bastard bastard!!!!! the big phu has the fredrickson autos and i didnt get along with them. we run harken 55s on the viper because you can adjust when the auto ratchet comes in to play. we have them dialled up to the highest setting and the viper is a tiny kite. tried dual autoratchets on the rocket and it never gybed properly. went back to single autos and 55 air block. and you need to have the autratchet at the last block before it gets to trimmer.. having it at the back of boat and then to another block creates too much friction and the autoratchet will kick in when your trying to free run rope out. however each boats setup is different and you will need to experiment with ropes, sizes, ratchets and beer holders... shit im racing against the 89er in 2 weeks... go dual ratchets JB!! LOL
Have you tried the Harken High Threshold Auto ratchets?
 

jackolantern

Super Anarchist
1,759
574
Found that they successfully engage at the higher loads but will explode at the same load as the less aggressive ones.
 

JulianB

Super Anarchist
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Sydney mostly
Just got this a day or so ago, coming off the Start line, photo taken by the start-crew.

1675715914922.png

For those of you who know Sydney, Clark Island is just to the aft windward qrt of us, 200m.
Your looking into Athol Bight (the Zoo), and Bradley's Head is just to the right, infact we sailed virtually to it on this tack
Probably 12-14knts building NEer, heading to the pigs, by the time we got there lots of "lambs in the padlock".
Clewless is a Farr 30, I think Tasty is directly behind her, obscured. Melges infront of us, 24 or 28.


1675715844271.png

I promissed photos of my mainsheet system, you can see it here in action. You can see the Constrictor, loose primary mainsheet going fwd to a ractchet block and a 2nd block just infront of that which is the fine-tune.

Also interestingly my leach ribbon on the jib is streaming "properly".
We also found this with the 49er testing, when you where not sheeted right in and not fully pressed, the flow around the bottom of the main was OK, but when you went max hick and strapped the main in, that's when you got the vortex.

So we played with the size of the cuff, and eliminated 99% of the "swirl".
 

allweather

Member
446
83
baltic
That looks ridiculously flat compared to the Farr, and far more comfortable hiking compared to what I remember on said Farr 30s.

Super nice, you aren‘t even hiking full force yet either?
 

JulianB

Super Anarchist
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Sydney mostly
Looks good - flat is fast! Are you cracked off a bit there to cover the fleet or just a trick of the angle?

The position of the mainsheet and hawse would suggest we are in optimum VMG mode. To be honest we were learning very quickly as to if we could out point say Tasty, and Farr/Mumm 30's are no slouch when it comes to point angle, but we sailed straight over the top of everyone quite comfortably. We had never been boat on boat with anyone before this moment!

#2 jib on, so slightly under cooked in the 12-14knts, but by the time we got 1/2 way up the track, we where pressed.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

One of the crew has been reading this also (Jimmy) and he commented that on the way back up, where "Kelly" suggested we lost 5 mins, we did get stuck behind a "block of flats", one of those very square floating restaurants that was motoring slowly up the gutter from Humbug to Berry's Bay. Not sure we lost 5 mins, but it took repeated goes past her. Plus Jimmy commented that we still don't know the boat, especially in that fickle-ed changing environment. We should have fattened up and used a lot more main/jib sheet movement to keep it on it's feet.

And again GT and I had a bit of a chat yesterday while doing trailer stuff in prep for the 20 hr drive to PL. Its amazing how forgiving the boat is, even up at 45° heel, still steers straight and doe not slow down much. Obviously we won't get 7-8 knts of BS up on it's ear, but it's well balanced and easy to get back on her feet.

Bit of a mixed crew this weekend, no Jack or Jimmy, so it will be interesting to see where we are at against the whole fleet in more open harbor racing.
 
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