89er

JulianB

Super Anarchist
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1,550
Sydney mostly
:D  This is what I meant, I couldn‘t quite match your numbers to those I had found for other fabrics. Specifically since tensile strength and stiffness are both measured in Pascal, and then there are the numbers for finished laminate at given fiber/epoxy ratio. 

Anyway, in that case I‘ll do some specific hunting to find basalt with the strength relative carbon you quoted now that I better know which you meant.

As far as stiffness goes I‘ve only seen 10-20% or so greater than eglass and not near carbon‘s over twice as stiff as either! So that was where my initial confusion came from. (Edit: Never mind, shouldn‘t post when tired, just realized that strain is dimensionless)

Do you happen to have the data sheet for the stuff you‘re using?
www.basaltft.com, it was on the bottom of Sunday's post!  enjoy,  jB

Here the direct link so you don't have to go searching, when your tired, https://www.basaltft.com/pdf/FTW_Technical_Data_Sheet.pdf

 

allweather

Member
414
82
baltic
Here the direct link so you don't have to go searching
:rolleyes: Go me, missing the very visible link you had already posted...
Thank you for pointing that out and relinking.

Interesting that I do find the two grades of fabrics as you've mentioned, but getting the greater strength one in the right weight is going to take some more searching here. Anyway, thanks for the tech talk and now back to boat building.

 

JulianB

Super Anarchist
1,162
1,550
Sydney mostly
:rolleyes: Go me, missing the very visible link you had already posted...
Thank you for pointing that out and relinking.

Interesting that I do find the two grades of fabrics as you've mentioned, but getting the greater strength one in the right weight is going to take some more searching here. Anyway, thanks for the tech talk and now back to boat building.
So it was explained to me that Russia & the Ukraine consider the development and use of Basalt far more seriously than anyone one else. So they want to exploit its use as things like cement reinforcement, use in cars/panels and the alike where as just about everyone else is only really interested in its anti wicking properties which is mostly exploited in FRP tank and pressure vessel making.

So again horses for courses.

If your building water tanks moderate MPa is OK especially given its approx twice std glass.

Wanting non rusting cement reinforcement then higher MPa has its benefits.

 

JulianB

Super Anarchist
1,162
1,550
Sydney mostly
Back to the scheduled programme

Any thought to make the 89'er have traps for sportboats events and wings for IRC events?
That would be popular in European lakes and Asia
a) I have already been contact from Switzerland about the possibility, and if you think about it, Trapeeze tend to reduce the loads on a boat, the only increase come from the probably increase in speed.

& b) go back to the mantra, this boat is for 4 fat old bastards, (& 1 young buck) and I have spent more time on trapeeze than I would guess most of you, and I'm not in a rush to go back there.

 

Boink

Super Anarchist
1,589
779
So it was explained to me that Russia & the Ukraine consider the development and use of Basalt far more seriously than anyone one else. So they want to exploit its use as things like cement reinforcement, use in cars/panels and the alike where as just about everyone else is only really interested in its anti wicking properties which is mostly exploited in FRP tank and pressure vessel making.

So again horses for courses.

If your building water tanks moderate MPa is OK especially given its approx twice std glass.

Wanting non rusting cement reinforcement then higher MPa has its benefits.
Spooky that you should mention the whole pultruded rods and pressure vessel stuff; as just yesterday I was reading about the Arkema's Elium resin which they claim good things for replacing epoxy resin. It has both lower inherent energy production as well as being a reversible and therefore recyclable resin, mainly with an eye on Wind Turbine blade production (which is going to lead to a lot of landfill in the next few years) but referenced both pressure vessels, concrete reinforcement and marine and auto production.

I know Arkema sponsor Lalou Racing and have been instrumental in both Mini Transat 650 and a couple of Multi 50's.

Do you JB have any thought as to the suitability of such resins in high end composite structures (where global rigidity is the aim), bearing in mind your thoughts on Basalt having such impressive MPa properties and whether when combined with PET foam that they would combined competitively against carbon/airex/epoxy type laminates?

Obtaining real world insight as opposed to Technical and Marketing spiel, is not that easy to come by........

 

JulianB

Super Anarchist
1,162
1,550
Sydney mostly
Spooky that you should mention the whole pultruded rods and pressure vessel stuff; as just yesterday I was reading about the Arkema's Elium resin which they claim good things for replacing epoxy resin. It has both lower inherent energy production as well as being a reversible and therefore recyclable resin, mainly with an eye on Wind Turbine blade production (which is going to lead to a lot of landfill in the next few years) but referenced both pressure vessels, concrete reinforcement and marine and auto production.

I know Arkema sponsor Lalou Racing and have been instrumental in both Mini Transat 650 and a couple of Multi 50's.

Do you JB have any thought as to the suitability of such resins in high end composite structures (where global rigidity is the aim), bearing in mind your thoughts on Basalt having such impressive MPa properties and whether when combined with PET foam that they would combined competitively against carbon/airex/epoxy type laminates?

Obtaining real world insight as opposed to Technical and Marketing spiel, is not that easy to come by........
So Chris Turner  (own's Ovington boats) and I have been talking about this at great length recently, also Pu water blown foams, and he ofcourse is going to build a PET/Basalt OK(dinghy), for himself to sail, and test the whole idea.   He is very aware of these resins and is doing long hand emperical testing, also getting into Life-cycle analysis, not just the boat, but entire campaigns etc etc.

I looked very hard at eco resins, before I started the 89er, but at present, using 1/2 the amount of fibre and consequentially 1/2 the resin was far more appealing, especially as it should give the 89er a very long life-span.

I have promised to give you my thoughts on the enviormental consequences of boat building.    I will do that, but things like clever mould design and silicon bags have allowed us to get our wastage on the existing 49er/29er in total to under 7%, so by that, both hulls as they come out of the moulds are about 60kgs, so adding it all up, over spray, gunk left in the can, foam off cuts, glass off cuts, the biggy is the gunwale triming and the waste, everything is less than, in most cases 4kgs.

I was part of the think-tank global talk fest a month ago, and some of the waste numbers quoted where horrific, waste and minimising useage, increasing longivity will be the focus of what we do going fwd!

and just as a teaser.   Hopefully we will do the final basalt/glass Friday, flip mid next week.

image.png

 

WCB

Super Anarchist
4,384
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Park City, UT
@JulianB I love seeing the pics of course, which is why I'm here, but I've been recently focused on the idea of sustainable boat building so your comments on that are an added benefit.  I'm working on starting up a boat building company in a different segment and I want to minimize waste and use as many earth friendlier products in the build as possible.  The plan is to use Bio-Resins not only for the boat production being more sustainable but also for the health of the staff. This was my motivation in asking about your approach.  The initial naval architect that we started working with had a similar sentiment earlier on.  Before we started looking at flax or basalt fibers, he mentioned that building with carbon would allow a lighter laminate, less resins, less layup time so lots of material saving benefits from an environmental and financial impact.  We are focused on the latter too as we want our new boats to be at a very competitive price point but I think it's possible to do both.  

 
Last edited by a moderator:

JulianB

Super Anarchist
1,162
1,550
Sydney mostly
OK, My thoughts on Environmental considerations.

Really, I have 3-4 key points and in order of importance.

#1           Longevity,  

This can most easily be summed up by put any number /∞ and it becomes a very small number.     ∞ (in this case)= lifespaqn

i)                    Therefor if you can double the life span of a boat, virtually regardless of it’s initial environmental cost then is environmental factor is ½ ved so you need to look at why people replace boats and you need to act early to arrest that if it’s simple

a.       Some people replace boats because they can, or because it’s cheaper to turn a boat over and get new sails etc etc, so therefore you need to make sure that there is an afterlife for your boat/sail/mast. (we are doing that now (2nd hand 29er going to Taiwan or re-builds in Brazil)  and the Opie dose it well)

b.       You need to jump on “fake news” because you’re competing in a space and other’s are always after your space.   If you don't jump on it, then the whole sport sufers as it becomes pervieved as "expensive".

ii)                   Good design also come into this, if you see a problem, and you can design your way out of it, you need to do that.   Often this is un-seen, and everything evolves, to think it dose not is absurd, even the Laser with all it’s rules and regs evolve.  

Politically, the biggy here is to keep your sailors informed, and only evolve at a rate that they can bear, some won’t like it, most will expect it as its inevitable especially in Hi-Perf. products.

iii)                 Don’t only think about the part you may produce, think about the means to produce those parts.    In 2008 we did 3 set of 49er tooling, one of those sets which I owe is in-active (for political reasons) so for most of that time, 2 hull moulds made most of the hulls, 13 years, 120 boats a year is 1500 odd boats (out 2 hull moulds.)    Deck moulds, the non-skid destroys them so we are looking at EVA non-skid, and have “clean-skin” deck moulds.    (we added additional sets of mould to meet surge demand, so they are now all cycled, but the original hull moulds are still in use) The Tasar hull mould is still going 25 years on, 29er moulds also last forever.   The silicon vacuum bags that Chris (Ovington) uses are inspirational!   (100+ clamps per bag)

#2           Recyclability

So wherever you can, you need to think about recycled products!   PET is the most obvious!   If we create a demand for a product (PET) that is going into landfill, then less will go into landfill and we create less of the other material (PVC) that would otherwise go into landfill, so in my mine that’s a double benefit.

The 49er presently uses recycled carbon material in its spreaders, and they (spreaders) tend to get bashed about and replaced, so we have devised a system where-as individual arms can be replaced rather than discard the whole spreader.

Mast is the same, so this is more in the longevity bracket, but we have also designed the mast so, it lasts many years of active service and in the event that it is no longer viable, it can also end up as 49er spreaders, or bits of a bicycle frame or a brakes for a 787/Teslar.

Revisiting PET, and this come into Design and Longevity, don’t assume that existing dogma is the only solution, be creative and look at the properties of the material and then match those properties with other materials that have a likeminded, (not necessarily conventional) benefits.

I have matched Basalt with PET, I have redesigned the process and more importantly the interface (between the extremely dense skin and the less dense core) and I am “giving it a go”.

I hope that many more people, have a go, it would be very sad if I was the only one, but I know that I am not, and we need to embrace the process and not stick our heads in the sand!

#3           Total “life cycle” cost

I interestingly watched the Bio-Resin video, and they used infusion.

I have done a lot of infusion, most of it has been done in China and mostly by women, it’s very very clean and very very repetable.   But in more than 90% of the facilities where I have seen this done, the level of disposables is horrific.

But not in all.   And I think that sensible infusion has a big future. 

But it needs well thought out silicon bags, like the ones Chris (Ovington) uses, it needs to use the folds as transfer mediums with recycled material into folds in the bags, rather than miles and miles of spiral tubing, it need multiple short length entry points and capture pots close to exits, and then, on bigger projects, with all the health benefits and the alike, it’s really worth pursuing.

But for one offs, you could easily reach 100% (by weight) of disposables and if you do that, you have to have a good hard look at yourself.

Alex, my son, is quite environmentally aware, so we have wherever we can, re-used things like perforated plastic and vacuum bags, plus we have modified the processes to reduce our dependence on things like Peel ply.   We can’t avoid it, but we can minimise it.    But we are probably at 20%.

As part of that, we have made decision that will cost us, say 15kgs (1.5%) of totally system weight, and the most obvious there is the outer 3.5mm P115 PET skin, we could build the boat 10-15kgs lighter, but it won’t last as long, we would not be able to use far light skins, and the idiot factor would be reduced to a point where 4 fat old bastards need to do a repair rather than enjoy a bottle of red.

29er and 49er wise, as I may have commented before are down around 7%.   29er foils are closed moulded and wastage is down around 0.05%, and we are already looking at going to Pu Eco water based blow cores and Basalt reinforcement.   49er foils (also closed mould) we have already made Flax reinforced foils and now looking at PET or Eco Pu blown foam again with Basalt reinforcements.

& #4       Material Science

Already spoken about Bio-Resins, they where in my mind (and in theirs as they are only using them in) what I would call auxiliary structures, will no doubt advance and come to the fore in a very short period of time, so Chris, again is very actively looking at them now, WRT the 49er and 29er.

(and highly probably the ILCA also, which uses about as much raw resin as the 29er)

Element6 (Thailand) what to look at infusing the 29ers, which you can already do, it's in the manual, quite a few 49er were made via infusion before discontinued due to the level of disposables and weight (they grow about 2 kgs).

Then you get into the PE products and as I commented previously, I have a bit of PE, on my desk in front of me, which was Roto-moulded, which is impressive, and my guess is in 5 years, we will have to be looking at this.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Guys and Gals, I could expand on this to ∞, if needed, but it's all about having the will.

The big issue in developed countries, is the add-on costs, mean's that infusion will probably make a huge come back, and that is probably a good thing!

 I think that when PE's advance another inevitable round, then we will again find thermo plastics in our Christmas stockings, and be taken far more seriously.

This is a photo taken in 1995, Jonathan McKee & Chris Lanzinger are sailing, it's a very early 49er, made to mimic PE production.

image.png

If you look closely, the whole mast/rig is sitting in a alloy space frame, so you could completely un-bolt the rig from the hull and maintain rig tension.

Today that would be a Carbon or Basalt single moulded frame (bit like a bicycle) and is very fesiable, this hull remain a test bed for 2 years before being lotteried off and it then sailed for another 10.

                   jB

 

Boink

Super Anarchist
1,589
779
OK, My thoughts on Environmental considerations.

Really, I have 3-4 key points and in order of importance.

#1           Longevity,  

This can most easily be summed up by put any number /∞ and it becomes a very small number.     ∞ (in this case)= lifespaqn

i)                    Therefor if you can double the life span of a boat, virtually regardless of it’s initial environmental cost then is environmental factor is ½ ved so you need to look at why people replace boats and you need to act early to arrest that if it’s simple

a.       Some people replace boats because they can, or because it’s cheaper to turn a boat over and get new sails etc etc, so therefore you need to make sure that there is an afterlife for your boat/sail/mast. (we are doing that now (2nd hand 29er going to Taiwan or re-builds in Brazil)  and the Opie dose it well)

b.       You need to jump on “fake news” because you’re competing in a space and other’s are always after your space.   If you don't jump on it, then the whole sport sufers as it becomes pervieved as "expensive".

ii)                   Good design also come into this, if you see a problem, and you can design your way out of it, you need to do that.   Often this is un-seen, and everything evolves, to think it dose not is absurd, even the Laser with all it’s rules and regs evolve.  

Politically, the biggy here is to keep your sailors informed, and only evolve at a rate that they can bear, some won’t like it, most will expect it as its inevitable especially in Hi-Perf. products.

iii)                 Don’t only think about the part you may produce, think about the means to produce those parts.    In 2008 we did 3 set of 49er tooling, one of those sets which I owe is in-active (for political reasons) so for most of that time, 2 hull moulds made most of the hulls, 13 years, 120 boats a year is 1500 odd boats (out 2 hull moulds.)    Deck moulds, the non-skid destroys them so we are looking at EVA non-skid, and have “clean-skin” deck moulds.    (we added additional sets of mould to meet surge demand, so they are now all cycled, but the original hull moulds are still in use) The Tasar hull mould is still going 25 years on, 29er moulds also last forever.   The silicon vacuum bags that Chris (Ovington) uses are inspirational!   (100+ clamps per bag)

#2           Recyclability

So wherever you can, you need to think about recycled products!   PET is the most obvious!   If we create a demand for a product (PET) that is going into landfill, then less will go into landfill and we create less of the other material (PVC) that would otherwise go into landfill, so in my mine that’s a double benefit.

The 49er presently uses recycled carbon material in its spreaders, and they (spreaders) tend to get bashed about and replaced, so we have devised a system where-as individual arms can be replaced rather than discard the whole spreader.

Mast is the same, so this is more in the longevity bracket, but we have also designed the mast so, it lasts many years of active service and in the event that it is no longer viable, it can also end up as 49er spreaders, or bits of a bicycle frame or a brakes for a 787/Teslar.

Revisiting PET, and this come into Design and Longevity, don’t assume that existing dogma is the only solution, be creative and look at the properties of the material and then match those properties with other materials that have a likeminded, (not necessarily conventional) benefits.

I have matched Basalt with PET, I have redesigned the process and more importantly the interface (between the extremely dense skin and the less dense core) and I am “giving it a go”.

I hope that many more people, have a go, it would be very sad if I was the only one, but I know that I am not, and we need to embrace the process and not stick our heads in the sand!

#3           Total “life cycle” cost

I interestingly watched the Bio-Resin video, and they used infusion.

I have done a lot of infusion, most of it has been done in China and mostly by women, it’s very very clean and very very repetable.   But in more than 90% of the facilities where I have seen this done, the level of disposables is horrific.

But not in all.   And I think that sensible infusion has a big future. 

But it needs well thought out silicon bags, like the ones Chris (Ovington) uses, it needs to use the folds as transfer mediums with recycled material into folds in the bags, rather than miles and miles of spiral tubing, it need multiple short length entry points and capture pots close to exits, and then, on bigger projects, with all the health benefits and the alike, it’s really worth pursuing.

But for one offs, you could easily reach 100% (by weight) of disposables and if you do that, you have to have a good hard look at yourself.

Alex, my son, is quite environmentally aware, so we have wherever we can, re-used things like perforated plastic and vacuum bags, plus we have modified the processes to reduce our dependence on things like Peel ply.   We can’t avoid it, but we can minimise it.    But we are probably at 20%.

As part of that, we have made decision that will cost us, say 15kgs (1.5%) of totally system weight, and the most obvious there is the outer 3.5mm P115 PET skin, we could build the boat 10-15kgs lighter, but it won’t last as long, we would not be able to use far light skins, and the idiot factor would be reduced to a point where 4 fat old bastards need to do a repair rather than enjoy a bottle of red.

29er and 49er wise, as I may have commented before are down around 7%.   29er foils are closed moulded and wastage is down around 0.05%, and we are already looking at going to Pu Eco water based blow cores and Basalt reinforcement.   49er foils (also closed mould) we have already made Flax reinforced foils and now looking at PET or Eco Pu blown foam again with Basalt reinforcements.

& #4       Material Science

Already spoken about Bio-Resins, they where in my mind (and in theirs as they are only using them in) what I would call auxiliary structures, will no doubt advance and come to the fore in a very short period of time, so Chris, again is very actively looking at them now, WRT the 49er and 29er.

(and highly probably the ILCA also, which uses about as much raw resin as the 29er)

Element6 (Thailand) what to look at infusing the 29ers, which you can already do, it's in the manual, quite a few 49er were made via infusion before discontinued due to the level of disposables and weight (they grow about 2 kgs).

Then you get into the PE products and as I commented previously, I have a bit of PE, on my desk in front of me, which was Roto-moulded, which is impressive, and my guess is in 5 years, we will have to be looking at this.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Guys and Gals, I could expand on this to ∞, if needed, but it's all about having the will.

The big issue in developed countries, is the add-on costs, mean's that infusion will probably make a huge come back, and that is probably a good thing!

 I think that when PE's advance another inevitable round, then we will again find thermo plastics in our Christmas stockings, and be taken far more seriously.

This is a photo taken in 1995, Jonathan McKee & Chris Lanzinger are sailing, it's a very early 49er, made to mimic PE production.

View attachment 477792

If you look closely, the whole mast/rig is sitting in a alloy space frame, so you could completely un-bolt the rig from the hull and maintain rig tension.

Today that would be a Carbon or Basalt single moulded frame (bit like a bicycle) and is very fesiable, this hull remain a test bed for 2 years before being lotteried off and it then sailed for another 10.

                   jB
Seriously JB a massive thanks for putting all this down, no mean undertaking to just punch all that out on the keyboard, but more importantly to raise awareness from both producers and consumers perspective of what could be done to actually make our sport somewhat more sustainable than the absurd levels of eco-friendly credit it has for too long claimed or hoped to be associated with.

I realise that whilst inertia is also largely at play, by continuing to produce sailboats in unsustainable ways and with large amounts of waste by-product, it is also that frankly dollars talk, and waste management is not framed in cradle to grave terms. Surfing with the production of pure plastic waste and wetsuits is the other standout phony here, of an industry trading on less than green credentials, but I am sure there are many more.

So in the interest of facilitating that sailing concentrates on sorting it's own house first, I appeal to @Editor to consider posting this knowledge of yours on the front page so that awareness within both the industry and the wider audience of customers, users and whatever can help accelerate such technology to become the norm and not an outlier.

Only with cool projects like yours will other get the blinkers off as to how high performance can be environmentally responsible, or at least much better than the current norm.

 

JulianB

Super Anarchist
1,162
1,550
Sydney mostly
Thanks for the comments, I consider it simply logical.

The 9er group has recent developed "guiding principals" for how it intends to go fwd WRT enviormental, let me review it, and if I can I will share that.

Finally couple of requests re the early 49er and the space frame, I think the following shot was taken the next day, skipper is Ander Lewander and crew is Peter Mickos, both Swedish, more than anyone Anders developed the cuff luff, though here with a wishbone, it developed at a freighting pace.

I think this Wishbone phote was taken 3rd of 4th Jan 1995 image.png

This one was taken Jan 7th 1995, both McKee brothers.

image.jpeg

And this one has Dad sailing in Balmoral June 95 in a whole new hull/wings with the cuff.

image.jpeg

Evoloution is inevitable!    Very stupid to try and fight it!

 

JulianB

Super Anarchist
1,162
1,550
Sydney mostly
Seriously JB a massive thanks for putting all this down, no mean undertaking to just punch all that out on the keyboard, but more importantly to raise awareness from both producers and consumers perspective of what could be done to actually make our sport somewhat more sustainable than the absurd levels of eco-friendly credit it has for too long claimed or hoped to be associated with.

I realise that whilst inertia is also largely at play, by continuing to produce sailboats in unsustainable ways and with large amounts of waste by-product, it is also that frankly dollars talk, and waste management is not framed in cradle to grave terms. Surfing with the production of pure plastic waste and wetsuits is the other standout phony here, of an industry trading on less than green credentials, but I am sure there are many more.

So in the interest of facilitating that sailing concentrates on sorting it's own house first, I appeal to @Editor to consider posting this knowledge of yours on the front page so that awareness within both the industry and the wider audience of customers, users and whatever can help accelerate such technology to become the norm and not an outlier.

Only with cool projects like yours will other get the blinkers off as to how high performance can be environmentally responsible, or at least much better than the current norm.
Hi Boink, all is not lost, Julia who drives the 9er Alliance is very green focused.

But above you spoke of wesuits and pure plastic, this morning at the coffeeshop, Michelle, who is a medical scientist heavily involved in Covid research is also heavily into free-diving and scuba and was telling us that all her new wetsuits are PET, then Alex pipped up and all his board shorts and surfing apparel at PET.    Mark Paul (maried to Sarah Kenny who is a VP of WS) has in the past helped me with recycled materials to use in breather cloths along with finding after-life's for FRP and Mylar products, with a fair amount of success.  

If all of this is just happening at our coffeeshop each morning, imagine with a bit of will what can happen everywhere!

I am hopeful.

 

Boink

Super Anarchist
1,589
779
Hi Boink, all is not lost, Julia who drives the 9er Alliance is very green focused.

But above you spoke of wesuits and pure plastic, this morning at the coffeeshop, Michelle, who is a medical scientist heavily involved in Covid research is also heavily into free-diving and scuba and was telling us that all her new wetsuits are PET, then Alex pipped up and all his board shorts and surfing apparel at PET.    Mark Paul (maried to Sarah Kenny who is a VP of WS) has in the past helped me with recycled materials to use in breather cloths along with finding after-life's for FRP and Mylar products, with a fair amount of success.  

If all of this is just happening at our coffeeshop each morning, imagine with a bit of will what can happen everywhere!

I am hopeful.
As Paul Kelly says - From Little things...... Big things Grow......

Well, again I have come here and learnt stuff - good stuff, positive stuff.......

Was only watching ABC's Australian Story last night about Prof. Veena Sahajwalla's Green Steel Initiative from UNSW and her move into Recycled ceramics for high end building products for Mirvac.......

There certainly is hope but it needs awareness (like the mythical front page.....) To achieve scale and inertia for this to be automatic and commercially ubiquitous.

Elsewhere though, I was depressed to read at the forecasted amount of plastic trapped in the 5 gyres of the oceans....... 89 million tonnes if I recall correctly by 2030.

So I cannot decide if the glass is half full, half empty or cracked and leaking fast.

I get that Life is not binary - Yes/No - Good/Bad or other simplified media concoctions. It's complex and messy.

We are experiencing death by a thousand cuts. We may learn to work around climate change, but will the environment be so irreparably toxic and degraded as to naturally curb life?

These are not concerns for the uber wealthy, but some of them sail, so it's an opportunity to wedge their conscience in a more direct and meaningful manner.

Hence the desire for you to spread the word about performance composites that are a whole lot more sustainable, but not lacking in stiffness, longevity or lightness. I can forsee Basalt/PET/Bio resin dashboards in high end sports cars. Or is that injection moulded? More Ferrari & McLaren than Topper sailboat. Then,who knows where.......?

Maybe your Julia could adapt 9er class rules? 

To only allow competitors to replace their legacy sailing kit with this new style of  technical clothing ( e.g. those PET wetsuits)....... Call it a Benevolent Dictatorship! 

 

JulianB

Super Anarchist
1,162
1,550
Sydney mostly
I was wondering if you have put some PET in a bucket and let it sit to see how waterproof it is?
The rule of thumb, once you go past P65/H65 which is the point at which 99% of these foams cross-link trhe wtare absorbion rates are a) minimal and b) similar.

Need to point out that Polystrene cross links at a far lower kgs/m³ (H or P), but whether they are PET, PVC or hybrids link CoreCell, once you exceed P-H 65 it's ceases to be a issue, and as you go upwards toward P115, even less so.

But the answer to your queastion is no I have not, and I doubt I will bother, because I am very sure of the answer!

                    jB

 

JulianB

Super Anarchist
1,162
1,550
Sydney mostly
As Paul Kelly says - From Little things...... Big things Grow......

Well, again I have come here and learnt stuff - good stuff, positive stuff.......

Was only watching ABC's Australian Story last night about Prof. Veena Sahajwalla's Green Steel Initiative from UNSW and her move into Recycled ceramics for high end building products for Mirvac.......

There certainly is hope but it needs awareness (like the mythical front page.....) To achieve scale and inertia for this to be automatic and commercially ubiquitous.

Elsewhere though, I was depressed to read at the forecasted amount of plastic trapped in the 5 gyres of the oceans....... 89 million tonnes if I recall correctly by 2030.

So I cannot decide if the glass is half full, half empty or cracked and leaking fast.

I get that Life is not binary - Yes/No - Good/Bad or other simplified media concoctions. It's complex and messy.

We are experiencing death by a thousand cuts. We may learn to work around climate change, but will the environment be so irreparably toxic and degraded as to naturally curb life?

These are not concerns for the uber wealthy, but some of them sail, so it's an opportunity to wedge their conscience in a more direct and meaningful manner.

Hence the desire for you to spread the word about performance composites that are a whole lot more sustainable, but not lacking in stiffness, longevity or lightness. I can forsee Basalt/PET/Bio resin dashboards in high end sports cars. Or is that injection moulded? More Ferrari & McLaren than Topper sailboat. Then,who knows where.......?

Maybe your Julia could adapt 9er class rules? 

To only allow competitors to replace their legacy sailing kit with this new style of  technical clothing ( e.g. those PET wetsuits)....... Call it a Benevolent Dictatorship! 
I think Van Gogh said it before Paul Kelly, but it was something like "great things come form a lot of little things put together".

Regardless, if we all try and if we refrain from “it’s too hard” then we will get somewhere, hopefully fast enough.

Give me a week and I will post the 9er “guiding principles” doc, it’s quite refreshing and we are right now, setting up a zoom conf with WS to fast track through some longevity possibilities in keeping with the “guiding principles” doc.

Few have asked about 49er and 29er foils and moulds.

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This is possibly the best engineered set of 29er foils moulds in the world.   Un-fortunately due to political reasons, they have been locked in a container in Qingdao China for over 2 years, but there is a good chance they will start to be used shortly

They 40mm thick alloy, weigh a far bit, milled to the std file, yad yad yad.

The issue WRT blowing cores (and generating “biscuits”) or milling cores (and generating “blanks”) is that even with the best practices, when you mill anything be it PVC, PET or Polystyrene, more than ½ ends up on the floor.

Then there is a hot blow process, where you layup in epoxy, sure some tricks to get material around the LE, but then put a shot of Epoxy blow foam in and close the mould allowing the foam to expand, and you have a dedicated “blow hole” right size so you get to the right pressure inside the mould.    Dose a great job, think the resin system is Sicomen (French).

The other option is to pre-blown biscuits, then you can use Pu Eco foams, and the trick is to use oven bake paper, loves the heat and nothing sticks to it, and it’s re-useable.

Big advantage of this is you can per dictate the density of the core, you can be very confident about the integrity of the core, and can add spars if you wish, and the actual manufacturing process can involve vacuum, which completely eliminates voids.

But the big up-side of blown cores, in closed moulds is virtually no waste, you end up cleaning up grams of gelcoat and that’s about it, plus the products are super repeatable and simple to make.

WRT the 89er we will be using HD epoxy milling board milled moulds (female), for all the foils.    Very likely we will be making  multiple foils, out of the one set of moulds,

We will, after waxing, lay in a laminate (dry), then cover that with “oven bake” and blow Pu cores.

Let them stand for a week, probably use 160kgs/m³ material, ends up about 180kgs/m³.

Then light sand, and straight into the laminate, and vacuum.

The DSS, we may cut the core and generate a W spar, but still, it all happens in one hit.

(DSS is far more highly loaded than the fin, so need to be diligent)

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Re the actual boat, it was a manic 10 days, I had to get some mast to Italy, airfreight, but they got off-loaded so they are still at the airport, then I had to drive to Tweed Heads (8hrs each way) and back with my new alloy trailer, so we really only got back into it today.   The current plan is to spend tomorrow detailing the 3.5mm, including a final re-fair and slurry.

Monday, Dad’s army has been called up and we will basalt/s-glass the skin and do the full catastrophe, so peel-ply, perforated plastic, transfer medium and bag/vacuum.

By the end of the week, flip it, and into the inside.

As a side note, when we de-bagged, the hull yesterday, we saved everything, the vacuum bag, all the perforated plastic and transfer medium.     We will use a new bag for the final pull, but everything else get s 2nd or in some cases, 3rd, 4th or 5th use.

The old bag will get re-used pulling down panels or the winglets, whichever comes first!    As will the perforated plastic.  I doubt we will get a 3rd use from the transfer medium, but it’s paper and it’s had a very productive life!

 

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